The REAL Most Powerful Force Users - Rebooted

[Beniboybling]

My assessment is grounded in published literature.

 

Hero of Tython and Revan developed the capability to resist Valkorion's telepathic influence to some extent and arguably prevent him from reducing them to a mindless drone but they could not prevent his intrusion into their minds against their will. Do keep in mind that Revan's mind eventually fractured under pressure of his telepathic tug-of-war with Valkorion; this set the stage of splintering of Revan later on.

 

If you play the Outlander as Hero of Tython and refuse to bend the knee, Valkorion will establish a telepathic link with you against your will, knocking you unconscious in the process (your Chapter 2 experience will be similar to those of other protagonists) but Valkorion will not make an attempt to control you just like in the case of an Outlander based on other protagonists. Telepathic link between the Outlander and Valkorion appears to be similar to that of a Hand with Valkorion in the past.

 

Now suppose that the Outlander is a smuggler, you believe that Valkorion cannot control his mind? It wouldn't put much stock on the dialogues in this regard.

- Vitiate only could only enter Revan's mind by establishing a telepathic link.

- This was done when he was unconcious, in stasis, and with ritual apparatus.

- Vitiate failed to break Revan's mind despite having 300 years and the Dread Masters to help, the fact that Revan escaped this ordeal with nothing but a split personality complex hardly reflects well on Vitiate's abiloty.

 

- Valkorion could only establish a telepathic link with the Outlander a. if he was willing or b. when Valk was in spirit form, and despite that fell short of mental domination.

- Valkorion is only ever stated to be incapable of mentally dominating the Hero of Tython.

 

-Finally as said by Padster, Kira was able to break free of his influence despite being one of his Children.

 

Altogether make as many excuses and appeals to PIS as you like, but the supposed unstoppability of Valkorion's TP is plainly false, as many have resisted his telepathic influence in the path, Ziost does not prove otherwise.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Beniboybling

[PadsterPwns]

My assessment is grounded in published literature.

 

Hero of Tython and Revan developed the capability to resist Valkorion's telepathic influence to some extent and arguably prevent him from reducing them to a mindless drone but they could not prevent his intrusion into their minds against their will. Do keep in mind that Revan's mind eventually fractured under pressure of his telepathic tug-of-war with Valkorion; this set the stage of splintering of Revan later on.

 

If you play the Outlander as Hero of Tython and refuse to bend the knee, Valkorion will establish a telepathic link with you against your will, knocking you unconscious in the process (your Chapter 2 experience will be similar to those of other protagonists) but Valkorion will not make an attempt to control you just like in the case of an Outlander based on other protagonists. Telepathic link between the Outlander and Valkorion appears to be similar to that of a Hand with Valkorion in the past.

 

Now suppose that the Outlander is a smuggler, you believe that Valkorion cannot control his mind? It wouldn't put much stock on the dialogues in this regard.

 

Not meaning to be harsh Legends, but if he could possess any Jedi, why could Kira Carson, a Child of the Emperor, break out of his possession? At this point you're starting to seem unreasonable. With all the evidence provided by Beni, I think it's fairly clear that you're overrating Valky's TP.

[cs_zoltan]

Not meaning to be harsh Legends, but if he could possess any Jedi, why could Kira Carson, a Child of the Emperor, break out of his possession? At this point you're starting to seem unreasonable. With all the evidence provided by Beni, I think it's fairly clear that you're overrating Valky's TP.

 

lol that's impossible. Are you implying that Legend is biased? You don't know who you are talking about son.

[Beniboybling]

*IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT - AGENDA*

 

Right folks, so some admin. There are a few things I'd like to outline in terms of the plan for this project. First off I've decided to expand the list to 15, mainly to accommodate for recent KotFE players but also Jedi characters like Kyp Durron. It's also possible that other lists may be enlarged as well, but more on that when we get there.

 

Now in terms of the agenda, it is as follows:

 

1. Ranking Emperor Valkorion

 

So we've already started on this discussion but I'd like to make it formal, I have an in-depth comparison on the way which I'm interested to hear your thoughts on, and after that we'll try to reach a consensus on where he should be placed. Beginning with Darth Sidious we'll work our way down depending on who he does or does not surpass.

 

2. Ranking Revan

 

Hopefully once that is done Aurbere will have finished his assessment of Revan, if not I'll have an analysis prepared on Kyp Durron so we can get a handle on at which point he should be brought in for consideration.

 

And with Revan being the last candidate considered for the 9th spot, hopefully we can get that placed.

 

3. Ranking #10 and onwards

 

At this stage I expect Arcann and Vaylin to come into play, so I'll make respect threads avaliable and we can begin comparing them to whomever remains and perhaps some new candidates, and then will progress as before until #15.

