Annihilation | Watchman Specific Feedback

[TACeMossie]

Crazy Idea:

 

Watchman/Annihilation turned into 7.5 second rotation:

 

7.5 second cooldown on Merciless/Annihilate @ max stacks

7 second Cauterize/Rupture duration, damage ticks every second, proc for cooldown reset (cooldown normally 15 seconds)

15 second duration on Melt/Rend

15 second cooldown for Leap/Charge, focus generation increased by 1

3 second cooldown reduction on Ravage/Master Strike as well as TST obtained through talents.

 

End result:

 

Merciless -> Cauterize -> Master Strike -> Zealous Strike ->

Merciless -> Cauterize -> DST -> Force Melt -> Force Charge ->

 

Repeat

 

Or course... then there's the issue of no GCDs for dispatch or slash...

Edited January 23, 2015 by TACeMossie

[MorgenBlue]

I'm not really sure what that sorts out. Sure it brings the Rupture proc back but that's about it. I know thats not helpful but yeah :\ Edited January 23, 2015 by MorgenBlue

[Sapperlot]

I tend to agree with this although I wasn't wild about any of your suggested changes to it. To start, I really like that Force Rend | Force Melt is a non-melee, directly applied, hard hitting DoT. I don't like its cost, the 3s between ticks nor its 18s duration.

. Anyway, the point being we have too many abilities to use and not enough GCDs available given a 6s DoT for Rupture | Cauterize.

That are exact the reasons why i made my suggestions, specifically variation No.2.

We will get an 6s instead a 18s dot and bring it off the GCD brings some free GDC for rupture. The Spec will speed up a litte bit.

It was only an attemp for an solution, I must confess that the timings aren´t "thought to the end".

But i absolutly agree with your point that we have to many abilities to use in to short time. If i count right we are current (with Berserk, Smash and Sweeping Slash) at 14 different abilities only to do our job....Damage.

One one Hand i like the variaty with that, on the other hand this seems to me that this is one reason for the long rotation.

That brings me again back to the dotspread with DST and force rend. Smash and force rend are 2 abilities that we didn´t use before. (Same for sweeping Slash, but i won´t count that) Dot Spread with DST removes smash again and Force rend...i have no better ideas what do do with that.

[oofalong]

...At this point the Devs have had two attempts to try and redesign Anni without the RNG, one of which was a total overhaul. Both attempts failed and it just needs to be accepted that the way Anni should be, because it works and it is fun.

 

BioWare has been systematically removing RNG-based procs from rotations for sometime*. I have heard this is to better balance for PvP. Thus, if the only ideas to improve this spec center on re-introducing RNG-based procs I don't think anything will change. Maybe my assumption is wrong here, but let's pretend for a moment that I am right. What do we do to change the way the discipline plays that doesn't involve rotational procs? Is there really nothing? I feel like there has to be an middle ground or some creative solution.

 

 

* The only rotational proc I am aware of is Lethal Takedown's | Dirty Shot's affect Cull | Wounding Shots for Virulence Snipers | Dirty Fighting, which has an 80% chance to proc Takedown | Quickdraw. I believe Cull | Wounding Shots hits three times so the effective proc rate on this 99.2%. In other words, it is pretty much guaranteed to happen.

 

Many disciplines have procs with built-in internal CDs, which define how the spec is played. This differs from the proposal of a 6s proc reset on Rupture | Cauterize.

 

There are some other procs that can increase the damage or crit rate of an attack, but there aren't rotational per se.

 

 

...and the majority have stopped playing the Class due to all the changes made in 3.0.

 

I am not sure if you meant the changes specific to this class or the overall meta changes, but I think it is worth citing both changes as contributing to the drop in Maras | Sents. As you know the new operations are more punishing for mDPS than rDPS and every rDPS seems more suited than mDPS to deal the damage types needed - and more of it - in the boss encounters.

Edited January 23, 2015 by oofalong

[oofalong]

Widely Accepted Suggested Change #1: Change DoT spreading to Dual Saber Throw | Twin Saber Throw, specifically:

• Change Hemorrhaging Smash | Burning Sweep to "Dual Saber Throw | Twin Saber Throw spreads your Rupture | Cauterize and Force Rend | Force Melt bleeds | Burns to targets it hits, if it hits a target already affected by those bleeds."
  
• Change Pulverize | Mind Sear to "Your bleeding | burning effects have a 20% chance to grant Pulverize | Mind Sear which increased the damage of your next Dual Saber Throw | Twin Saber Throw by 100% and finishes its cooldown. This effect can only occur once every 18s.
  

 

This change better aligns our single target rotation with our DoT spreading ability similar to Serenity | Hatred. Plus, it allows use to utilize Dual Saber Throw | Twin Saber Throw for damaging multiple targets without jeopardizing its place in our single target rotation due to Pulverize | Mind Sear.

