The Most Powerful Force Users in the Galaxy (CANON)

[Ghisallo]

I'd say a mixture of combat ability/force power. I think influence/intelligence shouldn't be factored because it doesn't always matter. If someone ran into Sidious head on for example all that matters is how skilled/powerful you are in that situation. I think outside influences shouldn't matter but that's my opinion.

 

Oh PS...I was only referring to Mace being the better tactician/duelist. We see when he fights Sidious that in terms of it not being a sword fight the balance tilts against him.

 

However in the long run I really wonder if any of these arguments have any real value. I'll use Sidious as an example. In what is now Canon Sidious is indeed powerful but you could argue either way on who was > on a few fronts. What put him over the top? Not his power in the force but that he had the patience, intelligence and foresight to set into motion a decades long conspiracy, manipulating not just people but entire structures of governments and corporations. If he had just rallied some power hungry people and showed up with a fleet saying "I am creating a new empire" he would have been crushed. Looking at Vader from more than a few feats you have to ask "how much is force and how much is cyberware?" Looking at Talzin you have to ask "how much is her own ability in the force and how much of it is well prepared ritual and the use of devices?"

 

The force by it's very nature defines being quantified so how can we reasonably quantify people overall. I know its natural for people to try and quantify everything, especially when it involves characters we like and/or are attached too... It doesn't mean its practical or even really possible though.

[tunewalker]

Most of your post is speculations based on assumptions. You can speculate but it would be better if you speculate on the facts.

 

Yes, Vader is stronger in episode IV. But we don't know if he gets stronger or worse in episodes V and VI. You can't base all of your arguments on an assumption that "Vader was at his prime in episode VI and he was going all out against Luke". IMO both of those points are wrong.

 

You can not assume that Vader got weaker, which is what you are doing right now. Further Luke is SPECIFICALLY Stated to have gotten stronger. So if we go by the conclusion that Vader stayed the same (as there is NOTHING saying he got weaker or stronger, except the SCREEN PLAYS AKA the Movies, which says Vader got stronger) then Luke would be stronger then Vader by the end of that fight. Why would Vader purposefully get his own arm cut off and then be put into the position to be killed. His expressed goal in BOTH ESB and RotJ is to Turn either Luke (or at the end of RotJ Leia) and then kill Palpatine useing them together. Losing to Luke is in direct conflict with that goal. Further more LUKE was not trying, again go sit down and WATCH RotJ. "I can't do it Ben, I cant kill my own father", "There is good in him I felt it, he wont turn me over to the emperor." "I can change him back, to the good side" Luke was just as, if not MORE dedicated to turning Vader as Vader was to turning Luke. " I will not turn, and you will be forced to kill me." "If that is your destiny"

 

The only one making assumptions about the duel between Luke and Vader is you. There is LITERALLY no way you can talk about "real canon" and say Luke is weaker then Vader, with out making a mockery of your own thread, since the ENTIRE OT was about Luke's progression, about the "heroes journey" the whole PURPOSE of the way RotJ is shot is to show how much Luke has grown.

 

"He has grown strong only together can we turn him to the darkside" "No more training do you require, already know you, that what you need." "your skills are complete, indeed you are powerful as the emperor has foreseen" "You can either profit by this or be destroyed, but I warn you not to underestimate my power"

 

So on and So forth, if you have ONE, just ONE quote that says Vader got weaker between ANH and RotJ, please show it, but I KNOW it doesnt exist as EVERY single supplement to the movies has said other wise. The best we can do is Assume no change in Vader as none is expressedly stated, however the number of statement that say Luke got stronger in the movies themselves is so overwhelmingly staggering the only way you can conclude in Canon that Vader > RotJ Luke is quit litterally fanboy bias and blindness to the expressed intent of the Story and to the Canon statements.

 

Edit: So far I have backed all of my reasoning with quotes from the movies, + the screen plays, + the supplemental material given ABOUT the screen plays in the "star wars Insider" which is basically behind the scenes info. To support my claim, no one else has given JACK SQUAT to prove Vader is stronger then Luke. The Movies Say no, end all be all. They are canon. its the classic "heroes journey" Story, there is litterally 0 reason to think Vader was weaker, and there is less support IN THE MOVIES for Vader holding back then there is for Luke holding back.

Edited March 17, 2015 by tunewalker

[Ghisallo]

Tune you kinda point out a MAJOR issue that has always existed... Look at the other "most powerful" thread. Eventually some one of the defense wasn't "here is an example of him doing X", it was rather " how do we know he can't do X? Maybe he just never had the need or opportunity to do it?"

 

Then to make things even more subjective we can have a pretty clear cut incident BUT because the "winner" there doesn't have some crazy obvious force feat elsewhere the other guy must have "let him win." Both are baseless assumptions because, if the author has any sense of pride in their work, they shouldn't be concerned about having a crazy strong force feat or how the character they are writing about stacks up against another. All that should concern them is telling a good story.

 

As such you really can only compare, at best, shared feats. Bringing in something Bob did but Steve didn't doesn't tell us anywhere as much as what we see when they either face off head to head or perform similar feats under similar circumstances.

 

Now I lersonally believe, if you actually read what you and I have read...yes Vader won on Bespin in Empire BUT Luke, who had not picked up a light saber in his life until 2 years prior actually managed to hurt him. If Vader didn't have that cyber armor he may well have lost his arm. In RotJ it is Canon (screenplay and commentaries) that Vader started less than his full potential but that eventually he had to go all out to defend himself against a Luke who was not channeling his anger and hate...once Luke went "dark" on us he beat the stuffing out of Vader.

 

Why? The dark side is easier (remember Yoda? Luke: "is the dark side stronger? Yoda:No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive). So we have a young man, who has now been using a light saber and the force for only 4 years, being Vader's equal taking the slower harder path and then surpassing him we he takes the " easy" way out and goes dark on us.

 

Yes Luke had the best teacher yes BUT that training was intermittent as he was also helping the Alliance. Hell when you read commentaries and the like Sidious knew if Luke went dark he would kill Vader and Sidious WANTED that to happen...after becoming a cyborg Vader was no longer the apprentice that Sidious wanted and he wanted to replace him. In that fight we not only see Luke come into his own, we see Sidious for who he really is. The person who played the part of wanting to be Anakin's mentor only wanted to use him and when he saw the opportunity to replace the apprentice he felt was ultimately a failure (remember Siths are all about purity and extremes, especially after the rule of two was in place, so "good enough" doesn't cut it.)

