The Most Powerful Force Users in the Galaxy (CANON)

[Ghisallo]

Beni I will just say the following...

 

First I agree atm that a Canon only thread is premature because atm we don't have much canon on certain key characters. However it is no less odd that having a debate based on a Canon that was muteable over time.

 

That said to come into a thread with specific rules regarding posting and then to post information saying "I don't give a damn about the rules so here I go..." is pretty silly

 

I mean if someone came into the thread you started and said "I think using a Legends is silly. If it is not Canon it is no better than Fan Fiction" you would likely go at that person quite fervently for it because you set the rules in your thread. Oh wait you DID go after someone. That person created this thread simply to have the debate he wanted to have...a debate based on Canon.

 

Coming to this thread and doing what you are doing is pretty hypocritical because these are the very things you objected to in your thread. I defended you there, I said "Beni's thread, Beni's rules, this all was considered Canon once so for now it is certainly worthy of debate." Even if I did voice that I disagreed with some of your interpretations I still defended the over all validity of your thread's premise. Now I feel like an *** now for that defense because you are doing the same thing he did.

 

Hell I would argue he took a higher road... he could have just kept on going with that derail...instead he said "okay forget this, I'll just make a thread using current canon. Thing is current Canon means many of the stories you like and are invested in are GONE. Instead of just leaving this thread alone though you have to come along, throw in non-canon statements and when called on it say...

 

I don't give a bantha's behind about the context of this thread. I think this "Canon only" rule is a joke that evidently promotes willful ignorance of the facts and illogical conclusions...

 

Sorry but simply because something is retconned and removed does NOT make things illogical...you are trying to give your personal preference an unassailable pedestal to stand upon by painting anything that does not fall under your rules as illogical. In essence on this thread you are pulling a DarthAnt. Well done sir, you have acted here in a manner no better than a person who I have seen called one of the most notorious trolls on these forums.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Beniboybling]

Pal, I only said that because you appeared to be applying the rules of this thread as a universal standard, to quote:

All both of you are doing is saying...

 

"okay we believe she is a force user so we will now interpret statements and actions accordingly"

And yet, I only said Talzin to be a Force User in the contexts of my thread where Legends material is regarded to be valid. Nor do I respect the rules of this thread, I just came here to clarify for your benefit.

 

So I fail to see under what circumstances I can be accused of making assumptions.

 

But when are you going to acknowledge that my point was backed up first and foremost by Canon sources? The Legends material was only there to reinforce the fact that it was there intentions all along, for anybody who still cares.

 

P.S. I'm already explained in-depth why I think the Canon only rule illogical, and even tried to press for minor changes to fix it, they were ignored, your taking an incomplete image of Star Wars and trying to draw absolute conclusions from it, any list created under such circumstances will be inadequate, and I can assure you I'm not alone in these views.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Ghisallo]

When I respond to a thread I am responding to THAT thread... Additionally how am I applying a Universal rule when I say

LEGENDS is irrelevant in this thread.... COMPLETELY. I know the essential destruction of the EU, in terms of having any direct influence on Canon, annoys you to no end but it is what it is.

 

and

 

...this is a CANON thread...

 

As such the Book of Sith does NOT exist for the purposes of this thread...because the current Canon.

?????

 

Also if you remember the only issue I had regarding Talzin in your thread, are things like "what is Ichor?" and "should feats that require ritual and or equipment be weighed as heavily as feats that are solely of the force user."

 

My only contention here is that without the rest of the EU the actual nature of her power is not as clear cut...again...only regarding a Canon only debate.

 

That said you can feel it is illogical to do something using only Canon to compare Canon characters until you are blue in the face. Imo there are indeed some logical issues...however there are pretty much an equal number of logical issues using the EU, especially with the Holicron now being gone.

 

That doesn't give me the right to go to a thread using the rules here or on your thread, ignore them and then when called on it say "well I find these rules limiting and illogical so never mind em."

 

As for your point about being backed up by canon sources you noted a quote that can be dismissed as a simple retort as easily as you dismiss Windu's comment that "magick is a lie". I will include a quote here by Rhyltran (two birds with one stone)

 

In Star Wars we know the force exists. This is a fact that the movies prove to us. It is a fact that it exists in the universe. Magic is not. Spirit Ichor is not. Talzin calls her ability to construct and deconstruct matter is Spirit Ichor. You ask what is Spirit Ichor? My answer is it's the force. You claim we don't know for sure. Your claim is irrelevant. Your argument is the same argument theists use against atheists.

