Same/Similar styles throughout...

[Shaabhekh]

Hi all,

 

So ive recently been getting back into the star wars franchise, and have been interested in SW's for a very long time.

 

I was wondering (and im sorry if this is a common question) as to why the Republic/Empire seem to have so similar ship/troops designs throughout the SW timeline?

 

Episode 1 through 6, we see the elements of the Galactic Empires forces taking place (Clone Trooper armour, Clone Ships etc)

So with that, i can understand the gradual progression of the Clone Cruiser becoming a base design for the Empires Acclamator Cruiser and what not and how Storm Troopers gain their iconic white armour.

 

What i am miffed about though, is how the games based on earlier eras of the SW universe, seem to have nigh on exact copies of 'later' era designs. why are Empire ships always triangular? (and so forth) even the Republic troopers from the opening cinematic bear a very close resemblance to Clone/Storm Troopers.

 

Now, i get that as a franchise, there is a cause for keeping the bad guys separate from the good guys and keeping each faction easily identifiable, but apart from appeasing the 'who is who' aspect, are there any explanations (Lore or General) to explain why this is?

 

Thanks in advance, and i do apologise if this is a common question.

 

Aq

[IchibanSaru]

From a purely fictional universe perspective, it seems that you're putting the cart in front of the horse. Earlier designs (in this game) could simply be precursor designs for the later Galactic Republic ships during the Clone Wars era. Being chronological, the later ships were inspired or direct descendents of the ship successful designs of the Sith.

Even though Germany lost WW2, the allies were still inspired by many of their technological designs and integrated them into later military tech... the same could be said about the Republic after their eventual victory over the Sith. The Sith technology didn't cause them to lose the war. Their constant infighting did.

Palpatine, being a Sith... probably clandestinely had the older design forms used for both psychological and technological reasons.

Finally, technology moves at a snail's pace in the SW universe, so it's not a stretch to imagine a "peaceful" government without a standing army reaching back into the past for the last "great" warships... and Palpatine being Sith... liked the Sith designs.

 

My 2 cents

[Exosasa]

From a purely fictional universe perspective, it seems that you're putting the cart in front of the horse. Earlier designs (in this game) could simply be precursor designs for the later Galactic Republic ships during the Clone Wars era. Being chronological, the later ships were inspired or direct descendents of the ship successful designs of the Sith.

Even though Germany lost WW2, the allies were still inspired by many of their technological designs and integrated them into later military tech... the same could be said about the Republic after their eventual victory over the Sith. The Sith technology didn't cause them to lose the war. Their constant infighting did.

Palpatine, being a Sith... probably clandestinely had the older design forms used for both psychological and technological reasons.

Finally, technology moves at a snail's pace in the SW universe, so it's not a stretch to imagine a "peaceful" government without a standing army reaching back into the past for the last "great" warships... and Palpatine being Sith... liked the Sith designs.

 

My 2 cents

 

Hey... we don't know who's going to win. TBH, I expect the Empire to win because it sets up story for another game.

 

We have a milenium to work with, don't we?

[Leaveshill]

Hey... we don't know who's going to win. TBH, I expect the Empire to win because it sets up story for another game.

 

We have a milenium to work with, don't we?

 

Tbh it's more likely with another stalemate I'd bet, if they want another game. Maybe this time, it'll be a Republic win, but not a total one, and the tables turned from the treaty of Coruscant. This will of course only happen if Saresh is dead, since she said that she'd only accept total destruction of the Sith Empire, or something like that. But she's the perfect type for a villain, so can't see why she wouldn't be removed from power. Maybe after trying to remove the Jedi, Order 66 anyone?

Wouldn't suprise me at least, if it ends with a not decisive Republic victory, and that the "next" game will be in that era. The Republic had this game to rebuild and retake lost ground, maybe the Empire will be the "losing" one at the start of the next game, and the Republic will start out a few steps ahead.

[IchibanSaru]

Hey... we don't know who's going to win. TBH, I expect the Empire to win because it sets up story for another game.

