Mace Windu vs Darth Vader

[Rhyltran]

Windu didn't get fried. He didn't lose the battle vs Sidious' lightning before he lost his arm and was thrown the hell out of the window.

 

The novelization heavily implies that Sidious was going to disarm him with his force lightning/possibly break his lightsaber if he kept it up. If he amped it up like he did when he said, "Unlimited power" yes Windu was about to lose his saber.

[emeraldon]

The novelization heavily implies that Sidious was going to disarm him with his force lightning/possibly break his lightsaber if he kept it up. If he amped it up like he did when he said, "Unlimited power" yes Windu was about to lose his saber.

 

But is the novelization chosen over the movies? If we're speaking strictly canon here. In the movies Sidious is the one to give out.

[Ghisallo]

The novelization heavily implies that Sidious was going to disarm him with his force lightning/possibly break his lightsaber if he kept it up. If he amped it up like he did when he said, "Unlimited power" yes Windu was about to lose his saber.

 

First the Novel no longer exists for canon. Sorry its bye bye. All we have are 6 screen plays and 2 cartoons. In the movie there is NO indication that Mace was handed the light saber duel and at worst you can say his saber vs Sidious force lightning is a draw....until Anakin comes in.

 

There is a reason for this decision BTW. If you read the screenplay vs the adult novelization vs the junior novelization there are crazy contradictions. I'll use the most notable... Yoda v Sidious. In the adult novels office scene Yoda deflects the force lightning and takes oout Sidious guards...in the screenplay he is stunned...in the junior novelization he was playing possum. In the senate chamber the screenplay has Yoda losing his saber and makes it clear the only reason Yoda falls is he was closer to the edge of the platform. In the novel Yoda never even stops the force lightning and is knocked back mid air...still has his light saber and when he finishes falling using The lightsaber he never lost to cut his way through duct work.

 

We are talking 2 canon characters...so we should use canon...which does NOT include novelizations.

[Rhyltran]

But is the novelization chosen over the movies? If we're speaking strictly canon here. In the movies Sidious is the one to give out.

 

The novels are only non-canon when it conflicts with the movie. Sidious deciding to stop just as mace was about to give out is not contradicted in the films. We don't know in the films because it doesn't say. Therefore, the novel is canon in this regard.

 

First the Novel no longer exists for canon. Sorry its bye bye. All we have are 6 screen plays and 2 cartoons. In the movie there is NO indication that Mace was handed the light saber duel and at worst you can say his saber vs Sidious force lightning is a draw....until Anakin comes in.

 

There is a reason for this decision BTW. If you read the screenplay vs the adult novelization vs the junior novelization there are crazy contradictions. I'll use the most notable... Yoda v Sidious. In the adult novels office scene Yoda deflects the force lightning and takes oout Sidious guards...in the screenplay he is stunned...in the junior novelization he was playing possum. In the senate chamber the screenplay has Yoda losing his saber and makes it clear the only reason Yoda falls is he was closer to the edge of the platform. In the novel Yoda never even stops the force lightning and is knocked back mid air...still has his light saber and when he finishes falling using The lightsaber he never lost to cut his way through duct work.

 

We are talking 2 canon characters...so we should use canon...which does NOT include novelizations.

 

In this case? It's just speculation and there's no clear answer.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Leaveshill]

First the Novel no longer exists for canon. Sorry its bye bye. All we have are 6 screen plays and 2 cartoons. In the movie there is NO indication that Mace was handed the light saber duel and at worst you can say his saber vs Sidious force lightning is a draw....until Anakin comes in.

 

There is a reason for this decision BTW. If you read the screenplay vs the adult novelization vs the junior novelization there are crazy contradictions. I'll use the most notable... Yoda v Sidious. In the adult novels office scene Yoda deflects the force lightning and takes oout Sidious guards...in the screenplay he is stunned...in the junior novelization he was playing possum. In the senate chamber the screenplay has Yoda losing his saber and makes it clear the only reason Yoda falls is he was closer to the edge of the platform. In the novel Yoda never even stops the force lightning and is knocked back mid air...still has his light saber and when he finishes falling using The lightsaber he never lost to cut his way through duct work.

 

We are talking 2 canon characters...so we should use canon...which does NOT include novelizations.

 

Sidious> Windu.

Sidous>Yoda.

Sidious-You.

 

Sidious is clearly the victor, a novel will always be more accurate than a movie as we can never actually know what's going on in their heads, while in the novel we get to feel everything they feel and therefore get the truth.

*As long as the novel is accepted as equal to the movie, which is not a question in this case, and of course as long as the novel does not "disagree" with the movie. In this case it does not, as we can't see what Palpatine feels (only what he says, and we know that he's a master at manipulation.) - So if it's stated that he allowed himself to look "beaten" to turn Anakin, then that happened. It always seemed a bit cheap for Sidious to lose after his massive display at the start of the scene, and it's logical that he allowed himself to lose for the sake of his plan (when Anakin entered:)

Edited January 27, 2015 by Leaveshill

[Ghisallo]

In this case? It's just speculation and there's no clear answer.

