The Most Powerful Force Users in the Galaxy (CANON)

[Alimarius]

Firstly, Sidious did not "stomp" her.

 

She was weakened from the ritual that returned her to life, and it took both him and Dooku working together to actually overpower her.

 

What's more, the supposed skill that she lacked was witnessed by Sidious while she possessed someone elses body, and was using a curved hilt that she had never before fought with, hardly an indication of her actual ability.

 

I was talking about the lightsaber portion of the fight only. Furthermore, there is no indication that wielding a curved hilt saber (which wouldn't be a problem for any seasoned Force sensitive, especially considering that Barris Offee had no issue with Ventress' lightsabers) or possesing Dooku's body hindered her skil to any extent, not to mention that she was on Dathomir which is the center of her power.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Alimarius

[Ghisallo]

That's speculation. There's many possible speculations one could make. You could also argue that Talzin wasn't taking Windu seriously. How so? Talzin never fought him before. She had no reason to take him seriously. She also didn't bother engaging him in a manner that she specializes in. That would actually be based on fact. Truth is we have seen Windu try to end fights as quickly as possible. She was going to engage regardless. She made that clear by phasing in a blade. After Windu broke the first saber lock he could have backed off there. He didn't. He tried to attack her again which once more didn't even make her move back a step.

 

These are the facts with zero speculation.

 

1) Windu is an offensive fighter who has proven in the past that he aims to end fights as quickly as possible.

 

2) Windu prefers to press the advantage. He's very offensive oriented. So are his students and contemporaries.

 

3) Windu tried to press the advantage not once but twice.

 

4) Windu was the first and only one to end up falling back.

 

5) Windu is a saber specialist who has defeated Sidious

 

6) Talzin does not specialize in using a sword. It is not her strongest skill-set.

 

7) Windu took shelter from her attack

 

There is no reason we should believe that Windu is a match for Talzin. In none of the above facts does Windu display an advantage. You can come up with speculation for this or that but in the end the fact is Windu did not have any edge over Talzin. You can't reasonably make the argument that Windu is more powerful than her or could have taken her in a straight fight. There's no evidence that can lead one to this conclusion logically.

 

You are COMPLETELY ignoring the point that an offensive fighter does NOT mean a stupid or a foolish fighter that charges head long into combat with no thought to the greater goal. Against Sidious Mace could go all out at him. The mission there was to either beat him into submission and arrest, or kill. the fight against Talzin had completely different goals.

 

I was a soldier once...I trained and did directly attack the enemy, the only goal being to take them out one way or the other. I have been a cop for 18 years. yes there have been times where it is balls to the wall, take the guy down and arrest him. HOWEVER I have had to place myself between a victim and their armed assailant and retreat... NOT because I did not want to take out the bad guy (who was in a window, behind cover with a gun) but because my primary mission there was to get the victim to safety.

 

So with Mace we have similar scenarios...

 

1. Sidious, balls to the wall, disable/take him out.

2. Talzin, the mission is NOT to take her out, it's to draw her away from the ritual, to bait her if necessary to achieve the goal, so that Jar Jar (god help me he saved the day) can free the sacrifice.

 

Tactics and Strategy only take a back seat to blood thirstiness when you are an idiot or an uncontrollable psychopath. Mace is not an idiot. You are viewing him like he is a Norse Berserker and not one of the most thoughtful Jedi of his day (being Grand Master and all of that).

[Beniboybling]

Guys does it really matter? Any sensible person who believes the novelisations and Legends canon valid and relevant knows that Talzin is more powerful, if not significantly more powerful than Windu. So the fact is Talzin is more likely than not going to be faster and stronger than Windu, and could therefore - regardless of whether she did or did not in their duel, probably have put Windu on the back foot. I think that is something we can all agree upon, no?

 

So, unless some attempts to make an argument that the fact that Windu didn't attempt to deflect Talzin's lightning but did Sidious, proves that Windu > Talzin (outside of the bubble that is this thread) I don't think there is really an issue.

 

Nor do I see the point in wasting time proving to the OP the many ways his "canon only" rule is inadequate, and will only lead to dumb@ss placements. I think that's pretty obvious, so let's not squabble when we're on the same page.

[Ghisallo]

Guys does it really matter? Any sensible person who believes the novelisations and Legends canon valid and relevant knows that Talzin is more powerful, if not significantly more powerful than Windu. So the fact is Talzin is more likely than not going to be faster and stronger than Windu, and could therefore - regardless of whether she did or did not in their duel, probably have put Windu on the back foot. I think that is something we can all agree upon, no?