 

We have a milenium to work with, don't we?

 

In terms of victory, I'm speaking long-term when the Galactic Republic is clearly in the driver's seat in the prequels. Palapatine possibly called upon the older (or even possibly modified or mothballed) Sith ships.

 

On a tangent, I'd like Bioware to treat the game universe as a "bubble" universe since its more than likely relegated to "Legends" canon status anyway. I'd like them to allow the Sith to win and the Jedi be forced to be the small band of outsiders having to fight back (like the rebels in the original trilogy).

[Shatterstar]

In terms of victory, I'm speaking long-term when the Galactic Republic is clearly in the driver's seat in the prequels. Palapatine possibly called upon the older (or even possibly modified or mothballed) Sith ships.

 

On a tangent, I'd like Bioware to treat the game universe as a "bubble" universe since its more than likely relegated to "Legends" canon status anyway. I'd like them to allow the Sith to win and the Jedi be forced to be the small band of outsiders having to fight back (like the rebels in the original trilogy).

 

That has been done already.. didn't you play Kotor 2?

[IchibanSaru]

That has been done already.. didn't you play Kotor 2?

 

KOTR is ancient history. I'm talking about instead of the Galactic Republic being formed as a precursor to the events in Episodes 1-3, I'd like a different reality where it was the Sith Empire and the Jedi, instead of being the protectors of the government and peace are forced to hide and be insurrectionists. Almost as if Palpatine had come to power centuries before he actually did and then held on to it.

[Shaabhekh]

From a purely fictional universe perspective, it seems that you're putting the cart in front of the horse. Earlier designs (in this game) could simply be precursor designs for the later Galactic Republic ships during the Clone Wars era. Being chronological, the later ships were inspired or direct descendents of the ship successful designs of the Sith.

Even though Germany lost WW2, the allies were still inspired by many of their technological designs and integrated them into later military tech... the same could be said about the Republic after their eventual victory over the Sith. The Sith technology didn't cause them to lose the war. Their constant infighting did.

Palpatine, being a Sith... probably clandestinely had the older design forms used for both psychological and technological reasons.

Finally, technology moves at a snail's pace in the SW universe, so it's not a stretch to imagine a "peaceful" government without a standing army reaching back into the past for the last "great" warships... and Palpatine being Sith... liked the Sith designs.

 

My 2 cents

 

I see where your coming from, but there is a snag. If Palpatine uses Sith design, would the Jedi Order not have seen this coming? i understand their Force sight, for lack of a better word, was dwindling but i still feel like some1 would have spotted the similarities. /shrug. but oh well, it was jst me nick picking a bit lol

[Ghisallo]

It could simply be the following reason. Google HMS Hood, Graf Spee, USS New Jersey, Yamato. How different are these ships? All different Nations, heck Nations who went to war (axis v allies) BUT the ships are of very similar design.

 

After many centuries of peace the Republic's ship design likely didn't advance for crap. The Empire, planning an invasion was engaged in advancing ship designs. So it could simply be that once the Republic wins this war they change their ship design concepts to be more in line with Imperial design.

 

The Imperial design simply make more sense. Since the ships in SW are more about having LOTS of guns vs a few BIG guns (like our battle ships) the wedge/pyramid like design allows for most if not all of the ships weapons to be brought to bare on a target in front of the vessel as well as being able to deploy half your weapons to either side. On the other hand to bring maximum fire power to bare with the Valor Class Cruiser has weapons mounted to the front and rear but due to it's design has limited firepower to the sides. This increases your vulnerability as the profile that provides the biggest target is also the least armed.

 

So we could simply be seeing that by the time of the movies the Republic's ship designs have evolved.

