The REAL Most Powerful Force Users - Rebooted

[Darkelefantos]

Well, they're just trying to firmly establish their point that Vitiorion or Valkiate or whatever is the strongest Sith before Sidious ever and that his children are naturally super special awesome. Not considering that you don't have to go this over the top to establish that, and not realising that established OP characters Luke/Sidious/Yoda never went quite this flashy (in something visually represented and thus better for the masses).

[Rhyltran]

Galen stopped the lightsaber with TK, Valky stopped the lightsaber with TK. Looks the same to me.

 

If you want to underplay it all the power to you. No matter how much you hate how ridiculous of a character they are it is what it is. I'm just being objective about the situation.

 

I believe Beni is of my understanding regarding Valkorion for the most part. Earlier in this thread he acknowledged Valkorion might be above ROTS Sidious. This would put him above Yoda. This doesn't mean he's ROTJ Sidious/DE Sidious.

 

As Sidious kept growing in power.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Rhyltran

[cs_zoltan]

If you want to underplay it all the power to you. No matter how much you hate how ridiculous of a character they are it is what it is. I'm just being objective about the situation.

 

It's not underplaying when I use facts.

 

1. Barrier = TK.
   
2. Galen used TK to stop a lightsaber strike.
   
3. Valky used TK to stop numerous lightsaber strikes.
   
4. The powergap between Valky and Arcann is infinitely bigger than between pre-prime Galen and Shaak Ti.
   
5. Even the output of a lightsaber strike is nothing incredible. I doubt Arcann's strike is comparable to the outer layer of a star + a million thermal detonators.
   

 

You are always repeating yourself without even addressing my points. You still didn't acknowledge that Barrier = TK for example.

[cs_zoltan]

Being better than RotS Palpy doesn't mean you are better than Yoda.

[Rhyltran]

It's not underplaying when I use facts.

 

1. Barrier = TK.
   
2. Galen used TK to stop a lightsaber strike.
   
3. Valky used TK to stop numerous lightsaber strikes.
   
4. The powergap between Valky and Arcann is infinitely bigger than between pre-prime Galen and Shaak Ti.
   
5. Even the output of a lightsaber strike is nothing incredible. I doubt Arcann's strike is comparable to the outer layer of a star + a million thermal detonators.
   

 

You are always repeating yourself without even addressing my points. You still didn't acknowledge that Barrier = TK for example.

 

There's different types of barriers. There's telekinetic barriers which is more using kinetic force which typically have no visual representation as it's raw "power of the mind." to prevent things from coming at you as you psychically push things away.

 

Galen used his mind to psychically stop a lightsaber strike via telekinetic power much in the same way Yoda did to Ventress and Nox did to Thanaton.

 

Valky created a technique that creates a blue force field. In this he's not pushing something back with his mind. In this he's creating energy that can block solid strikes levied against it. While it functions similarly to a telekinetic push it requires far less strain. It acts more like a personal energy shield would than something that is telekinetic. The problem with your assessment is that you believe since it's a barrier it must be a telekinetic one. I am arguing that it isn't and while it may be similar in the end result it's still a different thing.

 

I am arguing the power gap doesn't matter. Telekinesis requires your mind to be stronger than your opponents. You are matching force with force. Telekinesis is what Jedi use to lift rocks, protect themself from debris, and more. If something is too heavy for them to telekinetic-ally effect they'll be overpowered. Valkorion is not reaching out with his mind. He's creating a shield. One with the visual indicator of a blue light that only appears when it is struck. Much like an energy shield. It functions more like a force field than it does a telekinetic barrier.

[cs_zoltan]

Yeah if you would not invent new powers without evidence that'd be great.

[Rhyltran]

Yeah if you would not invent new powers without evidence that'd be great.

 

I'm not. I showed you visual indication it's different. I gave the nox and thanaton example. The Yoda and Ventress example. These appear and function visibly different than Valkorion's technique. You argued "graphical presentation." except I pointed out the engine was able to show visual energy shields and other "similar" effects. So graphical presentation doesn't fly. That leaves us with it being different.

[cs_zoltan]

I'm not. I showed you visual indication it's different. I gave the nox and thanaton example. The Yoda and Ventress example. These appear and function visibly different than Valkorion's technique. You argued "graphical presentation." except I pointed out the engine was able to show visual energy shields and other "similar" effects. So graphical presentation doesn't fly. That leaves us with it being different.

