Beniboybling Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 Vitiate/Caedus vs Plagueis in TK.All three could perform powerful Force waves, they are at an impasse really. I mean we have the fact that Plagueis' Force Waves are extremely powerful, but individuals such as Galen Marek have performed even more impressive displays and I'm sure that Caedus and the Sith Emperor are both stronger than him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 He could also appear in different parts of the galaxy as well. It doesn't matter. Want to argue how much Vitiate can do as a spirit? Then we need Exar Kun in this discussion. The contenders for 4th place keeps growing. OK you do make a fair point there, thanks for the input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Authorial intentions Aurbere, the authors are trying to tell us something here, and nowhere do they drop any hints this characters are misinformed. Not exactly the best logic. But if you want to go with that, OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 *glances at him utterly dominating Thanaton* mmhk.He defeated him after a lengthy engagement, not that impressive. Its not as if Plagueis couldn't do the same, but faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 Not exactly the best logic. But if you want to go with that, OK.All I'm saying is that we have no reason to doubt them as a source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 All I'm saying is that we have no reason to doubt them as a source. Sure we do, but I'm not willing to argue that as it isn't exactly important to the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) Regardless if you guys want two votes from those of us "in the audience?" I vote Plagueis. My mind has been changed. It's not that I think vitiate is weak. There's just a lot of speculation about his true abilities, his power, etc. With plagueis? We know what he's capable of. We have examples of his power. We've seen his displays. His force defense is nigh impenetrable being able to withstand Sidious going all out to kill him with a force storm (the book uses the word storm), he even amps up his lightning until Plagueis calls his midichlorians and stands up. That's when Sidious goes to choke him and hold him in place then has a whole solo discussion with him until he fails from the lack of a respirator. Sidious himself calls Plagueis his equal at that time frame. I can pull up the full quote if you'd like. Plagueis was so strong in the dark side of the force he was capable of creating Nexuses and massive weather changes just from his mere presence. Force waves capable of "all but atomizing" his opponents. Plagueis can control midichlorians, increase his count, and manipulate them in a living subject killing them. He can bring people back from the dead, heal himself, and more. I don't see any reason why Plagueis doesn't take this. Edited January 21, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 So, have we exhausted all necessary discussion on the three spheres? I'm pretty exhausted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcheseAMM Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) I vote for Vitiate, that's your other vote from the audience. He defeated him after a lengthy engagement, not that impressive. Its not as if Plagueis couldn't do the same, but faster. I was referring to the one from Act 2. Edited January 21, 2015 by MarcheseAMM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) I don't really think so, I don't see how Vader's endurance feats are better than Plagueis... I mean in a weakened state Plagueis was able to perform feats that outstrip Vader's capabilities at full fighting strength. I would appreciate specifics, if you are able to provide, concerning Caedus' lightning feats so we can confirm that possibility, however you do make a good point and it is one that I had not considered, requires further thought. I don't see what your referring to in regards to Caedus have superior telekinetic abilities however. Both Plagueis and Caedus were capable of generating powerful Force waves so I'm not sure I see what your getting at. Yes it is, because your applying your theories specifically, it makes it much easier to engage in proper debate. Vader endurance feats vs Plaegus. Plaegus nearly killed able to fight and kill 6 - 12 people? Vader nearly killed does the same thing with his mask ripped off with his bare hands.... Pre-ANH (as far as I know Plaegus takes TPM sidious's lightning and dies shortly after losing his breathing apparatus Vader: 26 years later a much more powerful Sidious preforms same feat, except Vader manages to destroy Sidious along with him AND he has just had the SNOT beat out of him by his son so is already vastly injured and beaten as is. TK: Caedus > Vader > Star Killer > Galen. also Turbo Laser redirection. (galen pulling similar TK feats to Plaegus, if not better when he was pushed to the limits.. though fairly not sure Plaegus was ever pushed to his limit, though it is possible) Edited January 21, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) Vader endurance feats vs Plaegus. Plaegus nearly killed able to fight and kill 6 - 12 people? Vader nearly killed does the same thing with his mask ripped off with his bare hands.... Pre-ANH (as far as I know Plaegus takes TPM sidious's lightning and dies shortly after losing his breathing apparatus Vader: 26 years later a much more powerful Sidious preforms same feat, except Vader manages to destroy Sidious along with him AND he has just had the SNOT beat out of him by his son so is already vastly injured and beaten as is. TK: Caedus > Vader > Star Killer > Galen. also Turbo Laser redirection. Shortly after? It wasn't shortly after. The first thing Sidious did was destroy his breathing apparatus. After that he took his entire storm and was choked. Sidious was going ALL out to kill him. He even considered briefly not even doing it but turned as he was leaving realizing he may never get another chance. He wanted to kill him. He needed to do it then and there. Plagueis was also drinking and couldn't keep his eyes opened. Was ambushed in his sleep. Vader grabbed Sidious before Sidious unleashed a barrage on him. Was probably squeezing him as well. Vader died as a direct result of the lightning's damage to his body. Plagueis died as a direct result of not enough