 

The reason why in episodes IV-VI the Rebellion uses all those other ships is because they are buying them from the back door of shipwrights and/or converted ships not originally designed for combat into combat platforms.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Ghisallo

[eldefail]

With the huge, huge, huge spans of time in the Star Wars timeline one might wonder why so little, in the grand scheme of things, seems to change in the galaxy. Ship designs remain vaguely similar for millenia, for instance. There could be many reasons. But first, I'd like to say that the real reason is probably simply lack of imagination. I think story tellers would rather tell their stories than go into the intricacies of early interstellar starship design and the numerous ways in which ships from any given era may differ. To be fair, it damages MY suspension of disbelief, too.

 

Anyway, I've come up with my own headcanon reasons to make it a little easier to tune out the whole "why haven't dreadnaughts changed, like, at all in like 3000 years. For starters, maybe the galaxy hit a technological plateau a long, long, longlonglong time ago. Rather than seeing technological advances in huge leaps and bounds, a la the real world's 20th century, we see innovative tweaks, reapplications, repurposing, and streamlining of existing technology and the occasional groundbreaking new invention. We go from kolto to bacta. We slowly increase the efficiency, power, throughput, and speed of warp technology. The galaxy can improve on design, but maybe they've already built pretty much everything there is to build, they've seen it all a million times before, and invention has slowed to a crawl.

 

Maybe the Force has something to do with it. Or maybe the Jedi are (unwittingly) responsible. Seems we mostly see advancements and arms races when the Sith pop in to shake things up a bit. The reason we don't see huge technological, aesthetic, architectural, cultural, or artistic growth and development may be the same reason the Republic more or less continues to function mostly as intended for millenia at a time, when any real world government fails and devolves into something decidedly different typically within a few centuries. The Jedi and their influence might have a lot to do with it.

 

Or maybe it's the same reason Fallout 3 continues the idealized 50s theme even though the setting has been in a post apocalyptic wasteland for over 200 years. It's deliberate, just an artistic thing with the story, I forget what it's called, but the setting is "stuck" in a time bubble based on an idealized 1950s version of the future. While I'm not convinced the Star Wars universe is also deliberately stuck in such a time bubble, it nonetheless appears to be.

 

I don't think it's any kind of intentional storytelling gimmick, though, nor am I aware of any canon reason for the seeming aesthetic plateau.

 

Edit: Here we go. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MedievalStasis

Edited February 18, 2015 by eldefail

[IchibanSaru]

I see where your coming from, but there is a snag. If Palpatine uses Sith design, would the Jedi Order not have seen this coming? i understand their Force sight, for lack of a better word, was dwindling but i still feel like some1 would have spotted the similarities. /shrug. but oh well, it was jst me nick picking a bit lol

 

The beauty of the prequals if anything, is that they show how blind/arrogant the Jedi had become to the Sith influence. The Galactic Republic was so large and the Jedi made great efforts to stay above the "politics" of government. It wasn't hard for Palpatine to use their hubris to his advantage. Palpatine clandestinely worked with Seiner to have Darth Maul's Sith Infiltrator built and the Jedi never knew the wiser. Before the Clone Wars, the Jedi didn't want to associate themselves with the military so it wouldn't be surprising if the Jedi didn't even raise an eyebrow when the armada we saw at the end of Ep2 was unveiled. They probably viewed the ships with half a blind eye, being clouded by their own politics regarding the upcoming war with the revelations regarding Sifo Dias, Jango Fett, Dooku and the Separatists. Hubris was the Jedi's downfall.

 

I go back to my earlier thought that the Sith might have simply had better military designs "back in the day" and lost due to infighting rather than inferior technology.

Kuat Drive Yards and Sienar Fleet Systems are responsible for the Imperial Class Star Destroyer and a little research draws the evolutionary step from the old Galactic Republic to the Galactic Empire in terms of ship design and influence.

The companies continued to make ships and technology throughout the changes of governments so it goes to show the similarity in design... harkening back to the Sith ships perphaps.

[Ghisallo]

As far as "why hasn't stuff changed much". Look at the Centuries between 1300s and the 1860s. How much did sailing ships REALLY change. Not much. I think people are looking to how rapidly things changed in the 20th century. Our technical advancements in the last 75 years are a x5 Fast forward compared to the rest of our history.