Edited January 23, 2015 by oofalong

[Emperor-Norton]

I am not sure if you meant the changes specific to this class or the overall meta changes, but I think it is worth citing both changes as contributing to the drop in Maras | Sents. As you know the new operations are more punishing for mDPS than rDPS and every rDPS seems more suited than mDPS to deal the damage types needed - and more of it - in the boss encounters.

I think the more damming thing was the changes to the rotation. If Marauders were inherently fun but content just sucked, people would still play them. Whether as mains in PvE and finding ways of making the class work or as preferred alts, people would still play the class. The problem is it isn't worth it to do so since the Class is just no fun at all to play. You might as well have more fun playing a Sniper, Sorc, PT or Merc and marvel at how easy life is. If Anni was like it was in 2.10 I would still be raiding, content be damned (it is worth noting I played Watchman when it was inferior to Combat because it was fun). However playing the Class is boring and a shadow of it's former self, so playing something for fun has gone out of the window in favor of chasing what is FOTM.

 

Also expect a PM soon.

 

Edit: It is worth remembering that Melee is typically tricky to work around in fights, but people are usually able to find a way to make it work. I remember when people though Melee on Tyrans was something impossible and you needed Ranged. Until they actually learned to do things right and even doing 4 Melee was no real burden at all. The problem now is like I said before, it isn't worth it to try.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Emperor-Norton

[Ardarell_Solo]

I think the more damming thing was the changes to the rotation. If Marauders were inherently fun but content just sucked, people would still play them. Whether as mains in PvE and finding ways of making the class work or as preferred alts, people would still play the class. The problem is it isn't worth it to do so since the Class is just no fun at all to play. You might as well have more fun playing a Sniper, Sorc, PT or Merc and marvel at how easy life is. If Anni was like it was in 2.10 I would still be raiding, content be damned (it is worth noting I played Watchman when it was inferior to Combat because it was fun). However playing the Class is boring and a shadow of it's former self, so playing something for fun has gone out of the window in favor of chasing what is FOTM.

 

This exactly!

[Stippling]

Because our DPS is not only strong, but exceptional, I'm concerned where that leaves us with regards to the upcoming changes. Short of a grand redesign, there isn't that much to fix in my eyes. I may be in a minority of Annihilation | Watchman players, but am I the only that has reservations regarding dramatic class changes again? I went through the same emotional rollercoaster that most Marauders went through entering 3.0, though I came out the other side not only enjoying the complexities of the rotation, but preferring them to the button-mashing simplicity that pre-3.0 had to offer. New Annihilation | Watchman is significantly more challenging to maintain, and as the only remaining Marauder | Sentinel Discipline with resource management in the rotation, I hope that it is not spoonfed surplus rage again or thrown into the AN -> RU -> Filler -> Filler ad nauseam that was a thing for 3.0 prior to release. In short, making another dramatic shift in the rotation only risks further isolating the marauder playerbase, in particular those who stuck around and were willing to adapt.

 

With that said, I totally agree with the proposed changes to cause Dual/Twin Saber Throw to spread bleeds. Asking an already resource taxed class to spend 3 rage on Smash made AoE'ing pretty challenging.

 

The only glaring issue I see in the single target rotation is execute range, which can be quite the challenge to find a benefit from. I typically only use Vicious Throw | Dispatch as quite literally an execute, or rather one of the last abilities I use on the target. That accounts for one GCD in what can often be a fairly large window of sub-30% uptime (on a dummy, bosses it's a tad bit easier but still challenging).

 

Another idea I had been throwing around was to have Vicious Throw | Dispatch apply a Rupture | Cauterize bleed to the target. While rotationally this would make execute range flow a lot smoother (at virtually the same rage cost with the refund 1), realistically it would exponentially buff overall damage output and would be impractical. If, however, Vicious Throw | Dispatch applied this bleed with a 36 second internal GCD, it would mean every third Rupture would be replaced with a Vicious Throw instead. This would be a marginal increase to overall damage and would make execute range diverge from the standard rotation. The effect, to be most beneficial, would have to APPLY the bleed rather than merely refresh it. A refresh would be annoying and clog up the flow of the class.

 

If we want to get crazy and throw some mundane RNG into the mix, we could have each Assault have a % chance to make the next Vicious Slash/Vicious Throw free.

 

That's all I can really think of at the moment though. If we can get execute range working again, the overall rotation will flow from 100-0 much smoother.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Stippling

[cs_zoltan]

I'd like to try take this comment seriously, but I can't. Its just plain wrong.

 

Scoundrels have to use the most unwieldy attack ever in order to spread Vital Shot and their Shrap Bomb only sometimes actually AoEs like you want it.

 

Gunslingers have similar problems, though slightly more user-friendly, but only in Dirty Fighting spec (because shrap bomb is lame). Saboteur doesn't even have a way to AoE spread their DoTs and in the case of Shock Charge they can't even put it on multiple targets.

