MarcheseAMM Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) yas bae Edited January 21, 2015 by MarcheseAMM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 yas bae Honestly Marchese, you come up with some very interesting match ups. I am not entirely sure here, but as most know I do lean vader on this one, but by no for sure thing. Windu's Vaapad could potentially feed off Vader, but its unsure. I do know this would be a pure saber duel though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashbrewster Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Darth Vader was the most powerful force user ever. Obvs him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrr_hypernova Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Vader wasn't the strongest ever he had the potential to be the strongest. Haveing your body cut up weakens your force connection. But I'd still say vader after all he did effortlessly disarm windu. Pun intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcaleb Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 i assume that by Darth Vader you mean the guy in life support armor instead of the pre-suit version? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 If they went lightsaber duel mace Wins. Vaapad would basically have Vader's hate working against him. Add to the fact that Windu has Shatterpoint and yeah. Vader would basically have to keep it a TK/Forcelightning fight in order to win IMO. Don't forget if Anakin hadn't interfered, Windu would have beat Sidious...but only because Sidious let Mace get into Saber range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brahnan_ Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Is this a joke? Windu beat the Emperor handily and Vader got handed by Obi Wan. Mace would have thrashed Vader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcaleb Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 If they went lightsaber duel mace Wins. Vaapad would basically have Vader's hate working against him. Add to the fact that Windu has Shatterpoint and yeah. Vader would basically have to keep it a TK/Forcelightning fight in order to win IMO. Don't forget if Anakin hadn't interfered, Windu would have beat Sidious...but only because Sidious let Mace get into Saber range. He might have beaten him in a saber duel but Palpatine would have eventually gotten through with the force lightning even if Anakin hadn't showed up, apparently going by the novel he was close to blasting it out of his hands with the force of his lightning. And then once Anakin distracted him he revealed he hadn't even been using his full power and pumped up the amount of juice he was pouring into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaulderBenson Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) He might have beaten him in a saber duel but Palpatine would have eventually gotten through with the force lightning even if Anakin hadn't showed up, apparently going by the novel he was close to blasting it out of his hands with the force of his lightning. And then once Anakin distracted him he revealed he hadn't even been using his full power and pumped up the amount of juice he was pouring into it. Pretty much. Windu was dead the minute he went to Palpatine's office without Anakin according to the prophecy: In the time of greatest despair, a child shall be born who will destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force Windu probably legitimately disarmed Sidious, but he would have been killed when Sidious starting using the Force. No matter how you interpret the fight, Windu was never leaving that office alive. Edited January 22, 2015 by CaulderBenson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) Pretty much. Windu was dead the minute he went to Palpatine's office without Anakin according to the prophecy: Windu probably legitimately disarmed Sidious, but he would have been killed when Sidious starting using the Force. No matter how you interpret the fight, Windu was never leaving that office alive. This though has NOTHING to do with the topic at Hand. Even if Windu was weaker than Sidious, it took Sidious doing what I said... using force lightning to win. He never would have won in a straight up lightsaber duel all Vader and Kenobi. In a lightsaber duel, Vaapad is the great equalizer when it comes to fighting Sith. and with how much closer Vader and Windu are in terms of Force abilities... Vaapad = Windu win over Vader. That said..... You miss the point of the prophecy, but so did the Jedi. Anakin, to fulfill the prophecy, HAD to save Sidious, go to the Darkside, to later kill Sidious to save Luke. You are right, Windu was dead the minute he entered that office, BECAUSE Anakin was destined to save Sidious by killing Windu. Without Anakin turning the Sith would have survived. Dooku was still out there and he had his own acolyets (according to the Clone Wars cartoon and this is VERY important as I will describe below.) So Anakin doesn't show, Sidious dies, Dooku goes on with his people, maybe into hiding if/when the war turns against him. The cycle continues. So Sidious must live that day and become the Emperor or else balance does not come. He must become supremely over confident in himself, the power of the Darkside and of his new and improved battle station. In this way, due to the rule of two and how Anakin would slay Sidious, Master and apprentice both perish. Balance is restored. The whole reason the Jedi could not wipe out the Sith until this point was of course ecause they simply could not find them. They needed to be out fully in the open with no path of retreat because running away to hide and fight another day is something the Sith excel at. Remove the prophesy, and thus Anakin, from the equation. Windu give Sidious a beat down. ESPECIALLY since the only Canon now is the screenplays, The Clone Wars Cartoon and now Star Wars Rebels. When talking about Canon characters, in this way, we can only use these sources. G-Canon. So with that in mind... yeah... in a light saber duel mace wins. I