 

The problem is this only goes to illustrate my point from earlier. Making these comparisons and rankings in the end is a purely subjective exercise. One person will say "how do you know he couldn't?" another person will say "you can only compare shared feats/events", and so forth. then to justify or support that purely subjective premise they will make assumptions of scenes when there is NO data to support it.

 

Example Mace v Talzin. I believe not just based on the video but on what Mace says to Jar Jar " get the queen" before he engages. Now tell me how is Jar Jar going to do that, if Mace stays on the platform, with Talzin in arm's reach... Forget about Saber reach of the queen? Answer they can't. So based just on that scene at best we can't say who the better duelist is (note I did NOT say most powerful force user). BUT based on other events, not related to these two characters, with different circumstances, they will come to a different conclusion.

 

These are not quantified events. Its not like saying Usain Bolt is faster than Bob because Bob can't break 11 seconds and Bolt can do the 100 in 9.58. The analysis of these events are far too subjective, with no criteria on how to evaluate what passes for evidence.

[tunewalker]

Tune you kinda point out a MAJOR issue that has always existed... Look at the other "most powerful" thread. Eventually some one of the defense wasn't "here is an example of him doing X", it was rather " how do we know he can't do X? Maybe he just never had the need or opportunity to do it?"

 

Then to make things even more subjective we can have a pretty clear cut incident BUT because the "winner" there doesn't have some crazy obvious force feat elsewhere the other guy must have "let him win." Both are baseless assumptions because, if the author has any sense of pride in their work, they shouldn't be concerned about having a crazy strong force feat or how the character they are writing about stacks up against another. All that should concern them is telling a good story.

 

As such you really can only compare, at best, shared feats. Bringing in something Bob did but Steve didn't doesn't tell us anywhere as much as what we see when they either face off head to head or perform similar feats under similar circumstances.

 

Now I lersonally believe, if you actually read what you and I have read...yes Vader won on Bespin in Empire BUT Luke, who had not picked up a light saber in his life until 2 years prior actually managed to hurt him. If Vader didn't have that cyber armor he may well have lost his arm. In RotJ it is Canon (screenplay and commentaries) that Vader started less than his full potential but that eventually he had to go all out to defend himself against a Luke who was not channeling his anger and hate...once Luke went "dark" on us he beat the stuffing out of Vader.

 

Why? The dark side is easier (remember Yoda? Luke: "is the dark side stronger? Yoda:No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive). So we have a young man, who has now been using a light saber and the force for only 4 years, being Vader's equal taking the slower harder path and then surpassing him we he takes the " easy" way out and goes dark on us.

 

Yes Luke had the best teacher yes BUT that training was intermittent as he was also helping the Alliance. Hell when you read commentaries and the like Sidious knew if Luke went dark he would kill Vader and Sidious WANTED that to happen...after becoming a cyborg Vader was no longer the apprentice that Sidious wanted and he wanted to replace him. In that fight we not only see Luke come into his own, we see Sidious for who he really is. The person who played the part of wanting to be Anakin's mentor only wanted to use him and when he saw the opportunity to replace the apprentice he felt was ultimately a failure (remember Siths are all about purity and extremes, especially after the rule of two was in place, so "good enough" doesn't cut it.)

 

The problem is this only goes to illustrate my point from earlier. Making these comparisons and rankings in the end is a purely subjective exercise. One person will say "how do you know he couldn't?" another person will say "you can only compare shared feats/events", and so forth. then to justify or support that purely subjective premise they will make assumptions of scenes when there is NO data to support it.

 

Example Mace v Talzin. I believe not just based on the video but on what Mace says to Jar Jar " get the queen" before he engages. Now tell me how is Jar Jar going to do that, if Mace stays on the platform, with Talzin in arm's reach... Forget about Saber reach of the queen? Answer they can't. So based just on that scene at best we can't say who the better duelist is (note I did NOT say most powerful force user). BUT based on other events, not related to these two characters, with different circumstances, they will come to a different conclusion.

 

These are not quantified events. Its not like saying Usain Bolt is faster than Bob because Bob can't break 11 seconds and Bolt can do the 100 in 9.58. The analysis of these events are far too subjective, with no criteria on how to evaluate what passes for evidence.

 

I do agree with a vast majority of this, my point was while YES Vader was holding back against Luke pre Luke rage, Luke was also holding back as per the screen play. I think my issue right now is very simple. I really like Luke Skywalker's journey through out the Original Trilogy. Time and again though he doesnt get credit for one simple thing, defeating Darth Vader. With EU gone in this thread "crazy awesome" EU feats are mostly gone as well. Thus there is even less reason not to believe in Luke's Abilities in RotJ.

 

While yes, I personally do not believe Windu more powerful then Sidious, I am also never going to say that in the CURRENT canon, they arent on the same level. I honestly consider Sidious, Talzin, Windu, Yoda, and Luke all on a high enough Level that the winner of each would be more dependent on the situation then anything else in the current Canon. And Honestly.... THAT's a GOOD thing. That makes for interesting action scenes rather then just "lawls I am more powerful *slap*" It makes for tention. In certain Circumstances I believe Yoda could have won, but he didnt. In other Circumstances Windu would have lost, but he didnt. What would it have been, had Luke NOT thrown his saber down? Maybe he could have killed Sidious, but if he had what then? Would it have taken so long that the Second Death Star would have exploded? Would he have shown Vader AGAIN that he had chosen the correct path, thus being unable to save his father? possible all of the above. While I will continue to argue that in current Canon Luke is still one of the greatest Jedi to ever live, I am also very GLAD that he never truly fought Sidious. It would have defeated the purpose of his journey.

 

I just will NOT ever accept the arguement "well he only trained for x amount of time, so there is no way he was that strong" when RotJ goes out of its way to tell you how much stronger Luke is, Not once, not twice, not even 3 times, but 4-5 times It tells you Luke is really strong now.