 

And the worst class in the game for AoE DoT spread? Vanguards.

 

Tactics doesn't have any DoT spreads (but thats fine, its not a DoT class)

Shield Tech has a DoT spread on High Impact Bolt, but thats a tank spec

and Plasmatech... Well the only way a Plasmatech Vanguard can DoT spread is by killing its current target, and it only spreads 1 of the DoTs to only 1 other target. Ionized Ignition isn't working for the AoE DoT application (different to DoT spread anyway) due to a bug, but even then that would be like saying that Atayru Form (combat spec) is a DoT. And Incendiary Missile doesn't even have any kind of DoT spread in Plasmatech.

 

Of course, this is nitpicking and vanguards are probably the best class for progression in the game (so long as you have a mando providing the ranged debuff + elemental debuff), but if you're gonna make statements, please don't be so horribly wrong. At least with Burning Sweep you can sort-of aim it to actually hit stuff you want.

 

Did you get beat up by some IO Merc on the PTS or something? Because like 70% of time I see you post since 3.0 it's has something to do with them...

Let me tell you why IO has the worst DoT spread:

-They need to use 2 ability for it which takes time and resource, both things IO lacks.

-FM is a 1.5sec cast (vs every other spread which is instant) and doesn't even have 100% pushback protection so if someone is in your face it's pretty damn impossible to get it off.

-ED has a delay before detonation and spreading which means the target could either die or if he has some sense move away from the group.

-Both of them is targeted AoE (again the only one other than CG, even Smash and Carbine Burst can be somewhat aimed)

 

Oh and Pyro don't really need a DoT spread when it's highest dps ability is already AoE.

 

Now back on topic. As a fellow PVP mara I agree with this completely:

Please bare in mind that this is coming from a purely PvP point of view, and I am clueless about high-end PvE

 

I have a few issues with Watchman atm. Force Melt seems to have been designed around the idea that it should be free to use because you can fit 3 Merciless Slashes in between each use of it. This isn't at all practical in PvP. The majority of the time it costs 2-3 focus. In my opinion the spec is unplayable without taking Defiance. Perhaps this is intended but if you consider that Defensive forms is already pretty much mandatory then that only leaves us with 1 Skillful utility choice to make.

 

Then there's the fact that Force Melt is an 18 second long DOT. I would much rather the spec went back in the direction of having shorter dots like pre-3.0. Having a dot that ticks every 3 secs doesn't make much of an impact unless the fight is going to be a long one. I would much rather have a shorter dot that ticks faster. If I remember correctly Cauterise used to be a 6 sec DOT and now it's length has been doubled.

 

The length of the dots wouldn't be so terrible if they actually had some synergy with the spec. It's not like attacking a target with Force Melt on makes another ability hit harder or something. It seems like they've just added another DOT for the sake of it.

 

I have to say I like the idea of making Force Leap usable while rooted/snared. That would add a much needed counter to all the kiting that Watchman is so susceptible to atm.

 

I'm not necessarily in favour of our DOTs going back to having a cd though. Them not having a cd makes it much easier to switch targets in PvP when someone pops a cd that negates our DOTs such as Shroud, Evasion or Force Barrior.

 

Another suggestion I like is moving the DOT spread function from Force Sweep to Dual Saber Throw. Force sweep was never part of the "rotation" for Watchman pre-3.0 and the only reason I had it on my bar at all was for interrupting multiple people capping when I had already used DST. Then there's the fact that it's extremely ineffective at spreading the dots due to the fact that it's a melee ability with only a 5m range. If you compare that to the DOT spread of Hatred (a 30m ability with an 8m range) it's very lackluster.

 

Finally Watchman just seems to have lost it's flow. I know this isn't a very helpful thing to say as everyone knows it and it doesn't offer a solution but it's true none the less. Force Melt just seems completely out of place and very tacked on.

 

I know this isn't the clearest or most well-laid-out post, but hopefully there's at least a small bit of useful info that can be scavenged from it.

 

Edit: Oh and 2% healing should come back. I'm pretty sure this was removed from the spec when it was considered OP. This is far from the case now and I think it would be a small but beneficial boost to survivability.

 

I'd also like to add that Anni is the only 4m DoT spec in the game so they need to get crazy mobility to be anywhere near viable.

Edited January 25, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[oasisX]

D'han Rahl here (yay for subscriber friends to post for me!), thought I'd try to get my thoughts about Annihilation in while we have an active thread agian.

 

I decided to stay faithful to my Marauder (although I dumped my madness sorc for a virulence sniper for another raid), and t here are a few things that I am starting to wish I didn't have to deal with.