 

4. Honourable Mentions/TIER System

 

Finally as I mentioned earlier I plan to introduce a tier system once all 15 spots have been filled, which will split the list into sections, each section representing a tier of ability, and acknowledging a level of interchangeability between those ranked. Each tier will also have an honorable mentions section, where we can roughly place characters that are likely around that level of power, but we lack enough information to be specific.

 

So hold off on those lesser explored characters like Gethzerion, Jadus etc. they will all be considered.

 

I'm also hoping to standardise the tier system across each list, so we can establish a means of comparison and make it easy to expand/corroborate the lists in the future. Any suggestions, advice on that is welcome.

 

Altogether its been a long road but we are doing well, so keep it up!

Edited November 1, 2015 by Beniboybling

[cs_zoltan]

2. Ranking Revan

 

Hopefully once that is done Aurbere will have finished his assessment of Revan, if not I'll have an analysis prepared on Kyp Durron so we can get a handle on at which point he should be brought in for consideration.

 

And with Revan being the last candidate considered for the 9th spot, hopefully we can get that placed.

 

We'll have to include the movie characters by then I wager.

[Jarons]

We'll have to include the movie characters by then I wager.

We will be done with the new trilogy by then.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Not meaning to be harsh Legends, but if he could possess any Jedi, why could Kira Carson, a Child of the Emperor, break out of his possession? At this point you're starting to seem unreasonable. With all the evidence provided by Beni, I think it's fairly clear that you're overrating Valky's TP.

My point of contention is that Valkorion's telepathic abilities should not be underestimated. My arguments are grounded in published literature.

 

Kira Carson did not accompany Hero of Tython for his mission to confront Emperor Valkorion on Dromund Kaas. Why not? Because she was vulnerable to his telepathic influence [You cannot take her with you after setting her free from captivity (even if you wanted to)]. Heck, even the Grand Jedi Master Satele Shan was hesitant to accompany Hero of Tython in this mission due to obvious reasons (you can learn this from a dialogue option). This is why Hero of Tython (officially) chose T7-01 droid to assist him in this mission.

 

Hero of Tython is the (only) Jedi in the galaxy [in his era] to have developed a credible countermeasure against telepathic powers. Others are absolutely vulnerable.

Edited November 2, 2015 by S_W_LeGenD

[PadsterPwns]

My point of contention is that Valkorion's telepathic abilities should not be underestimated. My arguments are grounded in published literature.

 

I don't think anyone was underestimating his ability in TP. All I'm trying to say is that if Kira Carson could break out of his control you can't really suggest he could TP DE Luke (unless I misread and you didn't mean to imply that) because otherwise you're basically saying Kira > DE Luke.

 

Kira Carson did not accompany Hero of Tython for his mission to confront Emperor Valkorion on Dromund Kaas. Why not? Because she was vulnerable to his telepathic influence [You cannot take her with you after setting her free from captivity (even if you wanted to)]. Heck, even the Grand Jedi Master Satele Shan was hesitant to accompany Hero of Tython in this mission due to obvious reasons (you can learn this from a dialogue option). This is why Hero of Tython (officially) chose T7-01 droid to assist him in this mission.

 

Hero of Tython is the (only) Jedi in the galaxy [in his era] to have developed a credible countermeasure against telepathic powers. Others are absolutely vulnerable.

 

I know why Kira didn't go to face the Emperor (though I didn't know Satele Shan said that so thanks for posting that) which is logical. I was referring to the end of JK chapter 1 where Kira breaks the Emperor's control over herself. I don't have issue with saying Valky has immense skill and power with TP but claiming that he could TP any Jedi? That's what I have issue with as I'm 99.9% sure that one of your sources is hyperbolic and other than that there is pretty much nothing showing he could TP the likes of DE Luke and Yoda, especially when we've seen much weaker people resist and break out of it.

[PadsterPwns]

1. Ranking Emperor Valkorion

 

So we've already started on this discussion but I'd like to make it formal, I have an in-depth comparison on the way which I'm interested to hear your thoughts on, and after that we'll try to reach a consensus on where he should be placed. Beginning with Darth Sidious we'll work our way down depending on who he does or does not surpass.

 

Is it a good idea to try and rank Valky now? We're only half way through KotFE so it's pretty much certain he's going to perform more feats meaning that we'd likely have to move him again and that's ignoring the fact that Valky may turn out to be an entity meaning he couldn't even be on the list.

[S_W_LeGenD]

I don't think anyone was underestimating his ability in TP. All I'm trying to say is that if Kira Carson could break out of his control you can't really suggest he could TP DE Luke (unless I misread and you didn't mean to imply that) because otherwise you're basically saying Kira > DE Luke.