 

You claim Spirit Ichor is not the force. It's up to you to prove that this is the case. If you say "We don't know for sure" and we do know the force is a fact in Star Wars mythology and it's best to assume it is the force.

 

The last bit is the key bit...he gets the atheist and the theist confused in his analogy. I am the atheist. I am saying the paradigm has changed. As such we now need to not make assumptions or take things on faith that is based upon the old paradigm. Is it POSSIBLE that what you both say is correct? Of course, I will not say it is impossible. All I say is that taking it on faith because that is the way it was. This is actually my main issue with having a Canon only discussion NOW...it forces us to ask questions we would not have had to ask before.

 

That doesn't change a key fact though. You brought your rules to this thread (using non-canon) sources and in defense made the flippant "bantha" comment in support. Hell that is how you opened you post...so tbh I think you are being disingenuous as all hell when you say that now you thought I was talking universally.

[Beniboybling]

Lol I feel like I'm talking to a wall, think what you will, and dismiss Mother Talzin's claim to be a Force User if you like, I provided the info, and never had any intention of having a discussion in the contexts of this thread, so see ya.

[Rhyltran]

When I respond to a thread I am responding to THAT thread... Additionally how am I applying a Universal rule when I say

 

 

and

 

 

?????

 

Also if you remember the only issue I had regarding Talzin in your thread, are things like "what is Ichor?" and "should feats that require ritual and or equipment be weighed as heavily as feats that are solely of the force user."

 

My only contention here is that without the rest of the EU the actual nature of her power is not as clear cut...again...only regarding a Canon only debate.

 

That said you can feel it is illogical to do something using only Canon to compare Canon characters until you are blue in the face. Imo there are indeed some logical issues...however there are pretty much an equal number of logical issues using the EU, especially with the Holicron now being gone.

 

That doesn't give me the right to go to a thread using the rules here or on your thread, ignore them and then when called on it say "well I find these rules limiting and illogical so never mind em."

 

As for your point about being backed up by canon sources you noted a quote that can be dismissed as a simple retort as easily as you dismiss Windu's comment that "magick is a lie". I will include a quote here by Rhyltran (two birds with one stone)

 

 

 

The last bit is the key bit...he gets the atheist and the theist confused in his analogy. I am the atheist. I am saying the paradigm has changed. As such we now need to not make assumptions or take things on faith that is based upon the old paradigm. Is it POSSIBLE that what you both say is correct? Of course, I will not say it is impossible. All I say is that taking it on faith because that is the way it was. This is actually my main issue with having a Canon only discussion NOW...it forces us to ask questions we would not have had to ask before.

 

That doesn't change a key fact though. You brought your rules to this thread (using non-canon) sources and in defense made the flippant "bantha" comment in support. Hell that is how you opened you post...so tbh I think you are being disingenuous as all hell when you say that now you thought I was talking universally.

 

No. I am not getting the two confused. Ichor is the force until proven otherwise. In real life if we discover a species of animal that is unlike any other species of animal we won't be on the fence on whether it was created via evolution or just simply plopped into existence. We'd assume it evolved and became the way it was through evolution.

 

In Star Wars. The force is science. It can be understood, measured, and quantified. There is no debating the force. Talzin claims that she does magic. There is absolute no proof that what she's doing is actually magic. She's the only one to claim it's magic. If we were scientists in the Star Wars universe we would have, until new data comes up to suggest otherwise, no reason believing that what she's doing is not using the force. Trying to argue that it may not be the force is simply hypothesizing.

 

Remove theory and stick with the fact. What you are doing is not conductive to a discussion and you're ignoring the rules of debate. You claim Spirit Ichor may not be the force. You have nothing to base this off of. The idea that it isn't the force is purely conjecture which is thrown out in any intelligent debate. I don't care for conjecture. Show me the facts.

 

Facts:

 

Talzin admitted in Canon that she is a force wielder.

The force can allow one, if they're powerful enough, to do anything.

Talzin uses the force.

She can use her powers anywhere.

She fought Windu not with Spirit Ichor but with swordplay.

She fought Sidious, Dooku, and Grievous not with Spirit ichor but her green lightning/force abilities.

She claims she gets her power from the Winged Goddess and the Fanged Bat who are both dead by the time we see her and she's completely unaware of this. Which means their deaths had no affect on her powers and her knowledge if so primitive she was unaware that they even died.