know I know... Disney doing that screwed things up and it sucks. before April 2014 I would agree. After 2014 the tables turned however. Edited January 22, 2015 by Ghisallo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 What are you talking about? Dooku was dead, Sidious was the last Sith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevalon Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Maybe Im crazy, but I thought it was pretty obvious that, in the movie (The only canon thing anymore) that Sidious let Windu beat him. Sure it was a risk on Sidious part, but he knew the prophecy and he knew Anakin would turn and help him, but yea, I sure seemed pretty obvious that Sidious purposefully let Windu beat him. He needed to be hurt to prove to the Senate that the Jedi attacked him and he needed Anakin to willfully give himself to the dark side, by letting WIndu beat him he accomplished both. If he fought Windu as hard as he fought Yoda, Windu woulda lost pretty badly imo - Heck, once Sid finally DID unleash his full power he dang near destroyed the guy in half a second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaulderBenson Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) This though has NOTHING to do with the topic at Hand. Even if Windu was weaker than Sidious, it took Sidious doing what I said... using force lightning to win. He never would have won in a straight up lightsaber duel all Vader and Kenobi. In a lightsaber duel, Vaapad is the great equalizer when it comes to fighting Sith. and with how much closer Vader and Windu are in terms of Force abilities... Vaapad = Windu win over Vader. I didn't comment on Vader vs Mace. I don't care to have that conversation. You miss the point of the prophecy, but so did the Jedi. Anakin, to fulfill the prophecy, HAD to save Sidious, go to the Darkside, to later kill Sidious to save Luke. The prophecy doesn't go into specifics. You're assuming Anakin turning to the darkside was part of the prophecy. He did turn however, so that's irrelevant. You are right, Windu was dead the minute he entered that office, BECAUSE Anakin was destined to save Sidious by killing Windu. Without Anakin turning the Sith would have survived. Dooku was still out there and he had his own acolyets (according to the Clone Wars cartoon and this is VERY important as I will describe below.) Dooku was dead. Sidious was the only sith in the galaxy, hence my point that Windu was dead the minute he entered that office without Anakin according to the prophecy that only the chosen one could defeat the Sith; which refers only to Sidious at that point since he was the galaxy's lone sith. Edited January 22, 2015 by CaulderBenson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 My bad...got the order of the events confused regarding Dooku...I saw each movie only once so as to preserve my sanity. However even in the movie scene I do not see Sidious "letting" Mace win the LIGHTSABER duel. Palpatine is considered by many to be the greatest of the Sith Swordmaster but, thanks to Vaapad, Windu can turn that against him. Kinda like the Aikido against the darkside, turning its own strength against him. If Sidious was letting him win anything it was in not completely frying him with force lightening so Anakin takes his last step to the dark side, but he had no way of knowing Anakin was showing up during the duel. So again, on the topic, Mace wins against Vader with blades...with The force I would argue as well but am willing to say it goes either way. As for the prophesy...even Yoda said the prophesy may have been misunderstood. They are of course vague. The thing about true prophesies though is that to be a prophesy, by definition, they can't happen any other way. That is true of all prophesy in fiction and myth. The hero says "look at what just happened? This can't be the prophesy.". It is though, you just have to understand the nature of the hero's journey (Campbell's hero of 1000 faces is a GREAT source for that.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) My bad...got the order of the events confused regarding Dooku...I saw each movie only once so as to preserve my sanity. However even in the movie scene I do not see Sidious "letting" Mace win the LIGHTSABER duel. Palpatine is considered by many to be the greatest of the Sith Swordmaster but, thanks to Vaapad, Windu can turn that against him. Kinda like the Aikido against the darkside, turning its own strength against him. If Sidious was letting him win anything it was in not completely frying him with force lightening so Anakin takes his last step to the dark side, but he had no way of knowing Anakin was showing up during the duel. So again, on the topic, Mace wins against Vader with blades...with The force I would argue as well but am willing to say it goes either way. As for the prophesy...even Yoda said the prophesy may have been misunderstood. They are of course vague. The thing about true prophesies though is that to be a prophesy, by definition, they can't happen any other way. That is true of all prophesy in fiction and myth. The hero says "look at what just happened? This can't be the prophesy.". It is though, you just have to understand the nature of the hero's journey (Campbell's hero of 1000 faces is a GREAT source for that.) I think you are making to much of an assumption that "sidious's style" that Windu could pull on = Vader's style thus Windu can pull on it. Djem So is much closer to your example of Aikido since it focuses on turning the opponents attack against them. Windu's style is about turning the opponents AGGRESSION against them. While Vader is aggressive its no where near as aggressive as Sidious who uses the most aggressive form Juyo. Vader's hybrid style I believe would be much more difficult for Vaapad to take advantage of. And the level of tactical planning Vader does in his saber duels I think could very much be an advantage. Edited January 22, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) I think you are making to much of an assumption that "sidious's style" that