 

Now picture you are in a society where you are already pushing science against the walls set by the laws of physics. Changes are going to be VERY incremental. If you end up having centuries of peace even more so because the greatest motivator for technological advancement is conflict.

[IchibanSaru]

As far as "why hasn't stuff changed much". Look at the Centuries between 1300s and the 1860s. How much did sailing ships REALLY change. Not much.

 

From a layperson's point of view sailing ships didn't change much (still used sails for propulsion, still constructed from wood etc), but from a technical standpoint, sailing ships changed radically in sail configuration, hull design and rigging tech. The tech tended to leap forward too: the English Galleon versus the Spanish Galleon, the dutch man o' war versus the galleon, the ship of the line versus the man o' war, the American Frigate versus the English frigates.

You take a Spanish Galleon and compare it to the USS Constitution and you'll find very little resemblance outside of the basic mode of propulsion, cannons as weapons and the fact that they both use wooden hulls.

That's not even taking into account the more radical changes in cargo ship design: boxy hulls to the narrow and long blade hulled clippers. Look at a caravel compared to a tea clipper... night and day.

 

Tech moves at a snail's pace in the SW Universe as I stated before. There's no doubt about that. I think it comes down to why did the Galactic Republic (Clone War Era) use the triangular ship designs of the Sith rather than earlier Republic designs of the same era rather than stagnant tech.

[Ghisallo]

From a layperson's point of view sailing ships didn't change much (still used sails for propulsion, still constructed from wood etc), but from a technical standpoint, sailing ships changed radically in sail configuration, hull design and rigging tech. The tech tended to leap forward too: the English Galleon versus the Spanish Galleon, the dutch man o' war versus the galleon, the ship of the line versus the man o' war, the American Frigate versus the English frigates.

You take a Spanish Galleon and compare it to the USS Constitution and you'll find very little resemblance outside of the basic mode of propulsion, cannons as weapons and the fact that they both use wooden hulls.

That's not even taking into account the more radical changes in cargo ship design: boxy hulls to the narrow and long blade hulled clippers. Look at a caravel compared to a tea clipper... night and day.

 

Tech moves at a snail's pace in the SW Universe as I stated before. There's no doubt about that. I think it comes down to why did the Galactic Republic (Clone War Era) use the triangular ship designs of the Sith rather than earlier Republic designs of the same era rather than stagnant tech.

 

Yes but people here are talking about appearances. That is my point. Also the sailing ships improved tech wise were often incremental. I am NOT saying they did not advance at all, only that for much of our history it too moved at a snails pace. Faster than in the SW universe yes, but still you don't see the leaps of the last 75-80 years ANYWHERE in our history.

 

Also look at how our tech leaps. We hit what appears to be a wall in a science...our understanding of biology, materials, hell cosmology (who needed a ship that could sail across the atlantic when you thought you would sail off the edge?). Then someone comes along and says "NO that is not the limit, we can do this..." then you have the leaps. Then you settle down again and the more advanced you get in the "science of your day" the more incremental the leaps become. Eventually you have to hit a limit as well... the laws of physics will only let you get so far eventually.

 

 

The "leaps" you are referring to are also as much about tactics with the sailing ships as anything else. There is a reason parts of sailing ships are called "castles". The Spanish by choice held onto old tactics where sailing ships were essentially floating forts, vs an independent weapon system that was essentially a mobile gun platform, far longer than they should have.

 

 

I have also had the feeling that SW was kinda dystopian...it is a Universe/galaxy where the civilization has peaked and they are on the downhill slide. They essentially became complacent after centuries, maybe mellenia without any real "challenge," due to how far their science had already progressed, as such there was no real need to innovate on any large scale.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Ghisallo

[TalonVII]

I also ascribe to the theory of technology hit the the wall with how far they could push things.

 

Until tech comes around where you can fold space like in Dune(and it took humanity a quantum leap in how they do things), tech remains as it is.