 

So, unless some attempts to make an argument that the fact that Windu didn't attempt to deflect Talzin's lightning but did Sidious, proves that Windu > Talzin (outside of the bubble that is this thread) I don't think there is really an issue.

 

Nor do I see the point in wasting time proving to the OP the many ways his "canon only" rule is inadequate, and will only lead to dumb@ss placements. I think that's pretty obvious, so let's not squabble when we're on the same page.

 

In the last paragraph you say something telling BUT I don't think you actually realize it. In using Canon we get quantifiable results. So yes a character we came to love from old sources can well be substantially changed. This only results in dumb***** placements however if we can not let go of our preconceptions. Yes these preconceptions were for the most part created by others BUT that influence has been removed.

 

What you see as a dumb***** placement is based on a world that, in terms of Canon, no longer exists. I sympathize... I LOVE Thrawn... I loved the stories of the Dawn of the Jedi. I read the stories of Ulic Qel Droma and SCREAMED bloody murder when he fell and killed his brother then cheered when he redeemed himself and became one with the force. However I need to put all of that aside now and it is frustrating. At the same time it is exciting because I don't know what to expect.

[Selenial]

Guys does it really matter? Any sensible person who believes the novelisations and Legends canon valid and relevant knows that Talzin is more powerful, if not significantly more powerful than Windu. So the fact is Talzin is more likely than not going to be faster and stronger than Windu, and could therefore - regardless of whether she did or did not in their duel, probably have put Windu on the back foot. I think that is something we can all agree upon, no?

 

So, unless some attempts to make an argument that the fact that Windu didn't attempt to deflect Talzin's lightning but did Sidious, proves that Windu > Talzin (outside of the bubble that is this thread) I don't think there is really an issue.

 

Nor do I see the point in wasting time proving to the OP the many ways his "canon only" rule is inadequate, and will only lead to dumb@ss placements. I think that's pretty obvious, so let's not squabble when we're on the same page.

 

The only reason I'm posting in here is because I've thought of some arguments that will forge the funniest power ranking list in the history of Star Wars.

[Beniboybling]

In the last paragraph you say something telling BUT I don't think you actually realize it. In using Canon we get quantifiable results. So yes a character we came to love from old sources can well be substantially changed. This only results in dumb***** placements however if we can not let go of our preconceptions. Yes these preconceptions were for the most part created by others BUT that influence has been removed.

 

What you see as a dumb***** placement is based on a world that, in terms of Canon, no longer exists. I sympathize... I LOVE Thrawn... I loved the stories of the Dawn of the Jedi. I read the stories of Ulic Qel Droma and SCREAMED bloody murder when he fell and killed his brother then cheered when he redeemed himself and became one with the force. However I need to put all of that aside now and it is frustrating. At the same time it is exciting because I don't know what to expect.

Do you mean to say that Windu > Palpatine is logical?

 

Please don't try to sympathise with me when you don't know me or my reasons for valuing the EU.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Permaximum]

I would participate, but you refuse to accept the novelisations as canon, which is problematic. Its problematic because, especially in regards to in-depth discussion - the novels are a vital supplement to the movie material, which is in the end inadequate in fully conveying every aspect of the scenes it depicts, by way of the visual medium it relies on.

 

The movies raise a lot of questions, and more often than not they fail to give answers, the visual medium remaining often vague and difficult to decipher, the audience is in many respects left to guess. The novelisations however, were a solution to that, providing answers to many of the questions raised, and clearing up various misconceptions.

 

These answers were endorsed and directly edited/approve by George Lucas, as supplements to the films:

Though I did not personally watch him do it, I received from LFL a Word document of Revenge of the Sith with Mr Lucas' edits, which was distinct from the edits I'd already gotten from Sue Rostoni and Howard Roffman and the rest of the LFL crew, and this document was edited in such a detailed fashion that even individual words had been struck off and his preferred replacements inserted, as well as some passages wholly excised and some dialogue replaced with the dialogue from the screenplay. If that's not line-editing, I don't know what is.

 

What's in that book is there because Mr. Lucas wanted it to be there. What's not in that book is not there because Mr. Lucas wanted it gone.

 

Period.

