SW infantry armor

[raandomname]

Super soldiers in extremelly strong power armor are a common phenomenon in most Sci Fi, yet Star Wars soldiers just almost exclusivelly use pretty standard armor.

 

The GAR is a good example, because it is neither poor like the Rebellion nor generally focuses on quanity over quality like the CIS or Empire (in some cases at least). While the clones have some great stuff, their armor itself is really weak, being easilly penetrated by a blaster in most cases. We even have the clones using prototype space trooper armor that has physical strengh enhanecements, a lot more armor and powerful integrated weapons at the Battle of New Bornalex and even as the weapon systems fail, the clones still win due to the super armor and super strenght that the armor grants them. So why werent all or at least most clones equipped with armor like this? I know that the Republic didnt have the most powerful economy, because many rich worlds joined the CIS, but still the expenses caused by this armor should have been managable, especially when the clones are almost all that stands between you and being enslaved by the CIS. And when the integrated weapons are too unreliable just put the clones into the armor and let them use their normal weapons.

 

And Space Trooper armor isnt the only possibility. Shouldnt we be seing things like personal shield generators, jetpacks or just exoskeletons a lot more commonly.

Edited February 20, 2015 by raandomname

[Aurbere]

The clones are already outfitted with the best weapons and armor money can buy. The more advanced stuff is likely an expense that the Republic wouldn't have been able to afford.

[DarthDymond]

The Republic may not have taken a quantity-over-quality approach relative to the CIS or Empire, but they were still outfitting huge numbers of troops and would have to take a cost/benefit analysis of whether supplying 'power armor' (or personal shield generators, etc.) was really going to increase the overall effectiveness of the fighting force as much as spending those resources on cloning more troops or other material would.

 

It probably boiled down to choosing between spending the same amount of resources to have each batch:

• Clone 1,000,000 troops and supply them all with power armor that gives them a 35-to-1 effectiveness ratio vs battle droids.
  

or

• Clone 2,000,000 troops and supply them all with 'regular' armor that gives them a 20-to-1 effectiveness ratio vs battle droids.
  

 

They'd certainly have some 'power armor' for special missions and special units, but for front-line troops they're looking at overall cost/effectiveness ratios, not trying preserve clone lives at any cost. (And that's before even factoring in that Palpatine was deliberately aiming for a long protracted war, not an easy win for either side.)

Edited February 20, 2015 by DarthDymond

[Aurbere]

Let's also remember that, outside of the Jedi, the lives of Clones weren't really important to the Republic. Most treated them as expendable soldiers. Just organic droids. So outfitting them with advanced gear isn't on their priority list.

[Jrr_hypernova]

Still it's sad an amnesiac revan can buy a personal energy shield and clocking device form a guy in a taris slum and after a few eon of rnd its too expensive for a well equipped army

[TalonVII]

The clones are already outfitted with the best weapons and armor money can buy. The more advanced stuff is likely an expense that the Republic wouldn't have been able to afford.

 

Are we forgetting Delta Squad? And it is canon. Infact they made a cameo in TCW. They have superior armor and then some. Infact it's almost as good as MC from Halo.

[Ghisallo]

One of the things you have to understand first about any military equipment is that it must be soldier proof. It does you no good to have an infantryman be a walking tank if that infantryman increases the need for engine mechanics, hull mechanics etc. Such items would also be expensive.

 

Additionally remember with the exceptions of some types of armor, most body armor doesn't do much against blaster fire and the like. The body armor in SW is really about protecting soldiers from shrapnel, debris, the elements etc.

 

As for Revan and the personal shield, per Canon blasters have just gotten better to the point that personal shields that may be able to stop a blaster would be prohibitively expensive to the point companies don't see them worth producing. Look at it like RL. Armor for foot and mounted soldiers got heavier and heavier until finally firearms advanced to the point they were rendered impractical (due to weight etc) and then obsolete. We had helmets to protect heads from swords BUT then got rid of em when everyone had guns. Then brought em back when we had wide spread use of artillery to protect from falling shrapnel, then Kevlar and ceramic plates. Weapons will advance again and these armors will go bye bye... The cycle continues.

