souloferdrick Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Im sure it has nothing to do with an apathy riddled playerbase that has zero patience and/or tolerance for people who cant faceroll them through an FP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pietrastor Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I'd agree with practice makes perfect if leveling didn't involve practicing bad end game habits...pew pew until mob is dead is really all you learn while leveling. Very few real mechanics are introduced while leveling, most of those are learned in end game where mechanics require you to use more than just your "pew pew" abilities. There are many mechanics that are being introduced in 30+ Heroics and Flashpoints, however, it is still all about chat and other players explaining the basics to you (which can go in every possible way, good and bad). The game itself teaches nothing but minimal dps. No solo-quests designed for MMO-newbies to teach about aggro, or effective healing, kill priority, heal priority. None of these things are "so obvious and clear" for players new to MMOs. Some people even complained about new highlited abilities on Proc introduced in 3.0, despite the fact that it's one of the few mechanics that will actually help newbies get a better hang of their class/spec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
souloferdrick Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Leveling content is not meant to teach people optimized rotations and group dynamics/mechanics for a reason - it needs to be accessible for solo type players. Same with tacticals. If the game had a larger following newbs/noobs would have more (accurate and updated) resources available for their perusal but that's simply not the case and even then that is no substitute for learning by experiencing the content firsthand with some guidance from seasoned players. The responsibility, which ultimately lies with the individual player, falls to the group or guild to acclimate the player. Most groups and guilds want a ready to go pro than a rebuilding project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pietrastor Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Leveling content is not meant to teach people optimized rotations and group dynamics/mechanics for a reason - it needs to be accessible for solo type players. Why it can't be both? Solo quests that "teach" about aggro, kill priority etc using in-game mechanics? Or even actual in-game voiced tutorials. Stuff that single-player games have been doing for decades. Why would this be such a no-no in MMO? Edited February 17, 2015 by Pietrastor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
souloferdrick Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Why it can't be both? Solo quests that "teach" about aggro, kill priority etc using in-game mechanics? Or even actual in-game voiced tutorials. Stuff that single-player games have been doing for decades. Why would this be such a no-no in MMO? Solo content that "teaches" group play? There's a contradiction in there somewhere. Your point that the game could do a little better to prepare players for group content is a good one but you kind of shot yourself in the foot when you referenced single (one) player games. The game already did its job by offering group content to be tackled by groups. After that its up to the group to promote and sustain good group play. Again, it just seems like no one wants to take the time and patience to teach eager and motivated wannabes while at the same time lamenting the fact that there are a lack of skill players. If the community wants better puggers than they need to create them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pietrastor Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Solo content that "teaches" group play? There's a contradiction in there somewhere. Game detects you're in healer spec. Your quest is to heal an NPC. Game detects you're in DPS spec. Your quest objective is to kill weakest enemies before big boss. Game detects you're in tank spec, your objective is to keep as many critters around as possible and move them to marked circle. Sure it won't teach everything, but we're talking basics many players new to MMOs just don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
souloferdrick Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Game detects you're in healer spec. Your quest is to heal an NPC. Game detects you're in DPS spec. Your quest objective is to kill weakest enemies before big boss. Game detects you're in tank spec, your objective is to keep as many critters around as possible and move them to marked circle. I don't necessarily disagree but I think group play is better fostered in an actual group doing real group content. Everything you listed above could easily be taught by a thoughtful and supporting group of players but maybe that's better suited for the guild environment because most pugs cant handle people who don't spacebar their way through every convo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidelicatessen Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I don't necessarily disagree but I think group play is better fostered in an actual group doing real group content. Everything you listed above could easily be taught by a thoughtful and supporting group of players but maybe that's better suited for the guild environment because most pugs cant handle people who don't spacebar their way through every convo. After having PuGged every SM FP from 10-50 MANY TIMES, I can tell you this: The PuGs who are clueless and *willing to learn* are few and far between. I am more than happy to teach, but most of the clueless ones have no desire to learn, or even be told that they need to learn. They call you elitist and either leave group or try to kick you from the group. You need to understand: I LOVE TEACHING. I am HAPPY to have new players in my PuG during a FP, assuming they are folks who are willing to be taught. I don't care if they don't spacebar (I'm one of those people who stops spacebarring if someone starts making a lot of noise about it), and I don't care if they come in clueless so long as they listen to advice and change their actions based on that advice. So have fun teaching all those mouth-breathers who refuse to learn! I'll go ahead and support the implementation of a system like that suggested above (or like the one in The Secret World) that teaches group roles and *won't let you queue for a HM FP until you've completed and succeeded at the teaching missions*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