 

Luke:

"Never the less I am taking Solo and his friends, you can either profit by this or be destroyed, its your choice but I

warn you not to underestimate my power"

Sidious:

"He has grown strong, only together will we turn him to the dark side"

Yoda:

"No more training do you require, already know you that what you need"

Vader:

"your skills are complete, indeed you are powerful as the Emperor has foreseen"

Sidious:

"your hate has made you powerful"

 

By that point in the movie I am literally I GET IT Luke is strong, stop bashing that into my head, movie you dont need to tell me the same thing 5 times, I get it the last movie he was not ready, this one he is what ever happened in that Year gap made a huge difference in luke I get it JEEZE. And Yet people all over the place it went completely over there head, so apparently the movie straight out telling people this FIVE TIMES and they still didnt get it, hear that Disney if you want your message to get acrossed make sure to state the same thing in your movie like 10 times in a row. Just have every character say it, maybe that will get it to sink in.

 

Edit: The Force, and Force users arent DBZ characters.

Edited March 17, 2015 by tunewalker

[Ghisallo]

Well there is a reason I think for this under estimation. Just look at the faction imbalance in this game. People dig a good bad guy. If the bad guy loses it just has to be because the bad guy, in the end, screwed up, under estimated the albeit still weaker opponent or the famous "you got me monologuing".

 

So when you have good villains that get hyped as so powerful and "cool" many are going to look for any other reason than the obvious intent (and in this case specifically stated) that the good guy was just better when that final fight happened. He might not have been better a year or two before but now he has come into his own, or in a moment of crisis found a strength they did not know they had, whatever.

 

I also think modern society has a lot to do about it. How many movies do we watch where the cop catches the bad guy by playing by the rules? We see that in procedural dramas on TV but rarely in the movies. When you ask your friends who is cooler do they say Batman or Superman? Wolverine or Capt America? Chances are the former in both not the later. The age of the bona fide good guy not just being strong but being genuinely good was dying in the mid to late 60s and somewhere around Nixon's resignation got a stake jammed into it's heart. Tis sad imo.

[Permaximum]

@tunewalker

 

1. Yes, Luke got stronger in episode VI.

2. His power was definetely comparable to Vader cuz Yoda and Obi-Wan had sent him to face Vader.

3. Luke getting stronger didn't necessarily mean he's also stronger than Vader.

4. I only look at the movie for obvious reasons. We shouldn't care about screenplays but the actual movie. Screenplays have always been edited till the last minute and they are not considered canon. We don't know if Vader was still in his prime in episode VI.

5. In the movie, I got the feeling Vader's love for his son already started the redemption of him and he was in conflict throughout the movie and throughout the fight.

6. Vader never intended to kill Luke in any of his fights. He wanted to turn Luke into the dark side and later he even started to have doubts about his actions but tried to mask all of this because of the emperor.

7. Luke went all-out after Vader provoked him by exploiting his weaknees for Leia.

8. In light of all these, I don't think we can come to a definete conclusion about who's more powerful. So, we look at their feats. And when it comes to the feats; Sidious, Yoda, Windu, Vader, Talzin, Kenobi and Dooku all had shown far greater skills. Luke on the other hand definetely needed a skill like Yoda used to absorb and deflect force lightning in the end of ROTJ.

 

For the sake of making a progress, we'll list the force users by who got the most votes with detailed reasonings in each round.

 

Alright, for the first spot there have been arguments made for a few force users. Let's make our final arguments for this round. Eventually the majority will agree on one.

 

So far;

@Rhyltran voted for Talzin

@Selenial voted for Talzin

@Alimarius voted for Sidious

@tunewalker voted for Luke Skywalker ?

@Permaximum still undecided on Yoda and Vader.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Permaximum

[tunewalker]

@tunewalker

 

1. Yes, Luke got stronger in episode VI.

2. His power was definetely comparable to Vader cuz Yoda and Obi-Wan had sent him to face Vader.

3. Luke getting stronger didn't necessarily mean he's also stronger than Vader.

4. I only look at the movie for obvious reasons. We shouldn't care about screenplays but the actual movie. Screenplays have always been edited till the last minute and they are not considered canon. We don't know if Vader was still in his prime in episode VI.

5. In the movie, I got the feeling Vader's love for his son already started the redemption of him and he was in conflict throughout the movie and throughout the fight.

6. Vader never intended to kill Luke in any of his fights. He wanted to turn Luke into the dark side and later he even started to have doubts about his actions but tried to mask all of this because of the emperor.

7. Luke went all-out after Vader provoked him by exploiting his weaknees for Leia.

8. In light of all these, I don't think we can come to a definete conclusion about who's more powerful. So, we look at their feats. And when it comes to the feats; Sidious, Yoda, Windu, Vader, Talzin, Kenobi and Dooku all had shown far greater skills. Luke on the other hand definetely needed a skill like Yoda used to absorb and deflect force lightning in the end of ROTJ.

 

For the sake of making a progress, we'll list the force users by who got the most votes with detailed reasonings in each round.

 

Alright, for the first spot there have been arguments made for a few force users. Let's make our final arguments for this round. Eventually the majority will agree on one.

 

So far;

@Rhyltran voted for Talzin

@Selenial voted for Talzin

@Alimarius voted for Sidious

@tunewalker voted for Luke Skywalker ?

@Permaximum still undecided on Yoda and Vader.

 

There is no point for this debate, you have made up your mind and have no interest in listening to Canon.

 

1. There is nothing saying Vader got weaker, with nothing saying stronger, and nothing stating weaker the safe bet is to keep as is.

2. Correction They sent him to destroy Vader, AND his Emperor.

3. No the fight in RotJ shows this, and not JUST the ending, please go watch the whole thing.

4. I wish you WOULD take the movies into consideration instead of... what ever it is that you are basing your assumption on.

5. From what exactly... you have quote... cus I do. "I feel the good in you, the conflict" "There is NO conflict" "you couldnt bring youerself to destroy me before I dont believe you will destroy me now" "you underestimate the dark side, if you will not fight, Then you will MEET YOUR DESTINY!"

6. Luke Never intended to Kill VADER in the final fight. "I cant do it Ben, I cant kill my own Father" "there is good in him, I can turn him back, to the good side" And yet look at the start of that fight, no full on rage attack, both holding back, who has the edge? oh right Luke. Then Luke takes an even FURTHER step back going, "I will not fight you father" and from there does 0 attacks, and yet who was it that once again takes the High ground? Oh Right Luke, he doesnt give an inch and stays in complete tactical control of the fight from start to finish.

7. Yes he did, AND TROUNCED HIM. Vader at this point WOULD NOT have been holding back, and is shown LESS holding back then Luke was after the "I will not fight you father" in which Vader STILL couldnt take the edge. It makes no sense for Vader to hold back against a stronger opponent when the point is to show him that unless he gives in and switches sides there is no Stopping Vader or the Emperor because of how powerful the dark side is. If he lost he Lost fair and square.