 

First DoT Tracking is an annoyance. It's not hard per say, but a lot of these fights require significant movement which makes keeping it up without sacrificing rotation a little bit difficult. I've almost got the rotation down to where I DO NOT need to keep 1.5 eyes on the buff bar (thankfully all my reticles are right near the buff bar which works out well), but having to deal with it is still an annoyance. There is simply too much going on with these current fights that the upkeep is difficult to say the least.

 

I think a rework to Force Rend should not be in the form of another DoT, but instead a hard hitting ability that applies an armour penetration. Our only armour pen skill is granted from Carnage at the moment, and I find myself playing Annihilation over carnage even if carnage might be better simply because gore is just not sufficient in my opinion. Yeah there will be other sources of armour penetration with the raid already, but something about Rending my opponent makes me feel that I should be hitting hard enough to penetrate their armour so that my bleeds are more effective. Another option would for it to be a small DoT like Deadly Saber, but honestly I think it should not be a DoT. I'd like to see it on a moderate CD (Not instant, but short enough that if we need to swap targets to something that requires an armour debuff we can get that on there ), and deal something around out Annihilate/Vicious Throw crit range.

 

Secondly, Rupture just feels pathetic. As a big part of the rotation since forever, it feels like such an underwhelming skill. I really dislike the no CD on it, that really bugs me on a spiritual level. I would really, really like it to return to 2.8 damage (which I think a crit was around 1300 in 186 BiS gear), and just put any kind of CD on it. While I really enjoyed the RNG of 2.8 with it's CD refreshing, I don't think it's necessary anymore with the removal of a majority of RNG in specs. Instead I would like to see something along the lines of using Swift Demise's effect for Rupture instead. I think it's a nice idea, and if we remove the DoT of Rend, we shouldn't have too many energy problems.

 

Thirdly, ICD on resource generation, this needs to be brought back. I really couldn't care less the argument on this, I just want to see this back. It's appauling how many times I see myself going into a ravage and come out 1 rage short of using Annihilate, or just in general having to spam auto-attack like it's my main ability. No thank you.

 

Fourthly, the DoT spread on DST is an amazing idea. I dislike the idea of having to use Smash, in fact I almost feel disgusted with myself for using it even for trash. With DST spreading it, at least we are using an ability that is apart of our core rotation much like Madness or Virulence. I really have never understood the reasoning behind it, as only one spec used Smash, and as of 3.0 Fury/Rage don't use it as often due to it's reduced damage (sweeping slash deals more).

 

Overall the downfall of this spec is too much time concentrating on correctly playing the spec in raids rather than enjoying the raids themselves. I just finally learned the 3 cull rotation for my sniper and am able to execute the rotation properly in these raids without even thinking about it...hell even my madness sorc (hopefully hasn't suffocated from the dust and cobwebs) can play just find with DoTs without worrying about what's next. The damage seems alright, although I really wish I could see an 8% increase on Ravage just for the sake of letting go of my old 2-set because it really makes me sad how little Ravage hits for.

 

I'll try to keep current with the thread with the help of my friend here, but until then I'll keep raiding, parsing, and reminiscing of the old days.

 

 

D'han Rahl, The Master Commander, out.

Edited January 26, 2015 by oasisX

[oofalong]

I know you won't be able to directly respond, but here goes anyways"

 

First DoT Tracking is an annoyance...

Instead of DoT tracking just follow your ability's CD. I have heard many people are annoyed by DoT tracking, but for some reason it has never bothered me. Maybe I am bad or just think differently. Let me explain how I think about it, we have 3 DoTs:

 

• Deadly | Overload Saber - Don't really need to track as its CD is longer than its DoT. (May need to track it if you want to ensure using Berserk | Zen with 3 stacks, but still I think it is easier to think "use Berserk 2 GCDs after using Deadly | Overload Saber"
  
• Force Rend | Melt - Given the rotation I laid out here, you use Force Rend | Melt as soon as it lights up assuming you have the UI proc light-ups turned on. Thus, no need to track this DoT.
  
• Rupture | Cauterize - Again using the rotation I laid out, you are always using this ability or Deadly Saber | Overload Saber 3 GCDs after Annihilate | Merciless Slash. Thus, if Deadly Saber | Overload Saber is on CD it must be time to use Rupture | Cauterize.
  

 

I think all of the above is really easy to do with 100% uptime, but as fights cause you to miss GCDs this becomes tougher. Still, I think you are probably best/safest to just resume your rotation as soon as you get back in melee range or restart if the downtime is longer.

 

...that applies an armour penetration. Our only armour pen skill is granted from Carnage at the moment...

 

There is no way we'd be able to pick up a 3rd target debuff, which means we'd have to lose Assailable given that Beat Down is available to all Maras | Sents. Also, Sundered is already the most common debuff available with 7 different ACs/specs applying it. (Note: I am not really commenting on your Force Rend | Force Melt just commenting on the Sundered part of it.)

 

Secondly, Rupture just feels pathetic.