 

--Matthew Stover, Jedi Council Forums

By taking them out of the equation, and considering the films in their absence, we willfully embrace ignorance, and attempt to construct an absolute list from an inadequate source, and I'm afraid that's something I cannot do.

 

For example, we all know the only reason Windu was able to contend with Sidious is because of Vaapad, because he was able to channel Palpatine's energy and use it for his own purposes. Whereas in reality, Sidious totally eclipses Windu in ability. TCW knows that as well, and that is why Windu is depicted as nowhere near Sidious in ability.

 

But Vaapad isn't part of the new Canon, everyone knows Windu uses Vaapad, even Lucas, but Vaapad is never mentioned in the movies (for purely cinematic reasons) and so by ignoring Legends, it no longer exists.

 

This is what happens when we pretend the EU no longer exists, and is all fan fiction.

 

I have little doubt this will do nothing to change your opinions, but if this thread ever actually kicks off I can assure you you will run into many more problems like this, and the final list will ultimately be laughably illogical (see Windu > Sidious) because the people actually producing the content, do not regard the EU as irrelevant as you do.

 

Official Disney Statement:

While Lucasfilm always strived to keep the stories created for the EU consistent with our film and television content as well as internally consistent, Lucas always made it clear that he was not beholden to the EU. He set the films he created as the canon. This includes the six Star Wars episodes, and the many hours of content he developed and produced in Star Wars: The Clone Wars. These stories are the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align.

 

I don't care about what should be canon or not or what problems current canon may cause for EU fanboys, I only care about what IS canon. If you're not OK with that I suggest you to leave this thread.

[Permaximum]

Your "What's Canon" list doesn't even include everything that is a part of the new canon.

 

That made me laugh.

 

Tell me what's missing please. I don't pretend I could catch up with every new Star Wars material as of today. Still, if you can't provide a satisfying answer I suggest you to leave this thread because you just lied for a hidden purpose.

 

EU Fanboys and Disney haters; please leave this thread and do not try to sabotage it if you love your moms.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Permaximum

[Beniboybling]

Official Disney Statement:

 

I don't care about what should be canon or not or what problems current canon may cause for EU fanboys, I only care about what IS canon. If you're not OK with that I suggest you to leave this thread.

Don't worry, I've said my peace, I'm leaving.

 

Have fun and good luck.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Permaximum]

I've also never heard of "The Rebels"

 

Me neither. It was a typo that's corrected now. Pardon me for English is not my native language. It's just one of a few languages I tried to learn later.

[Permaximum]

Don't worry, I've said my peace, I'm leaving.

 

Have fun and good luck.

 

Good riddance!

[Selenial]

Tell me what's missing please. I don't pretend I could catch up with every new Star Wars material as of today. Still, if you can't provide a satisfying answer I suggest you to leave this thread because you just lied for a hidden purpose.

 

Son of Dathomir issues 1-4.

[Permaximum]

Son of Dathomir issues 1-4.

 

I corrected the list before your post but thank you. Since it was published by Dark Horse Comics I was not sure if it was canon or not so after reading your first post I double checked it and it turned out canon.

[Permaximum]

What about Talzin? She made a joke of count dooku and completely pushed Windu back with ease. In fact, mace, who is a "Sword" specialist completely backed off from her in a brief engagement in a "duel" in which she doesn't specialize. If Windu > Sidious in your mind wouldn't that make Talzin > All? Given how easily she bested Windu? Without the novels you can't use "vaapad" in his Sidious duel. So where does this place Talzin? He also blocked Sidious lightning but ran from Talzin's attack. In fact, he took shelter against it like one would against a blaster.

 

 

 

Can we make a case for Talzin being number 1 in this thread?

 

We can't say Mother Talzin overpowered Windu there since he didn't expect the lightning. Also in the end of the duel Windu got what he wanted and Mother Talzin lost her existence.

 

Still, I can't say Windu was "stronger" than Talzin. But he was more powerful because he outsmarted her. As I said before combat ability is a big and important part of "power" but it's not everything. Power includes more things such as intelligence, influence and the ability to get the job done at all costs.

 

However, there can be arguments made especially about power vs strength issue, so I included her in the nominees for the most powerful force user.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Permaximum

[tunewalker]

If it's not canon, then it's simply fan fiction nothing else. EU has never been canon in fact. It was just EU fanboys tried to get a few words from Lucas to believe it in their minds.

 

As for Luke as number 1... The speed of advancement is a good point but we can't know if he could keep up with the pace. Besides, we know that he got an accelarated training with basics. Still, in the last movie he was nowhere near the most powerful force user.