souloferdrick Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The PuGs who are clueless and *willing to learn* are few and far between. I am more than happy to teach, but most of the clueless ones have no desire to learn, or even be told that they need to learn. They call you elitist and either leave group or try to kick you from the group. Yes, it cuts both ways but while we are on opposite ends we are speaking the same language. My overarching point is its community as a whole to produce good players, not the game. You need to have those who are motivated to learn and willing to try and those who are patient and willing to teach. Both are in a minority at the moment it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefla Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) I am stupid and don't know what to do so I don't play with other people. Edited February 17, 2015 by Nefla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreggorZane Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The trouble is that the tacticals does not give a chance to practice tanking or healing at maximum level. At 50 there where story mode FP if you had just started to heal or tank to ease you into a new role that you had never tried. Since ROHC there has been no 55+ SM FPs so for new players you have to jump into HM FP and try and heal or tank and learn to play that role which can be very hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toweleeeie Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Everyone knows there is a vote kick right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtJeremy Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 If I am not a tank or a healer my groups from the group finder go horribly horribly wrong. And I am not even a good tank/healer. If I queued with a good Healer or a tank, and I am a healer or a tank than I could realistically carry a couple scrubby DPS. You can't carry a bad Tank/Healer unless your Deeps are crazy high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoverNoFighter Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Do you? Do you really learn them? I have multiple tanks, I didn't learn squat about tanking from the leveling process... it was just smash everything... once I got to lvl 50, then 55, then I started learning about tanking... And I think that is the problem... The 1-50 story mode of leveling doesn't teach anything about how to end game play in HM FP or OPs. Winner. /endthread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Now I totally get that people don't hit the next level and go BiS right away, that's fine... but really? Not even to be in 140 purples? Worse than that, at lvl 55? (actually, he was lvl 56). [...[ After he died, he rezed at med center (which was only like 75 meters back of course), and runs forward and does it again. The three of us are watching this with amusement. After he died the second time, he wanted to know why we weren't attacking. We again pointed out that he was not geared for this and needed to go get into at least 140 purples or 148 blues and come back and try again. He left in a huff. Why didn't you just kick him from the get go? Did you want to get your jollies by laughing at him first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Why didn't you just kick him from the get go? Did you want to get your jollies by laughing at him first? No, of course not... I was in the middle of typing some help to him and explaining the issue when he attacked the first time. I don't like to just vote kick people, I prefer to explain what I see to be the problem and offer suggestions. I've added new guild members that way when they actually listen. More than once, we've left the FP and gone and run dailies together to help them get comms when they take the right attitude. Sometimes it is as simple as: Me: I'm sorry, but your gear is not good enough for this FP, you might be skilled, but you wouldn't survive. Them: Huh? I was playing just fine while leveling, what's the problem? Me: If you look at a specific piece of gear, you'll see Rating (162) or Rating (148) near the top, that is a general indicator of the power of that gear. Your X gear is around 112 and this FP needs 140 or better. You can easily get that gear by running dailies. Them: Oh, I never noticed that before... What are dailies? ---- Now THAT is someone I love to teach... it is the "oh, it'll be fine, mind your own business" people that I have no interest in. In my recent case, he wiped twice before I could even type it all out, he just went full speed into the enemies.. You can get away with that during leveling, end game is another thing. That is why I contend there are two games here... The single player RPG that is KOTOR 3, and the end game that is SWTOR MMO... Yes, yes, you can group below level 50, but I'll bet a bunch of people don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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