8. And who else in canon has shown the ability to Deflect Sidious's Lightning with out a lightsaber? Oh right NOBODY. Yoda tried to contain it just to get blasted off the edge. Windu needed his saber, and failed the moment he didnt have it. No one not even Yoda has stopped Sidious Lightning in Canon with out a lightsaber. What feats has Vader done better then Luke? At the beginning of the movie he mind tricks Bib Fortuna, the right hand man of Jabba the Hutt. It takes Anakin, Obi-wan AND Windu to get information out of Cad Bane. In fact after the first hand wave, Luke doesnt even move his hand to do the mind trick any more. In all other instances in current canon, they move their hand for every trick. Luke fights a Barge full of skilled and trained mercenaries, in Jabba's henchmen, we are talking about 30 guys. Lando is nearly knocked into the pit, Han is blind, Leia is chained to Jabba himself, Chewie is trying to help Han pick up Lando, which means he has to do it basically single handedly. The only times the Jedi like Obi-wan or Anakin have to face these kinds of odds they are fighting a bunch of B1's or OOM droids, which have been shown throughout, they are worthless comic relief villains. Mercenaries on the other hand in ALL canon sources have been shown to be good and skilled individuals. Gomoreans may be dumb, but they arent to be messed with and Luke still takes all these guys down. Do I think Yoda, Sidious and Maybe even Talzin and Windu have better feats ya maybe, or at the very least on par feats, but Vader, Obi-wan, Dooku? HELL NO. Vader Lost to Luke, he would not have held back in the final engagement it doesnt make sense for his stated goal, in the points when he WAS holding back, Luke was holding back just as much OR MORE And he STILL took the advantage. Vader killed Dooku, and was listed by Palpatine to be "far younger and more powerful" hell those movies Paraleles Luke's journey... BECAUSE ITS SUPPOSED TO.

 

 

Episode I Anakin blows up Space Station Saving the Day

Episode IV Luke Blows up Space Station Saving the Day

Episode II Anakin overconfident in his abilities rushes to face the Evil Count Dookum and loses his right hand in the process.

Episode V Luke Rushes to face Darth Vader overconfident in his abilities and Loses his Right Hand in the process.

Episode III The movie tells us Anakin has gotten stronger since he last faced Count Dooku at the end of the fight he gives in to the Dark Side a little and cuts off Dooku's hands all while Palpatine WATCHES. He has the Count beat and Palpatine tells him to Kill Dooku. He hesitates for a bit, but then DOES SO. Later in the Movie he takes Dooku's place at Palpatine's side.

Episode VI The Movie Tells us Luke has gotten stronger since he last faced Darth Vader at the end of the fight he gives in to the Dark Side a little and cuts off Vader's Hand all while Palpatine WATCHES. He has Vader beat and Palpatine tells him to Kill Vader and thus take Vader's place at Palpatine's side. He hesitates for a bit and then throws down his saber, saying once again he will never turn to the darkside.

 

and that is the ENTIRE POINT of the movies. Anakin and Luke walked the EXACT same path, but in the end where Anakin gave in to the darkness and becomes Darth Vader ushering in the Dark times, Luke cast off the Darkness and became a Jedi ushering in the END to the Dark times. The Journey of Anakin becoming more powerful then Dooku, is as important to the story as Luke doing the same. It wasnt about the villains getting weaker, in fact all evidence to the contrary exist as the Villains become more in control and just moments away from sure victory, but its about our heroes progression and the choices they make.

 

Hell you want one more parrellel scene.

 

Windu having Sidious at his mercy, Anakin killing Windu and saving Sidious when Windu choses to same path as Anakin himself chose earlier in the movie.

 

Sidious electricuting the unprepared and unarmed Luke. Difference is this time, unlike Windu, Luke DIDNT make the same choice as Anakin, and was paying for it here. Luke was even more helpless then Sidious was because he cast down ALL weapons, while Sidious was still fighting back. It took a greater injustice then the first that turned him, to turn him back. As it should.

[tunewalker]

Well there is a reason I think for this under estimation. Just look at the faction imbalance in this game. People dig a good bad guy. If the bad guy loses it just has to be because the bad guy, in the end, screwed up, under estimated the albeit still weaker opponent or the famous "you got me monologuing".

 

So when you have good villains that get hyped as so powerful and "cool" many are going to look for any other reason than the obvious intent (and in this case specifically stated) that the good guy was just better when that final fight happened. He might not have been better a year or two before but now he has come into his own, or in a moment of crisis found a strength they did not know they had, whatever.

 

I also think modern society has a lot to do about it. How many movies do we watch where the cop catches the bad guy by playing by the rules? We see that in procedural dramas on TV but rarely in the movies. When you ask your friends who is cooler do they say Batman or Superman? Wolverine or Capt America? Chances are the former in both not the later. The age of the bona fide good guy not just being strong but being genuinely good was dying in the mid to late 60s and somewhere around Nixon's resignation got a stake jammed into it's heart. Tis sad imo.

 

My answer is Superman, and My answer is Captain America. (If it was who would win in a fight most of the time, it would be Superman and Wolverine, simply because of the healing Factor).

Personally I do think with the new captain America movies, that the idea of the true good guy is making a come back, but those re my favorite characters. In DnD I play Lawful Good, or Neutral Good. (Neutral good more often then not). In this game I turned off the Lightside and Darkside indicators on my first character (Jedi knight) and I ended the game with Light IV, because I did what I felt the character I wanted to make would do. I Have 8 characters and not ONE is Dark V, it is just so hard for me to pick those choices, because then I stop LIKING my own character, and thus cant really play him that way. I like my heroes, Heroic. . And lets face it when you are playing the "empire side" you are still the Hero of your story.

Edited March 17, 2015 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

Heh, only just noticed the parallels between Dooku vs Anakin and Luke vs Vader. Neat.

[Permaximum]

@tunewalker

 

Even Vader didn't believe his words about there is no conflict, meet your destiny etc. Luke himself said "Your thoughts betray you father. I feel the good in you, the conflict". And then Vader said:"You were right about me. Tell your sister that you were right".

 

You're definetely biased and you're a Luke Skywalker fanboy.