 

Also, that thing about Luke trying to prevent Sidious' lightning from killing him has not been in any canon material.

 

Prime Yoda, Mace, Palpatine, Vader, Kenobi and Dooku are all more powerful than Luke Skywalker.

 

Luke barely become a jedi knight in the end of the sixth movie and he's never shown anything but lightsaber skills despite there has been a need for greater skills several times in the episode V and VI in his fights with Vader and his confrontation with Palpatine. In an all out power showdown, all the others I mentioned has shown far more greater feats.

 

Luke Surpasses Vader in Episode VI, that is the point of the story. "your hate has made you powerful", "You must confront Vader" "Do not underestimate the powers of the emperor." so on and so forth.

 

Vader is stronger then Anakin "when I left you I was but the learner now I am the master" According to Star Wars insiders (which are a look into the scripts) we can tell Luke and Vader were getting better from there, meaning Vader was at his Best in RotJ when Luke fought him. And Luke won. There is no "if, ands or buts" here Luke beats and becomes more powerful then his father. Luke CAN NOT be bellow Vader.

 

By this extention according to CANON, that this is supposed to be about.

 

Luke > Vader> Dooku/ Obi-wan.

 

You may not like his progression BUT that is the point of the movies. Is Sidious Still stronger? yes.

 

Also as Sel pointed out with Son of Dathomir, I am pretty sure the fight between Sidious and Talzin is Canon as well, though I do agree with CS on Windu. Windu is a Jedi master, he knows how to prioritize goals. The goal was save the ambassador, before what ever bad thing was going to happen, happened. He had no garantee that he could defeat such a powerful character as Talzin fast enough to still accomplish the main goal. By getting her out of the way on the other hand, his back up Jar- Jar could, he had the weapon to take out the others more then fast enough to accomplish that goal. He could defeat Talzin at his pleasure, but rescuing the Senator was far more important then any win or loss against an enemy such as Talzin.

 

This MAY not be stated in any official Canon thing but

 

"Conquer Stubbornness

 

Jedi would always have been ready to accept defeat if the cost of winning was greater than the cost of losing. Jedi were taught that it was always best to end things peacefully than to win or lose.[4]"

 

 

Seriously though, this list will invalidate itself the moment Luke is under Vader, this is all you have to watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RFYoZ7H67A Go watch even the rest of RotJ. "There is still good in him, I can turn him back... to the good side" " I cant do it Ben, i cant kill my own Father" vs Vader's responses "You are unwise to lower your defenses." "if you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny" "Luke at 0 points is at a disadvantage in that entire fight. VADER not Luke needs better force feats to save him from Luke's onslaught to put Luke at a disadvantage, but both at the start of the fight and even in the middle when Luke is JUST defending, Vader can still not get an edge. Luke forces Vader down the Stairs, taking the high ground, and then drops his Gaurd. Vader was to slow to fully take advantage of that dropped gaurd, Luke willingly backs up AND takes the high ground again, this time passively rather then aggressively. As soon as he gets Aggressive again, Vader tries to fight back but is just pushed back and stumbles unable to bear the power being brought down by Luke, Luke who is smaller, Luke who has only 1 cybernetic hand vs Vader who has cybernetically enhanced strength is taller has greater Reach and is strong enough to lift a man off the ground with just 1 hand, and is Overpowered by his son. Yes luke doesnt seem to do anything against Palpatine, but he threw away his weapon, the same thing happened to Luke with no Saber as what happened to Windu with no Saber.

[Rhyltran]

You are COMPLETELY ignoring the point that an offensive fighter does NOT mean a stupid or a foolish fighter that charges head long into combat with no thought to the greater goal. Against Sidious Mace could go all out at him. The mission there was to either beat him into submission and arrest, or kill. the fight against Talzin had completely different goals.

 

I was a soldier once...I trained and did directly attack the enemy, the only goal being to take them out one way or the other. I have been a cop for 18 years. yes there have been times where it is balls to the wall, take the guy down and arrest him. HOWEVER I have had to place myself between a victim and their armed assailant and retreat... NOT because I did not want to take out the bad guy (who was in a window, behind cover with a gun) but because my primary mission there was to get the victim to safety.

 

So with Mace we have similar scenarios...