Kira Carsen was lightyears distance away from Valkorion at that time. She also had Hero of Tython at her side, possibly assisting her in breaking free from his influence. You need to focus on details, friend.

 

Also, sheer raw power doesn't guarantees resistance against telepathic powers. Force-users (stronger then Kira Carsen) failed to tackle Valkorion's telepathic influence on their own. Even Hero of Tython couldn't overcome Valkorion's telepathic influence by himself until the Force ghost of Orgus Din manifested around him and assisted him in this regard.

 

I know why Kira didn't go to face the Emperor (though I didn't know Satele Shan said that so thanks for posting that) which is logical. I was referring to the end of JK chapter 1 where Kira breaks the Emperor's control over herself. I don't have issue with saying Valky has immense skill and power with TP but claiming that he could TP any Jedi? That's what I have issue with as I'm 99.9% sure that one of your sources is hyperbolic and other than that there is pretty much nothing showing he could TP the likes of DE Luke and Yoda, especially when we've seen much weaker people resist and break out of it.

I know which event you have been referring to.

 

Perhaps Hero of Tython is an exception to the norm but his case is not applicable to Luke Skywalker and Yoda by default. Kira Carsen did not go because she was vulnerable, simple.

 

As for the sources, they are not (mine); they are official and part of the SWTOR lore. It is true that Valkorion can break even the strongest Jedi [strongest being the key word here]. Because as I pointed out earlier, raw power (alone) doesn't guarantees protection in this regard. Willpower and experience are more important factors.

 

Suppose that the Outlander is Hero of Tython, why his companions are still worried about his telepathic link with Valkorion? Because they understand that Valkorion cannot be underestimated. What if Valkorion eventually takes control of the Outlander? This would be a worrisome situation for the resistance movement. People are jumping to conclusions here before the story have been completed.

 

- Vitiate only could only enter Revan's mind by establishing a telepathic link.

- This was done when he was unconcious, in stasis, and with ritual apparatus.

The relevant novel doesn't reveals (exactly when and how) Valkorion established a telepathic link with Revan. Details of this procedure have not been provided. We are just informed that this somehow happened.

 

Valkorion strengthened his telepathic link with Revan with a ritual apparatus so that Revan would not be able to break it. There was lightyears distance between the two and if the link breaks, Valkorion would have pay a visit to Revan to reestablish it which he didn't deem practical because he had other matters to attend to.

 

- Vitiate failed to break Revan's mind despite having 300 years and the Dread Masters to help, the fact that Revan escaped this ordeal with nothing but a split personality complex hardly reflects well on Vitiate's abiloty.

You are overlooking Meetra Surik's assistance in this matter:

 

 

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

 

Her sustenance strengthened his resolve whenever he grew weak, refreshing and restoring him so he could continue his never-ending mental war.

 

 

No Jedi could handle such pressures on his own.

 

- Valkorion could only establish a telepathic link with the Outlander a. if he was willing or b. when Valk was in spirit form, and despite that fell short of mental domination.

Valkorion's motive is to establish a telepathic link with the Outlander (irrespective of who he is). His motive isn't to control the Outlander for story-telling purpose [yet]. We don't really know what Valkorion intends to do with the Outlander.

 

- Valkorion is only ever stated to be incapable of mentally dominating the Hero of Tython.

Perhaps this is true. Perhaps not.

 

Valkorion could be bluffing. He wanks every Outlander in some way.

 

-Finally as said by Padster, Kira was able to break free of his influence despite being one of his Children.

See above.

 

Altogether make as many excuses and appeals to PIS as you like, but the supposed unstoppability of Valkorion's TP is plainly false, as many have resisted his telepathic influence in the path, Ziost does not prove otherwise.

I am not making excuses, I have supported my arguments with official information. You are ignoring some official revelations because they challenge your agenda. I am not asserting that Valkorion's telepathic powers are infallible, I am simply pointing out that they should not be underestimated.

 

Sheer raw power doesn't guarantees resistance against telepathic powers; additional factors make difference as well such as experience and willpower. Experience enables a Force-user to develop and/or master new techniques to counter a threat. Force-users (stronger then Kira Carsen) failed to tackle Valkorion's telepathic influence on their own. Even Hero of Tython couldn't overcome Valkorion's telepathic influence by himself until the Force ghost of Orgus Din manifested around him and assisted him in this regard.

 

Valkorion's ability to break even the strongest Jedi is not a far-fetched and/or surprising revelation. The statement doesn't implies that a Jedi of great strength would remain a pwn forever and/or Valkorion's telepathic powers are infallible, just that even the strongest Jedi is not invincible because it takes more than raw power to successfully resist (potent) telepathic powers.

