The REAL Most Powerful Force Users - Rebooted

[MarcheseAMM]

I'm basically saying that Beni, Sel, and I will say who we think is more powerful, and if two others support it then we make the decision.

So this isn't a community voting, but rather you three making your own list? Pretty lame, tbh.

[Aurbere]

So this isn't a community voting, but rather you three making your own list? Pretty lame, tbh.

 

Five people have to agree, which is a good majority of people participating.

[Rhyltran]

So this isn't a community voting, but rather you three making your own list? Pretty lame, tbh.

 

People can also post their own evidence to try to sway the other five's opinion. I agree Yoda > Vitiate > Caedus.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Rhyltran

[tunewalker]

So far I agree Yoda is 3rd, The number 4/ 5 spot has yet to have my vote on anything yet.... thankfully... we arent talking about 4 or 5 yet.

[MarcheseAMM]

I managed to respond. Just a note, I probably won't be responding to any response until Friday, I merely wanted to get out my argument on why Vitiate should be above Yoda. Don't feel the urge to respond. I also tried to change my debating style up a little bit and I like how it looks, so hopefully you all like it too. Thanks for reading! Cheers!

To start off, Yoda's Force Valor is undoubtedly among the finest applications. Yoda is a wretched old thing that can barely walk. He even has to use a hovercraft from time to time. And yet, once he fuels himself with the Force his speed and strength easily eclipses the majority of individuals in the mythos. Indeed, Yoda's speed and strength was enough not to just disarm Sidious, but practically bowl him over too.

Force Valor is not something Revan has never shown proficiency in. He is able to augment his accuracy to complete perfection [1], and has shown to be able to augment his strength to be able to fend off two Terentatek [2] at once.

 

"Revan opened fire with his blasters, drawing on the Force to augment his accuracy. His first volley dropped an enemy soldier charging toward him; his second took out a sniper half hidden on a ridge over twenty meters away. But he knew the battle wouldn't be won by blasters alone."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan [1]

 

"Terentateks are undoubtedly one of the most vicious of all creatures steeped in the dark side, and they are doubly dangerous because of their unnatural resistance to Force powers."

―Terentatek Codex Entry (Star Wars: The Old Republic) [2]

 

"Because a single terentatek was a match for an entire squad of Jedi, the extermination of terentateks was the Order's highest priority in 3993, three years after the end of the Sith War."

―Star Wars: Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force [2]

 

"Few creatures in the galaxy are as deadly as the legendary terentatek. These beasts cut imposing figures; their hulking frames are covered in an array of spikes, and each is armed with tusks and claws that deliver lethal venom. Their prowess and hostility are well-known throughout the galaxy, but perhaps the creature’s most impressive quality is its hide, which is highly resistant to Force attacks. This exceptional defense, combined with its raw power and violent nature, makes the terentatek formidable even to teams of the most skilled warriors."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic Official Website [2]

 

Another example of great speed and strength was shown in his duel with Dooku on Vjun. Despite Dooku taking advantage of the powerful Dark energies on the planet, Yoda was able to outpace and outmuscle Dooku, forcing him to flee.

Revan's strength feat against the two Terentatek are obviously more impressive then outmuscling Dooku. That being said, Revan certainly has some speed feats under his belt, though admittedly not on the scale of Yoda. Scaling a 120 foot walkway twice, and then doing all the shenanigans he did with Vitiate in only "a few seconds" should definitely by considered a very impressive speed feat in the grand scheme on things. [3]

 

"It [his fight with the Sith Emperor] all happened in the space of only a few seconds."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan [3]

 

As far as endurance feats go, his aren't as impressive as, say, Plagueis or Vader, but he does have some decent feats in that regard. For example, though he was knocked unconscious when caught off guard by Sidious' Force lightning, the attack did not seem to affect him too much during their contest. He can also withstand lightsaber strikes, as he did against Count Dooku on Vjun.

 

Revan has far greater endurance and stamina feats. He was able to fight through constant waves of Dark Jedi for over "an hour," then go on to fight Bastila Shan numerous times, and Infinite Army, and Darth Malak many times. [4] In terms of endurance or pain resistance, just look at Revan resisting Vitiate's lightning [5], and him standing within one foot of an explosion yet suffered minimal injuries. [6] Also, he has shown extreme resistancey to physical torture. [7]

 

"The next hour is spent frantically blasting, swiping, and crushing countless Dark Jedi and Sith heavy weapons and elite troopers."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Prima Guide [4]

 

"A dozen bolts of purple lightning arched from the Emperor toward Revan...the Emperor was infinitely more powerful then Darth Nyriss had ever been. Revan's body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking tot he superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more into him. The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp. Almost too week to move, Revan managed to raise his head just in time to see the Emperor turn on the brave little astromech."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan [5]

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/3948404-5896127622-E3LIz.gif

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic [6]

 

"Interrogating the Jedi had resulted in nothing but frustration and dead ends. His will was strong, as was his command of the Force. Even drugged to the edge of unconsciousness he was able to draw on it to help him endure the pain and the relentless barrage of questions. But there was something else, as well. Nyriss wanted to know how he had escaped the dungeons of the citadel. She wanted to know about his relationship with the Emperor. She wanted to know why he had come to Nathema. On all those counts, Scourge had come up empty. Revan was resisting him... “We might be wasting our time,” he finally admitted. “His pain threshold is high, but we’re already at the limits of what a human can endure. If I press any harder, we risk killing him.” Scourge had seen it happen many times. Unskilled or overeager interrogators could easily push their subjects too far. In his mind this was the ultimate failure: you couldn’t get answers from a corpse. With difficult subjects you had to be patient. It might take multiple sessions over several days to get anything useful. But even knowing this, Scourge didn’t hold out much hope for his chances with Revan."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan [7]

 

"Now...this is odd. The test is over and you're both still alive. Well that's never happened before."

