What happens to Republic Force Sensitives in this Era

[SpacemanBJBO]

I know from in game conversations that in the Dmpire, all force sensitives are trained,

 

 

But what happens in the Republic? I know in different eras jedi training has been compulsory, and in some it hasn't, but what about during The Old Republic?

 

I would imagine during a time of Galactic Conflict that it would be, but I'm unsure and was just wondering if there's any source on how the Republic handles those unwilling to train?

 

The only thing I can think of is the trainee on anything that fails and is told he will serve the jedi I

In a clerical matter, which I imagine means he is not free to leave the Order.

[Jrr_hypernova]

Jedi do as they always do take baby's from there homes and indoctrinate them into the religion. The only difference is that due to the need for warm body's the age limit is axed and they take random force users off the street.

[Kyrrant]

Its tricky.

 

The whole "Baby Stealing" thing has always been a common insult thrown at the Jedi, and there are canon sources to say that they do have the authority to take children away from their parents if they are talented in the Force. And the Jedi are not immune to zealotry, after all, and the risks of an untrained Force User can be rather terrible...

 

...but, on a galactic stage, with ~1 trillion people on Coruscant alone, countless different cultures, religions and ways of thinking... for it to be compulsory for EVERY child in EVERY circumstance seems... more absurd than the Midichlorians.

 

The way I've always looked at it is that, in the Republic, the Jedi have the authority to take any child with Force potential... but they only do it in one of the following circumstances:

1: The parents allow it.

2: The child's potential is so massive that they'd be a significant risk if not trained properly.

3: The child's environment is not conducive to a healthy upbringing (Jedi Social Services, as it were)

4: The Jedi gets a push from the Force to do it

 

Because if the Jedi took any and all children... I can't imagine a democratic society surviving even a decade allowing for that. A dictatorship, sure, but you'd imagine there'd be the Tea Party times 1000 if a evangelical religious order was taking children against their parent's wishes, with the government's backing.

[Kaisernick]

From the Jedi manual i read i dont think the Jedi force kids to come with them after all not every child becomes a Jedi anyway, if the Force guides them on another path away from the order the encourage them to listen to it and if need be leave.

 

So it could be that its more like a prestigious academy, you can go and train there but may not graduate.

[Mechavich]

So it could be that its more like a prestigious academy, you can go and train there but may not graduate.

 

 

The best example of this is Theron Shan, who was placed into the Jedi training program but it was discovered that he was not force sensitive, at least not enough to become a Jedi.

 

This also goes with the young Jedi that you can help with one of his tasks, he was then placed in the archives rather than progressing as a true Jedi.

[AlrikFassbauer]

On Tython, one young Padawan tells the player's character that she had been "rescued" from a "junk ship" or whatever the term was. So, picking up force-sensitive people from the galaxy seems to be not that uncommon.

 

I could imagine Jedi Masters travelling around in the galaxy only / just for this purpose : To discover force sensitives before they might go to the dark side.

Edited February 1, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer

[Ahl-Vinn]

In this particular time-frame, even Force-sensitives that are NOT strong in the Force are taken into the Order, for training - because of the conflict. The best example and reinforcement of this element is this:

 

 

If you have not already, then play Smuggler and follow Guss Tuno's conversation-progression, to the end. He reveals that while he has Force-sensitivity, it's only enough to *feel* the Force - but not manipulate it. This, however, has absolutely nothing with why he was booted out.

 

 

This factor is central to the backstory of my own main character, who is not naturally strong in the Force - but whose life's work produced a physically-costly work-around.

 

[jovianus]

Its tricky.

The whole "Baby Stealing" thing has always been a common insult thrown at the Jedi, and there are canon sources to say that they do have the authority to take children away from their parents if they are talented in the Force. And the Jedi are not immune to zealotry, after all, and the risks of an untrained Force User can be rather terrible...

 

...but, on a galactic stage, with ~1 trillion people on Coruscant alone, countless different cultures, religions and ways of thinking... for it to be compulsory for EVERY child in EVERY circumstance seems... more absurd than the Midichlorians.

 

The way I've always looked at it is that, in the Republic, the Jedi have the authority to take any child with Force potential... but they only do it in one of the following circumstances:

1: The parents allow it.