 

No it's not. We can look at the movies and the Cartoons and say "Did Vader/Anakin every demonstrate any of the feats Windu does (especially in terms of the Cartoons.)"

 

Answer no. If you have not watched Clone Wars cartoon I can elaborate on Windu feats btw.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Ghisallo]

Sidious> Windu.

Sidous>Yoda.

Sidious-You.

 

Sidious is clearly the victor, a novel will always be more accurate than a movie as we can never actually know what's going on in their heads, while in the novel we get to feel everything they feel and therefore get the truth.

*As long as the novel is accepted as equal to the movie, which is not a question in this case, and of course as long as the novel does not "disagree" with the movie. In this case it does not, as we can't see what Palpatine feels (only what he says, and we know that he's a master at manipulation.) - So if it's stated that he allowed himself to look "beaten" to turn Anakin, then that happened. It always seemed a bit cheap for Sidious to lose after his massive display at the start of the scene, and it's logical that he allowed himself to lose for the sake of his plan (when Anakin entered:)

 

 

Actually screenplays can do a good job of explaining what is going on....almost as good as a book. The screenplay, not the script, gives the characters the motivation behind what they are doing. It is what tells the guys playing Sidious and Windu what they should be projecting through facial expression and body language to the audience.

 

In the Canon Screenplay Windu wins the lightsaber duel because he was the better lightsaber duelist (though arguably only against darksiders due to Vaapad) Sidious would kick his butt with everything else.

 

In essence Sidious from the jump should have fried Windu. Maybe he did it to delay to let Anakin get there. Maybe he did it because pride got in the way and he thought he could take Windu. Not saying Windu would beat Sidious in total...only that if it was lightsaber's only...as the fight was until Sidious got disarmed, in the narrow window only, Windu is better.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Wolfninjajedi]

Vader, their dueling skill is rather negligible really, Windu takes a slight edge but it doesn't matter. Vader meanwhile is more powerful, more durable, comparable in speed and is stronger. Edited January 28, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[tunewalker]

Just going based on everything I have read. When you read the side books (that is what I call the books that read more like history books and encylopedias) they refer to Sidious as the greatest of the Sith swordsmasters. In essence Sidious was THE ultimate Sith. The actual Novels leave certain things up in the air for sure, it's those side books I find most interesting though. Probably comes for originally getting a degree in history, I am used to reading and writing in that kind of style

 

I think you are still forgetting styles to a degree. Anakin was of comparable skill to Windu, and in his Prime as Vader he was BETTER then he was as Anakin.

 

For a better understanding of why I said Djem So is "as much" Aikido as Vaapad, and why I thought it would be a MUCH better counter to Vaapad then Juyo.

 

 

First Juyo unique Weaknesses when facing Vaapad.

 

Juyo was described as the most vicious form of lightsaber combat, and was said to be filled with both fury and "malignant grace."[11]

 

as many felt that Juyo violated the "there is no emotion, there is peace" tenet of the Jedi Code due to its requirement to fight under the guidance of controlled passion.

 

"The form was said to necessitate greater energy than Form V, due to a broader wielding of a user's focus and a deeper emotional link."

 

The energy it talks about here is Force Energy, of course, not physical as Form 5 is listed as the most PHYSICALLY demanding. But here we can see a lot of force energy and focus on pure rage and passion is the basic tenant of this form.

 

Vaapad

 

"The practitioner of Vaapad would accept the fury of their opponent, transforming them into one half of a superconducting loop, with the other half being the power of darkness inherent in the opponent.[13]"

 

Already this form is a DIRECT counter to Juyo, as Juyo is BUILT on letting your Fury guide you and this is built on letting your OPPONENTS furry guide you. Of course it also had a high reliance and pull on the force.

 

Both usually have a slight defensive weakness as they focus so heavily on offense, but we can already see Vaapad was almost BUILT to be a counter to Juyo, so its no wonder Windu did well against Sidious.

 

Now Form V... specifically Djem So

 

Immediately after defending against an opponent's strike, a Djem So stylist followed with an attack of their own, bringing the force of the opponent's own blow against them and seeking to dominate the duel.

 

Some Jedi, noting its dedication to domination and strength, felt that Form V encouraged an inappropriate focus on controlling one's assailants.

 

Both Shien and Djem So were designed to use an opponent's attack against them, as evidenced by Shien's focus on returning blaster bolts to their origin and Djem So's emphasis on immediately striking back after a blow.

 

Form V required a higher level of physical strength than the other lightsaber forms, due to its focus on complete domination of its practitioners' opponents.[1]

 

as you can see here focus on furry or giving ones self over to the fight is not here at all, HOWEVER its strong defense combined with the idea of taking your opponents power blows and turning them AGAINST them following with a power blow that emphasises PHYSICAL strength rather then pure Force power would allow the Djem So user against a Vaapad user to have much greater Longevity as well as a better defense mechanism. Juyo and Vaapad are not defensive forms, but Djem So focuses on taking an offensive attack and then FORCING the opponent into a defensive Posture and never letting them leave it. Its not focused on the Furry that Vaapad can normally feed off of, but rather focused on turning an opponents attacks against them and completely CONTROLLING the duel threw PHYSICAL strength.