 

You were mostly talking out of your ***, excuse my tone. Being visually different doesn't make it some super impressive never seen before pinnacle of it's category force power. What you said in that post it pure speculation based on a visaul presentation. It means literally nothing.

 

Sidious' lightning is blue, Nox's purple, Jaina's is black, the Son's is red, Talzin's is green, Plo's yellow. Yet they are all the same.

 

Valky used TK, that's all there is to it.

[Rhyltran]

You were mostly talking out of your ***, excuse my tone. Being visually different doesn't make it some super impressive never seen before pinnacle of it's category force power. What you said in that post it pure speculation based on a visaul presentation. It means literally nothing.

 

Sidious' lightning is blue, Nox's purple, Jaina's is black, the Son's is red, Talzin's is green, Plo's yellow. Yet they are all the same.

 

Valky used TK, that's all there is to it.

 

Except he didn't. In the end all of them look the same aside from color. They're all lightning. They all look like lightning. They are all electricity based. Valkorion's looks and appears very different from a telekinetic move. It doesn't look like TK. So it probably isn't. Plus it shows up and looks differently than what we've seen before in the same game. So you can't even make the claim that this is a different game and it's their interpretation of it. They merely wanted Valkorion to have a technique that replaces his need to use a lightsaber. So they gave him one.

 

I have provided evidence based on it looking differently than what we've seen before in the same game. This is my evidence. You argue "That's not proof it might be the same and it might mean nothing." Can you prove it's the same and means nothing?

 

Since I have given evidence you need to refute my claim or it's you who are speculating. So far what we have is..

 

I provided evidence that it's different. You're saying it's not different because you said so. You need something more concrete or I'm winning this debate.

 

Anyway I'll have to continue this later. I got work.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Rhyltran

[cs_zoltan]

I have provided evidence based on it looking differently than what we've seen before in the same game. This is my evidence. You argue "That's not proof it might be the same and it might mean nothing." Can you prove it's the same and means nothing?

 

Hell yeah I can:

 

PS: If you think whatever Valky did is more impressive than stopping a saber with TK, then that would mean it's more demanding since the end result is the same. Which begs the question, if it's more demanding why wouldn't Valky use basic TK?

[cs_zoltan]

Since I have given evidence you need to refute my claim or it's you who are speculating. So far what we have is..

 

I provided evidence that it's different. You're saying it's not different because you said so. You need something more concrete or I'm winning this debate.

 

Anyway I'll have to continue this later. I got work.

 

No, what you did is first saying it's barrier. When I pointed out that barrier is TK, you said it's not even barrier it's some mega cool **** that nobody ever did before, all based on visuals. Which ironically is not even unique.

Edited October 29, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[PadsterPwns]

Except he didn't. In the end all of them look the same aside from color. They're all lightning. They all look like lightning. They are all electricity based. Valkorion's looks and appears very different from a telekinetic move. It doesn't look like TK. So it probably isn't. Plus it shows up and looks differently than what we've seen before in the same game. So you can't even make the claim that this is a different game and it's their interpretation of it. They merely wanted Valkorion to have a technique that replaces his need to use a lightsaber. So they gave him one.

 

I have provided evidence based on it looking differently than what we've seen before in the same game. This is my evidence. You argue "That's not proof it might be the same and it might mean nothing." Can you prove it's the same and means nothing?

 

To be fair the Barrier (I think it is a Barrier) that Valky did was sort of recreated by Arcann when he used Force Barrier to block the formers Force Storm, with Arcann's Barrier being golden. Honestly I don't know why we're debating the Barrier, while the ease in which he did it was impressive, it's not like RotS Yoda (post-prime and weakened btw) or RotS Sidious couldn't do it simply with TK, which a Barrier is a variant of.

[PadsterPwns]

No, what you did is saying "it looks different so it's better and more impressive"...

 

Like I said to Rhyltran, why are we debating this? Barrier is simply a variant of TK , so while the ease of which he did it is impressive, I'm certain RotS Yoda (post-prime and weakened) and RotS Sidious could replicate it just as easily with TK. Anyway I'm going for a bit, I'll continue later.

 

Edit: Didn't see what you posted Zoltan, sorry.

Edited October 29, 2015 by PadsterPwns

[cs_zoltan]

Like I said to Rhyltran, why are we debating this? Barrier is simply a variant of TK.