2: The child's potential is so massive that they'd be a significant risk if not trained properly.

3: The child's environment is not conducive to a healthy upbringing (Jedi Social Services, as it were)

4: The Jedi gets a push from the Force to do it

 

Because if the Jedi took any and all children... I can't imagine a democratic society surviving even a decade allowing for that. A dictatorship, sure, but you'd imagine there'd be the Tea Party times 1000 if a evangelical religious order was taking children against their parent's wishes, with the government's backing.

 

It's not really that much of a stretch, since Force Sensitivity is apparently incredibly rare. With all the trillions of citizens of the Republic on hundreds of worlds, there are only a few thousand Jedi running around. If 3 or 4 children on a planet get taken a year, it's not likely to create all that much unrest.

 

It may be a common insult thrown at Jedi, but statistically speaking the odds are probably orders of magnitude higher that your kid will be actually kidnapped by strangers or killed in an accident than taken by the Jedi. And it's not as if being trained as a Jedi is all that horrific a fate

[Ghisallo]

Well if we are going to talk Canon, the Jedi can't steal babies. Remember Canon now = nothing in the EU. Qui-Gon asked for permission to take Anakin with him. Also the only EU reference to "baby stealing" is the "Baby Ludi" case.

Although normally the Order required parental consent when bringing a child into their ranks, the infant's parents were missing at the time, presumed dead.

. On finding the child was force sensitive they took her in and opened her up to the force, removing the cork from the bottle as it were. It was for this reason and ONLY this reason that the Jedi council would not return the child to her mother when she finally showed up as the child would simply be too dangerous without the proper training at that point.

 

Even if this was not the case and it was "stealing babies" time there is a big difference between the Empire and the Republic. Neither the Republic nor the Jedi have a formal Republic wide screening program nor a near omnipresent secret police apparatus that can report back signs or indicators that someone may be force sensitive. As such the vast majority of force sensitives probably have lives of blissful ignorance, passing off signs of force sensitivity as good luck, deja vu, coincidence etc.

 

I think a good indicator for this is the young lady you meet on Tython. She tells you she was a freighter crewmember until her Master took an interest in her and noticed she was sensitive. Why did he take interest? Not because she did some forcey thingie... She saw him...was scared to death by his appearance... He was a Kel-Dor... So she shot at him.

 

On the other hand the Empire actively hunts for them...and if you say shield your daughter by taking her to and then call in favors with the Chiss Ascendency,

you have to go on the run and when your daughter finds you later in life she kills you AS A MERCY to protect you from what the Sith would do to you. (imperial agent story reference.)

 

Edited February 12, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Abvora]

I assumed every Force-sensitive was picked up and carted off to the Temple. Only the best actually became Jedi, while everyone else had the choice of staying and working as a librarian or something or returning home…to the parents they likely haven't seen in ten+ years. Edited February 14, 2015 by Abvora

[Ghisallo]

I assumed every Force-sensitive was picked up and carted off to the Temple. Only the best actually became Jedi, while everyone else had the choice of staying and working as a librarian or something or returning home…to the parents they likely haven't seen in ten+ years.

 

No because it's not like in the Republic a Force Sensitive is obvious. It's not like everyone is forced to go to the local Jedi Temple for a midi-chlorian test.

[Leaveshill]

No because it's not like in the Republic a Force Sensitive is obvious. It's not like everyone is forced to go to the local Jedi Temple for a midi-chlorian test.

 

An imperial quest on shows what happends tbh.

Jedi/pubs - does nothing with the ones that's not "capable" of becoming Jedi. Be it because of mindset, limits in force control or other reasons. There's nothing that proves that Jedi steals children, and at least it's part of SWTOR that the Jedi take the force sensitives that, according to the Inquisitor "Grasps nothing", to be farmers or whatever else they can be.

 

Of course, this might be lies and all. Who knows, maybe they're in reality supposed to lead the Jedi to victory!?

Jokes aside, the Jedi don't force anyone, war or no war. Maybe they're a bit more acceptable towards people with "the wrong morals" during war, but they certainly don't force anyone. Sure, a person might get forced, just like someone might in "real life", but force sensitives in the SWTOR eras don't meet any "demands" by the Jedi.