The Fanged Bat and Winged Goddess as she calls them are the son and daughter. Living aspects of the Light and Dark Side of the force.

She drew on the power of the light and dark side of the force.

Spirit Ichor comes from "channeling" the power of the "winged goddess." So she's drawing on an aspect of the light side of the force.

She still has this power when said aspect dies. When they died their power went with them. Ergo she's drawing on the power of the light side of the force.

 

Literally ALL evidence points to her using the force. Weren't you the one who told me to use inference when it comes to Windu? To look at the whole scene? That to take in his personality, his goals, etc to come to the conclusion he was drawing Talzin away? Why are you breaking your own rules here? If we infer the nature of Talzin based on the data we have then it's obvious that she's drawing on the force.

 

The only thing that's being taken on faith is that it may not be the force. We have enough to go on to present a theory based on the data we have provided to make the claim that Talzin uses the force. That Spirit Ichor is an aspect of the force. We have enough information. The facts are there.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Kilthares]

The Skywalkers are the most powerful, jesus folks how many times does this need to be stated "word of god"?

The Skywalkers?!

[Ghisallo]

Oh wanted to mentioned one other thing. The stuff in the books is NOT that important. It does not matter if we do not have the why sometimes... all that matters is that the screen play says...

 

...PALPATINE is able to use the Force to slam MACE against the wall, but he recovers before the Chancellor can cut him down....In the heat of battle, MACE cuts the window behind the Chancellor's desk, and it crashes

away. MACE is forced out onto the ledge, which is twenty stories up. They fight over the precipice. ANAKIN arrives to see PALPATINE and MACE fighting....They stop as MACE forces PALPATINE to drop his sword. PALPATINE and MACE start yelling at each other...raises his hands, and lightning bolts shoot out. They are blocked by MACE's lightsaber. PALPATINE is pushed back against the window sill...MACE pushes PALPATINE out to the edge of the ledge. As the Jedi moves closer, the bolts from Palpatine's hands begin to arch back on him. The Chancellor's face begins to twist and distort. His eyes become yellow as he struggles to intensify his powers...Just as MACE is about to slash PALPATINE, ANAKIN steps in and cuts off the Jedi's

hand holding the lightsaber. As MACE stares at ANAKIN in shock, PALPATINE springs to life.

The full force of Palpatine's powerful Bolts blasts MACE. He attempts to deflect them with his one good hand, but the force is too great. As blue rays engulf his body, he is flung out the window and falls twenty stories to his death.

 

It doesn't matter why Mace is a better warrior and would have killed Palpatine if not for Anakin's interference.... the screenplay tells us that this is the simply they way it was and in the end that is all that matters.

[Ghisallo]

The Skywalkers?!

 

Leia is technically a Skywalker and any children she will have will be of the same legacy

[Beniboybling]

Oh wanted to mentioned one other thing. The stuff in the books is NOT that important. It does not matter if we do not have the why sometimes... all that matters is that the screen play says...

 

It doesn't matter why Mace is a better warrior and would have killed Palpatine if not for Anakin's interference.... the screenplay tells us that this is the simply they way it was and in the end that is all that matters.

The screenplay is just wording of what we see on screen, it offers no further depth as it is designed merely as a guide for what to visually display. And the books were endorsed and edited by Lucas himself, so yes they are that important.

 

And it does matter if your interested in more than the what i.e. Windu > Sidious, but the why.

[Ghisallo]

The screenplay is just wording of what we see on screen, it offers no further depth as it is designed merely as a guide for what to visually display. And the books were endorsed and edited by Lucas himself, so yes they are that important.

 

And it does matter if your interested in more than the what i.e. Windu > Sidious, but the why.

 

BS they were edited by Lucas... they were not. Their was a specific Canon rule from Chee that stated that if the Book contradicted something in the movie then the movie was the final word. Here is what the editor of Lucas books had to say on it...

 

Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time

 

Working closely does NOT mean editor. Editor is a specific job withe a specific skill set.

 

Also the point of a screenplay, if you have ever taken classes regarding them, is to ALSO provide the actors with the "motivation". Should the actor have a little glint in his eye because he is "conning" his opponent or should his eyes be open a smidge to show he is "playing possum" etc. Should he be in real pain or with his back to his opponent as he grunts he shows a little smile? You say "forces" so the actors KNOW that one person had no choice. You say "struggles" so the actor in question knows it is HARD.