 

That's what I said pages ago, but Rhylt kept pushing.

[Rhyltran]

Hell yeah I can:

 

PS: If you think whatever Valky did is more impressive than stopping a saber with TK, then that would mean it's more demanding since the end result is the same. Which begs the question, if it's more demanding why wouldn't Valky use basic TK?

 

That wasn't the same thing. That was white lines to show something was deflected so we as the viewers could understand why she suddenly flew backwards. That's not the same as creating an energy shield. As the viewers in that scene if they were non-force sensitives wouldn't have seen anything take place at all. It's like a comic showing a yellow star followed by "Pow" so you know the blow was solid. We've seen how SWTOR handles telekinetics in the cut scenes. This wasn't it.

 

Except it isn't. See, you're stuck with this whole "It's more impressive." Stopping a saber with TK is an example of overpowering your opponent. You're psychically using your brain to push back the attack. You're matching the strength of your mind with either the strength of your opponent's mind or the object that is coming at you.

 

Valkorion's technique isn't matching anything with anyone. This is why I liken it to a forcefield. He's not "pushing back" the lightsaber. He's creating a shield. He's not pitting his mind up against the person bringing the lightsaber down. He's erecting his own forcefield. Doing something like this repeatedly usually would be draining but for him it's of no consequence. It doesn't effect him in the slightest. He can spam it, use it for each strike levied against him, and throw out massive arcs of lightning while not even breaking a sweat.

 

But seriously. I'll answer more when I get back. I'm late.

 

P.S. Before I go I want to say YES it is barrier. I called it barrier but it's not the same type we've seen before. It's being used in a different manner. In a more casual manner. Call it more refined. More precise. It doesn't matter. We haven't seen anyone casually use it like this. In the past TK barriers have always been used as a last resort. As an "Oh crap" button. Valkorion didn't use it in this manner. Valkorion could have been casually watching a movie while blocking Arcann's strikes. I liken it more to a shield due to the manner in which it's used. I'm trying to explain why it's different.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Rhyltran

[cs_zoltan]

That wasn't the same thing. That was white lines to show something was deflected so we as the viewers could understand why she suddenly flew backwards. That's not the same as creating an energy shield. As the viewers in that scene if they were non-force sensitives wouldn't have seen anything take place at all. It's like a comic showing a yellow star followed by "Pow" so you know the blow was solid. We've seen how SWTOR handles telekinetics in the cut scenes. This wasn't it.

 

Except it isn't. See, you're stuck with this whole "It's more impressive." Stopping a saber with TK is an example of overpowering your opponent. You're psychically using your brain to push back the attack. You're matching the strength of your mind with either the strength of your opponent's mind or the object that is coming at you.

 

Valkorion's technique isn't matching anything with anyone. This is why I liken it to a forcefield. He's not "pushing back" the lightsaber. He's creating a shield. He's not pitting his mind up against the person bringing the lightsaber down. He's erecting his own forcefield. Doing something like this repeatedly usually would be draining but for him it's of no consequence. It doesn't effect him in the slightest. He can spam it, use it for each strike levied against him, and throw out massive arcs of lightning while not even breaking a sweat.

 

But seriously. I'll answer more when I get back. I'm late.

 

Now you are just forcing the dots to connect. Believe what you want. I'm done.

[Beniboybling]

Interesting points, first off I feel Rhyltran is correct. Valkorion is projecting a Force barrier, not TK. To review the scene:

 

 

Notice how you can literary see the curve of the barrier as Arcann strikes it. Is it the same as the purple barrier we see projecting around the player in-game? No. But that is a game mechanic and hardly accurate therefore.

 

That and Valkorion is only projecting the barrier about the palm of his hand. Is there a precedence for Force barriers being invisible or near invisible until they are struck? Yes. For example:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/3915084-6724244778-32569.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4496029-darth+vader+004-012.jpg

 

Has TK ever been depicted visually manifest in this way? No. And for the record in order to block his attacks with TK, Valkorion would have had to create a counterforce to repel the blade, which would have looked like this:

 

 

Or alternatively he would have gripped the lightsaber like this:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHacOCI_zYI&t=0m25s

 

Notice the complete absence of a barrier of any kind. That's not because they couldn't afford to project one, it's because TK is invisible unless highly charged. So this is not the same as what Marek and other Force users have achieved. No offense guys but this is not rocket science, we know that TK is invisible.