[Ghisallo]

An imperial quest on shows what happends tbh.

Jedi/pubs - does nothing with the ones that's not "capable" of becoming Jedi. Be it because of mindset, limits in force control or other reasons. There's nothing that proves that Jedi steals children, and at least it's part of SWTOR that the Jedi take the force sensitives that, according to the Inquisitor "Grasps nothing", to be farmers or whatever else they can be.

 

Of course, this might be lies and all. Who knows, maybe they're in reality supposed to lead the Jedi to victory!?

Jokes aside, the Jedi don't force anyone, war or no war. Maybe they're a bit more acceptable towards people with "the wrong morals" during war, but they certainly don't force anyone. Sure, a person might get forced, just like someone might in "real life", but force sensitives in the SWTOR eras don't meet any "demands" by the Jedi.

 

There was actually a good bit that I referenced in one of the books. It talks directly to how things happen with the Jedi getting children. How when they happen to come across them if the parents are present they get permission before opening the force sensitive to the force. The controversey in the case elaborated in the book was they thought the childs parents were killed and so took in what they believed to be an orphan. The crap hit the fan when it turned out Mom was alive just in a hospital.

 

the "jedi steal children" was actually a purposeful propaganda by certain factions that disliked the Jedi (for the book title but it was in the Post Epsisode VI EU time frame)

 

I know people don't like this because it gets in the way of what they like...no one wants to play "the total" bad guy... but News Flash...in the Star Wars Universe it is black and white (at least thus far) when it comes to the big picture....The sith are black hats and the jedi are the white hats. If You play Sith they are evil incarnate and want to dominate the galaxy for THEIR own personal goals, not any greater good.

 

If you want to play that faction that way.. own it. Or do what I do on my Agent. I am a patriot... trying to protect as many innocents inside the empire as possible from a corrupt gov't that would otherwise have them go through a meat grinder if that was the dark council's wish (hence why I took "the people's hero" option at the end of chapter 1). To be an evil SOB though and to then try and say "well the jedi are just as evil..." yeah... not even close to the truth.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Leaveshill]

There was actually a good bit that I referenced in one of the books. It talks directly to how things happen with the Jedi getting children. How when they happen to come across them if the parents are present they get permission before opening the force sensitive to the force. The controversey in the case elaborated in the book was they thought the childs parents were killed and so took in what they believed to be an orphan. The crap hit the fan when it turned out Mom was alive just in a hospital.

 

the "jedi steal children" was actually a purposeful propaganda by certain factions that disliked the Jedi (for the book title but it was in the Post Epsisode VI EU time frame)

 

I know people don't like this because it gets in the way of what they like...no one wants to play "the total" bad guy... but News Flash...in the Star Wars Universe it is black and white (at least thus far) when it comes to the big picture....The sith are black hats and the jedi are the white hats. If You play Sith they are evil incarnate and want to dominate the galaxy for THEIR own personal goals, not any greater good.

 

If you want to play that faction that way.. own it. Or do what I do on my Agent. I am a patriot... trying to protect as many innocents inside the empire as possible from a corrupt gov't that would otherwise have them go through a meat grinder if that was the dark council's wish (hence why I took "the people's hero" option at the end of chapter 1). To be an evil SOB though and to then try and say "well the jedi are just as evil..." yeah... not even close to the truth.

Well, I'm sure that a Jedi has stolen a kid once anyways. It's not a practice used, but I'm sure that the Jedi has a few rotten apples. And people shouldn't be suprised that the Jedi aren't stealing children. At least they're not in this Era, I haven't read the book in question.

 

And well, it's pretty black and white, but they do show a lot of Jedi cruelty as well. As Sith Inquisitor ; even if you try to speak with Noman Organa, he will attack you first. Doesn't matter, he'll attack you first unless you brought his GF; and if you did, he'll betray you and try to hunt you down anyways. Bad man.

The jedi strike team, which you can chose not to stop, murderes Elana Thul. A what, 20 year old girl? With no tactical importance at all.

I call that warcrimes. Murering young girls in their home. And that's what this Jedi striketeam set up to do. This is two examples, from one planet, and one quest actually, where different Jedi show their faces, and those faces certainly aren't moral. Escpecially the strike team. So it's not that black and white. And look at the ending of the Sith Inquisitor.