 

I honestly think Djem So is the Answer to Vaapad here. Vader is more then Physically strong enough, and if he can force Windu into a defensive posture, that is NOT Windu's forte. The power through the force and physical strength Windu will bear against Vader early is going to be turned against him as Vader deflects the blow and uses the momentum to increase the strength of his own blade. Once he puts Windu on the Defensive he will KEEP him there and keep Windu out of his element, making it difficult for Windu to come back, and with the heavy reliance on the Force for such attacks, any force attacks from Vader will have an easier time, AND his ability to fight a prolonged battle again him will also be hindered.

 

 

Remember Form V is also Known as The Perseverance Form, meaning it THRIVES in difficult situations.

 

Perseverance : steady persistence in a course of action, a purpose, a state, etc., especially in spite of difficulties, obstacles, or discouragement.

 

While form VII is known as The Ferocity Form. Its no wonder Vaapad Countered it.

 

 

Edit: its steady and strong vs Wild and powerful, if I had to place bets, it would be on the Steady and Strong.

Edited January 28, 2015 by tunewalker

[Leaveshill]

Actually screenplays can do a good job of explaining what is going on....almost as good as a book. The screenplay, not the script, gives the characters the motivation behind what they are doing. It is what tells the guys playing Sidious and Windu what they should be projecting through facial expression and body language to the audience.

 

In the Canon Screenplay Windu wins the lightsaber duel because he was the better lightsaber duelist (though arguably only against darksiders due to Vaapad) Sidious would kick his butt with everything else.

 

In essence Sidious from the jump should have fried Windu. Maybe he did it to delay to let Anakin get there. Maybe he did it because pride got in the way and he thought he could take Windu. Not saying Windu would beat Sidious in total...only that if it was lightsaber's only...as the fight was until Sidious got disarmed, in the narrow window only, Windu is better.

 

Screenplays can be good, but they can be understood differently through symbolism. And Sidious has a hundred facial expressions in every fight for instance, that does not mean that he's panicing but that he's feeding of his every emotion, fear included.

 

If you get his true thoughts, then you will get it directly and without a doubt. You'll only see the world with his eyes (which might be limited as he's biased), but you'll get 100% what he's thinking, and if he "surrenders" for Anakin or not. would then be possible to reveal, as the scene does not prove either way right.

It's possible that he did disarm Sidious without Sidious intending to get disarmed, but we don't know that 100%. I'm sure however that Sidious did not mean to get disarmed at that point.

But I'm also certain that Sidious did have more power left and that he possibly made a martyr of himself in front of Anakin to manipulate him, because of the texts. From the scene, then I was always very uncertain. It was a 50-50 to me, but the novels sway it in the favor of Sidious allowing himself to look weak to fool Anakin and give the final push.

[Ghisallo]

Leaves.. I think you don't quite get the idea of the filming screenplay/script. Now most of us, if we acted at all, either did live stage stuff or improv. The filming screenplay will say stuff like "Sidious struggles against Windu's assault" or "...pretends to struggle..." So that the actor has guidance and so the director can say "bring it..." Or down a notch. Since the novel no longer exists in terms of Canon the old Canon rule of "if the novel doesn't contradict the film the novel is canon" also no longer exists. To continue to use the novel is in essence using a false metric.

 

Is it frustrating that things we used to hold as fact no longer exist. Because they are using only the screenplays and cartoons we could quite literally hear Luke lament "...Yoda once told me that the light is stronger than the dark. That Sidious only won because of his brilliant conspiracy to control the Grand Army of the Republic. He could have defeated Sidious alone but with the Army behind him the battle was lost." This would contradict the novelization but would not contradict the screen play.

 

Now I am not saying of course Disney will do this BUT the reason behind declaring the only Canon is from the screenplays and cartoons was to do a partial reboot. They know starting from episode I or IV in a way similar to the new Star Trek series would cause a COMPLETE melt down among the fans. They have already told George "thanks but no thanks on the story he would have based episodes VII through IX on, so they have narrowed the Canon to the bare minimum to give their screenwriters and directors flexibility to have the story go in a different direction.

 

TL;DR. When comparing Canon Characters you can only use Canon. The Canon only counts screenplays and cartoons. The novels do not exist...ergo their descriptions are irrelevant.

[Ghisallo]

 

 

Both Shien and Djem So were designed to use an opponent's attack against them, as evidenced by Shien's focus on returning blaster bolts to their origin and Djem So's emphasis on immediately striking back after a blow.

 

/snip.

 

Your argument applies to Shien with blaster attacks but this is not about blaster attacks. As for Djem the person who says you use the enemies strength against them clearly has no clue what a counter attack entails in swordmanship. As a matter of fact when you read the description of Djem the text, from a martial arts perspective, contradicts itself. It says uses the enemies attack against them by going directly into a counter attack. That is not using the enemies strength against them. That is a matter of your personal strength and speed, being able to go from blocking a blow immediately into a counter attack. At best you could say that one indirectly uses the enemies strength against them by allowing the opponents powerful strikes to go wide to give you an opening...however this is not the same as Aikido and Jujutsu where you literally allow the energy of the enemies attack to be the energy the directly hurts them. (Another classic example of this is when Steven Segal is scene essentially clotheslining charging opponents.