The base DoT damage of Rupture | Cauterize actually went up by 135%, but we lost 6% in Critical Chance and 25% in Surge due to the redesign of passives in the skill tree/disciplines.

[Sapperlot]

Are there really only these handfull of Anni/Watchmen Players left?

Frightening.

This doesn´t look really good IF changes comes to the PTS.

Anyway, maybe we have to decide what to do with Force Rent/Melt. It seems that there is no consensus what to do with it.

The question is at the moment:

Do we want a third DOT? If we want a third one how should it look like?

If that is clear i think it is much more easy to think about how the rotation will work, isn´t it?

The only thing that seems to be clear is that the duration is too long and the tracking in "hectic" fights like Torque HM is sometimes difficult. In addition it is hard in fight´s like this get 3 Anni/ Merciles hits before this DOT runs out.

 

In my opinion we don´t need a third Dot, but more important is that the flow have to come back. So maybe the solution is the reset of the ICD back to 1.5s (plus the 10% chance that it could happen) like it was. But that is something i have to see, i can´t imagine that.

 

The best solution would be maybe to stay in touch with BW and test the options on the PTS but with only these few people i´m afraid that they say....who cares

[oofalong]

Are there really only these handfull of Anni/Watchmen Players left?

 

I still believe there are a large number of Anni | Watchman players, we definitely did lose some vocal community members. I suspect the remaining players don't comment/post especially in light of all the negativity around the spec. That is, with everyone else saying how bad things are I don't think there are going to be too many brave souls to step up and say, "I am happy with the changes".

 

Anyway, maybe we have to decide what to do with Force Rent/Melt. It seems that there is no consensus what to do with it...Do we want a third DOT?

 

I think it would be great to focus the thread on this question now; as part of figuring what we'd like it to be, maybe we can figure out what, if anything, people currently like about it.

 

I, for one, am not opposed to a 3rd DoT although what I like about the ability is being able to deal damage without being in melee range.

[MorgenBlue]

I don't think Force Rend / Melt really fits with what the spec was from 1.0 -through to 2.10. Pre 3.0 Annihilation / Watchman was pretty unique, it was a DoT spec that didn't really play like a DoT spec and I think adding that third DoT pushes it to far from that.

 

It's nice that it can deal damage outside of melee range but thats about it. Simplest solution is to turn it into a replacement for a base class ability.

[Stippling]

I don't think Force Rend / Melt really fits with what the spec was from 1.0 -through to 2.10. Pre 3.0 Annihilation / Watchman was pretty unique, it was a DoT spec that didn't really play like a DoT spec and I think adding that third DoT pushes it to far from that.

 

It's nice that it can deal damage outside of melee range but thats about it. Simplest solution is to turn it into a replacement for a base class ability.

 

What if they did away with the abilities that removed the minimum range requirements of Force Charge and instead made Force Rend a bleed that generated 4 rage, on a 12 second cooldown. Would simplify dot tracking, reduce the need of Force Charge and reallocate it to a 100% mobility move, and free up GCDs (2 per 24) for other alterations in the rotation, i.e. if people hardcore wanted the Rupture 6 seconds back (not really on board with that personally).

 

Or, in other words, make Force Rend a pseudo-replacement for Force Charge, without actually putting them on the same cooldown.

[KarathAnno]

Widely Accepted Suggested Change #1: Change DoT spreading to Dual Saber Throw | Twin Saber Throw, specifically:

• Change Hemorrhaging Smash | Burning Sweep to "Dual Saber Throw | Twin Saber Throw spreads your Rupture | Cauterize and Force Rend | Force Melt bleeds | Burns to targets it hits, if it hits a target already affected by those bleeds."
  
• Change Pulverize | Mind Sear to "Your bleeding | burning effects have a 20% chance to grant Pulverize | Mind Sear which increased the damage of your next Dual Saber Throw | Twin Saber Throw by 100% and finishes its cooldown. This effect can only occur once every 18s.
  

 

This change better aligns our single target rotation with our DoT spreading ability similar to Serenity | Hatred. Plus, it allows use to utilize Dual Saber Throw | Twin Saber Throw for damaging multiple targets without jeopardizing its place in our single target rotation due to Pulverize | Mind Sear.

 

These would be welcomed changes. As it stands out DoT spreading is painful: small area, costly, and does not fit into our rotation at all. Changing it to TST would be a huge improvement,

 

I would also really like to see our self-healing either go back to 2% or become a true life-steal like Hatred with Berserk still causing auto crits and healing the team for the same amount on those ticks.

[Ardarell_Solo]

I think it would be great to focus the thread on this question now; as part of figuring what we'd like it to be, maybe we can figure out what, if anything, people currently like about it.

 

I, for one, am not opposed to a 3rd DoT although what I like about the ability is being able to deal damage without being in melee range.