―Jorak Uln (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic) [7]

 

 

His sense abilities are also quite profound. He was able to easily enter the minds of other Jedi to read the thoughts and feelings, and even extend his reach across the galaxy to enter the minds of other Jedi and see what they see. He could also experience visions in the Force from time to time.

Not as impressive as Revan. Not only was Revan able to read the thoughts of others, but he was able to do it with such skill that he could predict the paths of entire duels, battles, and wars with it [8]. He reached a point in mastery where even the Echani were in literal awe over his sense prowess [9]. Yoda simply doesn't compare. Additionally, Revan was capable of reaching across the galaxy to try to sense the presence of Meetra Surik [10]. Revan experienced Force Visions many times, including but not limited to the arrival of Meetra Surik despite being hindered by drugs [11] and anticipating the Mandalorian threat [12]. A central theme of his personal novel was his great proficiency towards Force Visions. He also used his senses to utterly outclass an Imperial Guard [13]. The Imperial Guard were a force of elite warriors who served the Sith Emperor, being specifically trained to match and kill Jedi and Sith Lords. They were molded into "physical perfection", being said that "merely one is worth a hundred ordinary troops." Darth Marr credited them as "among the most dangerous in the galaxy." Revan's senses ability outstrip Yoda.

 

"It is the way of the Echani to be able to read their opponents - to know where an opponent is going to strike before it connects, anticipate it, and then strike against them. Echani battles are fought several minutes in advance - in many ways, it is much like the game of dejarik played in the core systems. The most advanced among the Echani are able to predict the course of battles by months, and the most revered are said to be able to predict the path of wars. Only Revan ever demonstrated such a skill in war. And even as he slaughtered us, the Echani still respected him."

―Brianna (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords) [8]

 

"The Echani rely heavily on hand-to-hand combat and personal shield technology, and they had their asses handed to them by Revan during the Jedi Civil War, because, not surprisingly, there weren't many people able to face Revan across a battlefield and survive the encounter. The greatest among the Echani are said to be able to read their opponent's moves so ell they can predict the path of a battle several seconds, sometimes even minues in advance, by gauging their opponent's fighting style, heart rate, and ther movements in combat. In many ways, the Echani see combat as a rapid dejarik game, calculating feints, attacks, and dodges with a speed that few can surpass."

―Chris Avellone (Video Game Designer) [8]

 

"I always felt Revan was an incredible tactician, and the Echani were awed by his precog[nition] and natural skill with tactics."

―Chris Avellone (Video Game Designer) [9]

 

"Once he had tried to reach out to her with the Force. Serving in battle with someone formed a special bond; even across the breadth of the galaxy he should have been able to get some vague sense of her presence. Yet he had felt nothing. The simplest explanation was that she had become one with the Force, but Revan couldn't allow himself to believe she was dead."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan [10]

 

"He opened himself up to the Force. As it flowed through him, images of the women he loved danced through his head. And then suddenly they were gone, replaced by the amorphous face of another. "Meetra," Revan gasped as the features shifted sharply into focus. They held for an instant, then vanished. Though it had lasted only a second, the meaning was abundantly clear. Meetra was coming to rescue him.

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan [11]

 

"The Revanchists had foreseen galaxy wide chaos and sorrow."

―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia [12]

 

"Still, the slight stumble gave Revan enough time to draw his lightsaber and go on the offensive. He came in with a high, overhand chop-obvious feint meant to draw the defenses of his opponent downward, leaving his legs exposed to quick slash follow up. The guard recognized the familiar ploy, countering it by parrying the overhand chop then quickly dropping his blade low to intercept the inevitable slash at his legs. Only Revan didn't go for his legs. Anticipating that his opponent's defenses would go low, he kept his blade up high, allowing him to end the battle with horizontal cut across the man's exposed throat."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan [13]

 

His skills in mental influence were equally impressive. He was able to employ mind tricks with ease to influence and practically even control others, and he could even wipe the memories of others. He was also skilled in the art of Battle Meditation, employing it during the Battle of Kashyyyk.

Revan's mental influence abilities far surpass Yoda's. He was able to manipulate the soldiers first in the form of Force Fear [14], but then to calm them down [15]. He was also able to literally manipulate the Sith Emperor, who is perhaps the most famous telepather (that's a word now), to end an entire war aka the Great Galactic War [16]. Don't even get me started on how Revan's mental resistance is the best in the mythos though, and beats out Yoda easy.

 

"[He] reached out with the Force, amplifying the other's fear and confusing."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan [14]

 

"Revan tried to project calm, soothing waves through the Force to further ease their minds."*

―Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan [15]

 

"Revan played on the Emepror's caution and patience, constantly pushing them to the forefront of his enemy's mind. He augmented his irrational fear of death. At every opportunity he reinforced the idea that invading the Republic was reckless and dangerous."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan [16]

 

Yoda was also able to conceal his presence in the Force, doing so on Vjun. However, his application was not perfect, though that could be due to the Dark Side energies on Vjun.

Revan was able to conceal his presence in the Force on Korriban [17], an immensely powerful dark side nexus that eats away at the body and mind of all lightsiders [18], even in front of the Sith Headmasters.

 

"A Jedi Knight infiltrated the Academy by posing as a Sith apprentice. After gaining Master Wynn's confidence, the Jedi recealed himself. Wynn and Yuthura attacked the Jedi, but both were defeated in combat."