 

Now is the projection of a Force barrier nonetheless a form of TK? Yes and no. On one hand yes, a Force barrier appears to be the tight packing of air particles into essentially a solid object, hence why they often appear invisible until struck by something that reveals its shape. But on the other hand we have seen Force barriers that appear to be manifestations of raw Force energy, for example the protection bubble Mother Talzin conjures about herself:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymQ8DZFejS4&t=0m20s

 

As a master of sorcery himself, it's possible that Valkorion's barrier was of a similar nature, appearing purple and misty. However the fact it is only visible when struck does suggest otherwise. And the purple colour could simply be the result of the particles being highly charged (we see similar attributes in

, although blue).

 

Either way, all TK is not created equal. Blocking a lightsaber by projecting a counter force, or physically gripping it does not necessarily require the same amount of power as projecting a shield of tightly compacted air particles. Most importantly, unlike TK, a Force barrier is vulnerable to being shattered i.e. enough kinetic/heat energy applied to cause the particles to break apart, so constant concentration would be required to keep them together.

 

Blocking a blade with TK however? This often takes the form of a single rather than continuous exertion of energy, such as when Vader and Marek deflected their opponents blade. It's instead far more comparable to Nox blocking Thanaton (I wouldn't say Yoda, as he actually penetrated her Force defenses), which was only made possible by the vast disparity between Nox's powers, and an exhausted beaten Thanaton.

 

That was a little long, but hopefully it clears up the confusion surrounding the subject.

[Rhyltran]

Interesting points, first off I feel Rhyltran is correct. Valkorion is projecting a Force barrier, not TK. To review the scene:

 

 

Notice how you can literary see the curve of the barrier as Arcann strikes it. Is it the same as the purple barrier we see projecting around the player in-game? No. But that is a game mechanic and hardly accurate therefore.

 

That and Valkorion is only projecting the barrier about the palm of his hand. Is there a precedence for Force barriers being invisible or near invisible until they are struck? Yes. For example:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/3915084-6724244778-32569.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4496029-darth+vader+004-012.jpg

 

Has TK ever been depicted visually manifest in this way? No. And for the record in order to block his attacks with TK, Valkorion would have had to create a counterforce to repel the blade, which would have looked like this:

 

 

Or alternatively he would have gripped the lightsaber like this:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHacOCI_zYI&t=0m25s

 

Notice the complete absence of a barrier of any kind. That's not because they couldn't afford to project one, it's because TK is invisible unless highly charged. So this is not the same as what Marek and other Force users have achieved. No offense guys but this is not rocket science, we know that TK is invisible.

 

Now is the projection of a Force barrier nonetheless a form of TK? Yes and no. On one hand yes, a Force barrier appears to be the tight packing of air particles into essentially a solid object, hence why they often appear invisible until struck by something that reveals its shape. But on the other hand we have seen Force barriers that appear to be manifestations of raw Force energy, for example the protection bubble Mother Talzin conjures about herself:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymQ8DZFejS4&t=0m20s

 

As a master of sorcery himself, it's possible that Valkorion's barrier was of a similar nature, appearing purple and misty. However the fact it is only visible when struck does suggest otherwise. And the purple colour could simply be the result of the particles being highly charged (we see similar attributes in

, although blue).

 

Either way, all TK is not created equal. Blocking a lightsaber by projecting a counter force, or physically gripping it does not necessarily require the same amount of power as projecting a shield of tightly compacted air particles. Most importantly, unlike TK, a Force barrier is vulnerable to being shattered i.e. enough kinetic/heat energy applied to cause the particles to break apart, so constant concentration would be required to keep them together.

 

Blocking a blade with TK however? This often takes the form of a single rather than continuous exertion of energy, such as when Vader and Marek deflected their opponents blade. It's instead far more comparable to Nox blocking Thanaton (I wouldn't say Yoda, as he actually penetrated her Force defenses), which was only made possible by the vast disparity between Nox's powers, and an exhausted beaten Thanaton.

 

That was a little long, but hopefully it clears up the confusion surrounding the subject.

 

As I finish putting on my shirt.. Beni take it away!

[Beniboybling]

Secondly I'd like to question why we are continuing to treat the Force lightning Valkorion channeled through the Outlander as the pinnacle of his abilities, when it is not, and he has far more impressive showings.