 

The problem is you are looking at the "why" being missing because the EU is now gone and Vaapad while mentioned in the novelization is born of the EU. You want that back. If the EU never existed, nor that term we would simply have "Mace = better warrior than Sidious." That is all you need. UNLESS it is key to the plot when you watch two warriors face off it DOESN'T MATTER what style/power they used, it is the victor that matters. You simply can't turn the EU off in your mind and are fighting like the dickens to force it in here.

 

The fact remains however that the screenplays give you everything you need in terms of Canon to make comparisons between characters in those movies. You may not like it because it means the world you have invested you imagination in has been largely wiped clean and I respect and even to a degree share that. BUT whats done is done...time to man up and move on.

 

That said I still grant you the Canon one is a little premature because atm there simply isn't enough for certain characters imo.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Beniboybling]

BS they were edited by Lucas... they were not. Their was a specific Canon rule from Chee that stated that if the Book contradicted something in the movie then the movie was the final word. Here is what the editor of Lucas books had to say on it...

Though I did not personally watch him do it, I received from LFL a Word document of Revenge of the Sith with Mr Lucas' edits, which was distinct from the edits I'd already gotten from Sue Rostoni and Howard Roffman and the rest of the LFL crew, and this document was edited in such a detailed fashion that even individual words had been struck off and his preferred replacements inserted, as well as some passages wholly excised and some dialogue replaced with the dialogue from the screenplay. If that's not line-editing, I don't know what is.

 

What's in that book is there because Mr. Lucas wanted it to be there. What's not in that book is not there because Mr. Lucas wanted it gone.

 

Period.

 

--Matthew Stover, author of ROTS novelisation, Jedi Council Forums

And given what the "editor of LucasBooks" has to say about it, I assume this is what "working closely" with the authors on each novelisation entails. That and DelRey, who work closely with LucasBooks, have claimed that they are canon.

 

But despite all that, yes the books are totally unimportant.

Also the point of a screenplay, if you have ever taken classes regarding them, is to ALSO provide the actors with the "motivation". Should the actor have a little glint in his eye because he is "conning" his opponent or should his eyes be open a smidge to show he is "playing possum" etc.

So you didn't notice the change between "I'm too weak" and "UNLIMITED POWAH!!!!" - that's like a contradiction by the dictionary definition, it was obvious at least to me that the whole weak and vulnerable persona was an act.

 

I mean he was layering it on so thick it was bordering on cliche.

The problem is you are looking at the "why" being missing because the EU is now gone and Vaapad while mentioned in the novelization is born of the EU. You want that back.

 

...

 

You simply can't turn the EU off in your mind and are fighting like the dickens to force it in here.

 

...

 

You may not like it because it means the world you have invested you imagination in has been largely wiped clean and I respect and even to a degree share that. BUT whats done is done...time to man up and move on.

Lawls.

 

You really don't get it do you? You realise that the first Mace Windu novel will mention Vaapad? That the first novel or sourcebook on lightsaber forms will mention Vaapad? Don't believe me? Go and actually read one of these new "canon" novels and observe how everything aside from the central plot is just a regurgitation from the EU.

 

Nothing has changed.

 

If you think the EU is dead you've got your head in the sand, that or your wearing a tin foil hat, or both. Disney has told me the facts, so I'm not inclined to listen to what the conspiracy theorists and doomsdayers have to say about it.

 

P.S. And please stop with the sympathy, its patronising, because you have no idea what your talking about.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Ghisallo]

First...okay he sent edits...BUT what edits? Since the Canon rules specifically stated that the movie Screenplay takes precedence over even the Novelizations for that to matter we need to know what Lucas edited for that to be relevant...

 

Next..

 

hh yes... That little line. Never did a Darth show bravado or arrogance when the tables were turned by fate or interference.

 

The fact is this. When you read the novels and when you read the screen play the "what occurs" are basically the same... The only thing the Novelization adds to is the "why".

 

Why do you think...in the EU based threads people would say..." In <nsert EU title here>, we see Bob doing something far more powerful than Joe ever did. As the movie does not specifically state that Joe is as strong or more powerful than Bob, Bob must be more powerful."

 

We see that because without the EU we have to take take the scene at face value. We can't just assume Bob let Joe win. That assumption is based on also comparing the EU. And AGAIN the EU is basically in stasis, hyper-sleep, whatever.