―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia [17]

 

"Korriban is home to the Sith Academy, an evil reflection of the Dantooine facility. The dark side is everywhere on Korriban, and walking the path of the light side will be very difficult. After you’ve infiltrated the Sith Academy, you learn of a grand tomb located in the Valley of the Sith... Soon you may start to hear things such as harsh voices slowly drifting through the thick air. Your heart will begin to beat faster, and your skin will begin to itch under your collar with the urge to climb back into your ship and leave this soulless place behind forever. Korriban is a graveyard of Sith Lords and a former power base of the Sith order... Its ominous halls resonate with the cries of anguish from those who are undeserving of the order’s dark power. Their stay within its merciless walls is short, brutal, and forgotten. For the very few who survive the Sith training and wish to complete their final rite of passage into the cold embrace of the Sith, they must face the Valley of the Dark Lords. Hundreds of ancient Sith sorcerers wait within the mausoleums. They lie in their dusty beds waiting to devour the weak and unworthy. The Valley seethes with the foul energy of a thousand restless spirits murmuring of sinister glories."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Prima Guide [18]

 

He could also use Alter Environment, using it to create a pocket of air that was able to hold back the vacuum of space.

It seems Revan used a form of Alter Environment to manipulate the area of Yavin IV with immense intensity. [19]

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_medium/11114/111140132/4255498-revan+tk.gif

―Star Wars: The Old Republic [19]

 

Yoda’s telekinetic abilities were quite profound. He was easily able to unleash Force Waves that could hurl dozens of enemies at a time on a moment’s notice.

Revan displayed superior Telekensis abilities when he unleashed a Force blast that hurled back the second Emperor's Wrath, Darth Marr, Lana Beniko, Theron Shan, Satele Shan, Shae Vizla and Jakarr. [20]

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_medium/11114/111140132/4255498-revan+tk.gif

―Star Wars: The Old Republic [20]

 

He could also easily move objects and starfighters weighing several tons.

Outside of the Clone Wars Microseries, a heavily exaggerated piece of C-Canon, Yoda hasn't displayed this much or at all, to my knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong). However, Revan was able to downpour appropriately 30 heavy asteroids [21] (they weigh *a lot*), in a tense combat situation after suffering severe mental problems. He can also instantly throw around stone archways [22] and large stone lids [23], and can blow open enormous doors [24].

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/3728501-1755254567-revan.gif

―Star Wars: The Old Republic [21]

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4018256-0080244720-fcWid.gif

―Star Wars: The Old Republic [21]

 

"Revan reached out with the Force and ripped the vaulted stone archway in the ceiling above them free from its setting."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan [22]

 

"Before they could join the fight, Revan thrust his hand, palm up, in the direction of the [enormous] durasteel doors, blasting them wide open with the power of the Force."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan [23]

 

"The instant before they detonated, Revan reached out with the Force and hurled the heavy stone lid of the [large] sarcophagus toward the grenades."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan [24]

 

He was also able to Force Push Darth Sidious as well. The thing to note about this is that Sidious is stated to always have his Force defenses raised, so Yoda would have had to breach Sidious’ raised Force defenses in order to telekinetically assault him.

Yoda's Force attack on Darth Sidious was pretty... lacking, IMO. Darth Sidious merely stood there as Yoda raised his hand and attacked him. Always having his defenses raised could perhaps be an exaggeration, or this particular event could easily be a circumstance where it differed. He failed to make an effort to even defend himself at all. However, Revan unleashes an attack at the Sith Emperor with such force that it sends Revan staggering himself [25].

 

"Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in it's purest form. There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan's mind, was sent flying backward."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan [25]

 

One of his more interesting telekinetic feats was displayed in Dark Rendezvous. In this particular instance, Yoda manipulated many small objects that had been thrown into the air, including liquids, and then set them back in their proper place. No muss, no fuss. It’s a pretty neat feat, in my opinion.

While I agree that is a very impressive display of telekinetic precision, Revan (as majority) who made an ancient Sith holocron, would have influenced the Force on a subatomic particle scale to alter the mechanics of such device [26]. This level of precision is insane. Revan is also a beast in Force Wield and the art of Lightsaber Throw, being able to throw around two blades while going in battle against the most powerful champions in the galaxy [27]. His ability to manipulate the blades have been said that even the likes of Mandalorians can't even react to it [28].

 

"The matrix had to fall within highly exacting specifications, and Bane had spent hundreds of hours making thousands of precise, subatomic alterations through the power of the Force to ensure that each crystalline strand was properly in place."

―Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction [26]

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4306234-revan+yeah.gif

―Star Wars: The Old Republic [27]

 

"Revan used that moment to unleash a sidearm throw of his lightsaber. The blade went spinning out in a wide arcing path that ended both their lives before they could move."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan [28]

 

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

 

Despite Revan's obvious similarities to Yoda as a Force User, he was no match for the likes of the Sith Emperor [29]. Because of this, it is only a logical conclusion that Yoda is also insignificant compared to the likes of Lord VItiate.

 

"The Emperor now hungers for the end of life itself. He would consume us all--starting with you. The Emperor is not the being he once was. He now hungers for the end of life itself. He would consume us all. In resurrecting the Emperor, Revan believes he will succeed where others have failed. But the Emperor will prove far too powerful--for Revan, or anyone else.