 

You use the enemies strength against them when say in Aikido you take hold of your opponents arm, move yourself out of the enemies path and then have their attack hurl themselves to the ground because you have no longer become a target but rather a pivot point.

 

Vaapad also is not really form VII. It is categorized there because that was the form Mace started with but Vaapad is described as more of a mind set. Vaapad is as steady or strong as the opponent you are fighting. You take the anger, rage etc of you foe and create a super conducting loop. Using Vaapad is ultimately no different than using the force while using other forms. You can feed off your opponents passions while using any form...as we see Mace do against Sidious. He is shown using virtually every form there. You can see he initially starts with Soresu when Sidious attacks (based on stance and how many of his moves match those that Obi Wan will later use when fighting Vader on the Death Star, which has been identified as Soresu.). When they separate from each other he then goes into a classic Shien starting stance. Then he clearly goes into Djem at the "window break scene" as he is parrying Sidious attacks, he parries them wide in order to try and force openings for counter attacks. All the while though you see that he is using Vaapad due to clear emotion reflected on Mace's face, often almost mirroring the look on Sidious' face (though I think Samuel L does a MUCH better "angry" face than Ian McDiarmid lol)

 

Your enemy (if using the Darkside) makes you more powerful. The transition of Anakin to Vader is the transition of someone who fights from a position of peace...."No mind" to a person who fights using their passions. The last fights in the prequels against Dooku and Obi Wan illustrate this perfectly. So regardless of what form.

 

Now some people may say I over analyze the fight scenes but having study more than a couple martial arts over the years I tend to do this with movies. /shrug.

[tunewalker]

Your argument applies to Shien with blaster attacks but this is not about blaster attacks. As for Djem the person who says you use the enemies strength against them clearly has no clue what a counter attack entails in swordmanship. As a matter of fact when you read the description of Djem the text, from a martial arts perspective, contradicts itself. It says uses the enemies attack against them by going directly into a counter attack. That is not using the enemies strength against them. That is a matter of your personal strength and speed, being able to go from blocking a blow immediately into a counter attack. At best you could say that one indirectly uses the enemies strength against them by allowing the opponents powerful strikes to go wide to give you an opening...however this is not the same as Aikido and Jujutsu where you literally allow the energy of the enemies attack to be the energy the directly hurts them. (Another classic example of this is when Steven Segal is scene essentially clotheslining charging opponents.

 

You use the enemies strength against them when say in Aikido you take hold of your opponents arm, move yourself out of the enemies path and then have their attack hurl themselves to the ground because you have no longer become a target but rather a pivot point.

 

Vaapad also is not really form VII. It is categorized there because that was the form Mace started with but Vaapad is described as more of a mind set. Vaapad is as steady or strong as the opponent you are fighting. You take the anger, rage etc of you foe and create a super conducting loop. Using Vaapad is ultimately no different than using the force while using other forms. You can feed off your opponents passions while using any form...as we see Mace do against Sidious. He is shown using virtually every form there. You can see he initially starts with Soresu when Sidious attacks (based on stance and how many of his moves match those that Obi Wan will later use when fighting Vader on the Death Star, which has been identified as Soresu.). When they separate from each other he then goes into a classic Shien starting stance. Then he clearly goes into Djem at the "window break scene" as he is parrying Sidious attacks, he parries them wide in order to try and force openings for counter attacks. All the while though you see that he is using Vaapad due to clear emotion reflected on Mace's face, often almost mirroring the look on Sidious' face (though I think Samuel L does a MUCH better "angry" face than Ian McDiarmid lol)

 

Your enemy (if using the Darkside) makes you more powerful. The transition of Anakin to Vader is the transition of someone who fights from a position of peace...."No mind" to a person who fights using their passions. The last fights in the prequels against Dooku and Obi Wan illustrate this perfectly. So regardless of what form.

 

Now some people may say I over analyze the fight scenes but having study more than a couple martial arts over the years I tend to do this with movies. /shrug.

 

Lightsaber forms Do not Equal Real world sword fighting or martial arts, same with the Force in general.

 

While the philosophy may not work in a REAL WORLD setting, in Lightsaber battles between 2 force users it clearly does.

 

So in the case of Star Wars.. as all the sources show, Djem So DOES use your opponents strength against them. I also do not think you understood my arguement on Vaapad and why it is a perfect COUNTER to Form VII Juyo that Palpatine employed. Form VII demands the most Force Energy (Both versions Vaapad and Juyo) and Juyo is around giving ones self over to passion and Fury, while Vaapad is about ACCEPTING that furry and turning it into a loop to use against your opponent. Djem So is NOT about either of those, but rather about controling the pace of the fight and physically controlling your opponent in the duel.

 

Vaapad IS described as fast and unpredictable, as well as highly aggressive and not so much defensive, JUST LIKE JUYO... the physical tenants of Vaapad and Juyo are for all intents and purposes the exact same. The difference is the Mental and Force tenants, Juyo Users let their own passions and fury dictate the fight, while the Vaapad user lets the passions of his opponent dictate the fight.