 

You never mention Count Dooku's force lightning, impressive TK display in episode II, Obi-Wan's signature very powerful force push, Darth Vader's beyond Yoda and Sidious level TK in the new Star Wars comics or the fact that he killed Sidious with his one hand by resisting his fully powered force lightning. But you tell things like Luke didn't raise his hand to force persuade etc.

 

I'm 100% sure if Vader went all-out against Luke with his full rage, he could destroy him. We're talking about a guy who could force choke from miles away and TK crush an AT-AT for god's sake.

 

I mean it's almost comical. But you made your point. We got it.

[Beniboybling]

You're definetely biased and you're a Luke Skywalker fanboy.

 

Probably best not to directly insult what amounts for a third of those participating.

[Permaximum]

 

Probably best not to directly insult what amounts for a third of those participating.

 

1. It wasn't an insult. I believe he will agree he's a Luke Skywalker fan.

2. I don't care about who's participating or not. But I expected only a few people anyways. Until the release of episode VII I don't think people who care about this stuff (hardcore Star Wars fans) will let "Legends" go. They still hold onto it.

3. You know the real existence of this thread and it already served it's purpose.

4. I thought you left the thread.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Permaximum

[tunewalker]

@tunewalker

 

Even Vader didn't believe his words about there is no conflict, meet your destiny etc. Luke himself said "Your thoughts betray you father. I feel the good in you, the conflict". And then Vader said:"You were right about me. Tell your sister that you were right".

 

You're definetely biased and you're a Luke Skywalker fanboy.

 

You never mention Count Dooku's force lightning, impressive TK display in episode II, Obi-Wan's signature very powerful force push, Darth Vader's beyond Yoda and Sidious level TK in the new Star Wars comics or the fact that he killed Sidious with his one hand by resisting his fully powered force lightning. But you tell things like Luke didn't raise his hand to force persuade etc.

 

I'm 100% sure if Vader went all-out against Luke with his full rage, he could destroy him. We're talking about a guy who could force choke from miles away and TK crush an AT-AT for god's sake.

 

I mean it's almost comical. But you made your point. We got it.

 

lol, Dooku was bested by Anakin who doesnt have TK displays that good, hell what are Windu's TK displays by comparison to Palpatine and Yoda, in the movies, basically non existant and pathetic by comparsion, yet you have NO issue with him being over Palpatine based on a Saber duel. Luke lifted just as large an object in 3PO and the chair, while again his hands were bound as Dooku did with the ceiling (Dooku uses his hands). "Signature Very powerful force push" HMMM where is it said that his push is powerful or signature in any way... Oh right in the screen plays and novelizations which you are not taking as Canon cus "they arent", but if you want to use those then I return you back to RotJ Novel which states Vader was more powerful then ever AND that he was trying to defeat Luke.

 

Your 100% sure, is in direct conflict with the movies the main source of Canon IE your 100% Sure, is 100% wrong. We only see Vader Choke one person at a time in the movies, Luke at the opening Chokes 2 people simultaneously. That is another show of progression. Just because Luke doesnt APPEAR to be powerful doesnt mean he isnt. They state it Multiple Times through out the movie. Yes He was right about Vader, Specifically Right about there being good in him. That doesnt mean Vader was holding back when Luke Charged him. It makes no sense for him to do so when his expressed goal is to turn Luke and together WITH Luke take down the Emperor as Luke's Master. The only thing you are seeing right now, is a limit in technology of the time.

 

The entire point of the story is Luke surpasses Darth Vader. So everything Vader has done (Crushing AT-AT's) so on and so forth, Luke is more then capable of doing as of RotJ as that is the expressed purpose of the Story. I am as much a "Luke Skywalker fanboy" as you are an "OT Hater".

 

Like every one knows, you have made up your mind as to what you think the list is, but its not supported by any Canon Statements.

 

You said it yourself "statments are greater then feats" in your opening page. Well statements all point to Luke > Vader yet you ignore them "cus the feats dont match up" Except... they do, Luke defeats Vader, that is a Feat and one you should not have ignored.

Edited March 17, 2015 by tunewalker

[Permaximum]

lol, Dooku was bested by Anakin who doesnt have TK displays that good, hell what are Windu's TK displays by comparison to Palpatine and Yoda, in the movies, basically non existant and pathetic by comparsion, yet you have NO issue with him being over Palpatine based on a Saber duel. Luke lifted just as large an object in 3PO and the chair, while again his hands were bound as Dooku did with the ceiling (Dooku uses his hands). "Signature Very powerful force push" HMMM where is it said that his push is powerful or signature in any way... Oh right in the screen plays and novelizations which you are not taking as Canon cus "they arent", but if you want to use those then I return you back to RotJ Novel which states Vader was more powerful then ever AND that he was trying to defeat Luke.

 

Your 100% sure, is in direct conflict with the movies the main source of Canon IE your 100% Sure, is 100% wrong. We only see Vader Choke one person at a time in the movies, Luke at the opening Chokes 2 people simultaneously. That is another show of progression. Just because Luke doesnt APPEAR to be powerful doesnt mean he isnt. They state it Multiple Times through out the movie. Yes He was right about Vader, Specifically Right about there being good in him. That doesnt mean Vader was holding back when Luke Charged him. It makes no sense for him to do so when his expressed goal is to turn Luke and together WITH Luke take down the Emperor as Luke's Master. The only thing you are seeing right now, is a limit in technology of the time.

 

The entire point of the story is Luke surpasses Darth Vader. So everything Vader has done (Crushing AT-AT's) so on and so forth, Luke is more then capable of doing as of RotJ as that is the expressed purpose of the Story. I am as much a "Luke Skywalker fanboy" as you are an "OT Hater".

 

Like every one knows, you have made up your mind as to what you think the list is, but its not supported by any Canon Statements.

 

You said it yourself "statments are greater then feats" in your opening page. Well statements all point to Luke > Vader yet you ignore them "cus the feats dont match up" Except... they do, Luke defeats Vader, that is a Feat and one you should not have ignored.

 

To prove your bias, even Savage Opress could force choke 2 people at the same time and they were Dooku and Ventress . You somehow think force choking 2 people is a better feat than force choking a guy from miles away through holocom. That logic is flawed.

 

I meant the movies for Obi-Wan's force push. Do you remember what he did to Grevious?