 

Suppose that the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy [from another era] confronts Valkorion; it is possible that this Jedi may succumb to Valkorion's telepathic influence because he have no idea how potent Valkorion's telepathic powers are and his current defensive abilities are insufficient.

Edited November 2, 2015 by S_W_LeGenD

[Beniboybling]

Is it a good idea to try and rank Valky now? We're only half way through KotFE so it's pretty much certain he's going to perform more feats meaning that we'd likely have to move him again and that's ignoring the fact that Valky may turn out to be an entity meaning he couldn't even be on the list.

Well I see this as a living document really, so whatever updates that need to be made, will be made, but as it stands we have a lot of feats from Valkorion/Vitiate that warrants a reappraisal, if we are to keep the list current.

 

Bearing in mind we might not get new chapters in 2016.

[PadsterPwns]

Well I see this as a living document really, so whatever updates that need to be made, will be made, but as it stands we have a lot of feats from Valkorion/Vitiate that warrants a reappraisal, if we are to keep the list current.

 

Bearing in mind we might not get new chapters in 2016.

 

Fair points, I didn't think about those. I like the other suggestions, especially the honorable mentions.

Edited November 2, 2015 by PadsterPwns

[Beniboybling]

EDIT: Posted too early, will edit this soon. Edited November 2, 2015 by Beniboybling

[cs_zoltan]

EDIT: Posted too early, will edit this soon.

 

That early?

[Rhyltran]

Well I see this as a living document really, so whatever updates that need to be made, will be made, but as it stands we have a lot of feats from Valkorion/Vitiate that warrants a reappraisal, if we are to keep the list current.

 

Bearing in mind we might not get new chapters in 2016.

 

Starting 2016 we're supposed to get them monthly. Even if they don't uphold that promise we should see some chapters but regardless I agree.

 

As for Legend, you were asked where it was stated that he could possess the strongest Jedi. You gave this quote..

 

"From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex Entry titled "The Emperor's Fallen Jedi (Knight)."

 

The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side.

 

Wither and ruin the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side =/= Mind control. Sidious did the very same thing to the entire Jedi order. He clouded the force itself making it difficult for even the strongest Jedi to fully connect to the light side of the force weakening the entire order. This is not the same as mind control. The above would be a good description of what Sidious did without it relating to mind control.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Beniboybling]

Mmmm, a good point. It also fails to provide context, so for example it could mean he could "wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side" with the time and conditions needed to break them.

That early?

Mmm, sooner than soon infact. Indeed, as soon as possible. Edited November 2, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

DARTH SIDIOUS VS EMPEROR VALKORION

 

So below is my personal comparison of Darth Sidious and Emperor Valkorion, in which I'll be accounting for ROTS/ROTJ & DE Palpatine individually, and reaching individual conclusions, your thoughts are of course welcome.

 

Note: It's a lot to read, so pace yourself. We can start reviewing peoples thoughts over this week.

 

Comparison of Control

 

1. Valkorion was able to shrug off corporeal death with apparent ease, existing as a non-coporeal being beyond death.

 

"Ziost. The world where everything changed. For me, you… the galaxy.

 

…They died opening my eyes to the truth. I have passed beyond death’s reach.

 

…Voices… Hands… Children… I no longer require those crude vessels. At long last I am truly free."

 

--Valkorion, in Knights of the Fallen Empire

vs. ROTS/ROTJ Palpatine

I would argue this to be Valkorion’s most impressive accomplishment, and the sole field he surpasses Sidious in, whom after experiencing a similar bodily death almost succumbed the void, remaining stranded for over a year:

He had spent over a year disembodied, formless, drifting through the maddening void of the Dark Side. He had never foreseen having to transport his spirit so far across space. He had nearly dispersed forever…

 

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook

Valkorion in comparison literally laughs in the face of his demise.

 

However, does this sole accomplishment demonstrate Valkorion to have a superior command over the Force? I would not think so. After all is there not another Force user, with an inferior command of the Force to Palpatine, who nonetheless appeared to possess a greater level of bodily and spiritual mastery?

 

No one comes to mind? I’ll give you a hint:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4579376-7741890264-45754.gif

 

Mother Talzin my friends, who was able to render herself incorporeal at will, and revert to a physical state with ease. And indeed after sacrificing much of her form Talzin appears to experience a bodily death, she perishes:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111179633/4579391-8651547699-vQ4AX.gif

 

And yet what cannot be any more than months later, is depicted communicating with Maul in the depth of space, who later helps restore her form:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4568653-son+of+dathomir+talzin+appears.jpg

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111179633/4579397-0649077874-45685.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111179633/4579398-0201620072-45685.jpg

 

Darth Sidious has never demonstrated such ability, nor do we have any reason to believe he possessed such powers. And yet he is able to overpower her with a superior command over the Force. No Talzin is not on the same level as Valkorion in these matters, but it sets a precedence for knowledge, experience etc. granting powers those with a superior command over the Force do not possess.