 

The Djem So user on the other hand uses the momentum of his opponent to pound his own blade down harder. If a person were to charge a Djem So user and Swing, the Djem so user using the basis of defense picked up from Soresu would guide that person's blade to the path of least resistance allowing the person to finish their strike in the most fluid and unimposing way possible, but in that exact SAME movement adding momentum to their own blade strike they would also strike back at their opponent, its the basic tenant of the move known as the Fluid Riposte which is a guiding principle of the form. The defense to Offense is all done in a single motion and the power the opponent used to push on the Djem So users blade is transfered into the momentum of the Djem So users own attack thus using the force of their opponents blow against them, allowing their swing to finish throwing them off balance and then answering with a blow of their own that has that power transfered.

 

 

It may not make sense to you as a martial artist, as the method "shouldnt work" but that doesnt mean in a universe with things like the force that the method "doesnt work" Form V both Shien and Djem So were focused on using an opponents attack against them. Shien accomplished it through blast deflection. Djem So accomplished it through the Fluid Riposte.

 

 

Also Vaapad was named after this creature http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Vaapad another name for the creature was the Juyo... that should tell you how many Tenants the Vaapad Lightsaber form Shared with the Juyo Lightsaber form.

 

Many of what you are seeing with the forms were described (as far as I know) in both the books and the Screen play as "Vaapad" or "Windu's style" I dont think the screen play had any of the style at all, or even the internal force struggle, nor would anything except the books go into Sidious being the best Sith swords master, but if we are to include the books and Sidious's claim to Sith Sword mastery then we have to also include that Windu ONLY used Vaapad in his fight against the Emperor. Those other forms you saw, werent forms as much as they were momentary techniques of Vaapad, which isnt surprising as Vaapad and Juyo have both been described as

 

"The form's attacks appeared to be unconnected, its motions seemingly unpolished to an untrained observer.[17]"

So its no wonder why any one of us looking in on that fight would think we would see spaterings of other forms, when in fact there is none.

 

My point I think was also missed further in the "accepting Fury" Since Juyo particularly FIGHTS with Fury as its main driving and selling point it would be easy for a Vaapad user to draw on it and use that Fury against the Juyo User (Sidious vs Windu in this case). But a Djem So user doesnt fight with emotional fury but with Physical strength, they dont let the Force Dominate the Duel, they dont let Passion dominate the duel, they dont let Fury dominate the Duel, they dont let their Opponent Dominate the Duel, THEY Dominate the Duel. They dictate how the Duel will be fought. Windu doesnt NEARLY have as much of an easy time to draw on here, and Vader is more then skilled enough that the lesser energy more defensive capable Djem So can, and I believe likely WOULD defeat Windu's more aggressive Vaapad. While Windu has shown the ability to defend as a Vapaad user, I think it can only last so long and Vader's PHYSICAL strength will overwhelm Windu, Vader is also more then skilled enough to use Fluid Riposte against one of Windu's power strikes allowing for a simple light parry and powerful strike in the same single motion.

 

 

Edit: I think the main Point that was being missed is, while YES Windu will be able to draw on SOME of Vader's fury behind his blade work, that fury is no where near as meaningful to Vader's blade work as Palpatine's fury was. So Windu is getting a MUCH smaller power boost from it to the point of it not making a difference in overcoming Vader's Unnatural Cybernetic Physical augmentation. Further more Djem So CAN AND WILL take the Fury of a Vaapads kenetic force and turn it against Windu. Thus Windu is pulling on Vader's Mental state, and Vader is pulling on Windu's PHYSICAL state. Windu will have difficulty as Vader's Mental rage state is not as neccisary to his fighting as Windu's Physical state is for him, Vader relies more on his physical then his mental. Further more Vader has a better foundation of defense and is expending overall less energy. The battle will be long and drawn out no matter how you go, but Windu will exhaust faster because Vaapad is just that much more energy demanding.

Edited January 29, 2015 by tunewalker

[Ghisallo]

U are missing the core point about Vaapad... It is a state of mind not a physical style. As such you can use it with any style. Mace initially developed it along side his preferred style but he was a master of all 7 as illustrated in the Canon movies and Cartoons.

 

Also as I said I think you are massively misinterpreting the description of Djem So. I know its not Canon but for the sake of argument let us read and deconstruct....

 

Immediately after defending against an opponent's strike, a Djem So stylist followed with an attack of their own, bringing the force of the opponent's own blow against them and seeking to dominate the duel. Djem So placed a heavy focus on brute strength and pure power, with wide, powerful strikes and parries followed immediately by a counterattack.

 

Unlike Soresu or Ataru, Djem So required the user not only to counterattack, but also to press the assault, combining Force-enhanced strength with powerful blade combinations to overpower and overwhelm an opponent's defenses. Djem So's sheer power, when combined with physical and Force-imbued strength, was capable of defeating a user of Makashi, a lightsaber form focused on dueling, finesse, and elegance, when employed by a skilled practitioner.