 

BTW I forgot to say Yoda obviously deflected Sidious' force lightning clearly as we've seen in the third movie. Sidious was in pain. What did Luke do? Deflect? No. Absorb? Not even that... Resisting like Vader? Absolutely not.

 

If you show me one "absolute statement" in any canon material that says Luke is more powerful than Vader, I will definetely accept he's more powerful.

[Beniboybling]

3. You know the real existence of this thread and it already served it's purpose.

To kill mine? If so then your attempts have been unsuccessful, I am sure that once the project restarts this thread would have run its course. But yes leaving/left, I'm merely an amused spectator, don't mind me.

[Permaximum]

To kill mine? If so then your attempts have been unsuccessful, I am sure that once the project restarts this thread would have run its course. But yes leaving/left, I'm merely an amused spectator, don't mind me.

 

OFC not. It's one purpose was to inform people that there's new canon and the other thread deals with the old legends stuff while this one deals with the REAL Star Wars canon.

 

Shortly, the purpose that interests you was to inform people that your thread is not about the REAL Star Wars continuity. Besides, you wanted me to leave so I left.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Permaximum

[Beniboybling]

OFC not. It's one purpose was to inform people that there's new canon and the other thread deals with the old legends stuff while this one deals with the REAL Star Wars canon.

 

Shortly, the purpose that interests you was to inform people that your thread is not about the REAL Star Wars continuity. Besides, you wanted me to leave so I left.

Uh huh.

[tunewalker]

To prove your bias, even Savage Opress could force choke 2 people at the same time and they were Dooku and Ventress . You somehow think force choking 2 people is a better feat than force choking a guy from miles away through holocom. That logic is flawed.

 

I meant the movies for Obi-Wan's force push. Do you remember what he did to Grevious?

 

BTW I forgot to say Yoda obviously deflected Sidious' force lightning clearly as we've seen in the third movie. Sidious was in pain. What did Luke do? Deflect? No. Absorb? Not even that... Resisting like Vader? Absolutely not.

 

If you show me one "absolute statement" in any canon material that says Luke is more powerful than Vader, I will definetely accept he's more powerful.

 

Not in the original movies. You've missed the point, just watch IV V And VI, Luke is the FIRST time we see choking more then 1 person. The ONLY reason you dont see feats from Luke that you are Looking for is the limit of the Tech that is it. Savage did that in a Cartoon that came YEARS after, with better technology so on and so forth. ALL YOU ARE SEEING, is the lack of tech in the OT.

 

That's what my point is.

 

Luke is stronger then Vader as per all the statements of the movies. Do you have ANY proof that Vader was weaker in RotJ? I know you dont, because none exists ALL suplements to the movies, and the movies themselves state OR SHOW, contrary to that.

 

Compare Vader's fighting in Episode IV to how he fights in Episode VI, which is better, Episode VI. Shows progression from IV to VI. Now you can say well compare VI to II or III and II and III look better, which would be a good argument if it wasnt for IV specifically saying "when I left you I was but the learner now I am the master" meaning the DIFFERENCE between IV, V and VI and I, II, III TCW AND the comics, is Technology to tell the story. IE IV, V, And VI are intended to be BETTER then they appear.

 

If you read what I ACTUALLY write instead of interjecting stuff that I AM NOT talking about you would have seen this.

 

All you see is the technology behind the series, not the intended story. Luke surpassing his Father is Integral to the plot, having Luke under Vader or under Obi-wan or under Dooku is in Direct Conflict WITH CANON. You do it, and your entire thing is a farce ignoring the entire point of the movies, but we already know what the TCW Fanboy in you is going to say/ Do. You like big flashy Special Effects, and that's it, your enjoying the action, and missing everything else.

[Permaximum]

Hahaha You really made me smile. In any Star Wars material OT is by far my favourite. And I am even close to calling myself an OT Luke Skywalker fan. On the contrary I could be classified as TCW hater However, I put aside my emotions and try to be objective here. I hate special effects and CGI btw.

 

Your thoughts about me are not just wrong. I stand at the complete opposite side of what you think. This is why I say you are biased.

 

So, you could finally come to technology which I completely expected from the beginning. You applied a logic there but you didn't apply the same logic for Vader's fighting difference between epsiode IV and VI. There's a clear technology advancement between those movies too.

 

Since you've come to technology because you couldn't find an absolute statement and couldn't put similar feats, this discussion should end here. We're right now speculating on "with better technology what would the directors put on the screen" to prove one force user is more powerful. You're far gone to prove Luke is more powerful than Vader.

 

But here's the deal. Find more people that support Luke with detailed arguments, then you win

[tunewalker]

Hahaha You really made me smile. In any Star Wars material OT is by far my favourite. And I am even close to calling myself an OT Luke Skywalker fan. On the contrary I could be classified as TCW hater However, I put aside my emotions and try to be objective here. I hate special effects and CGI btw.

 

Your thoughts about me are not just wrong. I stand at the complete opposite side of what you think. This is why I say you are biased.

 

So, you could finally come to technology which I completely expected from the beginning. You applied a logic there but you didn't apply the same logic for Vader's fighting difference between epsiode IV and VI. There's a clear technology advancement between those movies too.

 

Since you've come to technology because you couldn't find an absolute statement and couldn't put similar feats, this discussion should end here. We're right now speculating on "with better technology what would the directors put on the screen" to prove one force user is more powerful. You're far gone to prove Luke is more powerful than Vader.

 

But here's the deal. Find more people that support Luke with detailed arguments, then you win

 

6 years vs 13 Years. Also Vader in the movies the guy doing the fighting, is a master swordsman... walking on stilts. It doesnt matter how good you are, there is only so much a guy on stilts can do. (yes David prowse is a body builder and the man in the suit MOST of the time, but the saber battles is done by the guy who did the choreography and master swordsman)

 

The amount of stuff we have that shows Luke got stronger since Episode V I cant Link 12 hours worth of movies. Every Single Line in the movies proves what I am saying. Because that's the issue. I cant link you ONE statement. I ahve ALREADY linked you FIVE.

 

 

"Indeed you are powerful as the emperor has foreseen"

 

"He could destroy us", "the Son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi"

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSGgODCqpFQ

"so be it, Jedi"

 

"Good Good, your hate has made you powerful, now fulfill your destiny and take you father's place at my side"

Parallels PERFECTLY with

"soon I will have a new apprentice one far younger and more powerful" Its supposed to, the 2 statements means the same thing.