 

When it comes to Canon, you sir are the one with your head in the sand. I say as Canon for a specific reason. A book is NOT Canon, in and of itself, if it is only acknowledged as a source from which a screenwriter, new author etc., can cherry pick elements IF THEY CHOOSE to. Until that old element is incorporated in the new Canon its does not exist for Canon purposes....this is how Canon works.

 

So in terms of Canon one of my favorite Star Wars characters ever, Talon Karrde, does NOT exist until he is introduced into the new Canon. Even if he is introduced he may not be a guy who leads a rather vast smuggling network with scores of ships at his disposal. He may simply be a one man show like Han Solo, he could be a "former smuggle" now officer in the rebel alliance with little back story. Maybe they just pay homage to him by having a ship named "The Wild Karrde?" Regardless he is gone until he is reintroduced into the new Canon. Hell they can introduce Thrawn and Mara Jade and unless they also Introduce Karrde, Karrde is not Canon.

 

If this was not the case there you would not say things like... this from Del Ray..

 

In addition, it has been confirmed that content from the Star Wars Legends line will always be available to the writers of current Star Wars media for inspiration and usage..

(key word inspiration)

 

And

 

It is unknown whether any of the Star Wars Legends tales (such as stories that occur before or during the films) will be retroactively considered canon under the unified banner.

 

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/04/disney-and-del-rey-announce-new-qunified-canonq-for-upcoming-star-wars-expanded-universe-novels#

 

The last part is the most important. It literally says that for somethin in legends to enter the new canon (beyond what is specifically noted) it will have to be retroactively added and they have NO clue whether or not that will ever happen and if so with what.

 

From Lucasfilms...

 

. In order to give maximum creative freedom to the filmmakers and also preserve an element of surprise and discovery for the audience, Star Wars Episodes VII-IX will not tell the same story told in the post-Return of the Jedi Expanded Universe. While the universe that readers knew is changing, it is not being discarded. Creators of new Star Wars entertainment have full access to the rich content of the Expanded Universe.

 

So again if they want to they can be added BUT unless the new writers and creators add it it does not exist because "the universe that readers new is changing."

 

You are of course welcome to deny the statements made by Disney, Lucasfilms and Del Ray because you are not willing to open your mind to a new universe and acknowledge that many if not all of the EU stuff you liked the most is consigned permanently to legends. However that is NOT the reality. Thrawn, Karrade, Jacen, the Noghri, Bel iblis, Ulic Qel Droma, the Jed'aii and so many other characters, groups, races and events I came to know and love over the decades may well be consigned, if not in whole, definitely in part, to an "elseworlds" status.

 

This does not mean however that I will stop enjoying them and certainly does not mean I have to deny the reality of it.

[Trogusaurus]

Based on the movie's duels, the following are all assured in the pecking order:

Darth Maul and General Grievous were both defeated by Obi-Wan.

Darth Maul lost to Kenobi whilst fighting another duelist. Thus, Maul > Grievous.

Dooku defeated Obi-Wan. Twice. With support both times.

Yoda easily forced Dooku's retreat, albeit after having dispatched two jedi prior. Slight to Yoda.

Though no clear victor emerged from the Yoda/Sidious duel, Yoda was the first to disengage. Slight to Sidious.

Barring outside assumptions, Windu defeated Sidious.

Though Obi-Wan defeated Anakin in Ep3, at his peak the roles were reversed in Anakin's favor. Slight to Anakin.

Luke defeated his father in Ep6, holding the assumption Anakin's power levels were unchanged from that of Ep4.

Luke and Sidious never truly fought, nor did they share a common enemy.

Luke and Windu have no common enemies.

 

With these absolutes to work with, we can draw these conclusions:

 

1-2. Luke Skywalker or Mace Windu

2-3. Darth Sidious or Luke Skywalker

3-4. Anakin Skywalker or Darth Sidious

4-5. Yoda or Anakin Skywalker

6. Count Dooku

7. Obi-Wan Kenobi

8. Darth Maul

9. General Grievous

10. Qui-Gon Jinn

 

This is where subjectivity comes to play. The easiest way to unwrap the top 5 movie duelist puzzle is by identifying the greater between Anakin and the Emperor. Had Anakin believed he could have overthrown the Emperor alone, he would not have enlisted the help of others to do so. Point Palpatine. Yoda actually fought the Darth toe to toe and put up a great showing, thus it can be assumed Yoda > Anakin.