 

Well first again if we use new Canon....sidious > duelest than Vader...Mace (per new new Canon) is > duelest (only as a duelest mind you than Sidious). Thus Mace>Vader.

 

If we are going to use all the non-Canon stuff you are...

 

If we read the description in full context it is pretty clear AND reflected by Mace's own use of Djem So in the fight against Sidious. Watch the window break scene. Mace doesn't simply stop Sidious' attacks the way he did in the beginning when he was using Soresu. He instead uses his blade to direct the force of those attacks into a wide arch away from the center, thus creating an opening where one could engage in a direct counterattack. This is using the enemies strength and power against them, just not in the way that u are inferring. After that opening is created you attack with your OWN force enhanced strength and speed (per the description of the art).

 

As a master of all 7 forms Mace can attack however he wants, using Vaapad to fuel himself from Vader's passions. He can simply defend using Soresu and wait for Vader to exhaust himself or make a mistake. He can use form II to be quick and precise...he can go Djem So vs Djem So...all the while using Vaapad to maintain and strengthen himself against Vader's passions.

 

Now against a light side fighter Mace may not be as impressive. He was a swordmaster of the order but others were like better. However against someone drawing their strength from the dark side, even if the skill was not precisely equal the power from Vaapad would make him basically unbeatable. Again a Anakin himself described Mace and his use of Vaapad as "an oblate sphere of purple fire which contained dozens of blades attacking from every angle". It is in essence the ultimate trump card to the dark side swordsman. However in the end Mace was the only person who could master this form and NOT go to the darkside...so once killed this trump card died with him.

 

It is likely why, for story purposes, he was the only one to master it. If all the Jedi did it would be a very bad thing for a story.

[tunewalker]

U are missing the core point about Vaapad... It is a state of mind not a physical style. As such you can use it with any style. Mace initially developed it along side his preferred style but he was a master of all 7 as illustrated in the Canon movies and Cartoons.

 

Also as I said I think you are massively misinterpreting the description of Djem So. I know its not Canon but for the sake of argument let us read and deconstruct....

 

 

 

Well first again if we use new Canon....sidious > duelest than Vader...Mace (per new new Canon) is > duelest (only as a duelest mind you than Sidious). Thus Mace>Vader.

 

If we are going to use all the non-Canon stuff you are...

 

If we read the description in full context it is pretty clear AND reflected by Mace's own use of Djem So in the fight against Sidious. Watch the window break scene. Mace doesn't simply stop Sidious' attacks the way he did in the beginning when he was using Soresu. He instead uses his blade to direct the force of those attacks into a wide arch away from the center, thus creating an opening where one could engage in a direct counterattack. This is using the enemies strength and power against them, just not in the way that u are inferring. After that opening is created you attack with your OWN force enhanced strength and speed (per the description of the art).

 

As a master of all 7 forms Mace can attack however he wants, using Vaapad to fuel himself from Vader's passions. He can simply defend using Soresu and wait for Vader to exhaust himself or make a mistake. He can use form II to be quick and precise...he can go Djem So vs Djem So...all the while using Vaapad to maintain and strengthen himself against Vader's passions.

 

Now against a light side fighter Mace may not be as impressive. He was a swordmaster of the order but others were like better. However against someone drawing their strength from the dark side, even if the skill was not precisely equal the power from Vaapad would make him basically unbeatable. Again a Anakin himself described Mace and his use of Vaapad as "an oblate sphere of purple fire which contained dozens of blades attacking from every angle". It is in essence the ultimate trump card to the dark side swordsman. However in the end Mace was the only person who could master this form and NOT go to the darkside...so once killed this trump card died with him.

 

It is likely why, for story purposes, he was the only one to master it. If all the Jedi did it would be a very bad thing for a story.

 

There was at least 1 other master of Vaapad... Depa, who Windu Trained. Also you are misinterpreting Vaapad. it is BOTH a state of mind and a Physical Form. The "Oblate sphere of purple fire which contained dozens of blades attacking from every angle" is telling of that. Its litterally talking about the wild form I was talking about. Its 2 parts, 1 part mental 1 part physical. Windu NEVER USED Djem So against Sidious, He NEVER USED SORESU against Sidious, he used ONLY Vaapad, both the physical AND the mental portion. That's the part you are missing, you are thinking Windu used something other then Vaapad, he didnt, you are thinking Vaapad is ONLY mental, it is not, it is both, there were several people Windu claimed to have mastered the physical tenants but not the mental, but of course there were a couple that mastered both, like Windu himself.

 

I also think you are making to quick an assumption on duelists.

 

 

Yoda > Windu as a duelist

 

Windu= Dooku as a duelist

 

as a Duelist Vader > Anakin > Dooku....

 

but as you see this doesnt exactly work. This is why I was talking about styles. Windu is NOT a better duelist then Sidious... at least not purely, his style (Vaapad) is just a VERY HARD counter to Sidious own perfered Juyo Form. Juyo is about giving one's self over to passion and fury and letting them dictate he duel. Vaapad is about accepting the opponents fury and using that against them. Djem So's basic tenant is to take the tenants of Shien and apply them to Saber duels. Its "peace through superior firepower" or for Sith its just "superior firepower" the idea being to take your opponents blows causing them to unbalance counter strike in the same momentum and then keep them there. The Fury and Passion portion that Vaapad draws on is NOT as strong here.

