The REAL Most Powerful Force Users - Rebooted

[cs_zoltan]

However Windu was not killed instantly, and was vulnerable no less.

 

Vulnerable? If you are refering to the missing hand, it was heavily implied that Sidious didn't require that. Mace was overwhelmed by Sidious lightning through Vaapad, a bit more time and he would've been a goner. And that's when Sidious was throwing the fight.

Edited October 29, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[PadsterPwns]

Fair point about Yoda, I have forgotten that.

 

However Windu was not killed instantly, and was vulnerable no less.

 

Also when Valkorion knocked out Arcann that was in Chapter 1, 5 years later and Arcann blocked his Force Storm, so I think it's fair to say that this was a pre-prime Arcann.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Well, they're just trying to firmly establish their point that Vitiorion or Valkiate or whatever is the strongest Sith before Sidious ever and that his children are naturally super special awesome. Not considering that you don't have to go this over the top to establish that, and not realising that established OP characters Luke/Sidious/Yoda never went quite this flashy (in something visually represented and thus better for the masses).

Ahem:

 

 

Valkorion is not a Sith. He pretended to be one for a long time but it was just a guise. Even his Sith followers began to suspect his motives and conspired against him. And his cover was fully blown when he attacked Ziost.

 

Edited October 29, 2015 by S_W_LeGenD

[PadsterPwns]

Ahem:

 

 

Valkorion is not a Sith.

 

So far it seems he is Vitiate and Vitiate was a Sith so really he should still be included in that accolade meaning (according to the G-canon accolade) RotS Sidious > Valkorion.

[S_W_LeGenD]

So far it seems he is Vitiate and Vitiate was a Sith so really he should still be included in that accolade meaning (according to the G-canon accolade) RotS Sidious > Valkorion.

There is no G-canon now. We have Canon and Legends. That's it.

 

Lord Vitiate is just a title; it is meaningless. Valkorion is his true identity. He created two Empires during the course of history: Sith and Zakuul. He wanted to see which doctrine was best and his Zakuul experiment proved to be more successful. Valkorion felt that Sith dogma is flawed and he even declared his Sith Empire a failed experiment.

 

 

If you play as a Sith Outlander, Valkorion taunts you and asserts that you should stop being a Sith.

 

Edited October 29, 2015 by S_W_LeGenD

[PadsterPwns]

There is no G-canon now. We have Canon and Legends. That's it.

 

Lord Vitiate is just a title; it is meaningless. Valkorion is his true identity. He created two Empires during the course of history: Sith and Zakuul. He wanted to see which doctrine was best and his Zakuul experiment proved to be more successful. Valkorion felt that Sith dogma is flawed and he even declared his Sith Empire a failed experiment.

 

 

If you play as a Sith Outlander, Valkorion taunts you and asserts that you should stop being a Sith.

 

Even without the statement being G-canon there are still many statements that declare Sidious as the most powerful Sith of all time. As far as who as more powerful between RotS Sidious and Valkorion I think the former is but that's what we're debating anyway. Just quickly asking, I thought the same canon priority system applied to Legends? Also keep in mind that Valkorion might not be his name and just another title.

Edited October 29, 2015 by PadsterPwns

[cs_zoltan]

Doesn't really matter if Valky is Sith or not.

 

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.

— Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

 

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.

— The Complete Visual Dictionary

 

Accolades wise RotS Sidious have Valky beaten, but we are looking at their feats now.

Edited October 29, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[PadsterPwns]

Accolades wise RotS Sidious have Valky beaten, but we are looking at their feats now.

 

Exactly, that's why we should be looking at accolades.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Vulnerable? If you are refering to the missing hand, it was heavily implied that Sidious didn't require that. Mace was overwhelmed by Sidious lightning through Vaapad, a bit more time and he would've been a goner. And that's when Sidious was throwing the fight.

You should check more sources:

 

 

Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

 

Palpatine killed Master Windu's companions and battled the Jedi Master, who soon gained the upper hand. Just as Windu seemed ready to slay Palpatine, Anakin Skywalker intervened and cut off Windu's lightsaber hand. This gave Palpatine the opportunity to blast Windu with Force Lightning, sending him out to his death.

 

 

The novel explains fights from the perspective of characters who happen to be biased and/or make assumptions just like real people.

 

The (canon) movie itself gives the impression that Mace Windu got the upperhand and Palpatine was on his knees. Anakin Skywalker's intervention turned the tide of this confrontation in favor of Palpatine. Without Anakin's involvement, the outcome is debatable. Yes, I am fully aware of the faking arc; it indicates that Palpatine wasn't exhausted at that point. However, it doesn't confirms that Palpatine would have won.