[Silenceo]

I know it is the tactical nuke of Infantry armor, and that you guys are likely tired of me talking about it... So just leaving this.

 

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090813125739/starwars/images/1/11/DarkTroopers-RECG.jpg

 

Expensive as hell, but they were being designed and developed as the next generation of storm trooper armor... I could go into quite a bit of depth about them if I must (due to the Kaggath) but I am sure the key details you have already all seen me state. So... Yeah... Tactical nuke of infantry armor...

[Jrr_hypernova]

I thought the dark trooper thing was a droid version of storm troopers for hazardous environments?

[Wolfninjajedi]

I thought the dark trooper thing was a droid version of storm troopers for hazardous environments?

 

The Phase 1 was droid

 

Phase 2/3, could either be droid controlled or worn as an exosuit of armor.

 

As per the armor thing, pretty much everyone got it. It would be too costly to equip the regular infantry with high tech armor that can stop blaster bolts on a dime and equip everyone with a shield generator and so on, so forth.

 

Plus blasters are pretty powerful in their own right, if you can kill the enemy with one shot, there isn't a real need to have armor that can withstand blaster fire if you can blow away your enemy before they can.

 

The armor is used for other things, as Ghis said, protecting against the elements, communications, shrapnel, slugthrowers, etc.

 

Of course there is armor that is of high quality that can tank blaster bolts, but is reserved for the more elite or special ops.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[Silenceo]

I thought the dark trooper thing was a droid version of storm troopers for hazardous environments?

 

They are all of the above.

 

They originally were designed to be cybernetics and upgrades for injured stormtroopers. It then moved onto the stage where they basically covered the cyborgs in armor, making them more machine than man. They met success with that, which is why they made the Phase I which was really a prototype/frame for the future models. The Phase II was the main unit that had multiple variants, such as the nova troopers that were used for boarding, purge troopers for killing jedi, and such. The main advancement for the Phase II was that it was not a cyborg like the Phase 0, nor was it a droid like the Phase I. It was a fully mechonized suit with a state of the art AI that could operate fully on its own. However, it operated at peak effeciency when there was a trained soldier within it. It was a fully mechanized suit of phrik armor.

 

After that is of course the Phase III, which was a bit bulkier, but its ordinance was that of a heavy tank with a jetpack. It was this model that Rom Mohc had decided would be the standard model that the Empire would use for their soldiers. With the Phase II's being meant more for unmanned missions, but still having the option of a pilot. It was the PIII's however, that were designed fully for soldier operation, and if the project hadn't been stopped by Kyle Katarn, would of become the standard soldiers of the Empire. Expensive as hell, but then again, the Empire is RICHER than hell.

 

This is of course the summarized version, but the gist is that yes, the Dark Trooper project was meant to be the next generation of storm trooper armor. Where even the PII's had weaponry as strong as a walker. The PIII's, the proposed standard manned variant, with even more capabilities, tougher, and missile variety. There is of course the Inquisitorium Dark Trooper as well, but that one lacks much info. Though, it is good to keep in mind that while the PIII was designed to be manned by a living being, it still could quite easily rely on its advanced AI to man the suit itself instead of assisting an operator.

 

Fun fact, Kyle Katarn, who shut down the project, apparently never fought any of them during the course of the books. (I believe this was mentioned by either Wolf or Tune during the Kaggath)

Edited February 21, 2015 by Silenceo

[Wolfninjajedi]

Fun fact, Kyle Katarn, who shut down the project, apparently never fought any of them during the course of the books. (I believe this was mentioned by either Wolf or Tune during the Kaggath)

 

Right, he never fought any of em. In fact, he was never even anywhere near the Dark Trooper project or Rom Mohc in the Dark Forces books.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[Ghisallo]

I thought the dark trooper thing was a droid version of storm troopers for hazardous environments?