 

Windu FOUGHT Dooku, another dark sider, and would come much closer to stale mating him, (as far as I know) because unlike Sidious Dooku DOESNT use Juyo, he uses Makashi, which is very Controlled. Djem So has also been described as Soresu with a Makashi mentality, and with Vader's heavy integration of Makashi elements in his Djem So and the way he uses Dun Moch tactics he is perfectly positioned to DENY Windu that fury to feed off of, just as Dooku did, whilst still pummeling him with cybernetically enhanced power strikes.

 

 

Edit: I LOVE this conversation. Its about Saber STYLES and how they work rather then "power levels" I like that we are talking about characters and their applications more so then we are taking a grading scale and going...well this guy is higher on the "power meter" so he is better.

 

I DO believe we are going to get an impass though as we both have different beliefs on how each of the forms work. How Vaapad is (I think you assume it is pure mental, while from all I have read it is both mental and physical) and how Dark Sider's applications of Saber forms work (I am pretty sure you believe they all use pure passion, which they do... to a degree, while I am more of the mind that it depends more on the user, some one like Vader and Dooku for example I feel draw FAR less on that making it MUCH harder on any Vaapad user.) Ultimately though we could go back and forth on that portion with out really convincing the other one way or another honestly. We just have different interpretations of the material given.

Edited January 29, 2015 by tunewalker

[MorgothPl]

Without Anakin turning the Sith would have survived. Dooku was still out there and he had his own acolyets (according to the Clone Wars cartoon and this is VERY important as I will describe below.)

 

Didn't Dooku died at beginning of e3? He is sacrificed by Sidings, so Anakin gets lots of DS points and be more unstable.

[Ghisallo]

Didn't Dooku died at beginning of e3? He is sacrificed by Sidings, so Anakin gets lots of DS points and be more unstable.

 

Admitted sometime ago I got confused on sequence of events.

[Ghisallo]

There was at least 1 other master of Vaapad... Depa, who Windu Trained. Also you are misinterpreting Vaapad. it is BOTH a state of mind and a Physical Form. The "Oblate sphere of purple fire which contained dozens of blades attacking from every angle" is telling of that. Its litterally talking about the wild form I was talking about. Its 2 parts, 1 part mental 1 part physical. Windu NEVER USED Djem So against Sidious, He NEVER USED SORESU against Sidious, he used ONLY Vaapad, both the physical AND the mental portion. That's the part you are missing, you are thinking Windu used something other then Vaapad, he didnt, you are thinking Vaapad is ONLY mental, it is not, it is both, there were several people Windu claimed to have mastered the physical tenants but not the mental, but of course there were a couple that mastered both, like Windu himself.

 

I also think you are making to quick an assumption on duelists.

 

 

Yoda > Windu as a duelist

 

Windu= Dooku as a duelist

 

as a Duelist Vader > Anakin > Dooku....

 

but as you see this doesnt exactly work. This is why I was talking about styles. Windu is NOT a better duelist then Sidious... at least not purely, his style (Vaapad) is just a VERY HARD counter to Sidious own perfered Juyo Form. Juyo is about giving one's self over to passion and fury and letting them dictate he duel. Vaapad is about accepting the opponents fury and using that against them. Djem So's basic tenant is to take the tenants of Shien and apply them to Saber duels. Its "peace through superior firepower" or for Sith its just "superior firepower" the idea being to take your opponents blows causing them to unbalance counter strike in the same momentum and then keep them there. The Fury and Passion portion that Vaapad draws on is NOT as strong here.

 

Windu FOUGHT Dooku, another dark sider, and would come much closer to stale mating him, (as far as I know) because unlike Sidious Dooku DOESNT use Juyo, he uses Makashi, which is very Controlled. Djem So has also been described as Soresu with a Makashi mentality, and with Vader's heavy integration of Makashi elements in his Djem So and the way he uses Dun Moch tactics he is perfectly positioned to DENY Windu that fury to feed off of, just as Dooku did, whilst still pummeling him with cybernetically enhanced power strikes.

 

 

Edit: I LOVE this conversation. Its about Saber STYLES and how they work rather then "power levels" I like that we are talking about characters and their applications more so then we are taking a grading scale and going...well this guy is higher on the "power meter" so he is better.

 

I DO believe we are going to get an impass though as we both have different beliefs on how each of the forms work. How Vaapad is (I think you assume it is pure mental, while from all I have read it is both mental and physical) and how Dark Sider's applications of Saber forms work (I am pretty sure you believe they all use pure passion, which they do... to a degree, while I am more of the mind that it depends more on the user, some one like Vader and Dooku for example I feel draw FAR less on that making it MUCH harder on any Vaapad user.) Ultimately though we could go back and forth on that portion with out really convincing the other one way or another honestly. We just have different interpretations of the material given.