 

You might not be all about TCW and the Prequels but you BLINDED by the same thing those fans are, flashy effects. Logic is NOT what you have done thus far. If it was this conversation never would have started. You would have Luke over Vader. There is no LOGICAL anything that can be excused for putting Luke bellow him in current Canon. Did Luke win? Yes. Was it because he was noted as getting stronger? YES. Then shut the hell up that's the end of the story, any discrepencies between Vader before and Vader there is simple "technology" If you are going to say "well tech got better between IV and VI and we have nothing saying Vader got any better", well guess what we have nothing saying he got worse either. So if he was STILL in the height of his power and the ONLY thing that changed was Tech AND LUKE (because he is specifically noted as getting better about 5 or 6 times in the movie, ONE OF WHICH (Palpatine) straight out states Luke > Vader) Then Luke is stronger, REGARDLESS of Tech changes in abilities of later media (like Vader Crushing AT-AT's)

 

For me to show you how HARD the films try to BASH in to your head that Luke surpasses his father, we would LITERALLY need to examine every scene of all 6 movies, especially 5 and 6. I can not link 4 hours + of footage that all say the EXACT SAME THING. You may call yourself a FAN of the OT, but you did not understand a second of the heroes journey.

 

Edit: I am not putting Luke at number 1, I am just putting him over Vader. When you provide a LOGICAL argument as to why Luke is under Vader, with an actual QUOTE, you let me know, because i have already provided more then 10 quotes all pointing to the same thing. In Logic, I have already won, but of course your ability to see that is as blinded by Special effects as ever.

 

 

Edit 2: Seriously 1 scene, or one supplement that says Vader over RotJ Luke. find it I will even let you use the EU. I can help you from wasting your time, because you wont find it because it doesnt exist. Yet EVERY supplemental material and the Movie itself states Luke > Vader. That's the entire point of the heroes journey.....

 

look at the stuff you have NEVER responded to

 

1. There is nothing saying Vader got weaker, with nothing saying stronger, and nothing stating weaker the safe bet is to keep as is.

2. Correction They sent him to destroy Vader, AND his Emperor. (only a fully trained jedi with the force as his ally with Conquer Vader and his emperor, Do not underestimate the powers of the emperor or suffer your fathers fate you will)

3. No the fight in RotJ shows this, and not JUST the ending, please go watch the whole thing.

6. Luke Never intended to Kill VADER in the final fight. "I cant do it Ben, I cant kill my own Father" "there is good in him, I can turn him back, to the good side" And yet look at the start of that fight, no full on rage attack, both holding back, who has the edge? oh right Luke. Then Luke takes an even FURTHER step back going, "I will not fight you father" and from there does 0 attacks, and yet who was it that once again takes the High ground? Oh Right Luke, he doesnt give an inch and stays in complete tactical control of the fight from start to finish.

7. Yes he did, AND TROUNCED HIM. Vader at this point WOULD NOT have been holding back, and is shown LESS holding back then Luke was after the "I will not fight you father" in which Vader STILL couldnt take the edge. It makes no sense for Vader to hold back against a stronger opponent when the point is to show him that unless he gives in and switches sides there is no Stopping Vader or the Emperor because of how powerful the dark side is. If he lost he Lost fair and square.

8. And who else in canon has shown the ability to Deflect Sidious's Lightning with out a lightsaber? Oh right NOBODY. Yoda tried to contain it just to get blasted off the edge. Windu needed his saber, and failed the moment he didnt have it. No one not even Yoda has stopped Sidious Lightning in Canon with out a lightsaber. What feats has Vader done better then Luke? At the beginning of the movie he mind tricks Bib Fortuna, the right hand man of Jabba the Hutt. It takes Anakin, Obi-wan AND Windu to get information out of Cad Bane. In fact after the first hand wave, Luke doesnt even move his hand to do the mind trick any more. In all other instances in current canon, they move their hand for every trick. Luke fights a Barge full of skilled and trained mercenaries, in Jabba's henchmen, we are talking about 30 guys. Lando is nearly knocked into the pit, Han is blind, Leia is chained to Jabba himself, Chewie is trying to help Han pick up Lando, which means he has to do it basically single handedly. The only times the Jedi like Obi-wan or Anakin have to face these kinds of odds they are fighting a bunch of B1's or OOM droids, which have been shown throughout, they are worthless comic relief villains. Mercenaries on the other hand in ALL canon sources have been shown to be good and skilled individuals. Gomoreans may be dumb, but they arent to be messed with and Luke still takes all these guys down. Do I think Yoda, Sidious and Maybe even Talzin and Windu have better feats ya maybe, or at the very least on par feats, but Vader, Obi-wan, Dooku? HELL NO. Vader Lost to Luke, he would not have held back in the final engagement it doesnt make sense for his stated goal, in the points when he WAS holding back, Luke was holding back just as much OR MORE And he STILL took the advantage. Vader killed Dooku, and was listed by Palpatine to be "far younger and more powerful" hell those movies Paraleles Luke's journey... BECAUSE ITS SUPPOSED TO.

 

Episode I Anakin blows up Space Station Saving the Day

Episode IV Luke Blows up Space Station Saving the Day

Episode II Anakin overconfident in his abilities rushes to face the Evil Count Dookum and loses his right hand in the process.

Episode V Luke Rushes to face Darth Vader overconfident in his abilities and Loses his Right Hand in the process.

Episode III The movie tells us Anakin has gotten stronger since he last faced Count Dooku at the end of the fight he gives in to the Dark Side a little and cuts off Dooku's hands all while Palpatine WATCHES. He has the Count beat and Palpatine tells him to Kill Dooku. He hesitates for a bit, but then DOES SO. Later in the Movie he takes Dooku's place at Palpatine's side.

Episode VI The Movie Tells us Luke has gotten stronger since he last faced Darth Vader at the end of the fight he gives in to the Dark Side a little and cuts off Vader's Hand all while Palpatine WATCHES. He has Vader beat and Palpatine tells him to Kill Vader and thus take Vader's place at Palpatine's side. He hesitates for a bit and then throws down his saber, saying once again he will never turn to the darkside.

 

and that is the ENTIRE POINT of the movies. Anakin and Luke walked the EXACT same path, but in the end where Anakin gave in to the darkness and becomes Darth Vader ushering in the Dark times, Luke cast off the Darkness and became a Jedi ushering in the END to the Dark times. The Journey of Anakin becoming more powerful then Dooku, is as important to the story as Luke doing the same. It wasnt about the villains getting weaker, in fact all evidence to the contrary exist as the Villains become more in control and just moments away from sure victory, but its about our heroes progression and the choices they make.