 

Indeed this is not the first time Valkorion has died, and he has plenty of experience in matters of essence transfer in crafting his various Voices, Children etc.

 

Sidious has no such experience, yet despite that manages to rend time and space to survive:

Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him years earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body.

 

--Taken from Star Wars: Gamer #5 – The Emperor’s Pawns

So he is clearly no slouch in this department.

vs. Reborn Palpatine

We need make no excuses for DE Palpatine, who after experiencing and surviving corporeal death once, is described as never needing fear it again:

He had nearly dispersed forever, but he had survived, and now need never fear death again.

 

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook

With him recovering from several corporeal deaths over the course of Dark Empire, in the first instance Sidious actually willed his body to die before taking up residence in a younger clone, shedding his physical form just as easily as Valkorion:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4293563-3829056665-19944.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4293564-1758008723-19944.jpg

 

And when killed in the depths of space, far from his clone bodies, Sidious nonetheless successfully travels back to Byss to inhabit a new form:

Separated from his clones, Palpatine was forced to survive in the maddening, bodiless existence of the void. Through sheer will he retained his identity, crossing the gulf of space to again take up residence in his clone body.

 

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

It’s quite obvious that he too had move “beyond death’s reach” as well. Indeed, like Valkorion, he had transcended corporeal form, becoming an entity:

The key to Luke's turning is the moment when he and Leia realize the Emperor is no longer defined by his physical form, but has become a chaotic nexus of dark energies that swell and burst open the fabric of space, tearing apart everything in the vicinity, human and machine.

 

--Taken from Dark Empire Endnotes

Described, I might add, as far more deadly and potent than Valkorion ever has. In fact it took every Jedi residing in the Netherworld of the Force to contain him:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4293492-8786992501-19943.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4293493-5856215555-19943.jpg

 

Including some of the most powerful Jedi ever like Yoda and Anakin. I await Valkorion to be lauded with comparable tenacity.

Altogether, Valkorion possesses superior mastery over Control in comparison to ROTS/ROTJ Sidious, but this does not necessarily mean superior command of the Force, and Reborn Palpatine is every bit his equal.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Comparison of Sense

 

1. Valkorion was able to conjure illusions of the past using flow-walking.

 

 

So Valkorion transports the Outlander to various places across the galaxy where battles with the Eternal Empire have taken place. Distorting aspects of his surroundings to reflect various symbolic themes and physical threats.

 

This is a very impressive demonstration of flow-walking, but what is important to note is that Valkorion is a spirit when he performs it i.e. a cosmic entity, part of the Cosmic Force which all living things transcend to upon death. The Cosmic Force is also that which governs space and time, so it is no wonder that when on this separate plane of existence, Valkorion was able to manipulate these forces with ease.

 

vs. ROTS/ROTJ Palpatine

It’s not really accurate to make a comparison with a corporeal being who literally inhabits a different dimension, but Palpatine has nonetheless demonstrate the ability to project potent “dreamscapes” in the mind of another.

 

For example by exploiting Dooku’s Force bond with Yoda, and Yoda’s presence on Korriban, he was able to plunge Yoda into an illusion from lightyears away:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxiXU6xXxoI

 

Which they used to attempt to corrupt Yoda to the dark side, conjuring an illusion of Sifo-Dyas, and later themselves, that were capable of doing them harm.

 

There are definite parallels that can be drawn between these two “dreams” and I think in that respect demonstrates Sidious has considerable talent in this area, especially considering how powerful a Jedi Yoda was.

vs. Reborn Palpatine

DE Palpatine lacks feats to make a comparison, but considering he expanded on his knowledge and command over the dark side, we should assume his abilities in these field where even more potent than before.

2. Valkorion was seemingly able to bring time a stop at will.

 

Now before we reach some crazy conclusions about Valkorion being Master Mirror, let’s actually get a handle on what Valkorion is doing here.

 

First of all Valkorion claims that time has not actually stopped:

“Accept my help or watch her die. Choose quickly: time has not stopped.”

 

--Valkorion, in Knights of the Fallen Empire

Now we could interpret Valkorion meaning that time hasn’t stopped, merely slowed to a near standstill, but if that were the case you’d still have all the time in the world.