 

1. Sidious, balls to the wall, disable/take him out.

2. Talzin, the mission is NOT to take her out, it's to draw her away from the ritual, to bait her if necessary to achieve the goal, so that Jar Jar (god help me he saved the day) can free the sacrifice.

 

Tactics and Strategy only take a back seat to blood thirstiness when you are an idiot or an uncontrollable psychopath. Mace is not an idiot. You are viewing him like he is a Norse Berserker and not one of the most thoughtful Jedi of his day (being Grand Master and all of that).

 

You're basing real life military training on star wars? Have you seen the clone wars? 90% of the fights would be nonsensical in real life. We see some duels take place where the enemy is surrounded by twenty guards and the guards just let the protagonist and the opponent duel it out. Windu is not the grandmaster. Yoda is the grandmaster.

 

Not to mention you're ignoring how Windu is portrayed in every incident. Windu has been known to win fights as quickly as possible. To defeat his opponents as quickly as possible. Very few are capable of withstanding him without being driven back and if Talzin wasn't that much of an issue he could have driven her off the plat form. You're still ignoring the fact that he aggressively charged her. You're also ignoring the fact that when the saber lock was first broken he attempted to do so again and failed.

 

You have zero evidence that Windu had any advantage against Talzin. In a debate you must argue based on what you know for sure instead of something that can be argued with heavy speculation. You suggest he wasn't going all out. Prove it. Prove he wasn't going all out. Give evidence that he might be more powerful than Talzin. What feats does he display in the original posters canon examples that gives ANY implication that he might be more powerful than Talzin? Any at all?

 

We can't say Mother Talzin overpowered Windu there since he didn't expect the lightning. Also in the end of the duel Windu got what he wanted and Mother Talzin lost her existence.

 

Still, I can't say Windu was "stronger" than Talzin. But he was more powerful because he outsmarted her. As I said before combat ability is a big and important part of "power" but it's not everything. Power includes more things such as intelligence, influence and the ability to get the job done at all costs.

 

However, there can be arguments made especially about power vs strength issue, so I included her in the nominees for the most powerful force user.

 

Does it count as outsmarting when, in your example, he had help? This wasn't a job Windu did on his own. Going by this Sidious should be on top of the list then. Didn't he pick a more advantageous position against Yoda? Didn't he engage Windu with the knowledge that Anakin would be on his way? Didn't he trick Anakin into protecting him against Windu? If intelligence matters then clearly he had an edge but it doesn't matter. Windu didn't defeat Talzin. He managed to survive long enough for others to destroy the ritual. How can you claim someone is more powerful when they had help? Do two on one fights count now? Three on one? I mean, they thought to bring more people, right?

 

Further if we're only using the sources you list I propose putting Vader higher than Sidious. Sure he thought he needed Luke's help but perhaps that was only in his mind out of his fear of Sidious. After all one of the newest sources that is canon has Vader lifting and crushing an AT AT with one hand when Sidious was struggling on throwing podiums which are far lighter. In vader's highest display he has shown more raw power than in your canon. I propose the following list..

 

Talzin

Vader

Yoda

Windu

Sidious

 

and you can fill the gaps in here.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Permaximum]

I want to clarify, this is not my canon. This is the official canon. This is what we have to live with whether you like it or not.

[Ghisallo]

Just on the "real military" bit. More than once in Books and in the movies the main characters have had to chose between what they want to do (chase and/or straight up beat down the bad guy) or stick with the plan and withdraw, bait the bad guy, if necessary let the bad guy get away in order to accomplish this mission. When you watch this scene it is blatantly clear that this is what he is doing...not just via inference but from what he says to Jar Jar before he engages Talzin.

 

Also I can get the whole "comparing RL physics to Star Wars" (unless they went to the trouble of explaining the pseudoscience somewhere.). However again, Star Wars is replete with characters doing exactly what I explain...using good strategy and tactics in service of the greater goal/mission.

[Permaximum]

As for wether the novelizations of the movies are canon or not, I think this will end the discussion:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127594/4446194-rg.png

 

So, in canon, and disregarding the notion that Sidious threw the fight, Mace still won because he was amped, and because he exploited a fear that wasn't Palpatine's to begin with.

 

No, the novelizations are not canon.

 

1. Del Rey tried to correct that tweet later.

2. They can't override Disney's official statement.

3. They have to sell their books somehow.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Permaximum

[Permaximum]

Luke Surpasses Vader in Episode VI, that is the point of the story. "your hate has made you powerful", "You must confront Vader" "Do not underestimate the powers of the emperor." so on and so forth.