 

It's actually our fourth Dot, after Overload Saber, Cauterize and Force Stasis ;-)

 

Speaking of which: If Force Melt has to be a Dot, I'd want it on short duration as well, might even be the 4secs Stasis has, max duration would be 6 secs for me, and ability on 12s Cooldown e.g.

 

But I'd really really rather not have another Dot, especially if Cauterize is on 12s duration.

 

As I said before, the design of Force Melt depends on what else you do with the rotation. My problem being that I don't like the core rotation even independent of Melt: Rupture on 12secs static is the first thing that destroys the flow and involvement of the player. It's the ouverture to "Watchman Snooze Fest" that is then aggravated by Melt.

 

All in all I think the spec needs to return to its short Dots and they should be synchronized like I said. Problem is, this will always conflict with Master Strike, which is another problematic variable with its shortened Cooldown and damage nerf. Because all three Dots on 6s duration means they will conflict with Master Strike ever so often, since you cant do:

 

Merciless

Melt

Cauterize

Master Strike 1

Master Strike 2

 

without delaying the next Merciless.

 

So: What about letting Accelerating Victory accelerate the channeling speed of Master Strike for 33% per stack? We'd have to see this in action, wether it looks too rushed or yakety-saxy ;-)

 

For the part of the rotation with Master Strike in it that would give us:

 

Merciless

Cauterize

Melt

Master Strike 1+2

Merciless

 

Melt could then also keep the Accelerating Victory mechanic of being free with enough stacks.

 

 

BUT: My favourite solution would still be to return to pre 3.0 rotation with the proc on Cauterize and make Force Melt a direct damage force ability from 10m on a 9s or 12s Cooldown that can proc Cauterize with the same (upped) chances as Slash. So Melt is an occasional Filler that replaces Slash when off Cooldown.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Ardarell_Solo

[Emperor-Norton]

I, for one, am not opposed to a 3rd DoT although what I like about the ability is being able to deal damage without being in melee range.

In PvE and PvP I like the idea of giving the spec an attack that is a sort of introductory attack to killing someone. It does good damage, and for PvP it controls the opponent slightly (preferably with a root). It also can to be used from intermediate range. So I don't mind Force Melt as is but I also don't inherently like it either. I don't think it should be an immediate damage attack, nor do I think that it should relate to a Merciless proccing Cauterize dynamic. However I think there are other things we can do with the attack that are more than just making it a DoT.

 

What if we turned it into a sort of Weakening Blast type ability; where it deals some damage, but then makes it so the target is more susceptible to your other attacks, or it gives you a buff that makes you deal increased Melee Damage, increased Dot Damage, or both. I kinda am against the dot damage idea since that would attach more RNG than necessary to the ability (assuming that RNG and old Mind Sear is brought back, which really needs to happen). While applying it to the target does hurt if they die early (why I prefer a self buff), but what do people think of that idea for changing Force Melt?

Edited January 27, 2015 by Emperor-Norton

[Jedi_____Warrior]

I want force melt to do what force sweep does just better and bleed/ spread dot

 

Also something done with force leap reduction so u can jump more often

[Ardarell_Solo]

What if we turned it into a sort of Weakening Blast type ability; where it deals some damage, but then makes it so the target is more susceptible to your other attacks, or it gives you a buff that makes you deal increased Melee Damage, increased Dot Damage, or both. I kinda am against the dot damage idea since that would attach more RNG than necessary to the ability (assuming that RNG and old Mind Sear is brought back, which really needs to happen). While applying it to the target does hurt if they die early (why I prefer a self buff), but what do people think of that idea for changing Force Melt?

 

Interesting! I like the idea of some initial damage + self buff. Initial damage would need to be part of it, else it might be a little close to current Precision/Gore.

 

On the other hand it would add to ramp-up time - except it would be off CD, but that would make it even more similar to Precision/Gore. Plus in a way Overlaod Saber already plays that role in our rotation...

 

 

Thinking about it, I'm not sure wether the nature of Force Melt is really the next important thing to decide. Maybe we'd first have to know about the Cauterize mechanic (proc or no proc, duration, Cooldown). Assuming Master Strike will stay on its new (and problematic) 18s Cooldown, we'd have to look at that rotation then and decide which kind of ability would fit in best - putting the icing on the cake then, so to speak...

 

So maybe we should ask for Dev feedback about which aspects they will put up for change in the first place. If we can get them to tell us what is not up for debate and what is, we could make more specific and better thought out suggestions. I assume, Master Strike's CD is locked and I hope Cauterize duration and proc might be open for discussion, but until we know for sure, we're all but playing a design guessing game...