Edited October 29, 2015 by S_W_LeGenD

[PadsterPwns]

You should check more sources:

 

 

Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

 

Palpatine killed Master Windu's companions and battled the Jedi Master, who soon gained the upper hand. Just as Windu seemed ready to slay Palpatine, Anakin Skywalker intervened and cut off Windu's lightsaber hand. This gave Palpatine the opportunity to blast Windu with Force Lightning, sending him out to his death.

 

 

The novel explains fights from the perspective of characters who happen to be biased and/or make assumptions just like real people.

 

The (canon) movie itself gives the impression that Mace Windu got the upperhand and Palpatine was on his knees. Anakin Skywalker's intervention turned the tide of this confrontation in favor of Palpatine. Without Anakin's involvement, the outcome is debatable. Yes, I am fully aware of the faking arc; it indicates that Palpatine wasn't exhausted at that point. However, it doesn't confirms that Palpatine would have won.

 

Then if you read the novel you would know that Mace was going to die either way at the Lightning section, his blade was bending back towards his face and he was losing his grip on his hilt, both caused by Sidious' lightning beginning to overwhelm him. Sidious would have won.

Edited October 29, 2015 by PadsterPwns

[Beniboybling]

You should check more sources:

 

 

Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

 

Palpatine killed Master Windu's companions and battled the Jedi Master, who soon gained the upper hand. Just as Windu seemed ready to slay Palpatine, Anakin Skywalker intervened and cut off Windu's lightsaber hand. This gave Palpatine the opportunity to blast Windu with Force Lightning, sending him out to his death.

 

 

The novel explains fights from the perspective of characters who happen to be biased and/or make assumptions just like real people.

 

The (canon) movie itself gives the impression that Mace Windu got the upperhand and Palpatine was on his knees. Anakin Skywalker's intervention turned the tide of this confrontation in favor of Palpatine. Without Anakin's involvement, the outcome is debatable. Yes, I am fully aware of the faking arc; it indicates that Palpatine wasn't exhausted at that point. However, it doesn't confirms that Palpatine would have won.

The novel is written from a third-person objective perspective, not the perspective of the characters, and the author objectively states that Mace was being overwhelmed, and was yes, about to be defeated.

Now Anakin was at Mace's shoulder. Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

 

Palpatine's eyes glowed with power, casting a yellow glare that burned back the rain from around them. "He is a traitor, Anakin. Destroy him."

 

"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade…

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith novelisation

Not that Mace would be capable of making biased assumptions as to his own capabilities. That said your citing selectively from the source, as the Ultimate Star Wars also says:

 

Mace seems to be winning until Anakin suddenly intervenes and cuts off the Jedi Master's hand.

 

i.e. we are given the impression that Windu is winning, but no source confirms that impression as fact.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Beniboybling

[S_W_LeGenD]

The novel is written from a third-person objective perspective, not the perspective of the characters, and the author objectively states that Mace was being overwhelmed, and was yes, about to be defeated.

Now Anakin was at Mace's shoulder. Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

 

Palpatine's eyes glowed with power, casting a yellow glare that burned back the rain from around them. "He is a traitor, Anakin. Destroy him."

 

"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade…

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith novelisation

Not that Mace would be capable of making biased assumptions as to his own capabilities. That said your citing selectively from the source, as the Ultimate Star Wars also says:

 

Mace seems to be winning until Anakin suddenly intervenes and cuts off the Jedi Master's hand.

 

i.e. we are given the impression that Windu is winning, but no source confirms that impression as fact.

Confrontations in this novel do not represent third person omniscient perspective but character's perspective. Here: http://scifi.about.com/od/starwarsbooks/fr/SWAR_ep3-novelization.htm

 

Mace appears to be winning to Anakin Skywalker who was watching the fight.

Edited October 29, 2015 by S_W_LeGenD

[Beniboybling]

Confrontations in this novel do not represent third person omniscient perspective but character's perspective. Here: http://scifi.about.com/od/starwarsbooks/fr/SWAR_ep3-novelization.htm[/url

Fair enough, but the third person still suggests a level of objectivity.

Mace appears to be winning to Anakin Skywalker who was watching the fight.

Sorry, what was it you said again?

 

The novel explains fights from the perspective of characters who happen to be biased and/or make assumptions just like real people.