Windu could pull on = Vader's style thus Windu can pull on it. Djem So is much closer to your example of Aikido since it focuses on turning the opponents attack against them. Windu's style is about turning the opponents AGGRESSION against them. While Vader is aggressive its no where near as aggressive as Sidious who uses the most aggressive form Juyo. Vader's hybrid style I believe would be much more difficult for Vaapad to take advantage of. And the level of tactical planning Vader does in his saber duels I think could very much be an advantage. Don't forget the strength of a Jedi flows from the force. If it is darkside then it is aggression, hatred, fear etc. Vaapad turns the Sith's strength against him. Also the way this aspect works Vaapad was explained as being a state of mind rather than just a fighting style, allowing the wielder to channel his own inner darkness into the duel, and accept the fury of the opponent. . It has also been described as taking the fury of the opponent and creating a feedback loop that endlessly cycles. This is a lot more like Aikido than Diem So is described (philosophically speaking of course.). Djem So placed a heavy focus on brute strength and pure power, with wide, powerful strikes and parries followed immediately by a counterattack. I studied Aikido for almost a decade and still practice almost daily over 20 years after I started. Really no lightsaber style is close, much to my disappointment tbh. I remember my Sensi describing it to me for the first time "...you are never so rude as to get in the way of your opponents strike. Instead, be graceful, step out of his path and assist him happily on his way." I loved that guy, he was pretty witty. Windu and Sidious are actually a masters of all 7 forms...Vaapad is simply a variation of form 7 which Windu created and has taught to VERY few. To an extent it is also very much like form 6. You master form 3 and the learn form 6 like Obi Wan did so he can include force attacks as he fights. In this case develop and master Vaapad so as you dance through all forms as needed you turn your enemies strength against them. Sidious is also a master of all 7 forms and the greatest of the Sith swordmasters, even better than Vader when in his prime. From everything I have read in terms of overall mastery, in general, it is Yoda=Mace=Sidious>everyone else. Yes there are others who are "among the greatest" but these are the guys who get called "the greatest." Just my opinion though. Edited January 23, 2015 by Ghisallo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaulderBenson Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) My bad...got the order of the events confused regarding Dooku...I saw each movie only once so as to preserve my sanity. All good. However even in the movie scene I do not see Sidious "letting" Mace win the LIGHTSABER duel. I agree. It doesn't seem like he intentionally let Mace get the better of him in the film. Mace appears to have disarmed him legitimately, which is fine. Sidious would have just killed him with the force since he's much more powerful than Mace and according to the prophecy only Anakin could destroy the sith (Sidious at this point.) Mace was dead when he went up against Sidious. The details don't matter to me, only the end result in this case. but he (Sidious) had no way of knowing Anakin was showing up during the duel. In the novelization Sidious could sense Anakin through the Force and knew he would come. In the movie it's heavily implied with the Sidious' voice over when Anakin is in the temple council chambers that he knows Anakin was coming back. And with that I'm out. This was fun, thanks very much, and have a nice night. Edited January 23, 2015 by CaulderBenson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Don't forget the strength of a Jedi flows from the force. If it is darkside then it is aggression, hatred, fear etc. Vaapad turns the Sith's strength against him. Also the way this aspect works . It has also been described as taking the fury of the opponent and creating a feedback loop that endlessly cycles. This is a lot more like Aikido than Diem So is described (philosophically speaking of course.). I studied Aikido for almost a decade and still practice almost daily over 20 years after I started. Really no lightsaber style is close, much to my disappointment tbh. I remember my Sensi describing it to me for the first time "...you are never so rude as to get in the way of your opponents strike. Instead, be graceful, step out of his path and assist him happily on his way." I loved that guy, he was pretty witty. Windu is actually a master of all 7 forms...Vaapad is simply a variation of form 7. To an extent it is also very much like form 6. You master form 3 and the learn form 6 like Obi Wan did so he can include force attacks as he fights. In this case develop and master Vaapad so as you dance through all forms as needed you turn your enemies strength against them. Sidious is also a master of all 7 forms and the greatest of the Sith swordmasters, even better than Vader when in his prime. From everything I have read in terms of overall mastery, in general, it is Yoda=Mace=Sidious>everyone else. Yes there are others who are "among the greatest" but these are the guys who get called "the greatest." Just my opinion though. I can prove that Sidious real power doesn't come from his lightsaber combat without even drawing on the novels. Sidious engages yoda in a lightsaber duel. Sidious begins to lose. Sidious loses his lightsaber. Sidious begins to use the force. He disarms Yoda and proceeds to get the upper hand. Ergo, Sidious is superior fighting with the force than with a lightsaber. He tells Anakin he is helpless, weak, and has no strength but the moment Windu loses his arms "UNLIMITED POWER!!!" proving that he's lying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) You are absolutely correct. Thing is we are looking at the only two Jedi that are >/= Sidious with the blade, Yoda likely the only one who possibly equals him with both. My only