"We must push the Republic out of the galaxy, make sure they can never threaten us again", bla bla, something like that. Seems rather defensive to me. "From my POW, the Jedi are evil!", a wise man once said. Or at least he was a man.

Look at the Bounty Hunter storyline. How the Jedi set him up, with the help of the Supreme Chancellor. Corrupt.

How they murder his friends, and all the civilians in the casino-room. Murdering people looking to celebrate. It's no doubt that the Jedi are bad in many cases. That they're "the good side" doesn't make them white. Their black hates certainly have taints, at least.

 

The Jedi aren't "as bad" as the Sith. But they're bad as well. Satele isn't bad, no. But the Jedi is filled with bad individuals, Jedi commiting warcrimes aren't uncommon in SWTOR. As a Agent, the whatever-his-name is would, likely, when the Empire refuse to surrender, bomb Dromund Kaas and kill a few billions. "Good guys." Of course, some darker Jedi, like Karr, is still a good guy, even though he's not "light". Being Dark doesn't make one evil, and he's still a good guy. But the Jedi has a number of bad individuals, and it's not entirely black and white. The movies is black and white, but in SWTOR we see good Sith and bad Jedi as well. Most of the Sith you fight as a Jedi cannot be measured as they're the Emperor's most loyal servants, and his most loyal servants are of course "evil". They want to help him end all life, what kind of person does that? But the "normal" Sith aren't necessarily evil, just like the normal Jedi aren't neccessarily "purely good" either.

 

Not saying that you're mistaken that the Jedi are the "Good guys", of course. If we look at the crimes of each faction then it can be no doubt about who's "the worst".

But its' a fact that the Jedi have a ton of crimes on their hands as well, and that it's not entirely black and white.

 

And it's a bit more giving to be a Sith patriot than to be a sociopath, obviously. Or a agent-patriot, as you were.

[Ghisallo]

Well, I'm sure that a Jedi has stolen a kid once anyways. It's not a practice used, but I'm sure that the Jedi has a few rotten apples. And people shouldn't be suprised that the Jedi aren't stealing children. At least they're not in this Era, I haven't read the book in question.

 

You may be sure but it never happened in any of the books, comics, movies, cartoons etc and that is the world as we know (so to speak).

 

And well, it's pretty black and white, but they do show a lot of Jedi cruelty as well. As Sith Inquisitor ; even if you try to speak with Noman Organa, he will attack you first. Doesn't matter, he'll attack you first unless you brought his GF; and if you did, he'll betray you and try to hunt you down anyways. Bad man.

 

Not really...in High fanasy/space opera... when confronted with a representative of THE EVIL...the stereo typical "good guy" acts with singular purpose. That means you attack the deceptive "snake in the garden" evil.

 

The jedi strike team, which you can chose not to stop, murderes Elana Thul. A what, 20 year old girl? With no tactical importance at all.

 

Again you miss the point. That occurs because of what YOU did. She betrayed Alderaan to you (the SI) and the Empire. As such she is as guilty as you are for what happens, which includes you retrieving the artifact, which without her would have been impossible.

 

You need to look at these actions in context. Especially since due to the nature of the force, if it was indeed a warcrime the strike team would be 100% darkside at that point. They aren't because they attacked in the context of trying to prevent you from getting the artifact and more info to damage Alderaan. She was YOUR collateral damage.

 

"We must push the Republic out of the galaxy, make sure they can never threaten us again", bla bla, something like that. Seems rather defensive to me. "From my POW, the Jedi are evil!", a wise man once said. Or at least he was a man.

 

Yes and that "point of view" in the context of this universe was a self-serving rationalization created by someone trying to cope with the fact he had just killed hundreds of Children, a Jedi master who trusted him (Mace) and possibly the woman he loved.

 

Look at the Bounty Hunter storyline. How the Jedi set him up, with the help of the Supreme Chancellor. Corrupt. How they murder his friends, and all the civilians in the casino-room. Murdering people looking to celebrate. It's no doubt that the Jedi are bad in many cases. That they're "the good side" doesn't make them white. Their black hates certainly have taints, at least.