[TACeMossie]

So I think I've got everything covered:

 

CAUTERIZE/RUPTURE

 

Given 12 second cooldown, length reduced to 6 seconds, damage dealt reduced slightly. Still ticks every second

 

LEVEL 12 SKILL

 

Replaced with Mind Sear/Pulverize - Merciless Slash/Annihilate finishes the cooldown on Cauterize/Rupture and makes it free. Slash/Vicious Slash and Dispatch/Vicious Throw can also do this, but its a 50% chance.

 

LEVEL 52 SKILL

 

Replaced with Burning Throw/Hemorrhaging Throw - Causes your Burns/Bleeds to have a 20% chance of finishing the cooldown on Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw, and increase the damage it deals by 100%. In addition, Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw spreads the burns/bleeds provided by Cauterize/Rupture and Force Melt/Force Rend to all targets hit so long as one is affected by it.

 

FORCE MELT/FORCE REND

 

I got nothing. Maybe add a cooldown, maybe reduce cost and make it happen quicker, I dunno.

 

ACCELERATING VICTORY/SWIFT DEMISE

 

Stacks granted from this decrease the channel speed of Master Strike/Ravage by 0.5 seconds/stack instead of reducing the focus cost of force melt. You don't need cheaper Melt/Rend anyway - Free Cauterize/Rupture would make up for it.

 

As for turning Melt/Rend into a Weakening Blast like ability... Sents/Marauders already have one... In Zen/Berserk (Juyo Form)

 

At least, the pre-3.0 version of it...

Edited January 27, 2015 by TACeMossie

[Ardarell_Solo]

So I think I've got everything covered:

 

CAUTERIZE/RUPTURE

 

Given 12 second cooldown, length reduced to 6 seconds, damage dealt reduced slightly. Still ticks every second

 

LEVEL 12 SKILL

 

Replaced with Mind Sear/Pulverize - Merciless Slash/Annihilate finishes the cooldown on Cauterize/Rupture and makes it free. Slash/Vicious Slash and Dispatch/Vicious Throw can also do this, but its a 50% chance.

 

LEVEL 52 SKILL

 

Replaced with Burning Throw/Hemorrhaging Throw - Causes your Burns/Bleeds to have a 20% chance of finishing the cooldown on Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw, and increase the damage it deals by 100%. In addition, Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw spreads the burns/bleeds provided by Cauterize/Rupture and Force Melt/Force Rend to all targets hit so long as one is affected by it.

 

FORCE MELT/FORCE REND

 

I got nothing. Maybe add a cooldown, maybe reduce cost and make it happen quicker, I dunno.

 

ACCELERATING VICTORY/SWIFT DEMISE

 

Stacks granted from this decrease the channel speed of Master Strike/Ravage by 0.5 seconds/stack instead of reducing the focus cost of force melt. You don't need cheaper Melt/Rend anyway - Free Cauterize/Rupture would make up for it.

 

As for turning Melt/Rend into a Weakening Blast like ability... Sents/Marauders already have one... In Zen/Berserk (Juyo Form)

 

At least, the pre-3.0 version of it...

 

 

I think for MS you mean INcrease channel SPEED or DEcrease channel TIME ;-)

 

 

Main issue I have with this is that a proc with 100% chance is not a proc at all: You'd be doing

Merciless

Cauterize

X

X

 

forever, so we'd basically trade a 36s snooze fest for a 6s snooze fest ;-)

 

Mace described in some other thread why it's a huge difference wether you do MS - C - X - X while having to fight for Cauterize in that spot and making the most of X - X in that regard or wether you just do it when it's guranteeed. On paper it's the same thing, but playing it means involvement and excitement versus hacking away and falling asleep doing it ;-)

 

I see why you do the 100% thing though, since it's the keystone for resource management in your build and things pretty much would fall apart if you didn't get the Cauterize proc, because you'd be losing dps AND lack the resources to correct via Slash.

 

So if we go that route (and I still don't like that 18s Dot on Melt) I'd say have Accelerating Victory shorten Master Strike AND reduce the cost on Force Melt, leave Cauterize proc chances at 3.0 level for Merciless and raise them to 50% on Slash and Dispatch and drop the idea of the proc making Cauterize free.

[Ardarell_Solo]

Here's the basic rotation for what I'm suggesting on the basis of:

 

 

• Cauterize duration is 6s and ability has 15s Cooldown
   
   
  
• Cauterize is procced by Merciless Slash/Force Melt (75% chance) and Slash/Dispatch (50% chance).
  But we reinstate the 6s ICD on it, so it's not possible to "pre proc" Cauterize (Mace has explained why that messed things up after 2.10.)
   