 

Now let's look at Luke and the Emperor. Luke defeated his greatest feat, Anakin, with relative ease in Ep6, where Sidious clearly struggled in a long winded fight with his little green friend. From my personal point of view, had Luke decided to stand up and fight Palpatine instead of tossing his lightsaber away, he might have actually won alone. I believe Luke > Palpy.

 

This leaves Luke and Windu. Mace actually did defeat the Emperor, but with the assistance of a good deal of lesser jedi masters. Though there is no clear advantage here, I'm giving it to Luke. He defeated the most hated man in the galaxy and turned his back on the ultimate evil of the time. That takes some cojones.

 

As for Talzin, and TCW characters, I'm at a disadvantage. I can't say I viewed much of the series, but upon viewing the Windu/Talzin duel it's apparent Windu is fighting a losing battle or at the very least reverted to a defensive posture to prolong the engagement. Too short a fight to give a full point, but it appears Talzin held the advantage.

 

This leaves us with the following:

 

1-2. Luke Skywalker or Mother Talzin

3. Mace Windu

4. Darth Sidious

5. Yoda

6. Anakin Skywalker

7. Count Dooku

8. Obi-Wan Kenobi

9. Darth Maul

10. General Grievous

 

The real problem is that the movies never portray Luke's true potential, and since the EU is thrown out in this discussion there is no real way to tell what a peaked Skywalker would do against Talzin or even Windu for that matter. His greatest feat was his father, and that was with only 4 years' worth of accelerated training. I'm leaving #1 and 2 up to speculation.

 

I also recognize the many back-and-forth encounters from the animated series, but the end-all, be-all fights resulted in the following order with little room for movement. My power rankings come from the final duel between combatants at their peaks.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Trogusaurus

[Ghisallo]

I agree that's an issue until at least episode VII comes out. In essence we are trapped comparing indirectly... basically... something like...

 

Well Luke beat X... we said X beats Y so Luke must logically beat Y as well.

 

Thing is I still wonder about the whole "most powerful" thing in a more general way. You can have someone that has more force power BUT if someone else manages to turn a 1 v 1 contest into a lightsaber fight the most power force user could well lose. As an Example I believe mace is the better "warrior". He is described more than once as arguably the "deadliest being alive" because of his martial skill. So lets compare him to Bruce Lee. Now lets look at Sidious. I would say in terms of "the Force" he is stronger than Windu...BUT I believe mace to be the better warrior. So It comes down to "how" they meet... Bruce Lee gets into a H2H fight with Chris Kyle, Bruce wins....Kyle keeps Lee at range and shoots at him... Kyle wins.

 

Who is the most powerful?

[Permaximum]

It's pointless to debate Windu vs Sidious. Mace defeated him without getting a scratch.

 

I recently read that comic and In Talzin vs Sidious fight, although Dooku helped Sidious; Maul helped Talzin too and it looked Sidious and Dooku had the upper hand comfortably. If not for Grievous, the fight would lasted longer but Talzin and Maul would eventually lose in the end.

 

Windu's and the Jedi Order's respect for Yoda and very high words about him through out the movies makes it Yoda > Windu > Sidious . I think there should be a debate between Vader and Talzin and I'm going with Vader.

[tunewalker]

It's pointless to debate Windu vs Sidious. Mace defeated him without getting a scratch.

 

I recently read that comic and In Talzin vs Sidious fight, although Dooku helped Sidious; Maul helped Talzin too and it looked Sidious and Dooku had the upper hand comfortably. If not for Grievous, the fight would lasted longer but Talzin and Maul would eventually lose in the end.

 

Windu's and the Jedi Order's respect for Yoda and very high words about him through out the movies makes it Yoda > Windu > Sidious . I think there should be a debate between Vader and Talzin and I'm going with Vader.

 

As was said Earlier.... Yoda vs Sidious, Yoda lost, and there isnt even the whole "im to weak, followed by ULIMITED POWER" scene to make it a questionable loss. If you are going to base it off of "accolades" AND fights, then Sidious > Yoda > Windu. As Yoda is > Windu as per accolades and Sidious beat Yoda, and COULD have been playing possum against Windu, after Anakin walked in not to mention Windu had 3 MORE Jedi Masters with him, taking the time to strike them down ALONE could have been what lost enough energy out of Sidious to put Windu over. Again Something Yoda did not have. Truthfully you have given no REAL logical reason for having Windu Over Sidious, and even less for having Yoda over Sidious.