 

Those pics are indeed of the droids and ummm Silencio....sorry but per Leland Chee (the former keeper of the Holicron) the droids were also non-Canon and shoukd only be counted for the video game(s) in which they appear.

 

However there was a Phase Zero Dark Trooper that was retconned. They were Clone Troopers who had undergone 70% or greater cybernetic replacement. This would potentially allow them to wear heavier armor etc. So ultimately...even for "old" Canon purposes, the expensive as hell droids don't exist and the Phase Zero troopers would not really be considered a separate weapons project since you are simply taking troopers that got severely injured and then borged up and giving them heavier armor and weapons.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Silenceo]

Those pics are indeed of the droids and ummm Silencio....sorry but per Leland Chee (the former keeper of the Holicron) the droids were also non-Canon and shoukd only be counted for the video game(s) in which they appear.

 

However there was a Phase Zero Dark Trooper that was retconned. They were Clone Troopers who had undergone 70% or greater cybernetic replacement. This would potentially allow them to wear heavier armor etc. So ultimately...even for "old" Canon purposes, the expensive as hell droids don't exist and the Phase Zero troopers would not really be considered a separate weapons project since you are simply taking troopers that got severely injured and then borged up and giving them heavier armor and weapons.

 

They appear in much more than just the Dark Forces game Ghisallo. Such as:

 

Force Unleashed

Comics

Mentioned in books

Source Books

RPG's

ect

 

They were indeed part of the cannon unless Lee specifically said they were not.

[DarthDymond]

Those pics are indeed of the droids and ummm Silencio....sorry but per Leland Chee (the former keeper of the Holicron) the droids were also non-Canon and shoukd only be counted for the video game(s) in which they appear.

I would be very curious to see the actual statement Chee made about the Dark Troopers - the link itself on Wookieepedia is dead. It sounds more like he was talking about their appearances / actions specifically in games like Rebellion, Battlefront and Empire at War where you can have them participating in invasions of whatever planet you choose including during time-frames where they shouldn't be present.

 

The existence of the droid version of the Dark Trooper Project made it into multiple Essential Guides and Source Books as well as the Starwars.com Databank and the SW Encyclopedia.

 

Pretty sure the Droids' existence itself was C-Canon (Legends), it's just that if you had them take part in the Battle of Hoth during your playthrough of Empire at War that was non-canon.

Edited February 21, 2015 by DarthDymond

[Wolfninjajedi]

I would be very curious to see the actual statement Chee made about the Dark Troopers - the link itself on Wookieepedia is dead. It sounds more like he was talking about their appearances / actions specifically in games like Rebellion, Battlefront and Empire at War where you can have them participating in invasions of whatever planet you choose including during time-frames where they shouldn't be present.

 

The existence of the droid version of the Dark Trooper Project made it into multiple Essential Guides and Source Books as well as the Starwars.com Databank and the SW Encyclopedia.

 

Pretty sure the Droids' existence itself was C-Canon (Legends), it's just that if you had them take part in the Battle of Hoth during your playthrough of Empire at War that was non-canon.

 

Also made it into the comic Sandblasted and was very awesome.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[Ghisallo]

They appear in much more than just the Dark Forces game Ghisallo. Such as:

 

Force Unleashed

Comics

Mentioned in books

Source Books

RPG's

ect

 

They were indeed part of the cannon unless Lee specifically said they were not.

 

Doesn't matter Lee specifically said they were not. That is my point. The Darktoopers from Battle front games were retconned to be the Phase zero cyborgs and not droids...that were retconned thewere cybor soldiers by the Force Unleashed campaign guide http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_trooper (go down to behind the scenes).