 

Vader is stronger then Anakin "when I left you I was but the learner now I am the master" According to Star Wars insiders (which are a look into the scripts) we can tell Luke and Vader were getting better from there, meaning Vader was at his Best in RotJ when Luke fought him. And Luke won. There is no "if, ands or buts" here Luke beats and becomes more powerful then his father. Luke CAN NOT be bellow Vader.

 

By this extention according to CANON, that this is supposed to be about.

 

Luke > Vader> Dooku/ Obi-wan.

 

You may not like his progression BUT that is the point of the movies. Is Sidious Still stronger? yes.

 

Also as Sel pointed out with Son of Dathomir, I am pretty sure the fight between Sidious and Talzin is Canon as well, though I do agree with CS on Windu. Windu is a Jedi master, he knows how to prioritize goals. The goal was save the ambassador, before what ever bad thing was going to happen, happened. He had no garantee that he could defeat such a powerful character as Talzin fast enough to still accomplish the main goal. By getting her out of the way on the other hand, his back up Jar- Jar could, he had the weapon to take out the others more then fast enough to accomplish that goal. He could defeat Talzin at his pleasure, but rescuing the Senator was far more important then any win or loss against an enemy such as Talzin.

 

This MAY not be stated in any official Canon thing but

 

"Conquer Stubbornness

 

Jedi would always have been ready to accept defeat if the cost of winning was greater than the cost of losing. Jedi were taught that it was always best to end things peacefully than to win or lose.[4]"

 

 

Seriously though, this list will invalidate itself the moment Luke is under Vader, this is all you have to watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RFYoZ7H67A Go watch even the rest of RotJ. "There is still good in him, I can turn him back... to the good side" " I cant do it Ben, i cant kill my own Father" vs Vader's responses "You are unwise to lower your defenses." "if you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny" "Luke at 0 points is at a disadvantage in that entire fight. VADER not Luke needs better force feats to save him from Luke's onslaught to put Luke at a disadvantage, but both at the start of the fight and even in the middle when Luke is JUST defending, Vader can still not get an edge. Luke forces Vader down the Stairs, taking the high ground, and then drops his Gaurd. Vader was to slow to fully take advantage of that dropped gaurd, Luke willingly backs up AND takes the high ground again, this time passively rather then aggressively. As soon as he gets Aggressive again, Vader tries to fight back but is just pushed back and stumbles unable to bear the power being brought down by Luke, Luke who is smaller, Luke who has only 1 cybernetic hand vs Vader who has cybernetically enhanced strength is taller has greater Reach and is strong enough to lift a man off the ground with just 1 hand, and is Overpowered by his son. Yes luke doesnt seem to do anything against Palpatine, but he threw away his weapon, the same thing happened to Luke with no Saber as what happened to Windu with no Saber.

 

Most of your post is speculations based on assumptions. You can speculate but it would be better if you speculate on the facts.

 

Yes, Vader is stronger in episode IV. But we don't know if he gets stronger or worse in episodes V and VI. You can't base all of your arguments on an assumption that "Vader was at his prime in episode VI and he was going all out against Luke". IMO both of those points are wrong.

[Permaximum]

Does it count as outsmarting when, in your example, he had help? This wasn't a job Windu did on his own. Going by this Sidious should be on top of the list then. Didn't he pick a more advantageous position against Yoda? Didn't he engage Windu with the knowledge that Anakin would be on his way? Didn't he trick Anakin into protecting him against Windu? If intelligence matters then clearly he had an edge but it doesn't matter. Windu didn't defeat Talzin. He managed to survive long enough for others to destroy the ritual. How can you claim someone is more powerful when they had help? Do two on one fights count now? Three on one? I mean, they thought to bring more people, right?

 

Further if we're only using the sources you list I propose putting Vader higher than Sidious. Sure he thought he needed Luke's help but perhaps that was only in his mind out of his fear of Sidious. After all one of the newest sources that is canon has Vader lifting and crushing an AT AT with one hand when Sidious was struggling on throwing podiums which are far lighter. In vader's highest display he has shown more raw power than in your canon. I propose the following list..

 

Talzin

Vader

Yoda

Windu

Sidious

 

and you can fill the gaps in here.

 

1. Sidious didn't engage Windu with the knowledge that Anakin is on the way.

2. He tried but not necessarily tricked Anakin into protecting him from Windu. Anakin simply took the chance to save Padme.