 

Oh yeah, and in this instance its actually true. Anakin Skywalker did not know what was going on, he was not participating in the fight, and in fact Palpatine actively tries to convince Anakin that he is losing. Obviously Anakin is not a reliable source in this engagement, he is making biased assumptions. Windu, who knows his own strength, is not.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Beniboybling

[cs_zoltan]

You should check more sources:

 

 

Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

 

Palpatine killed Master Windu's companions and battled the Jedi Master, who soon gained the upper hand. Just as Windu seemed ready to slay Palpatine, Anakin Skywalker intervened and cut off Windu's lightsaber hand. This gave Palpatine the opportunity to blast Windu with Force Lightning, sending him out to his death.

 

 

The novel explains fights from the perspective of characters who happen to be biased and/or make assumptions just like real people.

 

The (canon) movie itself gives the impression that Mace Windu got the upperhand and Palpatine was on his knees. Anakin Skywalker's intervention turned the tide of this confrontation in favor of Palpatine. Without Anakin's involvement, the outcome is debatable. Yes, I am fully aware of the faking arc; it indicates that Palpatine wasn't exhausted at that point. However, it doesn't confirms that Palpatine would have won.

 

As one of the few educated Mace wankers: "If only..."

[S_W_LeGenD]

Doesn't really matter if Valky is Sith or not.

 

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.

— Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Palpatine > The Son?

 

This accolade can also be interpreted as being era-specific. Yoda and Palpatine were the most powerful practitioners of the Light and Dark respectively in the galaxy at that time.

 

Sometimes, we need to focus on stuff from (real-world) perspective. Darth Sidious have been promoted as most powerful among practitioners of the Dark Side in sources that have been published prior to introduction of some other super-strong characters such as Valkorion, Soa, The Son and Abeloth. Afterwards, I noticed that Darth Sidious's promotion came to a halt. For example: Star Wars: The Essential Reader's Companion, a (real-world) perspective source contains some information about the aforementioned characters (with exception of Soa) and it hyped no one. Therefore, these type of arguments are largely dependent upon the perspective.

 

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.

— The Complete Visual Dictionary

 

Accolades wise RotS Sidious have Valky beaten, but we are looking at their feats now.

In this context, Palpatine beats everybody if we take his entire promotional history at face value. This accolade is also Sith-specific.

 

However, there is one solution for these type of complications; TIER based ranking.

Edited October 29, 2015 by S_W_LeGenD

[cs_zoltan]

Palpatine > The Son?

 

This accolade can also be interpreted as being era-specific. Yoda and Palpatine were the most powerful practitioners of the Light and Dark respectively in the galaxy at that time.

 

Sometimes, we need to focus on stuff from (real-world) perspective. Darth Sidious have been promoted as most powerful among practitioners of the Dark Side in sources that have been published prior to introduction of some other super-strong characters such as Valkorion, Soa, The Son and Abeloth. Afterwards, I noticed that Darth Sidious's promotion came to a halt. For example: Star Wars: The Essential Reader's Companion, a (real-world) perspective source contains some information about the aforementioned characters (with exception of Soa) and it hyped no one. Therefore, these type of arguments are largely dependent upon the perspective.

 

 

In this context, Palpatine beats everybody if we take his entire promotional history at face value. This accolade is also Sith-specific.

 

However, there is one solution for these type of complications; TIER based ranking.

 

According to Leland Chee the date of a canon source is irrelevant when there is a contradiction. Anyway I won't get into a debate of RotS Sidious' accolades validity. Let their feats decide. In which case I still see RotS Sidious Superior.

 

Control

 

Beni said that because Valky said he no longer needs Voices, Hands, and Children his surivival was not dependant on the Outlander. I beg to differ. People with the ego are prone to exaggerate. Remember when Dooku claimed he is more powerful than Yoda? Well Valky doesn't lack ego either. So I wouldn't take his claim at face value.

 

His situation is very similar to that of RotJ Sidious. They both died with two powerful force users nearby. But there were differences.

 

• Sidious was thrown down a shaft, making the distance farther than in case of Valky.
  
• At the death of Sidious the people present were a dying, half human half cyborg Vader, and a very capable Vader level Luke. In case of Valky, he had a knocked out Outlander and a knocked out Arcann. Making ET a lot easier.
  
• Valky at the start of chapter V confirmed that he and the Outlander are indivisible, suggesting that he needed him/her as an anchor.
  

 

Sense

 

Valky still doesn't have any notable sense feats afaik, correct me if I'm wrong. Palpy takes this handily.