 

For example here Valkorion incapacitates Arcann with a single attack:

 

 

And prior to that kills Darth Marr with a single blast said lightining:

 

 

This represents the full extent of Valkorion's abilities, not what he achieves when in weakened spirit form.

[cs_zoltan]

snip

 

What of it? Are you suggesting that Arcann's lightsaber strikes are comparable to the outer layer of a star + thermal detonators? Or Sidious' and Dooku's lightning?

 

If not, I still don't see why I should care. Because those are thing Talzin and Starkiller barrier'd. A lightsaber would be a child's play. Just how it was a child's play for Valky.

Edited October 29, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[Beniboybling]

What of it? Are you suggesting that Arcann's lightsaber strikes are comparable to the outer layer of a star + thermal detonators? Or Sidious' and Dooku's lightning?

 

If not, I still don't see why I should care. Because those are thing Talzin and Starkiller barrier'd. A lightsaber would be a child's play. Just how it was a child's play for Valky.

That's a little different though, because those attacks are spread across a wide surface area, a far less effective method at shattering an object that concentrating the force of impact in a single spot.

 

Lets also not forget that a lightsaber is made from pure plasma, and can cut through practically anything if enough force is applied. Arcann has demonstrated a level of power comparable to Exar Kun in his prime, who as a Jedi was cutting through walls of Mandalorion iron.

 

I'd question whether Sidious lightning would even be capable of that, unless it was concentrated at a single point.

 

Altogether the heat energy produced by a lightsaber is more than comparable to the most powerful of Force lightning and indeed the heat of reentry, with durasteel hulls can shield against - which a lightsaber cuts through like butter.

 

Finally the ease of which Valkorion performs this feat, deflecting multiple strikes, while I would argue, building up a powerful burst of Force energy, suggests that this is far from the full extent of his capabilities, so it's very impressive.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Beniboybling

[cs_zoltan]

And those saber strikes were only a few seconds of contact. Starkiller protected himself from atmospheric re-entry where the heat was comparable to a star, and every drop of rain hit him with the force of a thermal detonator, this might've gone on for minutes. And he was multitasking.

Same with Talzin, I highly doubt that a lightsaber strike is comparable to Dooku and Sidious' combined Force Lightning. Unless you think that Shaak Ti and Satele could tank Sidious, I have my doubts. And that feat was like 20seconds or so. Yet again a lot longer than Valky's feat. So no, I don't find it impressive. At least not in this tier of force users. And it's definitely not something Yoda or RotS Sidi can't replicate.

 

PS: I doubt Arcann is anywhere Kun lvl, more like Windu tbh.

Edited October 29, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[cs_zoltan]

Secondly I'd like to question why we are continuing to treat the Force lightning Valkorion channeled through the Outlander as the pinnacle of his abilities, when it is not, and he has far more impressive showings.

 

For example here Valkorion incapacitates Arcann with a single attack:

 

 

And prior to that kills Darth Marr with a single blast said lightining:

 

 

This represents the full extent of Valkorion's abilities, not what he achieves when in weakened spirit form.

 

RotS Sidious knocked out Yoda (Yoda > Arcann), and killed Windu (Windu > Marr). A more impressive resume, if you ask me.

[Beniboybling]

The heat being comparable to the outer layers of a star was obvious hyperbole (as is the idea of rain striking with the force of a thermal detonator), as reentry simple isn't that hot, otherwise anything that attempted it would have been incinerated, including the ship Marek was in, before the ship was torn to shreds by the force of the rainfall.

 

21st century materials can contend with that level of heat intact, if we use the Mandalorian iron analogy as a lightsaber resistant substance (which Valkorion's barrier should be even stronger than), it would have survived it also.

 

I've already addressed Sidious & Dooku.

 

In regards to Shaak Ti, it only serves as prove of my point. Despite Grievous being a non-Force sensitive Shaak Ti's barrier was torn through almost instantly, her only saving face being the fact that the kinetic force of the attack threw her away, otherwise she would have been evicerated. And Satele used tutanimis, not a Force barrier.

[Beniboybling]

RotS Sidious knocked out Yoda (Yoda > Arcann), and killed Windu (Windu > Marr). A more impressive resume, if you ask me.

Fair point about Yoda, I have forgotten that.

 

However Windu was not killed instantly, and was vulnerable no less.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Beniboybling