 

Again viewed outside the context. When looking at a fictional world you have to remove yourself from your prevered characters point of view. My preferred character is my Imperial Agent. As my character I am in the corrupt and evil land that is trying to A) make it less evil and B) mitigate the damage the evil would do otherwise. It doesn't change the fact that as "me" I see that my Character, if he REALLY was a person who wanted to make a difference (and if the game let me) I would have left for the SIS at the end of chapter 3 and when I saw Marr in SoR he would be saying "ahhh...the traitor" when I walked into the room. Why? BEcause if I was full light side I would not be able totolerate how my actions are pivotal in maintaining the existence of an evil and corrupt regime. Now since the game won't let me I am the "ghost" who wanders the Empire as a free agent, divorced completely from the corruption. Completely unrealistic but Bioware forces it on me.

 

The Jedi, due to how the force is set up in this world, simply can NOT commit war crimes. It is impossible to remain "in the light" and do so... period... Canon...the way this Universe operates. You commit war crimes and are a force user, the dark side takes over. Period, unless you are Mace Windu. he was a freak of nature.

 

The perfect example is the person you referenced before. Anakin on the surface may damn well have believed that what he was doing was for the good of peace and order. However in committing those acts he went Dark.

 

That is the good and bad of Lucas' creation. It is good in that it gives us a world where there is clear cut good and bad. The Good are good and the bad either embrace the fact they are bad by saying such concepts are artifical constructs with no real meaning OR try to rationalize how they are good...and in order to do so they must twist the actions of those who stand against them.

 

It is bad because in our modern age we stopped being able to accept such absolutes. We do not live in the times with the Lone Ranger, Lancelot etc are acceptable...they are either "corny" or we look to find a way to tear them down. We live in a time where the only kinda hero we accept readily are the batman's and wolverines. Heck I have friends that I saw The Winter Soldier with. When Capt made his "this isn't freedom it's fear comment" and Fury responded with the "we aren't going to wait..." thingie. I was cheering. My friends called Steve Rogers "Capt. ACLU."

 

Sad really.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Kyrrant]

Not saying that you're mistaken that the Jedi are the "Good guys", of course. If we look at the crimes of each faction then it can be no doubt about who's "the worst".

But its' a fact that the Jedi have a ton of crimes on their hands as well, and that it's not entirely black and white.

 

For the most part, I agree, although I think we disagree about the number of Jedi War Crimes that come about. Too many of the Imperial stories have the Jedi chars do stupid, evilish or so-overzealous-its-kinda-silly actions in order to make them the bad guys and the PC the good guys, as opposed to more complex avenues of storytelling (like Villain Protagonist, or focus on patriotism instead of good vs evil...), that its really easy to take all the examples and assume that it's a lot more representative than it actually is.

 

I do think that the state of war has induced a minor level of corruption into the Order, known as "Pragmatism", pushing many Jedi to do the Smart thing instead of doing the Right thing. War Crimes committed by Jedi that aren't on the verge of going full Dark Jedi are probably pretty rare, and would likely be on the order of "Jack Bauer Interrogation Techniques", where there's a literal ticking clock before a lot of people die.

 

...but, like I said, Imperial stories tended to write Jedi very, very poorly, making them ruthless and evil for no real reason, aside from a desire to have a foe that Light Side Imperials would want to kill...

[Leaveshill]

La la .

 

 

I meant that it's not unlikely to have happend over a few thousand years. Nothing more or less. Maybe it didn't, we don't have the stories of a billion jedi anyways.

 

And well, "the evil" isn't "The evil" in this case. You're missing the point in this aspect, I am not. He gave his word, and broke it. That's not "a good act".

 

Also, Elana Thul and House Thul is attacked because of the attack on House Alde. Meaning; REVENGE. Not to stop Nox. You haven't played the SI as many times as me, which is clear. She's killed because of Jedi. How can you even say such a thing? "It's your fault that I killed her." is not correct, not at all. I've never allowed them to murder her, but that happends if you're "a bit darker" than I am.

I mean... It's a 10/10 example of Jedi warcrimes. And you try to defend it by saying "Hey, no, it's not right, she died because YOU are a bad guy, and those Jedi aren't responsible for their own actions."