―Darth Marr (Star Wars: The Old Republic) [29]

 

"The Emperor hungers. If restored, he would attempt to consume all life in the galaxy, and I am certain he would succeed. No one--not Revan, not the Jedi, not you, not me--would be able to stop him. "

―Darth Marr (Star Wars: The Old Republic) [29]

 

"No one person--not even Revan--can truly destroy the Emperor. He will destroy Revan, then move on to the rest of us. In time, he will consume all life in the galaxy."

―Darth Marr (Star Wars: The Old Republic) [29]

 

"If we do nothing, the Emperor will devour us all. That cannot be allowed."

―The Emperor's Wrath (Star Wars: The Old Republic) [29]

 

"You can't defeat him. Even at his weakest, you are no match for the Emperor. Have some common sense. The Emperor is the dark side incarnate. You wouldn't stand a chance. You're mad to think you'd even stand a chance against his power. You're nothing to him.

―The Emperor's Wrath (Star Wars: The Old Republic) [29]

Edited January 19, 2015 by MarcheseAMM

[Aurbere]

Well, that's a long post. While I appreciate the effort put into it, I have no intention of responding.The list of feats was just that, a list of feats. It was designed to aid the process of developing the comparison.

 

Yoda's most impressive feat also marks him as notably superior to Revan.

 

However, I will comment on two things. 1. Yoda has moved large objects with ease while also manipulating other objects at the same time, not just in the Original Clone Wars. 2. It is outright stated in the Darth Plagueis novel that Sidious vowed to never lower his Force defenses ever again. There is no indication that Sidious was caught off guard in any text that I have managed to get a hold of, so there is no reason to assume that Sidious just let his guard down when confronted by his greatest foe.

 

And, finally, a great deal of your argument involved a lot of reaching. Suffice to say, I'm not convinced.

[MarcheseAMM]

Yoda's most impressive feat also marks him as notably superior to Revan.

Well, I would love to here what this grand feat. Share.

 

1. Yoda has moved large objects with ease while also manipulating other objects at the same time, not just in the Original Clone Wars.

Care to show examples? Just saying it doesn't help your case.

 

2. It is outright stated in the Darth Plagueis novel that Sidious vowed to never lower his Force defenses ever again.

Obvious exaggeration is obvious exaggeration.

 

And, finally, a great deal of your argument involved a lot of reaching. Suffice to say, I'm not convinced.

It wasn't to convince you, it was more to display my knowledge on Revan for personal satisfaction, and secondly to help persuade members here who aren't extremely ignorant and bias to canonical lore. Sorry you didn't fit the list.

[Aurbere]

[/color]

1. Well, I would love to here what this grand feat. Share.

 

[/color]

2. Care to show examples? Just saying it doesn't help your case.

 

[/color]

3. Obvious exaggeration is obvious exaggeration.

 

[/color]

4. It wasn't to convince you, it was more to display my knowledge on Revan for personal satisfaction, and secondly to help persuade members here who aren't extremely ignorant and bias to canonical lore. Sorry you didn't fit the list.

 

1. Sidious vs. Yoda. Duh.

 

2. Dark Rendezvous for that particular feat. There are others with greater magnitude, but not the level of multitasking. Also, all of his feats took place when he was past his prime and/or weakened in some way.

 

3. Concession accepted.

 

4. So anyone who doesn't think Revan (or Vitiate) > Yoda is extremely ignorant and biased. Hear that, Sel? You're extremely ignorant and biased. Me too, I guess. So is pretty much everyone here.

 

Hmm, that reminds me of that Blood+ quote I paraphrased.

 

(Oh, and you broke the rules again. That's the sixth warning I've given you. Sel liking you is making me too nice. )

[MarcheseAMM]

2. Revan's Telekentic precision was greater then the feat you showed me of Yoda's.

3. Likewise I accept your concession on Revan literally being power, meaning he is > Mortis.

4 and aftermath. Meh, I typed my entire argument without insulting you. U insulted me though.

Edited January 19, 2015 by MarcheseAMM

[Aurbere]

2. Revan's Telekentic precision was greater then the feat you showed me of Yoda's.

3. Likewise I accept your concession on Revan literally being power, meaning he is > Mortis.

4 and aftermath. Meh, I typed my entire argument without insulting you. I insulted me though.

 

2. Nope.

 

3. You obviously have no idea how writing works. The two statements are literally completely different.

 

4. You basically said that anybody here who thinks Yoda > Vitiate (or Revan) is ignorant. I find that insulting.

 

But I see you failed to come up with a counter to Yoda's greatest feat. You cannot deny Sidious' status with any real credibility and you cannot deny Yoda's performance against him. You also cannot deny that Yoda is canonically more powerful than Revan.

[tunewalker]

2. Nope.

 

3. You obviously have no idea how writing works. The two statements are literally completely different.

 

4. You basically said that anybody here who thinks Yoda > Vitiate (or Revan) is ignorant. I find that insulting.

 

But I see you failed to come up with a counter to Yoda's greatest feat. You cannot deny Sidious' status with any real credibility and you cannot deny Yoda's performance against him. You also cannot deny that Yoda is canonically more powerful than Revan.

 

That last statemen litterally comes from all cannon statements that call Yoda "the most powerful jedi" before Luke, as such Revan as a Jedi is Automatically lower on the scale.

[MarcheseAMM]

But I see you failed to come up with a counter to Yoda's greatest feat. You cannot deny Sidious' status with any real credibility and you cannot deny Yoda's performance against him. You also cannot deny that Yoda is canonically more powerful than Revan.

Hence why I have, and always put Yoda above Revan, lol. The difference is Yoda doing that doesn't make him a tier above Revan, and Revan can easily be still a the bottom of Yoda/Sidious' tier in all reality, as I proved above.