 

Considering that the technique closely resembles the flow-walking technique he used prior, it’s likely he’s using a similar power, taking the Outlander out of himself, onto a cosmic plane of sorts, where time can be perceived differently, though in reality it is still flowing in the physical plane that the Outlander soon returns too.

 

No incarnation of Palpatine has demonstrated anything like this, however again Valkorion is a cosmic entity who can manipulate space and time with ease. It should be fairly obvious that this is not an ability Valkorion can perform in corporeal form, as I needn’t to tell you how handy it would be, especially in avoiding a certain incident. In that respect I don’t think there is any purpose in making a comparison.

Conclusively, Valkorion possesses several abilities in this field that Palpatine does not, but all are made possible by his nature as a cosmic entity, and Sidious nonetheless has talent in some of these areas.

 

So I do not believe it proof of superior command of the Force.

[Beniboybling]

Comparison of Alter

 

1. Valkorion killed Darth Marr with a single blast of Force Lightning.

 

 

vs. ROTS/ROTJ Palpatine

This is an impressive feat, and demonstrates a clear increment in power considering Vitiate required much more effort just to incapacitate the Jedi Strike Team, but we’ve little reason to believe Palpatine’s lightning could not prove as lethal. For example, with his own lightning Palpatine was able to dispatch Mace Windu:

Mace thought blankly, Why? And moved his lightsaber toward the fallen Chancellor. Before he could follow through on his stroke, a sudden arc of blue plasma sheared through his wrist and his hand tumbled away with his lightsaber still in it and Palpatine roared back to his feet and lightning speared from the Sith Lord's hands and without his blade to catch it, the power of Palpatine's hate struck him full-on.

 

He had been so intent on Palpatine's shatterpoint that he'd never thought to look for Anakin's. Dark lightning blasted away his universe. He fell forever.

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith novelisation

Movie depiction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBLcxXR1PMw&t=3m58s

 

And though Mace Windu was made vulnerable by the loss of his hand, it’s made quite clear that even with Vaapad, he was no match for Palpatine’s lightning:

Now Anakin was at Mace's shoulder. Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

 

Palpatine's eyes glowed with power, casting a yellow glare that burned back the rain from around them. "He is a traitor, Anakin. Destroy him."

 

"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade…

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith novelisation

Windu was not killed as quickly as Marr, but as among the most powerful Jedi in galactic history, Windu is likely more powerful. Marr lacks comparable accolades.

 

Finally 20 years later, we should expect his lightning to be even more powerful, killing Windu instantly not necessarily being beyond his capabilities.

vs. Reborn Palpatine

After being reborn in a new clone body, and exploring more deeply into the dark side of the Force, Palpatine is described as having grown even more powerful:

"You've grown very strong in the Force since we last met… But then, so have I!"

 

--Taken from Dark Empire

 

“Soon he was ready to strike. Fully healed and in greater control of the Dark Side than ever, he finally acted to end the Mutiny.”

 

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook

 

Resurrected in a youthful clone body, Palpatine does not reveal himself immediately. Studying the dark side of the Force to become more powerful…

 

--Taken from The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded

It goes without saying he’d be able to kill Windu instantly, however it’s also likely that this would not represent the full extent of his capabilities, surpassing Valkorion’s feat of killing an inferior Force user and then some.

2. Valkorion rendered Arcann unconscious with a blast of Force Lightning

 

 

One important thing to note is that Valkorion does not choose to dispatch Arcann instantly, instead deflecting his attacks until Arcann lowers his guard/lightsaber. The idea that he chose to simply to verbally spar with him seems unlikely. Especially considering that it is this delay that allows the Outlander to kill him from behind.

 

Far more likely was that Valkorion was waiting for that opening, as he was incapable of overwhelming Arcann’s lightsaber defences with a single attack, or would at the very least have been met with resistance.

 

vs. ROTS/ROTJ Palpatine

So what does that mean? It means Force-sensitives of Arcann’s calibre (e.g. approaching Vader/Starkiller tier) can very likely deflect Valkorion’s lightning. And yet Palpatine was able to disarm Master Yoda with a single blast:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DI8kkR9G0Q&t=3m29s

 

The most powerful Jedi in galactic history at this point, and considerably stronger in the Force than Arcann. I’d challenge Valkorion to do the same.

 

Now as for the feat proper, ROTS Palpatine matches it comfortably, incapacitating Master Yoda for a short period with an instant attack:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DI8kkR9G0Q&t=0m24s

 

Was Yoda caught off guard? Yes. But Arcann was caught off-guard as well, his lightsaber was dropped and therefore unable to use tutaminis. Noting that Valkorion unleashes a massive explosion of energy to accomplish a feat that ROTS Palpatine does better with a far more stayed display of power.