   
  
• Accelerating Victory shortens the channel time of Master Strike by 0.5 s per stack and reduces focus cost of Force Melt by 1 per stack
   
   
  
• Force Melt is a direct damage force attack, 10m range, 15 secs cooldown, costs 3 focus (refunds one on use)
   
   
  
• Double Saber Throw proc stays in as in 3.0, but also resets ability Cooldown and spreads dots from Cauterize plus 1 stack of Overload Saber (Stacks on primary target are increased as usual)
   
  

 

Rotation after opener:

 

Merciless Slash

Filler

Master Strike (aacelerated to 1 GCD channel)

Cauterize

 

Merciless Slash

Filler

Filler

Cauterize

 

Merciless Slash

Filler

Filler

Cauterize

 

FILLER priority would be:

- Force Melt (basically only useable once per cycle, except used as very first and very last filler)

- Double Saber Throw

- Zealous Strike

- Leap

- Dispatch

- Slash

- Strike

 

 

Now the interesting part (as that's the whole point of criticism) is the dynamics of failed procs. To show this I put in fillers.

Say for example:

 

Merciless Slash -> proc on Cauterize

Force Leap

Master Strike (aacelerated to 1 GCD channel)

Cauterize

 

Merciless Slash -> no proc on Cauterize

Force Melt -> proc on Cauterize

Zealous Strike

Cauterize

 

Merciless Slash -> proc on Cauterize

Double Saber Throw

Force Leap

Cauterize

 

Merciless Slash -> proc on Cauterize

Strike

Master Strike (aacelerated to 1 GCD channel)

Cauterize

 

Merciless Slash -> proc on Cauterize

Force Melt

Force Leap

Cauterize

 

Merciless Slash -> no proc on Cauterize

Slash -> proc on Cauterize

Zealous Strike

Cauterize

 

Merciless Slash -> proc on Cauterize

Double Saber Throw

Master Strike (aacelerated to 1 GCD channel)

Cauterize

 

...

 

Of course, if all three GCDs after Merciless fail to proc Cauterize, it will go elsewhere in the 4 GCD cylce - which is not a problem with a 1 GCD Master Strike. Welcome back, Watchman dynamics! :-)

 

 

Additional Notes on Force Melt:

 

Why it's a good top tier ability:

 

 

• It contributes to the core of the specc (speaking pre 3.0.): the proc on Cauterize: It's another high chance ability in addition to the spec's signature move, Merciless Strike, that will proc the second dot almost for certain. It thus eliminates some of the RNG the specc had been criticized for, making its rotation and dps more stable.
   
   
  
• It also reduces the amount of the spec's spammable dps ability used: less Slashes. Slash is thus only the third emergency option to proc Cauterize and will not be used as frequently when RNG has failed the player.
   
   
  
• With its 10m range it's another option for mid range combat and switching to distant targets - which is desperately needed in current melee dps unfriendly content. Force Melt as a dot in its current iteration is often useless for target switching, when 10m range is most needed, because the new target will not live long enough for a long dot to be applied.
   
  

 

 

Damage done:

Force Melt would obviously have to do more damage than Slash, but probably less than Dispatch, since it's a force attack and has a higher proc chance on Cauterize. Plus Dispatch needs to have a good reason to be used sub 30%, especially if target is so close to dying that lower chance on Cauterize proc isn't an issue. Cauterize will still have to be the second strongest ability after Overload Saber and better than Merciless Slash.

 

 

Also possible as a Dot:

If we really, really have to have another Dot in Force Melt, it would have to be a short one, especially if we want to make use of its 10m range, like I explained above. If need be, make it tick 4 times for 4 seconds right from application, or 6 times for 6s total.

 

 

EDIT:

When you examine the rotation above, you realize how much of a problem having Master Strike in every 3rd block is. If we can't get its channel time reduced, I'm afraid we'd have to drop the proc on Double Saber Throw and thus eliminate it from single target rotation. Otherwise there just won't be enough room for the proc and getting it back if it failed - which is the fun mechanic we all want back. I think Double Saber Throw could still serve well in AoE rotation and get to be the ability to spread out dots like everyone wants it to, though.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Ardarell_Solo

[WhiteOsprey]

I'm in the camp of wanting the old playsyle back. Restore the cool down on rupture and bring back the proc to reset it. I like the idea of DST spreading the dots instead of smash. I'm definitely not a fan of force rend as it currently is. Not sure if this idea has been floated but I'd like to see it become what lethal shot is to the virulence sniper. Have it replace vicious slash and do x amount of weapon dmg with an additional x amount of internal bleed dmg. Edited January 27, 2015 by WhiteOsprey

[Emperor-Norton]

After playing Watchman in PvP some more and really getting down to min maxing the spec, I am going to have disagree with what I said earlier and agree with people about changing Force Melt away from being a DoT. The playstyle of the spec just broils down to DoT everything within reach, then try to kill stuff specific targets with Merciless and Master Strike. Plus try and cleave with TST. I pretty rarely do any kind of real single target rotation, and using Merciless isn't that close to being used on CD in favor of Force Melt and Cauterize on all the things. I think the spec would work a lot better and be a lot more fun if it got changed back to the old format, with Force Melt being a different take on Weakening Blast.