Edited January 19, 2015 by MarcheseAMM

[MarcheseAMM]

Hear that, Sel? You're extremely ignorant and biased.

I never said Selenial was ignorant or bias. Don't put words in my mouth or I will put 15x the amount in yours.

[Rhyltran]

I think this is pretty impressive.

 

2:19+

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rahk3r5vob8

Edited January 19, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Beniboybling]

I have to agree with Aurbere concerning Ant's anaylsis, there was quite a lot of reaching, and nothing really concrete that puts Revan above or on level with Yoda. Its also based on the flawed premise that the Sith Emperor > Sidious.

 

But I'll propose a counter-anaylsis, focusing on what Yoda has done that Revan is evidently incapable of.

 

1. Yoda has schooled superior opponents with a greater level of ease:

Three members of the council—Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba, excellent fighters all—had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured. Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him.

 

--Taken from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Yoda outmaneuvers three exceptional lightsaber duelists with ease, suggesting that if he had been armed he would have been able to cut them down with equal ease, in a similar manner to Sidious, whose speed he's matched

 

And yet despite being armed, Revan was taken down by Lord Kallig, Baras' Apprentice, Cipher 9 and the Grand Champion of the Great Hunt, powerful warriors all but only two Force sensitives yet to reach their prime.

 

Revan's performance against strike teams on Yavin 4 are inconsequential, as not only was amped by the nexus. The Foundry fight is therefore the more accurate depiction of his powers. And while as Force users Kallig and the soon to be Wrath were likely stronger than the likes of Koon, Tiin and Depa, it is unlikely they were superior duelists, and even with the help of Cipher 9 and the Grand Champion, it is even more unlikely they could take on Yoda.

 

2. Yoda has performed telekinesis on a far greater level than Revan:

 

Revan's most impressive telekinetic feat (unassisted by a nexus) was his ability to grip and launch multiple asteroids at his opponents, each weighing in at around 600 tonnes. Yoda on the other hand as TKed entire armies of battle droids.

 

I realise that OCW feats are exaggerated, but regardless they remain a part of Legends canon, and while not accurate, remain depictions of what happened. What OCW generally tends to do is exaggerate scale, for example the number of droidekas Yoda manipulates and the number of tri-fighters they collided with was likely a lot less. However Yoda only manipulates two MTTs and two landing craft at a time, the numbers are not hyperbolic and the only way the feat can be downplayed is by claiming it didn't happen, its canon, its happened, I therefore take it to be accurate.

 

And for the record, a single C-9979 landing craft has a cargo capacity of 1,800 tonnes, and but a hundred droidekas (we see Yoda manipulate hundreds if not nearly a thousand) would represent 7,500 tonnes. Many times the mass of any one asteroid that Revan was able to hurl, bearing in mind he only managed to launch one at a time.

 

Indeed Yoda should have been able to manipulate over well over half a dozen asteroids, if not over a dozen, at once.

 

3. Yoda has demonstrated a much higher level of tutanimis than Revan:

 

When pitted against Sith Lords with similar levels of tremendous power, the Sith Emperor and Darth Sidious, Yoda was able to repel Sidious' lightning whereas Revan was totally overwhelmed by the Sith Emperor's attack.

 

Here is Revan's less than impressive performance:

A dozen bolts of purple lightning arched from the Emperor toward him, Revan tried to draw them in and contain them but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful then Darth Nyriss had ever been. Revan's body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to he superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him. The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp. Almost too week to move, Revan managed to raise his head just in time to see the Emperor turn on the brave little astromech.

 

--Taken from The Old Republic: Revan

To say he struggled would be an understatement, as it if T3 had not intervened Revan would have shortly died. Revan was, quite simply, totally surpassed by the Sith Emperor's power, and is dispatched with the space of seconds.

 

Now, to compare that to Yoda's performance against Sidious who is comparable (though markedly superior) in ability:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5SkNrWSk5M&t=5m21s

 

The difference is staggering, Yoda is not only capable of catching the full brunt of Sidious' lighting without being burned, but he was able to gather his energies and push them back, almost completely overwhelming Sidious before the energy explodes and luck has it that Yoda loses the high ground. Yoda is the superior master of tutanimis.

 

Conclusion: Yoda surpasses Revan across multiple spheres of Force ability, and in general has performed incredible feats that Revan evidently appears incapable of matching, simply put Yoda is in a different league.

 

P.S. Can I also add that the notion that Nyriss amped on a Nexus > Sidious' lightning is beyond illogical? Anthony accepts that Yoda is stronger than Revan, and yet despite that Revan was somehow able to overwhelm with cuplable ease a supposedly more powerful outburst of lightning, while Yoda very much struggled with an inferior one.

 

Anthony's placement of characters just doesn't make sense, and creates far too many inconsistencies.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Yoda's Force attack on Darth Sidious was pretty... lacking, IMO. Darth Sidious merely stood there as Yoda raised his hand and attacked him. Always having his defenses raised could perhaps be an exaggeration, or this particular event could easily be a circumstance where it differed.

To agree with Aurbere, yah no. Sidious is standing before the greatest Jedi the galaxy has ever known, a Jedi it is quite obvious has every intention of killing him, and a Jedi who but moments later, he tries to flee from.

 

Tell me what feasible reason Sidious could have for not having his guard up, despite saying he would never let it down again, which while may be an exaggeration, definitely means he wouldn't drop it in a situation like this one.

Hence why I have, and always put Yoda above Revan, lol. The difference is Yoda doing that doesn't make him a tier above Revan, and Revan can easily be still a the bottom of Yoda/Sidious' tier in all reality, as I proved above.