 

I think right now, as far as our tech goes, we've only scratched the surface of what it can do and it seems we have limitless possibilities. Give humanity about 3-400 years, we'll hit that wall ourselves.

[IchibanSaru]

I have also had the feeling that SW was kinda dystopian...it is a Universe/galaxy where the civilization has peaked and they are on the downhill slide. They essentially became complacent after centuries, maybe mellenia without any real "challenge," due to how far their science had already progressed, as such there was no real need to innovate on any large scale.

 

I don't think they've hit a wall, technologically speaking. There are signs of continued change and innovation. Examples (that are canon) like the Y-Wing (an old design by the time of the Battle of Yavin) being replaced by the far superior B-Wing in a few short years. The fact that the Incom X-Wing was a relatively "new" fighter having replaced an older model by the time of the Battle of Yavin. The Executor class Star Destroyer, the Imperial II Class Star Destroyers, and the TIE Advanced and TIE Interceptor models. The old Jedi Starfighter from Clone War Era (which required an external attachment to achieve hyperspace travel compared to the X-Wing that had one integrated on board. The best example of technology still moving forward (if slowly) is the Death Star. It was a clearly "new" platform built around a massive new weapon at the time of A New Hope (considering they "tested it" on Alderaan). Then the Empire built a larger one (which from an engineering standpoint, isn't a simple matter of scaling everything up).

Tech isn't stagnant. It's just slow.

[Ghisallo]

I don't think they've hit a wall, technologically speaking. There are signs of continued change and innovation. Examples (that are canon) like the Y-Wing (an old design by the time of the Battle of Yavin) being replaced by the far superior B-Wing in a few short years. The fact that the Incom X-Wing was a relatively "new" fighter having replaced an older model by the time of the Battle of Yavin. The Executor class Star Destroyer, the Imperial II Class Star Destroyers, and the TIE Advanced and TIE Interceptor models. The old Jedi Starfighter from Clone War Era (which required an external attachment to achieve hyperspace travel compared to the X-Wing that had one integrated on board. The best example of technology still moving forward (if slowly) is the Death Star. It was a clearly "new" platform built around a massive new weapon at the time of A New Hope (considering they "tested it" on Alderaan). Then the Empire built a larger one (which from an engineering standpoint, isn't a simple matter of scaling everything up).

Tech isn't stagnant. It's just slow.

 

The B-wing is a BAD example. Most if what is there is incremental changes AND, if I remember right, per Canon, it was a highly unpopular vessel because of the unnessecary complications of the the rotating cockpit etc. Its kinda like, right now, referring to the F-35 as a "leap" from the F-16 or F-18. The damn thing has so many issues they are not deploying it to combat zones even though we have how many "in service?"

 

Also the hyperspace bit is incremental with fighters as you can find examples of fighter sized craft with hyperdrive in the CW era. The main reason the X-Wing had one and why other fighters even doing the New Hope Era did not is because of Capital ships carrying fighter wings. The Rebels had to use such fighters though due to a lack of Capital ships (as compared to the Empire.)

 

As for the Death Star, one advancement does not undermine the theory, rather when you see most everything else remaining relatively static it can be called the exception that proved the rule. That said you missed what I said...with the CW and then the Rebellion the drive to innovate remained. With how many centuries, even milennia of peace before though that drive was gone and that is when things were relatively static.

 

Oh an BTW if you read about the Executor class SD, it really wasn't, innovative, nor the ISD III's etc. All they represented was a scaling up. For the "benefits" or even actual difficulties of such look at the Yamato or the Maus Tank. Bigger yes...technological innovation? No. Hell the Imperial Navy even saw Vader's Ship as a waste of resources as it provided little advantage over all in terms of the war effort for what it cost.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Jrr_hypernova]

The triangular ship design isn't originally a Sith one lore wise its mandolorian.