[Aurbere]

starwars.com confirms Sidious was manipulating the fight with Windu:

 

Palpatine plays the scene carefully — as usual — and when Windu has him within reach, Palpatine uses the moment to convince Anakin that the Jedi are trying to take over the government.

 

http://www.starwars.com/news/6-of-palpatines-key-manipulations

 

Even if you don't take that to be literal, it's pretty obvious what the intention is.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Aurbere

[Beniboybling]

First...okay he sent edits...BUT what edits? Since the Canon rules specifically stated that the movie Screenplay takes precedence over even the Novelizations for that to matter we need to know what Lucas edited for that to be relevant...

Its not the edits that are significant, it is the fact that George Lucas heavily scrutinised and then approved the movie novelisations, therefore everything in those novels is as Lucas intended.

 

It is therefore an extremely valuable resource in terms of interpreting the movies.

 

One thing Lucas clearly never intended is for Mace Windu to be more powerful than Sidious. So essentially this thread, which claims to be a reflection of the highest canon, does not even align with Lucas' image.

 

Bring in whatever rules you will to circumvent the validity of the novels, but this will remain a fact I'm afraid and this thread a farce. For if Disney have any intention of staying true to Lucas' vision, you will inevitably be proven wrong.

 

Or worse, you won't, Disney won't prove or disprove what your saying either way and you'll wallow in ignorance.

When it comes to Canon, you sir are the one with your head in the sand. I say as Canon for a specific reason. A book is NOT Canon, in and of itself, if it is only acknowledged as a source from which a screenwriter, new author etc., can cherry pick elements IF THEY CHOOSE to. Until that old element is incorporated in the new Canon its does not exist for Canon purposes....this is how Canon works.

Incorrect. Does not exist. Dead. Gone. etc. are absolute terms and part of the absolute jargon (that the EU has been irrevocable struck from the face of <insert more doomsday rantings here>) that simply does not apply here.

 

Disney has not divided Star Wars into Canon and N-Canon, it has not relegated the EU to a non-existent status. Instead they have created a new status called Legends. And made it quite clear that this Legends content can be incorporated into Canon in the future. This puts Legends in the realm of possibility, not non-existence. Because something that didn't happen/exist can't suddenly exist, that is self-contradictory, instead it exists in limbo between Canon and N-Canon. Something that could either be incorporated, or invalidated by new Canon material.

 

Given that, I and many others are operating under the policy of 'true until proven otherwise', we choose to believe in the 'Legends' until gospel Canon invalidates it. I see no problem with this perspective, whereas I see it as very problematic to take the opposite stance (your stance), 'false until prove otherwise.'

 

Why? This thread is the perfect example, it assumes the EU is false until proven otherwise. Vaapad is therefore false. Windu is therefore more powerful than Sidious. But that happens if Vaapad is proven true? Then the conclusions in this thread are false. Windu is not more powerful than than Sidious and changes have to be made.

 

Now of course you could level the same accusation at me i.e. what happens if Vaapad is prove false? Then the conclusions we have made are invalidated and have to be changed. Which policy is more valid however ultimately comes down to which is more likely to happen, is the EU as a whole more likely to be proven largely false or largely true? I'm falling on truth, because the EU is well established and well respected and for the most part makes sense.

 

Indeed ask yourself, which is more likely, that Vaapad will be validated or invalidated in future Canon? Validated of course. Disney is not rebooting Star Wars, and they are validating the EU every day. The only era that is to undergo radical changes is the post-ROTJ, I fully understand this, and am prepared for the inevitable changes that will occur.

 

So berate me for siding with the EU if you will, but I've thought my stance out thoroughly and I have no intention of wavering from it, so feel free to just sit back and watch as my world comes crashing down around me. Or doesn't.

[Beniboybling]

As was said Earlier.... Yoda vs Sidious, Yoda lost, and there isnt even the whole "im to weak, followed by ULIMITED POWER" scene to make it a questionable loss. If you are going to base it off of "accolades" AND fights, then Sidious > Yoda > Windu. As Yoda is > Windu as per accolades and Sidious beat Yoda, and COULD have been playing possum against Windu, after Anakin walked in not to mention Windu had 3 MORE Jedi Masters with him, taking the time to strike them down ALONE could have been what lost enough energy out of Sidious to put Windu over. Again Something Yoda did not have. Truthfully you have given no REAL logical reason for having Windu Over Sidious, and even less for having Yoda over Sidious.

Well, that would only hold water if Sidious defeated him through strength in the Force. He didn't.