Revan couldn't even challenge the Sith Emperor in a weakened state, he is said to be totally beyond his power. I don't think its possible to take your argument seriously unless you can prove that the Sith Emperor is in some godly tier vastly superior to Sidious. Because even placing Revan at the bottom of Yoda/Sidious tier brings that level down a lot.

 

And that is a sincere request, I grow increasingly tired of people claiming Sith Emperor > Sidious, but when pressed for reasons they provide none, just a few piecemeal points, nothing definitive and nothing that covers multiple bases. S_W_Legend is the only one I have seen attempt this, and his arguments as you said yourself are dumb, you can't expect us to take you seriously if you don't back up bold claims that most of your arguments appear to depend on.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Jrr_hypernova]

Why do people always assume power is who can toss the biggest rock? Power comes in many different forms its completely possible for a Sith to have more raw force power than a different one but end up weaker due to the other Sith being smarter in its use or having more political pull.

[cs_zoltan]

And yet despite being armed, Revan was taken down by Lord Kallig, Baras' Apprentice, Cipher 9 and the Grand Champion of the Great Hunt, powerful warriors all but only two Force sensitives yet to reach their prime.

 

While I agree with your overall assessment, I'd like to point out that the Foundry fight was shortly after Revan's escape from Maelstrom Prison and 300 years of captivity of the Sith Emperor. So probably he wasn't at his best.

[Beniboybling]

While I agree with your overall assessment, I'd like to point out that the Foundry fight was shortly after Revan's escape from Maelstrom Prison and 300 years of captivity of the Sith Emperor. So probably he wasn't at his best.

I'm not sure, its speculative, and not really anywhere implied or stated, but I guess its possible.

[Beniboybling]

Why do people always assume power is who can toss the biggest rock? Power comes in many different forms its completely possible for a Sith to have more raw force power than a different one but end up weaker due to the other Sith being smarter in its use or having more political pull.

Well the purpose of this thread is to gauge Force power i.e. who can toss the biggest rock, not intellect or political influence, not that I don't agree with the sentiment, just not in this context.

[MarcheseAMM]

He wasn't nearly his full strength obviously, and Nox/Wrath/Cipher/Champ is a far more deadly enemy then the Jedi that Yoda faced, especially when you take in account the factors that the Jedi attacking Yoda were not going to kill him, and hence didn't unleash their full arsenal. That being said, your only argument for Yoda besides the Tutaminis which I seen so many times now from countless users that your particular one was pretty awful was Yoda's TK feats in OCW. Just because it is canon doesn't take away the fact it is bluntly exaggerated, depicting that average Jedi Knights have the telekinetic power to lift up entire Star Destroyers. Since you had no other argument besides OCW, I accept your concession on that as well. With that being said, we literally only have Tutaminis in the way of Yoda >= Revan.

[cs_zoltan]

I'm not sure, its speculative, and not really anywhere implied or stated, but I guess its possible.

 

Yeah, that' why the "probably"

But considering his other feats it's fair to assume he wasn't at 100% when he got beaten by 2 Lord and 2 non-force user.

Edited January 19, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[Beniboybling]

He wasn't nearly his full strength obviously, and Nox/Wrath/Cipher/Champ is a far more deadly enemy then the Jedi that Yoda faced, especially when you take in account the factors that the Jedi attacking Yoda were not going to kill him, and hence didn't unleash their full arsenal. That being said, your only argument for Yoda besides the Tutaminis which I seen so many times now from countless users that your particular one was pretty awful was Yoda's TK feats in OCW. Just because it is canon doesn't take away the fact it is bluntly exaggerated, depicting that average Jedi Knights have the telekinetic power to lift up entire Star Destroyers. Since you had no other argument besides OCW, I accept your concession on that as well. With that being said, we literally only have Tutaminis in the way of Yoda >= Revan.

1. And you have something aside from speculation that prove this? Fanon is fanon. And any disparity in regards to circumstance and strength is made up for by the fact Yoda schooled his opponents, whereas Revan was beaten.

 

2. Yoda is no average knight. This is not a situation in which a person has been ascribed powers it is literally illogical to have so your comparison is flawed. Yoda is more than capable of doing what he did, considering that an inferior Force user i.e. Galen Marek, has manipulated capital ships, if he can do that Yoda can pull of this inferior feat.

 

Altogether I provide no concessions, because you have failed to prove why this particular feat is inaccurate.

 

3. I don't really care what you think of my argument, and I am not surprised that many others have brought it up, and expect you failed to respond to them in the same way you are failing now. Yoda's tutanimis feat is perhaps the most definitive proof of his superiority over Revan, your inability to disprove it only demonstrates your argument to be weak.

 

Altogether I am uninterested in the "I accept your concession" jargon when you can't counter the point. Mature and constructive discussion is all the rules allow I'd remind you, and if all you can do is sling mud I'll have to ignore you.

[Beniboybling]

Yeah, that' why the "probably"

But considering his other feats it's fair to assume he wasn't at 100% when he got beaten by 2 Lord and 2 non-force user.

I expect he was weakened somewhat, but considering what he managed to pull off, not by that much.

 

Really Revan's performance in Shadow of Revan doesn't align with his performance in the Revan novel.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Beniboybling

[MarcheseAMM]

1. And you have something aside from speculation that prove this? Fanon is fanon. And any disparity in regards to circumstance and strength is made up for by the fact Yoda schooled his opponents, whereas Revan was beaten.

That fact that in training duels, Tiin has stalemated Mace and TPM!Kenobi has beat Mace should be good enough.