It's one thing to like the Jedi, another to be blinded by it. It's a fact that they murdered a young girl in her home, or at least plotted to do so. Because, if Nox refused to kill all those Jedi, they instead brutalize a young girl. In her home. "Because she's a traitor." She's a young girl with a different political mindset, what makes that treason? It's not treason, she thinks it's best and that's reasonable.

They don't even know if SHE helped, they don't even know who Nox is, they just know that I'm Sith and that Thul must pay. It has NOTHING, at all, to do with the artifact. Again, they have no idea whatsover about any artifacts. They're there for "retaliation" because Nox broke into Alde's libraries.

"Good guys." Again, Noman is excused for attacking first, but if he gives his word then takes it back (as he does if you try to make he and Rehana together again), then he's not "a good guy" in that story. Fact.

And the Jedi Strike team was sent by the Republic to spread death, not to "stop you from getting an artifact!"

They don't even HAVE anything to do with Nomar Organa, just saying. They're there on Republic orders, he's there for his private reasons. And their murder of a young, defenseless girl is a perfect example on how war makes people act. The Dark side isn't fuelled by murder, it's fuelled by emotion, if you kill a young girl "because she has to die", while having control of your emotion, then you don't "fall". Jedi learn to supress their emotion, and if you look at her and thing "Threat, has to die" and kill her without giving it any thought, then you won't fall. It's the hatred, fear and anger that leads to the dark side. Doing a bad act without any emotion whatsoever can't lead to the dark side. At least that'd make no sense at all. The dark side = emotion, the light side = no emotion, and you can't be dark if you don't have any emotion whatsoever.

Anyways, the Jedi has no proof of her helping you. You kow this, they don't. They don't know about any artifact, you do. Only Nomar Organa, Elana and Nox knows. The Jedi are not aware of this, nor do they know if Elana Thul had anything to do with the attack on House Alde.

 

And yeah I didn't say that his POW was correct, I just said that it's always a POW. Your POW is far from neutral as well, as you're defending war crimes as long as it's your own faction doing them. Killing helpless young girls aren't our fault, if they're sided with the enemy! In a manner, your POW is the same as Anakin's. as he's defending his murders, and you're defending the Jedi warcrimes regarding Elana Thul by claiming that it's the Inquisitor's fault that they murder her, in her home, defenseless. I'm sure you see how alike those cases are if you think about it.

 

And well, Mace "was a beast" indeed, but if he can do it, others can to. Dark or Light isn't all. Maybe in some aspects, but Lucas and his "right and wrong" system isn't relevant anymore and SWTOR has it's "own lore", as did KOTOR, not made by Lucas and Lucas has no say in anything anymore. SWTOR is trying to be more "reasonable" and here it's clearly shown dark siders doing good deeds and vice versa. Do you mean that "Dark side=evil=everyone wants to kill everything they see", or more that "Dark=Dark and light=light", which is true, but dark doesn't need to make you a monster, nor does light have to make you a saint.

 

And what you said about "modern heroes/villains" and "The old ones" are completely true, people are fed up with the superhero that's "too perfect to be true", and that's why TOR didn't make that, and as stated Lucas and his vision isn't relevant at all anymore, nor will it ever be again. He sold his rights and what he stated to be true isn't any more true than SWTOR. It's now only the movies and those series, + the coming movies, while our games/EU and all that is just, well, "other". SWTOR claims that both Jedi and Sith can be bad, then it's true.

And your agent, well, might be too negative to the Empire to even be there. I'd guess that you should've been a defector, as you're allowed to defect and be a double agent, which might've made more sense for you.

 

 

a la la .

 

 

What you said here is completely true. But it's also true for the Republic side regarding the Sith/Empire. It's a easier for Bioware to make "villains" like, Baras(complete traitor to everyone that serves him, including the PC, who don't want to kill him?) than villains such as Hunter (I mean, who wouldn't feel a bit sorry for her?) or Thanaton, which in truth "does the right thing" by trying to purge his Order of someone "homicidal and dangerous". In most quests, you'll kill a Sith that's plotting to murder everyone "Because that's awesome and stuff", as those guys are most fun to kill. And the planetary-quests, which are made "simpler" in most ways, than the class stories, are often very reliant on the "you must face a bad guy"-factor, and therefore they'll often make the Jedi more zealous and the Sith more insane than what they well, have to be.