 

And Yoda demonstrated he was a superior Force User throughout. At least I feel so.

 

But yes, the overwhelming canon evidence that Sidious (and Yoda) are superior Force Users to Windu based on their feats practically demands that we assume Sidious was playing possum, its the only argument that makes sense.

[Permaximum]

As was said Earlier.... Yoda vs Sidious, Yoda lost, and there isnt even the whole "im to weak, followed by ULIMITED POWER" scene to make it a questionable loss. If you are going to base it off of "accolades" AND fights, then Sidious > Yoda > Windu. As Yoda is > Windu as per accolades and Sidious beat Yoda, and COULD have been playing possum against Windu, after Anakin walked in not to mention Windu had 3 MORE Jedi Masters with him, taking the time to strike them down ALONE could have been what lost enough energy out of Sidious to put Windu over. Again Something Yoda did not have. Truthfully you have given no REAL logical reason for having Windu Over Sidious, and even less for having Yoda over Sidious.

 

Yoda didn't lose. That wasn't what I saw in the screen.

 

If Sheev was so weak that he needed the first 3 secs which he spent killing other guys, then he's not worthy to compare to Mace Windu. Windu defeated Sidious on 1 on 1 as clear as day light. Accept that first then we can have a discussion.

 

Yes, Yoda couldn't defeat Sidious in time despite the fact that Windu defeated him rather easily. The environment favoured Palpatine. Also I had a feeling while I was watching the movies that the Light Side lost power after the loss of countless jedis and The Dark Side feeded upon this. And especially after Vader's turn to the Dark Side it seemed like Sidious gained more power.. .

[Permaximum]

starwars.com confirms Sidious was manipulating the fight with Windu:

 

http://www.starwars.com/news/6-of-palpatines-key-manipulations

 

Even if you don't take that to be literal, it's pretty obvious what the intention is.

 

1. Starwars.com can not make new canon. Disney stated what's canon.

2. Still, it refers to Palpatine's "I'm too weak, please don't kill me" and "I have the power to save your wife" line which he said to convince Anakin to save him. He already lost the fight at this point and Anakin was his best chance to survive.

[tunewalker]

Yoda didn't lose. That wasn't what I saw in the screen.

 

If Sheev was so weak that he needed the first 3 secs which he spent killing other guys, then he's not worthy to compare to Mace Windu. Windu defeated Sidious on 1 on 1 as clear as day light. Accept that first then we can have a discussion.

 

Yes, Yoda couldn't defeat Sidious in time despite the fact that Windu defeated him rather easily. The environment favoured Palpatine. Also I had a feeling while I was watching the movies that the Light Side lost power after the loss of countless jedis and The Dark Side feeded upon this. And especially after Vader's turn to the Dark Side it seemed like Sidious gained more power.. .

 

The enviroment Favored Windu... he had 3 other people with him. And defeated "easily" lol there was one point Sidious practically had His saber to Windu's throat if Windu didnt have room to back up he would have been cut down right there.

 

Yoda was cast down, he lost "failed I have, into exile I must go" there isnt much room for interpretation he lost. He had to flee. He could not continue the fight. GG Sidious Wins.

[Aurbere]

1. Starwars.com can not make new canon. Disney stated what's canon.

2. Still, it refers to Palpatine's "I'm too weak, please don't kill me" and "I have the power to save your wife" line which he said to convince Anakin to save him. He already lost the fight at this point and Anakin was his best chance to survive.

 

You do realize canon changes have been made and declared on that website, right?

[Permaximum]

The enviroment Favored Windu... he had 3 other people with him. And defeated "easily" lol there was one point Sidious practically had His saber to Windu's throat if Windu didnt have room to back up he would have been cut down right there.

 

Yoda was cast down, he lost "failed I have, into exile I must go" there isnt much room for interpretation he lost. He had to flee. He could not continue the fight. GG Sidious Wins.

 

For 3 secs, yes the environment favoured Windu. In fact others just got on his way. I wouldn't call it "environment" faovoured Windu. Also, Windu defeated Palpatine for real. Not just he "fell" crap.

 

Yoda was not cast down, he fell because of his small body. With that line he meant everything that happened in the PT, and he couldn't prevent it just like he couldn't defeat Palpatine in time.

[Permaximum]

You do realize canon changes have been made and declared on that website, right?

 

Yep, they stated what's canon and not there. In the link above, I didn't see they changed their statement.