 

2. Yoda is no average knight. This is not a situation in which a person has been ascribed powers it is literally illogical to have so your comparison is flawed. Yoda is more than capable of doing what he did, considering that an inferior Force user i.e. Galen Marek, has manipulated capital ships, if he can do that Yoda can pull of this inferior feat.

No. The Star Destroyer was already coming down, Galen used ALL his energy to tilt it ever so slightly away.

 

"DESOLATION. DESTRUCTION. DEATH.

 

That's what I bring, the apprentice thought, wherever I go. Ten stormtroopers, a hundred, a thousand-the numbers don't matter, faceless, futureless, disposable, they're all the same to me.

 

And that isn't power.

 

He glanced behind him, at the swath he had cut through the Imperial forces. Wrecked walkers lay in smoking ruin, red-glowing gashes still visible in their armored exteriors. Stormtroopers lay in piles where they had died, futilely regrouping to turn back his advance. Choked, blasted with lightning, dismembered, they had .11 least met quick deaths. He had lost the stomach for prolonged engagement. He just wanted to get in and out and back to the ship-where a host of difficult problems remained, for certain, but .11 least he wasn't treading the same old territory.

 

I am my Master's weapon, he thought. I lay waste to all that stands in his path. But where is the power in that? There are levels of mastery beyond the simple act of killing that Darth Vader has never taught me. One must be able to control without applying lethal force; otherwise there will soon be nothing left to control. It takes more than a really big stick to own the galaxy.

 

Fear, he decided. That was the key. People were afraid of his Master and the Emperor above him. If he was ever to rule as they did, he would have to learn that art himself. But from whom? Ami to what end? If Darth Vader taught him those secrets, he might rise up against his Master and wrest control of the galaxy from him. The teachings of the Sith-such as he had been exposed to, anyway-had little to say about limiting the desire for power. There could be no such limits. They were expressly forbidden.

 

From one of the cannon engineers, he extracted the location of the targeting control systems. He hurried there through thickening layers of defenses. The workings of the cannon were almost deafening now, as it charged up its mighty capacitors and electrified its linear induction rails. The booming of each metallic missile, which accelerated to supersonic speeds in less than a second, was almost physically painful. Even the act of moving such a large mass into position through the guts of the machine made more noise than he had ever heard before. He doubted his ears would recover.

 

When he reached the controls, it was a relatively simple matter to program the cannon to shift targets just slightly: from the magnetic scoops that gathered up each orbital projectile and brought it safely in to dock, to the disk-like infrastructure itself. He estimated that two shots would probably do the job, but three would make certain of it. Beyond that, the shipyard's orbit would start shifting, so the cannon might hit nothing at all. He planned to be well on his way by that point, with his mission to hurt and embarrass the Empire complete.

 

He finished programming the cannon and waited patiently for confirmation. As soon as he had it, he stabbed his lightsaber deep into the control panel's guts, thereby ensuring that no surviving controller could reset the cannon's aim. Confident that the machine would follow its new programming to the letter, he made his way through the superstructure to the outside world, where the air might not have been any fresher but at least it was a little less thick with blood.

 

The first of the three cannonballs was in place. An earsplitting whine indicated that the linear accelerator was fully charged. With a surge of acceleration that made the ground literally move beneath his feet, the ball of metal was suddenly airborne, glowing red with friction as it arced up into the sky. Its course seemed true. The apprentice watched, hypnotized, as it shrank to a dot then disappeared completely from sight. Even then he followed its progress with his mind, knowing the course it was expected to follow.

 

The bright circle of the shipyard was easily visible in the sky. He stared at it until it was burned into his retina. When the first of the explosions came, as expected, he was surprised at its brightness.

 

The weapon had a second cannonball in place. As it seared up through the atmosphere, the apprentice let his gaze fall and continued on his way. The explosions were spreading across the shipyard's superstructure. That process would only increase when the second missile arrived. He didn't need to watch the progress of his plan to know that it would succeed. His time would be better spent getting away than in indulging hubris.

 

When the third missile was on its way, he had reached the crater below which Drexl's former hideout had rested. Scavenger droids swarmed over the site like insects on a carcass. A contingent lashed out at him as he approached, and he was forced to deal with them before he could continue. Only when that was done did he glance up at the sky.

 

"Juno," he called into the comlink. "Juno, answer me. Von have to get the ship in the air."

 

Kota's voice unexpectedly came in reply. "What's going on, boy?"

 

Can't you see it, he wanted to say, then realized who he was talking to. He described the scene in as few words as he could, un able to tear his gaze away from the sight of the disintegrating ship yards. Huge, molten chunks were tearing free and tumbling either out into deep space or down into lower orbits while further explosions continued to tear the facility apart. The scaffolding around the nearly completed Star Destroyer had bent and torn completely away, leaving the ship free to power down into the atmosphere of Raxus Prime. Already it was visible as a distinct triangle glowing orange around its leading edges and conning tower. It was coming directly toward him.

 

It was aiming for him.

 

"Juno can't fly the ship at the moment," said Kota firmly, "and neither can PROXY. We have to find another solution." "What's wrong with Juno?"

 

"Concentrate on what's important, boy. That Star Destroyer is coming down fast. You'll never get clear in time. You need to pull it into the cannon."

 

The apprentice was temporarily lost for words when he realized what Kota was suggesting.

 

Kota wanted him to move the Star Destroyer using nothing but the Force.

 

"You're insane," he gasped. "It's massive!" "What is mass?" Kota said. "It's all in your mind, boy. You're a Jedi! Size means nothing to you!"