 

And of course as before, this is 20 years before his prime in ROTJ.

 

It’s also worth mentioning when Yoda is subject to a dark side induced hallucination, ROTS Sidious is demonstrated to easily dominate and incapacitate Anakin:

 

 

With Anakin, a comparable Force user to Arcann, staying unconscious indefinitely. However this remains a hallucination, and therefore not totally accurate.

vs. Reborn Palpatine

Once again, DE Palpatine is more powerful, and capable of even more. He was also able to disarm Luke Skywalker with a blast of Force lightning, no opening required:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4293483-7060521118-19945.jpg

 

Luke at this point being more powerful than Vader, superior to Arcann and only capable of defeating Palpatine with the aid of his sisters Force harmony ability.

3. Valkorion was capable of unleashing a wave of dark side energy, which destroyed every enemy in its path.

 

 

It’s important to note that this feat was performed by Valkorion channelling his power through the Outlander i.e. an inferior vessel presumably incapable of realising his full power. This therefore is not the full extent of his ability.

 

vs. ROTS/ROTJ Palpatine

Is this an impressive feat? Yes. But let’s be honest folks it doesn’t even match pre-prime Galen Marek in terms of potency, who on Raxus Prime was doing this:

Soon the foyer was full of the twitching, smoking bodies of the Temple’s hapless guardians. He began to tire, not from exertion but from the tedium of knocking down droid after droid, to no apparent end. There might have been thousands of them.

 

Deactivating his lightsaber, he took a deep breath. With one mighty exhalation of power, he blasted all of them—those in pieces and those approaching with needle-tipped fingers and vibrosaws upraised—out of the foyer doors. Then he blasted the rubbish piles after them. He kept pushing until a dark cloud soared out over Raxus Prime’s hideous landscape—an artificial hurricane full of droid golems.

 

When the foyer was clear, the apprentice straightened. He was no longer pushing with the Force, but the floor beneath him shook nonetheless. A heavy booming sound came from deeper in the Temple, and was getting louder. He had certainly attracted someone’s attention now.

 

--Taken from The Force Unleashed novelisation

With a single Force wave he dismantled thousands of junk golems, each of which were constructed from the Force and Force-resistant. Unlikely as resistant as a Zakuul Knight but there were thousands of them, and he completely destroyed them.

 

In his prime incarnation, Starkiller was capable of even more:

He sought strength from within himself, and pushed outward with all his might. Clones went flying. The empty tubes from which they had emerged shattered into millions of pieces. Platforms buckled and fell with reverberant crashes. The interior of the cloning tower rang as though struck with a giant hammer. Every muscle in his body shook with the effort of it.

 

The echoes faded, and he felt a peculiar kind of quiet descend.

 

The air was misted red, and every surface was slick with blood. He tasted it on his tongue and smelled it in his nose. His blood. A veritable ocean of it.

 

He maintained a defensive pose, breathing rhythmically and deeply, regaining his strength. The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being. He felt simultaneously cleansed and poisoned.

 

Nothing moved. Slowly, incredulously, he began to believe that it was over.

 

They were all dead. He had destroyed every last one of them. He was the only one left-of the many Darth Vader had created to do his bidding.

 

--Taken from The Force Unleashed II novelisation

Starkiller reduced his clones to a blood red mist, presumably by splattering their entrails in all directions. Noting that these clones were trained and powerful, certainly comparable if not superior to a Zakuul Knight.

 

The point being? That despite all this power he was still no match for Sidious:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4289306-4662437385-34628.png

 

We can only speculate what Palpatine is capable of, but I’d expect craters, ashes and a dead Beniko at the very least. In fact Palpatine mused that with a thought he could tear apart the Imperial Palace - the largest building on Coruscant:

Fury boiled his blood at the thought of waiting any longer. The rage called for release, and the Emperor knew that with a thought he could destroy his opulent office. He could crack the building’s foundation, rain rubble on the heads of those unlucky beings trapped within. He could, with the full power of his anger, unleash a fireball of death.

 

--Taken from Rebel Force: Target

Now again yes we have not seen the full extent of Valkorion’s power, but the fact remains this feat doesn’t come close to what Palpatine should be capable of.

vs. Reborn Palpatine

 

Must it really be explained?

 

Let’s just say DE Palpatine would have to be careful not to rip a whole in the space-time continuum. GG.

 

4. Valkorion could unleashed a Force lightning storm that overwhelmed Arcann and killed the crew of passing ships.

 

 

Again note that Valkorion is channelling his power through the Outlander, who shouldn’t be capable of realising his full power. Indeed we actually see the Outlander almost die from the experience, and Arcann describes him as weaker:

 

 

So this is not the full extent of his power.