[IchibanSaru]

The B-wing is a BAD example. Most if what is there is incremental changes AND, if I remember right, per Canon, it was a highly unpopular vessel because of the unnessecary complications of the the rotating cockpit etc. Its kinda like, right now, referring to the F-35 as a "leap" from the F-16 or F-18. The damn thing has so many issues they are not deploying it to combat zones even though we have how many "in service?"

 

Oh an BTW if you read about the Executor class SD, it really wasn't, innovative, nor the ISD III's etc. All they represented was a scaling up. For the "benefits" or even actual difficulties of such look at the Yamato or the Maus Tank. Bigger yes...technological innovation? No. Hell the Imperial Navy even saw Vader's Ship as a waste of resources as it provided little advantage over all in terms of the war effort for what it cost.

 

Two issues. The First: The B-Wing (according the the B-Wing expansion of the X-Wing computer game) was a huge leap ahead in its military offensive and defensive capabilities and I'd like to see the canon reference to their unpopularity to fly. It was heavily armed and armored (both weaknesses of the Y-Wing) and was used

It could go toe to toe with Class B Frigates solo and in groups, take on capitol ships. The B-WIng wasn't laden with problems like your F35 example.

 

Canon source without any note of its unpopularity: http://www.starwars.com/databank/b-wing-fighter

Wookiepedia (EU source) with no comment about its unpopularity: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/A/SF-01_B-wing_starfighter

 

Second issue. Like I said previously, from an engineering standpoint, "scaling up" is not easy. Especially when the scale in question is the Executor Class Dreadnought. You simply can't make things "bigger" and walk away. Engines have to be designed that can move a ship almost 12 miles long.

 

Having had this pleasant debate, all I can say in truth is that we're arguing about tech in a universe that doesn't put tech forward like Star Trek does. The truth is, the triangle ship is an iconic image and Lucas used it in the Prequels and Clone Wars series and Bioware grabbed it because it was "Star Wars-y" and echoed the later ships.

[Ghisallo]

I will hunt for the direct reference. However the issues were two fold (and you see one of them corrected in the canon). The B-wing we initially see is "upgraded" to have a co-pilot/weapons officer (Admiral Akbar even uses one of these newer models as his personal shuttle). Also the main link for the B-wing you note talks about a host of problems the craft had which led to the Republic investing in an upgraded Y wing. If you served in the military you would know these issues would indeed make it unpopular. It is also why I made the F-35 reference. So you don't have to hunt for it...

 

However, the B-wing had several weaknesses, notably being difficult to fly and lacking speed and agility, affecting its dogfighting capability. Its large hull furthermore made it an easier target and it also had less armor protection. Consequently, it did not fully replace the Y-wing in the assault starfighter role until the New Republic was well established.[source?] The B-wing was also expensive to manufacture....

 

In particular, the rotating hull system made the B-wing a challenge to master. It also made the ship abnormally delicate; too many sharp turns could cause extreme strain to the spaceframe, and the cockpit rotation system could get stuck in one position. Only a few pilots were qualified to fly the ship before the Battle of Endor, resulting in a smaller number of B-wings present than expected. These difficulties forced the Rebel Alliance to invest in an upgraded Y-wing, rather than an entirely new ship, to fulfill their needs. In addition, the gyro-mechanisms for the fighter were prone to in-flight failure, causing the fighters to end up "frozen" into position, thus leading to maneuvering problems. Another problem is that their parked position had all three of its "wings" being locked into position as well as sitting on the lower wing, making access to the central area awkward, and thus maintenance servicing of the overall craft difficult.[/craft]

 

Helper...sounds like a leap ahead to me..

 

The unpopularity of the initial model was based on the occassional failure of the gyroscope for the cockpit forcing it to be locked in place. Additionally this cockpit configuration meant that the pilot had his hands full just flying the darn thing impacting actual combat performance. When they added the weapons officer the kill ratio of the craft went up sharply.

 

That said the comment in the video game is reflected no where else. When you look at it's performance etc it is not a quantum leap, hyperbole aside.