AIR. He stood up while being electrocuted. Using his midichlorians to protect him. He wasn't being damaged by it. He was RESISTING it. Edited January 21, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) Shortly after? It wasn't shortly after. The first thing Sidious did was destroy his breathing apparatus. After that he took his entire storm and was choked. Sidious was going ALL out to kill him. He even considered briefly not even doing it but turned as he was leaving realizing he may never get another chance. He wanted to kill him. He needed to do it then and there. Vader same feat, manages to destroy Sidious along with him, AFTER getting the snot beat out of him by his son. Sidious even stronger. Vader survives all the way to the hangar and only dies to respitator failure. Vader's body wasnt harmed... his suit was, he died from his suits failure. Edited January 21, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Plagueis is the one true Lord of the #4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) Vader same feat, manages to destroy Sidious along with him, AFTER getting the snot beat out of him by his son. Sidious even stronger. Vader survives all the way to the hangar and only dies to respitory failure. It isn't the same feat. At all and Sidious wasn't using a force storm. Vader also caught Sidious unaware not the other way around. The lightning was killing him, not being resisted. Vader had his breathing apparatus. Sidious destroyed Plagueis breathing apparatus deliberately. Sidious was buying for time. Plagueis was drunk and just came out of a sleep. Another thing is.. Plagueis let him do it. Sidious: He opened his eyes but laid there. He was challenging him! Plagueis wasn't trying to kill Sidious. He was testing his own immortality. Edited January 21, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Plagueis is the one true Lord of the #4 Ah, there's two. Now all Beni has to do is agree with my undeniable logic. I'll be sure to make that clear when the three of us convene to discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 It isn't the same feat. At all and Sidious wasn't using a force storm. Vader also caught Sidious unaware not the other way around. The lightning was killing him, not being resisted. Vader had his breathing apparatus. Sidious destroyed Plagueis breathing apparatus deliberately. Sidious was buying for time. Plagueis was drunk and just came out of a sleep. Another thing is.. Plagueis let him do it. Sidious: He opened his eyes but laid there. He was challenging him! Plagueis wasn't trying to kill Sidious. He was testing his own immortality. I think he tried to fight back at first with a storm of objects, then let Sidious go. I'll have to check, unless you have the book on hand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) It isn't the same feat. At all and Sidious wasn't using a force storm. Vader also caught Sidious unaware not the other way around. The lightning was killing him, not being resisted. Vader had his breathing apparatus. Sidious destroyed Plagueis breathing apparatus deliberately. Sidious was buying for time. Plagueis was drunk and just came out of a sleep. Another thing is.. Plagueis let him do it. Sidious: He opened his eyes but laid there. He was challenging him! Plagueis wasn't trying to kill Sidious. He was testing his own immortality. Lightning didnt kill him, lack of breathing did. His suit's life support system failed. That's the only reason Vader died. It was still done AFTER his son beat him and he was already exhausted ( I think that makes up for the "vader catches him unware instead of the other way around. Dont you?) And it was 26 years later when Palpatine could have been as much as twice as strong ( I think that accounts for the drunk aspect.. Dont you?) They survived just as well... I call it a tie. (For an imagine on 26 years later Sidious, he was nearing the perfection of the REAL Force Storm ability, you know DE, which was done about 10 Years later) Edited January 21, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) I think he tried to fight back at first with a storm of objects, then let Sidious go. I'll have to check, unless you have the book on hand? Sort of. Not a storm of objects though. "Cackling from his fingertips, a web of blue lightning ground itself on the Muun's breathing device. Plagueis's eyes snapped open, the force gathering in him like a storm, but he stopped short of defending himself. This being who survived assassinations and countless opponents merely gazed at Sidious, until it struck him that Plagueis was challenging him! Confident that he couldn't be killed, and in denial that he was slowly suffocating, he might have been simply experimenting with himself, actually courting death to put it in it's place. Momentarily taken back Sidious went completely still. Was Plagueis so self deluded as to believe he had achieved immortality?" Lightning didnt kill him, lack of breathing did. His suit's life support system failed. That's the only reason Vader died. It was still done AFTER his son beat him and he was already exhausted ( I think that makes up for the "vader catches him unware instead of the other way around. Dont you?) And it was 26 years later when Palpatine could have been as much as twice as strong ( I think that accounts for the drunk aspect.. Dont you?) They survived just as well... I call it a tie. (For an imagine on 26 years later Sidious, he was nearing the perfection of the REAL Force Storm ability, you know DE, which was done about 10 Years later) That's speculation. While yes Sidious was stronger he didn't use a force storm on Vader. The book makes it clear he started with force lightning then unleashed a force storm on Plagueis. It could be equal but force storms are the most powerful weapon Sidious has at his disposal. While not perfected in this time (or even ROTJ time) it's still far more powerful than mere force lightning. Edited January 21, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Sort of. Not a storm of objects though. "Cackling from his fingertips, a web of blue lightning ground itself on the Muun's breathing device. Plagueis's eyes snapped open, the force gathering in him like a storm, but he stopped short of defending himself. This being who survived assassinations and countless opponents merely gazed at Sidious, until it struck him that