 

Alter

 

Lightning to lightning I think Sidi takes this. He knocked out Yoda and killed Windu. No matter the circumstances of the later it's far more impressive than knocking out a pre-prime Arcann and killing a post-prime Marr.

 

This is obviously just a rudimentary rundown, but even if Valky takes control due to him shrugging off death, Palply still takes this overall.

 

Hence Yoda > Valky. I'm willing to concede on Valky > Plagueis though.

[PadsterPwns]

According to Leland Chee the date of a canon source is irrelevant when there is a contradiction. Anyway I won't get into a debate of RotS Sidious' accolades validity. Let their feats decide. In which case I still see RotS Sidious Superior.

 

Control

 

Beni said that because Valky said he no longer needs Voices, Hands, and Children his surivival was not dependant on the Outlander. I beg to differ. People with the ego are prone to exaggerate. Remember when Dooku claimed he is more powerful than Yoda? Well Valky doesn't lack ego either. So I wouldn't take his claim at face value.

 

His situation is very similar to that of RotJ Sidious. They both died with two powerful force users nearby. But there were differences.

 

• Sidious was thrown down a shaft, making the distance farther than in case of Valky.
  
• At the death of Sidious the people present were a dying, half human half cyborg Vader, and a very capable Vader level Luke. In case of Valky, he had a knocked out Outlander and a knocked out Arcann. Making ET a lot easier.
  
• Valky at the start of chapter V confirmed that he and the Outlander are indivisible, suggesting that he needed him/her as an anchor.
  

 

Sense

 

Valky still doesn't have any notable sense feats afaik, correct me if I'm wrong. Palpy takes this handily.

 

Alter

 

Lightning to lightning I think Sidi takes this. He knocked out Yoda and killed Windu. No matter the circumstances of the later it's far more impressive than knocking out a pre-prime Arcann and killing a post-prime Marr.

 

This is obviously just a rudimentary rundown, but even if Valky takes control due to him shrugging off death, Palply still takes this overall.

 

Hence Yoda > Valky. I'm willing to concede on Valky > Plagueis though.

 

I'm not as good as debating as Zoltan but this sums up my thoughts exactly.

[tunewalker]

Some one said Tier based rankings and honestly I usuallylike those better for the whole cross era thing being hard to call, in this case the Top Tiers would be probably Luke to Talzin, WIth High tier being people like Krayt To... Kyp (by the thought proccess of these boards not by where I put Kyp as the "bottom" of high tier, but still ultimately he is High tier so its not like it matters.) Then Mid being Maybe, Obi-wan down to Ahsoka, and Low basically being any one bellow that. Edited October 29, 2015 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

I'm constructing a comparison as I go through the game, but honestly I find myself aligning with Zoltan at least in regards to Alter. However I'm still not sure on the facts concerning Control.

 

Although for reasons I shall latter disclose I don't believe its any longer relevant.

[Beniboybling]

Some one said Tier based rankings and honestly I usuallylike those better for the whole cross era thing being hard to call, in this case the Top Tiers would be probably Luke to Talzin, WIth High tier being people like Krayt To... Kyp (by the thought proccess of these boards not by where I put Kyp as the "bottom" of high tier, but still ultimately he is High tier so its not like it matters.) Then Mid being Maybe, Obi-wan down to Ahsoka, and Low basically being any one bellow that.

I plan on blending the current ranking system with a tier based system i.e. divide the list into sections where will will acknowledge a degree of changeability.

 

More on that later however once we've addressed Valkorion.

[PadsterPwns]

More on that later however once we've addressed Valkorion.

 

I'm guessing you'll just assess Valkorion's feats as they happen each month then? Also I'm unlikely to post in here again (or at least nowhere near as much) as I'm not to good in threads like this, I'm better in versus threads honestly.

[cs_zoltan]

I'm guessing you'll just assess Valkorion's feats as they happen each month then? Also I'm unlikely to post in here again (or at least nowhere near as much) as I'm not to good in threads like this, I'm better in versus threads honestly.

 

Awwww

 

You'd get better.

[PadsterPwns]

Awwww

 

You'd get better.

 

Thanks, I will in time, like I said I may post just not as much. This is just a setback.

[Beniboybling]

Thanks, I will in time, like I said I may post just not as much. This is just a setback.

[PadsterPwns]

 

I'll still read through all the arguments posted and will still post a bit but right now it's not really up to standard, so I'll improve slowly through some contribution on opportunities I think I can debate on (e.g. Valky vs Sids on Lightning).