 

Have Palpatine’s lightning streams ever been depicted on such a scale? No. But don’t assume that size = power. This attack is obviously potent, but in many ways it’s all smoke and no fire. First off it’s counter-intuitive for Valkorion to use an AOE attack on one target, essentially sending half the released energy out the window.

 

Far better to direct and concentrate that energy, and indeed the fact that Arcann held out for so long, and described his power as weaker, indicates it inferior to the concentrated burst that knocked him unconscious in Chapter 1.

 

Instead it would appear the Outlander is incapable of fully controlling and directing Valkorion’s power, hence why it’s emitted in a chaotic explosion of energy. This doesn’t make it any less impressive, but the point is it’s not comparable to a standard stream of Force lightning, but something akin to a Force storm.

 

vs. ROTS/ROTJ Palpatine

Bearing that in mind, would Palpatine be capable of this? Absolutely. By the time of ROTJ Palpatine had learned how to conjure Force storms with a mere thought:

Using this knowledge, I can unleash the dark side energies that are all around us, even to shatter the fabric of space itself. In this way, I have created storms.

 

Through a simple act of Will, I can generate Force Storms, energy storms that are vastly destructive and virtually unstoppable. Although triggering such storms requires merely thought and inclination, I admit I am not yet able to completely control the phenomenon. Among my goals is to perfect this control.

 

--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

Palpatine was at this point incapable of completely controlling them, but considering the Force storm could “swallow whole fleets of spaceships or tear the surfaces off worlds” as well as shatter the fabric of space-time, even partial control over such a power thoroughly surpasses the ability to project a storm across a few hundred meters, that could kill the crew of passing ships.

 

If he can trigger a Force storm with an inclination? This would be an afterthought.

 

In terms of Palpatine’s ability to overwhelm Arcann’s Force barrier, naturally this is well within his abilities, given he was almost able to overwhelm Master Yoda:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DI8kkR9G0Q&t=3m36s

 

So overall Palpatine thoroughly matches and surpasses Valkorion.

vs. Reborn Palpatine

Upon being reborn and furthering his study into the dark side, Palpatine was capable of fully controlling the Force storms he conjured:

Vast energy storms that connect wildly disparate spots across the galaxy, hyperspace wormholes are unpredictable and devastating. It was to the Rebel Alliance's detriment that Emperor Palpatine was able to not only control these storms, but to create them.

 

--Taken from Handbook Volume 3: Dark Empire

On Byss he was capable of dispatching multiple storms at once across the galaxy, and above Da Soocha conjured a Force storm that consume the Eclipse:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4293511-8466340758-19945.jpg

 

The most powerful capital ship the Empire had ever built with presumably superior shielding to the Executor, the one that shrugged off the hyperspace collision of three SDs.

 

In fact Palpatine’s Force storms had the power to kill worlds:

The Reborn Emperor used this at Da Soocha. It has the power to kill worlds.

 

--Luke Skywalker in The Jedi Path

It goes without saying that Valkorion’s Force storm doesn’t come close to what Reborn Palpatine was capable of, and that such a power would annihilate Arcann.

Altogether ROTS/ROTJ Palpatine capably matches what Valkorion has achieved in terms of Alter, and in some respects surpasses him, DE Palpatine in this manner, surpasses Valkorion in essentially every respect.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Beniboybling

[cs_zoltan]

I guess overall Yoda > Valky still stands. Right?

[Beniboybling]

I guess overall Yoda > Valky still stands. Right?

 

I would however petition for Valkorion above Plagueis.

[PadsterPwns]

I guess overall Yoda > Valky still stands. Right?

 

I'd agree to that, most Force feats we've seen from Yoda are post-prime and weakened yet they're still within RotS Sidious range and from Beni's comparison above (I'd consider it an almost flawless comparison) it stands that RotS Sidious is still more powerful than Valky.

[PadsterPwns]

 

I would however petition for Valkorion above Plagueis.

 

I'd honestly favour Plagueis however I may be bias so I'll likely wait until that discussion happens, do more research and maybe argue in the good Darth's favour if I still feel I have reason to believe my gut feeling.

[cs_zoltan]

I would however petition for Valkorion above Plagueis.

 

That's reasonable, although I'd love to see Legend's and Ant's reaction if Plagueis would turn out to be better.

[Beniboybling]

I'd honestly favour Plagueis however I may be bias so I'll likely wait until that discussion happens, do more research and maybe argue in the good Darth's favour if I still feel I have reason to believe my gut feeling.

I would disagree with such an assessment personally.