 

The problem is if you watch the fight Sidious seems to prefer Atarubas he jumps, pops and pings all over the place.

 

In the end I think our impasse comes from the fact I am willing to let everything we know as canon before go away and ONLY take the screen plays and cartoons into account...the "new canon" and that is what I base my analysis on. Without Disney's pronouncement I would say "too close to call" or "inconclusive data". However with Disney's pronouncement, when we look at everything...Mace Windu would have arguably made an AWESOME Sith. He is the CONSUMMATE warrior. I would say Vader (from old Canon) is more balanced but Mace is THE sword, fist and foot warrior. That is actually imo why he developed Vaapad...to focused that nature in a way that would facilitate him NOT going dark. The problem was, as the consummate warrior and NOT teacher (alla Yoda) he could not properly communicate the rationalization for Vaapad. As for my thought on Vaapad being a state of mind vs a hard and fast style...it is directly from old canon....I didn't pull it out of my ***.

 

I also...admittedly dismiss the Dooku fight for one main reason. Dooku's primary style is about control and precision. When he fought with the saber her purposefully kept his passions in check because passion would destroy the almost analytical nature of that style. As such Vaapad has little to feed upon. Vader on the other hand relies on the styles that require strength and passion. Ergo he would feed energy to Mace. If Vader could emulate Dooku I would agree...but he can not.

[tunewalker]

The problem is if you watch the fight Sidious seems to prefer Atarubas he jumps, pops and pings all over the place.

 

In the end I think our impasse comes from the fact I am willing to let everything we know as canon before go away and ONLY take the screen plays and cartoons into account...the "new canon" and that is what I base my analysis on. Without Disney's pronouncement I would say "too close to call" or "inconclusive data". However with Disney's pronouncement, when we look at everything...Mace Windu would have arguably made an AWESOME Sith. He is the CONSUMMATE warrior. I would say Vader (from old Canon) is more balanced but Mace is THE sword, fist and foot warrior. That is actually imo why he developed Vaapad...to focused that nature in a way that would facilitate him NOT going dark. The problem was, as the consummate warrior and NOT teacher (alla Yoda) he could not properly communicate the rationalization for Vaapad. As for my thought on Vaapad being a state of mind vs a hard and fast style...it is directly from old canon....I didn't pull it out of my ***.

 

I also...admittedly dismiss the Dooku fight for one main reason. Dooku's primary style is about control and precision. When he fought with the saber her purposefully kept his passions in check because passion would destroy the almost analytical nature of that style. As such Vaapad has little to feed upon. Vader on the other hand relies on the styles that require strength and passion. Ergo he would feed energy to Mace. If Vader could emulate Dooku I would agree...but he can not.

 

Even in New cannon, The screen plays do not have Windu using anything but Vaapad in that fight, or Sidious using anything but Juyo. Every move they make is Juyo and Vaapad, there is no ataru, there is no Soresu, there is no Djem So, there is nothing that you are thinking you are seeing. But you are not trained in the Jedi arts. and those 2 forms are supposed to look confusing to those not trained in the jedi arts. There is acrobatics in Juyo, its just not as connected. You are seeing stuff that isnt there.

 

Vader utilizes Makashi in his form. He uses strength NOT passion. Even when the fight coreographor analyzed Vader's style from the first movies he is the ONLY person listed as using multiple forms through out his fight. Not Windu, Not Sidious, Vader.

 

Even using the "new cannon" everything that I have told you is still 100% there. Vaapad is still both Mental AND Physical. Sidous and Windu both STILL only used Juyo and Vaapad in their fight. Vader STILL utilizes Djem So in the manner I described. "New" or "Old" nothing changed in regards to these 2 character's fighting style.

 

It is funny how you are just saying "using the cartoons and movies" and calling Windu a "sword fist and foot warrior" when Windu if I recall kicks all of once in his fights in those movies AND cartoons. Maul would be a much more accurate to call fist and foot with sword in this case, Windu wouldnt make much sense to be called that with the missing "old cannon" stuff.

 

 

In short, I am not using or talking about "old cannon" I can use it sure, but its not needed. In "new cannon" Sidious vs Windu was Juyo vs Vaapad. nothing else. Vaapad was BOTH a Mental, AND a physical style.. always and forever.

 

Vader STILL utilized portions of all 7 forms with Djem So and the fluid Riposte as the back bone of his style. He still used Dun Moch tactics and he still sought to dominate the duel through shear physical strength along wit h precise wrist control. He shows LESS rage and Fury and the like in the screen plays then he does in the "old Cannon" instead being calculating and powerful.

 

Windu does NOT have what he needs to feed off of. The weaknesses of his style still exist "new cannon" or "old Cannon". Vader's application of Djem So is still the same way I described it "new cannon" or "old cannon". This has nothing to do with New vs Old cannon. So if that is your argument please go back to the drawing board and actually take my points into consideration rather then ignoring them and talking about Windu using styles that he never did in the movies or cartoon, or talking about Vader's "rage enduced" fighting style.. when in the movies and screen plays he was the Opposite of "rage enduced" he was cold and calculating.

Edited January 29, 2015 by tunewalker