3. Yes, foreseeing a fight beforehand and bringing more people is wise if the opponent is fool enough to go alone into a fight knowingly.

4. In the end Yoda won, Sidious lost. Yoda knew he failed to kill Sidious in time, so he ran away and trained Luke who redeemed Vader, thus Anakin killed Sidious once and for all.

---------------------

5. Your Vader argument is valid. Vader lost a duel to Obi-Wan but got stronger in episode IV. He killed Palpatine despite the fact that force lightning affects him most. Palpatine was unwise to think Vader would allow him kill his own son before him. He's shown similar or better TK skill in the Star Wars comic #2.

 

Talzin has no place there imo. She lost because of Windu in a few mins. Besides her, the list looks solid.

 

So, we have been talking about the most powerful force user at first. There have been supportive arguments made for Talzin, Vader, Sidious, Luke and Yoda. Let's try to eliminate some of those names.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Permaximum

[Rhyltran]

I want to clarify, this is not my canon. This is the official canon. This is what we have to live with whether you like it or not.

 

Regardless there's a strong case that Talzin is more powerful than Windu. I only used the "Your canon" bit in regards to this list and that you factor third party factors (other people assisting) and (being able to trick an opponent) as a measure of power. Which it shouldn't be when this is the "Most powerful force users." but if you want to go that route remember.

 

Dooku had a clear objective on geonosis (to escape when his forces were losing.) Obi Wan and Anakin showed up to prevent him from getting away. He defeated them both. Then he fights Yoda long enough to drop a heavy object in an attempt to crush Anakin/Obi Wan in order to escape. This forces Yoda to disengage the duel in order to save them allowing Dooku to complete his goal.

 

Given the "knowledge" aspect of your post can't one infer in that case Dooku > Yoda?

 

I mean Anakin, Obi Wan, and Yoda together/back to back couldn't prevent Dooku from escaping. That makes your system a bit flawed, don't you think?

 

These are some honest questions.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Permaximum]

Regardless there's a strong case that Talzin is more powerful than Windu. I only used the "Your canon" bit in regards to this list and that you factor third party factors (other people assisting) and (being able to trick an opponent) as a measure of power. Which it shouldn't be when this is the "Most powerful force users." but if you want to go that route remember.

 

Dooku had a clear objective on geonosis (to escape when his forces were losing.) Obi Wan and Anakin showed up to prevent him from getting away. He defeated them both. Then he fights Yoda long enough to drop a heavy object in an attempt to crush Anakin/Obi Wan in order to escape. This forces Yoda to disengage the duel in order to save them allowing Dooku to complete his goal.

 

Given the "knowledge" aspect of your post can't one infer in that case Dooku > Yoda?

 

I mean Anakin, Obi Wan, and Yoda together/back to back couldn't prevent Dooku from escaping. That makes your system a bit flawed, don't you think?

 

These are some honest questions.

 

Alright then. You have a point. What is the community's opinion on what "the most powerful force users" should mean? What are we talking about really? Pure combat ability or pure force power or the power to accomplish tasks or the power to manipulate events at galactic scale?

Edited March 17, 2015 by Permaximum

[Rhyltran]

Alright then. You have a point. What is the community's opinion on what "the most powerful force users" should mean? What are we talking about really? Pure combat ability or pure force power or the power to accomplish tasks or the power to manipulate events at galactic scale?

 

I'd say a mixture of combat ability/force power. I think influence/intelligence shouldn't be factored because it doesn't always matter. If someone ran into Sidious head on for example all that matters is how skilled/powerful you are in that situation. I think outside influences shouldn't matter but that's my opinion.

[Permaximum]

I'd say a mixture of combat ability/force power. I think influence/intelligence shouldn't be factored because it doesn't always matter. If someone ran into Sidious head on for example all that matters is how skilled/powerful you are in that situation. I think outside influences shouldn't matter but that's my opinion.

 

I have a feeling most would agree with you although I think "power" includes intelligence and influence. However, it would be easier to compare the force users according to their combat ability and force power. So I'm OK with that.

 

In that case I think a determined Vader could kill anyone as we saw him kill Palpatine with his bare one hand, while resisting the force lightning at full power. And his TK feat in the recent comic could be more than what we saw from Yoda and Sidious in ROTS. Agreements, disagreements?

Edited March 17, 2015 by Permaximum