 

I just wanted to point out that SWTOR isn't just black and white, and that both sides have their rotten apples. It's no doubt which side stands "on the light side", of course. Everyone knows that the Jedi do that, but it doesn't mean that every Jedi is a good guy and every Sith is a bad guy,

 

[Ghisallo]

I meant that it's not unlikely to have happend over a few thousand years. Nothing more or less. Maybe it didn't, we don't have the stories of a billion jedi anyways.

 

And well, "the evil" isn't "The evil" in this case. You're missing the point in this aspect, I am not. He gave his word, and broke it. That's not "a good act".

 

Also, Elana Thul and House Thul is attacked because of the attack on House Alde. Meaning; REVENGE. Not to stop Nox. You haven't played the SI as many times as me, which is clear. She's killed because of Jedi. How can you even say such a thing? "It's your fault that I killed her." is not correct, not at all. I've never allowed them to murder her, but that happends if you're "a bit darker" than I am.

I mean... It's a 10/10 example of Jedi warcrimes. And you try to defend it by saying "Hey, no, it's not right, she died because YOU are a bad guy, and those Jedi aren't responsible for their own actions."

It's one thing to like the Jedi, another to be blinded by it. It's a fact that they murdered a young girl in her home, or at least plotted to do so. Because, if Nox refused to kill all those Jedi, they instead brutalize a young girl. In her home. "Because she's a traitor." She's a young girl with a different political mindset, what makes that treason? It's not treason, she thinks it's best and that's reasonable.

They don't even know if SHE helped, they don't even know who Nox is, they just know that I'm Sith and that Thul must pay. It has NOTHING, at all, to do with the artifact. Again, they have no idea whatsover about any artifacts. They're there for "retaliation" because Nox broke into Alde's libraries.

"Good guys." Again, Noman is excused for attacking first, but if he gives his word then takes it back (as he does if you try to make he and Rehana together again), then he's not "a good guy" in that story. Fact.

And the Jedi Strike team was sent by the Republic to spread death, not to "stop you from getting an artifact!"

They don't even HAVE anything to do with Nomar Organa, just saying. They're there on Republic orders, he's there for his private reasons. And their murder of a young, defenseless girl is a perfect example on how war makes people act. The Dark side isn't fuelled by murder, it's fuelled by emotion, if you kill a young girl "because she has to die", while having control of your emotion, then you don't "fall". Jedi learn to supress their emotion, and if you look at her and thing "Threat, has to die" and kill her without giving it any thought, then you won't fall. It's the hatred, fear and anger that leads to the dark side. Doing a bad act without any emotion whatsoever can't lead to the dark side. At least that'd make no sense at all. The dark side = emotion, the light side = no emotion, and you can't be dark if you don't have any emotion whatsoever.

Anyways, the Jedi has no proof of her helping you. You kow this, they don't. They don't know about any artifact, you do. Only Nomar Organa, Elana and Nox knows. The Jedi are not aware of this, nor do they know if Elana Thul had anything to do with the attack on House Alde.

 

And yeah I didn't say that his POW was correct, I just said that it's always a POW. Your POW is far from neutral as well, as you're defending war crimes as long as it's your own faction doing them. Killing helpless young girls aren't our fault, if they're sided with the enemy! In a manner, your POW is the same as Anakin's. as he's defending his murders, and you're defending the Jedi warcrimes regarding Elana Thul by claiming that it's the Inquisitor's fault that they murder her, in her home, defenseless. I'm sure you see how alike those cases are if you think about it.

 

And well, Mace "was a beast" indeed, but if he can do it, others can to. Dark or Light isn't all. Maybe in some aspects, but Lucas and his "right and wrong" system isn't relevant anymore and SWTOR has it's "own lore", as did KOTOR, not made by Lucas and Lucas has no say in anything anymore. SWTOR is trying to be more "reasonable" and here it's clearly shown dark siders doing good deeds and vice versa. Do you mean that "Dark side=evil=everyone wants to kill everything they see", or more that "Dark=Dark and light=light", which is true, but dark doesn't need to make you a monster, nor does light have to make you a saint.