 

So basically if you see Darktroopers in the field, thanks to the magic wand of Canon retconns...they are usually cyborgs not droids. Those that are droids are FAR less impressive...at least according to the new Essentials guide to droids. The really kick butt ones are gone.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Ghisallo]

I would be very curious to see the actual statement Chee made about the Dark Troopers - the link itself on Wookieepedia is dead. It sounds more like he was talking about their appearances / actions specifically in games like Rebellion, Battlefront and Empire at War where you can have them participating in invasions of whatever planet you choose including during time-frames where they shouldn't be present.

 

The existence of the droid version of the Dark Trooper Project made it into multiple Essential Guides and Source Books as well as the Starwars.com Databank and the SW Encyclopedia.

 

Pretty sure the Droids' existence itself was C-Canon (Legends), it's just that if you had them take part in the Battle of Hoth during your playthrough of Empire at War that was non-canon.

 

Yes but these were FAR less impressive that the ones in the video games in question...hence why in Canon Palpatine eventually shut down all the programs...the cost for performance ratio failing and why others got retconned into cyborgs. That is the biggest bit tbh...many of the things you are looking at and are calling droids got retconned into cyborgs due to the Force Unleashed campaign guide.

 

Yet another example of why I always laughed when people called the old Canon system a Canon system. They played so fast and lose sometimes it made my teeth ache.

[DarthDymond]

Yes but these were FAR less impressive that the ones in the video games in question...hence why in Canon Palpatine eventually shut down all the programs...the cost for performance ratio failing and why others got retconned into cyborgs. That is the biggest bit tbh...many of the things you are looking at and are calling droids got retconned into cyborgs due to the Force Unleashed campaign guide.

 

Yet another example of why I always laughed when people called the old Canon system a Canon system. They played so fast and lose sometimes it made my teeth ache.

Just to clarify whether we're on the same page: you are agreeing that what was depicted of the Dark Trooper Project in Dark Forces - the massacre at Talay, the Phase I droids, Phase II droids, and the single Phase III armor Rohm Moc uses - were part of C-Canon, right?

Edited February 21, 2015 by DarthDymond

[Wolfninjajedi]

The Phase Zero project was shut down and it was only because the Empire grew in power and was able to recruit humans in replacing Clone Troopers for Stormtroopers.

 

It wasn't until Mohc came in that he decided to bring the Dark Trooper project back, it wasn't because there was any loss. The Phase Zero project was still very effective.

 

The Dark Trooper project was yes, shut down but that's only because Kyle defeated Mohc and destroyed the facility. It wasn't because there was any failing ratio or whatever.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[Ghisallo]

Just to clarify whether we're on the same page: you are agreeing that what was depicted of the Dark Trooper Project in Dark Forces - the massacre at Talay, the Phase I droids, Phase II droids, and the single Phase III armor Rohm Moc uses - were part of C-Canon, right?

 

No...its about context... It says that the darktroopers from video games "such as" and then gives limited examples of video games. It then says "appearances in such games...", again making a more global reference, "...should be mainly considered for game play purposes only". When you say "such as" and "appearances in such" you are doing so in order to avoid listing every potential example. Ergo it applies to all video games. Anal retentive? Yep, but that is the use for the terms, otherwise you simply say "their appearances in...." if you mean only those games.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Silenceo]

If I recall, the only ones that they mentioned about Dark Troopers not being as they appear, was the one in Battlefront, and Empire at war.

 

Battlefront it was explained as the Phase 0, which makes sense since other than the armor and jetpack, it shares no traits of the dark trooper line.

 

In Empire at War, I believe it was referring to the displayed size and combat mechanics that they possessed. They were indeed present there, since Rom Mohc was in the game as well as the exclusive, by cannon, way to produce the top quality phrik armored dark troopers.

 

They never really, to my recollection, have been declared non-cannon except for clarifying errors taken by those in video game development taking liberties (that they are privileged to) in their portrayal. I admit though I am not 100% on the force unleashed part, since Purge troopers are a thing, after all...