point, and I wish I hadn't try to make it as it is causing a derail, is that if Sidious > Vader with a saber and Windu >/= Sidious...then Windu>Vader with a Saber. That is why I said Vader might have a chance but only if he did not allow himself to get trapped into a toe 2 toe lightsaber duel. Edited January 23, 2015 by Ghisallo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 You are absolutely correct. Thing is we are looking at the only two Jedi that are >/= Sidious with the blade, Yoda likely the only one who possibly equals him with both. My only point, and I wish I hadn't try to make it as it is causing a derail, is that if Sidious > Vader with a saber and Windu >/= Sidious...then Windu>Vader with a Saber. That is why I said Vader might have a chance but only if he did not allow himself to get trapped into a toe 2 toe lightsaber duel. Its not so clear that Sidious is greater then Vader with a blade. With the force yes.. a blade, not entirely clear on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Its not so clear that Sidious is greater then Vader with a blade. With the force yes.. a blade, not entirely clear on that one. Just going based on everything I have read. When you read the side books (that is what I call the books that read more like history books and encylopedias) they refer to Sidious as the greatest of the Sith swordsmasters. In essence Sidious was THE ultimate Sith. The actual Novels leave certain things up in the air for sure, it's those side books I find most interesting though. Probably comes for originally getting a degree in history, I am used to reading and writing in that kind of style Edited January 23, 2015 by Ghisallo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSStember Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 If they went lightsaber duel mace Wins. Vaapad would basically have Vader's hate working against him. Add to the fact that Windu has Shatterpoint and yeah. Vader would basically have to keep it a TK/Forcelightning fight in order to win IMO. Don't forget if Anakin hadn't interfered, Windu would have beat Sidious...but only because Sidious let Mace get into Saber range. Unless you accept the fact that Sidious was the great manipulator who had planned *all* this to unfold as it did to ensure him the Emperorship with Vader as his right hand man. Sidious know Anakin was *this close* to breaking, and he needed a final push...the fear of losing his "mentor" Palpatine and thus his chance to keep Padme' from dying in childbirth. Mace beat Sidious? No, I firmly believe Sidious let Mace beat him into that position as he felt Anakin getting closer to the point he needed to give Anakin's fragile psyche that final "nudge" to the Dark Side. After all....he goes from being so weak "I can't hold on"....to suddenly laughing and screaming "Unlimited power!" the moment he sees his ploy worked and Anakin took that final step to the Dark Side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 (edited) Your last point has nothing to do with mine. I have no doubt that when swapping to force attacks Sidious wins. If anything getting into a lightsaber fight with Windu was a mistake. I would never say Mace absolutely positively would have still won the fight. I simply say without Anakin's presence it is a possibility. In coming to this decision I keep in mind that after April 2014 when address canon characters, the only canon is 6 screen plays and 2 cartoon series. Nothing else. Not novelizations, comics, anything but they sources before April 2014 does NOT exist in Canon. So from the screenplay we see Mace beat a fighting hard Sidious with the light saber. We then see Sidious, possibly playing possum when he now disarmed and using force lightning to fry Mace. The later does not make the former go away. When you look at the feats Mace does in the Clone Wars cartoon (also canon per Disney) as a Warrior he is scary. He can literally destroy battle droids by punching them to pieces bare handed, an army of them... He is, in essence, the warrior born. The problem is the warrior born can be killed by the Master Sorcer's lightning bolt...and this is what happened... So in short I see Windu winning the lightsaber fight but losing the battle. I say possibly playing possum BTW because clearly a test of force abilities is going on. So Sidious could be struggling but once Anakin eliminates the resistance he has something to struggle against.I just think that part of the fight could go either waway debate wise based on what is now canon. Edited January 24, 2015 by Ghisallo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emeraldon Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 He might have beaten him in a saber duel but Palpatine would have eventually gotten through with the force lightning even if Anakin hadn't showed up, apparently going by the novel he was close to blasting it out of his hands with the force of his lightning. And then once Anakin distracted him he revealed he hadn't even been using his full power and pumped up the amount of juice he was pouring into it. What makes you say that? Windu was reflecting all of the lightning. Had Sidious kept going he would've fried himself completely. If Anakin didn't interfere, Windu would've struck him down then and there. Also - Vader can't use force lightning. In a 1v1 Windu would've decimated him both because Windu draws upon the Hatred from Vader, and the fact that Windu is so much faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emeraldon Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 So from the screenplay we see Mace beat a fighting hard Sidious with the light saber. We then see Sidious, possibly playing possum when he now disarmed and using force lightning to fry Mace. So in short I see Windu winning the lightsaber fight but losing the battle. Windu didn't get fried. He didn't lose the battle vs Sidious' lightning before he lost his arm and was thrown the hell out of the window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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