 

 

That's a lot of stuff you're just ignoring. Why? Cus in the OT they didnt have the tech to make a Force User crush giant machines... and Luke never found himself in the position to need to. Because in the OT they didnt have the tech to show lightning deflection of resistance of any kind. Really that's your whole reason as to why Luke cant be better then Vader when Palpatines

 

"your hate has made you powerful, now fullfil your destiny and take your fathers place at my side" IS an Absolute statement of Luke > Vader.

 

You have no argument. You never have.

Edited March 18, 2015 by tunewalker

[tunewalker]

What does luke accomplish in episode V?

 

Nothing he fails at everything he tries to do.

 

Why have a hero fail at everything?

 

To set up the villain as a real threat that is difficult to overcome as well as set up the difference coming at the end of the story.

 

What does Luke Accomplish at the beginning of Episode VI?

He rescues Han and the group almost single handedly and kills an even bigger monster to the one that nearly caused his death in Episode V. Setting up the contrast between V, and VI.

 

 

Aside From defeating Vader at the end of Episode VI what does our Hero accomplish in the climax of the movie?

Nothing Absolutely nothing. Meaning the WHOLE heroes journey was setting up for the moment when he confronts, defeats, and then lets Vader live. The Entire Purpose of Luke's story and the Entire Purpose of his Character is to surpass his father. Saying he DIDNT surpass his father, means his character might as well not exist since that is his ONLY purpose in the story.

 

 

Why show Vader do all these amazing things that NEITHER Luke or Vader ever showed later on?

Because writers kept making other characters stronger and stronger, so writers who continue Vader's story needed to make him the legitimate threat he is SUPPOSED to be in the OT, thus creating escalation. This does not make Vader weak in the OT, it sets up what he was CAPABLE of in the OT and sets up what LUKE surpassed in the OT.

 

Luke Surpassing Vader is the entire point of the Character. Vader's entire point of existance in the story is to be an obstacle to be overcome by Luke, by taking away Luke > Vader you take away both characters reason for existing in the Story.

 

 

"your hate has made you powerful, now fullfill your destiny and take your fathers place at my side", as well as several other statements ARE absolute statements saying Luke > Vader.

[tunewalker]

Lets put it yet ANOTHER way.

 

We get why follow Luke in Episode IV, he is the one that gets the droids, rescues the princess and blows up the Death Star.

 

But Why follow him in Episode V?

 

What he is doing has nothing to do with the Galaxy at Large, heck Even Vader chasing him has little do with the Rebellion vs The Empire. In addition our "hero" fails at everything he does. Why not Follow Wedge? who doesnt get shot down at Hoth, and Topples Walkers, and while our "heroes" are getting chased around the galaxy or training in a swamp, he is rendezvousing with the Rebel Fleet, and doing missions to further the goal of the Rebels against the Empire.

 

In episode VI, if Luke's purpose wasnt to Surpass his father and we didnt follow him in Episode V as he is no longer the Hero. Why follow him here? Again its Wedge that takes out the power regulator and Lando that makes the final shot. Why havent we been following Wedge.

 

 

Luke isnt who I am a Fan of, I am a fan of the character he stands for. I am a fan of his role in the story. Its why I like other shows like Avatar the Last Airbender. Aang and Luke share the exact same role.

 

Taking away Luke's Victory over Vader is LITERALLY Character Assassination, as it is the Moment that his entire Journey is leading up to.

 

Atonement with the Father[edit]

In this step the person must confront and be initiated by whatever holds the ultimate power in his or her life. In many myths and stories this is the father, or a father figure who has life and death power. This is the center point of the journey. All the previous steps have been moving into this place, all that follow will move out from it. Although this step is most frequently symbolized by an encounter with a male entity, it does not have to be a male; just someone or thing with incredible power.

 

 

The Ultimate Boon[edit]

The ultimate boon is the achievement of the goal of the quest. It is what the person went on the journey to get. All the previous steps serve to prepare and purify the person for this step, since in many myths the boon is something transcendent like the elixir of life itself, or a plant that supplies immortality, or the holy grail.

 

The Ultimate Boon is " I am a Jedi, like my Father before me." That's what he started the Journey for in Episode IV, and defeating his father, confronting the "Father figure that has Life and Death Power" and coming out the other side purified. Is the entire purpose of the story.

 

 

I dont know what else i need to quote really, between proper interpretations of the Material, Character quotes that bash you over the head with the Fact that Luke is better then the last Time he faced Vader, setting up the Fact that Luke surpasses his Father. To the very essence of the story. there is only 1 LOGICAL conclusion. Luke surpassed his father. That's the whole purpose of the story. Ignoring it, is to ignore the entire purpose of 2 of the most important characters in star wars. Ignoring it, is to ignore Star Wars Canon.

[tunewalker]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/ReturnOfTheJedi

 

Curb-Stomp Battle: Several.

Luke and his friends tear through Jabba's guards on the sail barge.

The Imperial navy curbstomps the Rebel fleet until they figure out a strategy to counter-attack.

Luke holds back against Vader for a long time and tries to avoid fighting him, but finally get provoked into an Unstoppable Rage and defeats him.

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CurbStompBattle

[Permaximum]

I've read all the chapters in your book about Luke Skywalker's power.

 

None of those quotes come close to mention in any way or form that Luke was stronger than Vader. It just means Luke got stronger since episode V and he had become strong in episode VI. That's it. You can't read those quotes as he became more powerful than Vader.

 

I'm sorry my friend but you got the wrong idea about Star Wars saga. It isn't about Luke. As a whole it's about Anakin Skywalker. If we only consider the OT, it's about Anakin Skywalker's son redeeming his father. Not about surpassing him in power.

 

As for tvtropes.org, I don't care about an opinion you could find on the net. If you go down that route you can find thousands.

 

Let's end this here, let the others decide on this mater. You obviously made your mind and it is harder to crack a prejudice than an atom.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Permaximum

[Ghisallo]

Nvm 10 character

 

Actually... I think this proves the issue about subjectivity. I see what Tune sees and agree. You do not see what Tune sees and disagree, yet we are all reading the same thing. /shrug.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Ghisallo