Plagueis was challenging him! Confident that he couldn't be killed, and in denial that he was slowly suffocating, he might have been simply experimenting with himself, actually courting death to put it in it's place. Momentarily taken back Sidious went completely still. Was Plagueis so self deluded as to believe he had achieved immortality?" Oh, thanks! I thought that he had managed some defense. Still, that's a pretty good feat. Concerning that last question, I think the answer is yes. He had reversed his aging effects, which would mean that he could effectively keep his body going forever. He had not, however, achieved invincibility, which would have meant his survival in this case. They are two very different things when you think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) Oh, thanks! I thought that he had managed some defense. Still, that's a pretty good feat. Concerning that last question, I think the answer is yes. He had reversed his aging effects, which would mean that he could effectively keep his body going forever. He had not, however, achieved invincibility, which would have meant his survival in this case. They are two very different things when you think about it. Yup. It's very interesting. Note that he wasn't even using the force to defend himself from Sidious attacks. It stated he didn't. Later Sidious mocks him on that "Call your Midichlorians" and essentially tells him it doesn't matter. He was testing entirely his regenerative abilities and his ability to control his body. He was NOT using the force to defend himself. That's insanely impressive. I'd actually argue it is Palpatine's opinion he was equal to him at that moment but given he was letting palpatine. Given he wasn't even using the force to shield himself. Given that he was using entirely his regenerative abilities. Given that he stood there.. I wonder if he actually wanted to if he could have crushed him at that point in time. I'm not arguing Plagueis > Sidious. No, I'd never do that but I'm questioning if Plagueis might have been more closer to ROTS Sidious. Edited January 21, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 Vader endurance feats vs Plaegus. Plaegus nearly killed able to fight and kill 6 - 12 people? Vader nearly killed does the same thing with his mask ripped off with his bare hands.... Pre-ANH (as far as I know Plaegus takes TPM sidious's lightning and dies shortly after losing his breathing apparatus Vader: 26 years later a much more powerful Sidious preforms same feat, except Vader manages to destroy Sidious along with him AND he has just had the SNOT beat out of him by his son so is already vastly injured and beaten as is. TK: Caedus > Vader > Star Killer > Galen. also Turbo Laser redirection. (galen pulling similar TK feats to Plaegus, if not better when he was pushed to the limits.. though fairly not sure Plaegus was ever pushed to his limit, though it is possible)Plagueis actually let himself die, as weird as that may sound, he made no effort to prevent himself from suffocating, he made no attempt to defend himself from Sidious lightining (who was using all of his power) and it killed him. He seemed to be attempting to save himself using midichlorians, but it failed and as a result he perished. Bear in mind Vader was able to breath without his mask for a short time, Plagueis could not, this is not down to power, but the nature of their injuries. Vader just had damaged lungs, Plagueis' entire windpipe was severed. Plagueis' TK outstrips Marek's massively, despite being in a severely weakened state Plagueis was capable of what Marek would have to unleash a full blown Force repulse to achieve with a mere wave of his hand. Noting that turbolaser redirection is tutanimis, it has nothing to do with TK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Yup. It's very interesting. Note that he wasn't even using the force to defend himself from Sidious attacks. It stated he didn't. Later Sidious mocks him on that "Call your Midichlorians" and essentially tells him it doesn't matter. He was testing entirely his regenerative abilities and his ability to control his body. He was NOT using the force to defend himself. That's insanely impressive. It really is. I had been more focused on his Maladian attack feats and endurance that I hadn't really focused on that. I guess that's because it was the primary focus of my Plagueis thread (which I would like to think is responsible for bringing Plagueis up this far). Good find, Rhyltran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 Yup. It's very interesting. Note that he wasn't even using the force to defend himself from Sidious attacks. It stated he didn't. Later Sidious mocks him on that "Call your Midichlorians" and essentially tells him it doesn't matter. He was testing entirely his regenerative abilities and his ability to control his body. He was NOT using the force to defend himself. That's insanely impressive.Your right actually, nice catch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 It really is. I had been more focused on his Maladian attack feats and endurance that I hadn't really focused on that. I guess that's because it was the primary focus of my Plagueis thread (which I would like to think is responsible for bringing Plagueis up this far). Good find, Rhyltran. Check out my edit. Not using it for the debate. It's pure speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) Check out my edit. Not using it for the debate. It's pure speculation. Ah, found it. I'd actually argue it is Palpatine's opinion he was equal to him at that moment but given he was letting palpatine. Given he wasn't even using the force to shield himself. Given that he was using entirely his regenerative abilities. Given that he stood there.. I wonder if he actually wanted to if he could have crushed him at that point in time. I'm not arguing Plagueis > Sidious. No, I'd never do that but I'm questioning if Plagueis might have been more closer to ROTS Sidious. This was actually briefly touched upon in my Plagueis thread, and a lot of evidence points to him being very close to Sidious by ROTS. Of course, it's completely speculative, but one could make a logical argument, albeit mostly grounded in speculation. Edited January 21, 2015 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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