 

In a nut shell, it seems very much like they were trying to fix an error between the lore Dark Troopers and game mechanics. Which happens quite a lot, really... Nor does that really have anything to do with armor vs droid, since they are stated in many places to be both...

Edited February 21, 2015 by Silenceo

[DarthDymond]

No...its about context... It says that the darktroopers from video games "such as" and then gives limited examples of video games. It then says "appearances in such games...", again making a more global reference, "...should be mainly considered for game play purposes only". When you say "such as" and "appearances in such" you are doing so in order to avoid listing every potential example. Ergo it applies to all video games. Anal retentive? Yep, but that is the use for the terms, otherwise you simply say "their appearances in...." if you mean only those games.

Putting the Wookieepedia language here for reference:

According to Leland Chee, keeper of the Holocron continuity database, the dark troopers appearing in computer games such as , Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds and Star Wars: Empire at War: Forces of Corruption are non-canon. Appearances in such games should be mainly considered for gameplay purposes only.

Believe me, I understand the type of 'anal retentive' language you're talking about - ejusdem generis as opposed to expressio unius, etc. - but this is a wiki article we're talking about, not a contract or legal statute; and the original quote from Chee seems to have disappeared.

 

Taken in context I believe Chee was not talking about Dark Forces, only about any video games that allowed the player to produce and direct the Dark Troopers in ways inconsistent with the C-Canon confines of the Project (as established in Dark Forces and the various Essential Guides / Sourcebooks / etc.). I agree that Galactic Battlegrounds and Empire at War do not make an exhaustive list, Rebellion is another one I can think of off the top of my head. But just because the two examples are not an exhaustive list doesn't mean the comment covers all video games.

 

If we want to parse the language, there would be no reason for the words "such as" to appear in either sentence if the statement was supposed to include all video games. It would just say "...the dark troopers appearing in computer games are non-canon. Appearances in games should be..."

 

If you play Star Wars: Rebellion as the Empire, you can create a dozen Death Stars and use them to blow up Yavin, Hoth, etc. The existence of the Death Star is canon (thanks to Episode IV), the presence of a dozen of them non-canon.

 

Similarly, if you play Star Wars: Rebellion as the Empire you can create armies of Dark Troopers and use them to conquer Yavin, Hoth, etc. The existence of the Dark Trooper Project is C-Canon (thanks to Dark Forces), the presence of an army of them attacking Hoth is non-canon.

Edited February 21, 2015 by DarthDymond

[Ghisallo]

Both of you guys are completely ignoring the use of proper English. Hey I think the things are cool too...it would be nice if they are Canon. I don' think they are though for the reasons I noted. Again if they meant just those specific games you don't say "such as". In the absence of clarification...when we take the language in the post and the existence of clear retcons as well there is only one logical conclusion. I would see using " such as" and naming some of the games due to the number of discussions going on on the wiki about those droids. Also if we don't look at it this way then we get into a pissing match as to what games are and are not covered under the use of "such as".

 

As for the post, its gone because the Holicron is now gone, I suppose. Since Disney has said everything pre-April 2014 is non-canon, they likely feel they have no real reason to maintain the holicron, so to save money on data storage "poof."

 

Oh and did you just bring Black's into this? Lol. I actually chuckled when I saw expressio unius est exclusio alterius because that does address the "illustrative" point I am making. (Not a lawyer, just a LEO for 18 years now who reads too much. Getting my paralegal cert though...need to have something to do when I retire in 7 years beside ride my bike and play video games.)

Edited February 21, 2015 by Ghisallo

[TalonVII]

Wow all this talk about Dark Troopers and everybody flatly ignores the Republic Commandos? Remember they were around in the game before KT did her thing and again Delta squad actually cameo'd in the show.

 

So right here we have Commandos with Reactive shielding, built in bladed gauntlets, superior weapons that can be changed on the fly, better HUD, simply better armor.

 

And frankly it was still superior armor even after the GAR fell away to the empire because we really see nothing replace it.