 

And what you said about "modern heroes/villains" and "The old ones" are completely true, people are fed up with the superhero that's "too perfect to be true", and that's why TOR didn't make that, and as stated Lucas and his vision isn't relevant at all anymore, nor will it ever be again. He sold his rights and what he stated to be true isn't any more true than SWTOR. It's now only the movies and those series, + the coming movies, while our games/EU and all that is just, well, "other". SWTOR claims that both Jedi and Sith can be bad, then it's true.

And your agent, well, might be too negative to the Empire to even be there. I'd guess that you should've been a defector, as you're allowed to defect and be a double agent, which might've made more sense for you.

 

Just going to address your "innocent" girl. She is YOUR collateral damage because her helping you is part and parcel with the house attacking Alde etc. So the Republic and it's allies counter attack. During the Counter attack she dies. If you chose the non-darkside option (I think it is a neutral choice) and respond to her call that they are subject to a counter attack she survives.

 

Hell she isn't even a civilian technically. You are making her sound like some innocent girl hiding behind her father's robes. She is one of the leaders herself. If you accept her call to defend Thul against "Organa's Jedi" she tells you killing the Jedi is top priority. She is a viable military target from everything she did...sex and age not with standing and targeting her is not a war crime but perfectly acceptable under the rules of war.

 

Also I agree that the Jedi are pragmatic. Where we differ is that I think however that they were always pragmatic, the difference is they have more... Limits to how far they can take pragmatism. When they are at peace they are rarely pushed to those limits and so the pragmatism is often not obvious. However they are now at war against what is historically their greatest enemy and by her actions Elana Thul is a legitimate military target. Attack her house and killing her is no different than attacking a Nazi command bunker in WWII. Not a war crime in the least but rather an accepted military tactic. No different than when you launch a Hellfire off a drone and blow up the car carrying one of the leaders of ISIS.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Leaveshill]

Just going to address your "innocent" girl. She is YOUR collateral damage because her helping you is part and parcel with the house attacking Alde etc. So the Republic and it's allies counter attack. During the Counter attack she dies. If you chose the non-darkside option (I think it is a neutral choice) and respond to her call that they are subject to a counter attack she survives.

 

Hell she isn't even a civilian technically. You are making her sound like some innocent girl hiding behind her father's robes. She is one of the leaders herself. If you accept her call to defend Thul against "Organa's Jedi" she tells you killing the Jedi is top priority. She is a viable military target from everything she did...sex and age not with standing and targeting her is not a war crime but perfectly acceptable under the rules of war.

 

Also I agree that the Jedi are pragmatic. Where we differ is that I think however that they were always pragmatic, the difference is they have more... Limits to how far they can take pragmatism. When they are at peace they are rarely pushed to those limits and so the pragmatism is often not obvious. However they are now at war against what is historically their greatest enemy and by her actions Elana Thul is a legitimate military target. Attack her house and killing her is no different than attacking a Nazi command bunker in WWII. Not a war crime in the least but rather an accepted military tactic. No different than when you launch a Hellfire off a drone and blow up the car carrying one of the leaders of ISIS.

 

 

Well. She hasn't murdered anybody, has she? And she is defenseless, she has no weapons. It's called murder to kill someone without a weapon. Assassination would be more fitting. And well, mayb she is legitimate. The Jedi, however, don't know about her role, as I said.

 

Also; I stated at least once that I never did let them murder her. I just know that if I refuse to help, then they murder her in her chambers. Seems like cold blooded murder to me, but of course "if it's for the greater good" then it can be defended from the person's POW.

But again, I never did let them do it, I've stoped them five times and well, maybe I'll have to stop them again some day.

 

*Also ; Killing people in a bunker is one thing, killing them in their home, in a major city, filled with civilans, cannot be compared. It's the Anakin argument really, "From my POW the Jedi are evil", therefore labeling that "No, it's moral to murder people in their bedrooms if they're against us!".

Also, I did state a number of times that I did save her every time. Does it make the emperor innocent that you stop him from commiting genocide? No, it doesn't. Saving someone doesn't take away the blame from the offender. In this case, Jedi.

 

*Could actually ignore this post as we're discussing "simular" things other places and no need for you to bother with answering two almost simular posts. Anyways, I'm certain that we're "sort of agreeing", in some ways, and that some aspects will just stay on edge

Edited February 17, 2015 by Leaveshill