 

Kota's voice had changed. The surly, drunken slur was completely absent; in its place was the durasteel bark of the seasoned combat veteran the apprentice had first met.

 

"Can you hear me, boy? Reach out and grab that ship, or you'll die on this trash heap!"

 

The Star Destroyer was growing visibly larger and hung like a burning, triangular moon low in the sky of Raxus Prime.

 

You're a Jedi! Size means nothing to you!

 

He wasn't a Jedi but the message was the same. The Force didn't recognize big or small, heavy or light, hard or easy. The living flows of the galaxy encompassed all scales, from the very small to the extremely large. The Star Destroyer was part of it, and so was he. The Force bound them as surely as gravity. He could make its invisible muscles flex, if he dared.

 

Had his Master ever done anything like this} Had the Emperor? Had any Sith or Jedi in the history of the galaxy?

 

He doubted anyone would ever know about his success or failure in the next few minutes. "Be quick about it, boy!"

 

Fast or slow were also irrelevant to the Force, but the apprentice took Kota's point. The sooner he started, the sooner it would be done.

 

Deactivating his lightsaber and attaching the hilt to his belt, he adopted the opening stance of the Soresu form, with his right arm and fingers outstretched, pointing at the Star Destroyer. His empty left hand he tucked in next to his heart. With his legs braced firmly in the trash, he reached as deep as he had ever reached into the Force, and then went farther still, feeling as though a mighty chasm had opened up under him and his mind and will plunged down into it. The chasm filled. His mind opened. The physical existence of the Star Destroyer slid painlessly inside.

 

Nearly sixteen hundred meters long and capable of carrying a crew in excess of thirty-seven thousand, the ship was a familiar design. Its engines and armament weren't fully installed, but its Class One hyperdrive would have taken it anywhere in the Empire at speed, there to deploy walkers, fighters, barges, and shuttle Armed with a host of turbolaser and ion cannons, plus no less than ten tractor beams, it could have blockaded an entire system on its own. The reinforced durasteel hull was solid enough to rip a gouge in Raxus Prime that might take centuries to fill. Scavenger droids would have a field day when it came down. Wherever it went down . . .

 

There is no wherever, he told himself. There is only where I tell it to.

 

Focus.

 

The tip of his right index finger and the Star Destroyer became as one in his mind. Every nut and bolt and plate and wire of the massive machine was contained within that tiny space. It wasn't hard to move an arm, a finger, a single human cell. He could direct one barely without thinking, so why not the other, too? Instinct was clearer on that point than the workings of his mind. Ignoring perspective, the two were about the same size in his field of vision.

 

Except the Star Destroyer was growing larger with each passing second, and waves of TIE fighters and TIE bombers were pouring forth from its brand-new hangar decks. Laserfire cut huge super-hot channels through the atmosphere ahead of them.

 

The apprentice ignored it all. While the illusion held, he moved his hand a very slight distance to his right. The sensation of containing a vast, million-ton machine in the tip of one finger was deeply disorienting. He felt as though every muscle fiber, nerve, and bone groaned along with the metal seams and joints of the ship. What it felt, he felt, too, and even a small acceleration had a profound effect on such a large scale. It resisted with all the momentum it possessed. Hatches swang open; rivets popped; bulk heads twisted; pipes burst.

 

The Star Destroyer didn't appear to have moved much in the sky. It was still coming in low on the horizon, aiming to pass over him and strafe him from above. He shifted his hand a second time, but instead of changing its course he mistakenly gave it a slight tumble. He needed to apply the Force the right way for this to work, taking the growing forces of friction and the shifting of its center of gravity into account. A spinning Star Destroyer would do more damage than one burying itself nose-first into the cannon and its superstructure. Damage was good, when it came to destroying the Emperor's handiwork, but too much damage could destroy him and perhaps the Rogue Shadow as well under a deadly rain of molten shrapnel.

 

Bring it down in one piece, he told himself. Bring it down hard.

 

The ship growled and squealed in metal torment. He was getting the hang of it; he could see how its course was slowly shifting. As wide across as his outstretched hand now, it was hitting the atmosphere at a steeper angle than he had intended, burning bright red and already gouting a trail of black smoke and sparkling debris. He became aware of a sound communicated through his feet: a rumbling much deeper and more sustained than the pounding of the cannon, which had fallen silent after the firing of the third projectile. The Star Destroyer's incomplete frame was acting like a giant tube, and the atmosphere was resonating inside. His whole body sang with it.

 

More. The Star Destroyer was really picking up speed now. The thickening atmosphere had a slight braking effect, but nothing could prevent the inevitable. It was going to hit soon. A wild exodus of droids ran past him, fleeing the crash site. The TIE fighters it had launched raced ahead of the chaotic atmospheric waves it generated. He ignored them and concentrated on shifting ground zero as close to the cannon as he could.

 

Sparks danced in front of his eyes. The edges of his vision faded to black. Light and dark swirls spun around him, wraithlike. He felt momentarily faint and wondered if it was possible to dissolve into the Force. He was a speck caught in the updraft over a forest fire-yet somehow he had the audacity to try to command the fire to do his will.

 

Who did he think he was?

 

A sudden panic almost made him lose control. The Star Destroyer, now a burning, shrieking meteor, filled his entire forward vision. The hull was peeling away in fiery, golden strips, each one weighing hundreds of tons, exposing the darker skeleton beneath. It looked like a death's-head, a ghastly mask not dissimilar to hi Master's, but one molten like lava. This could well be the end of everything, he thought distantly. Of him, of his plans, of his feelings for Juno, and of the boy called Galen who had lost a father a long time ago and whose grief had already been effectively erased

 

But his name had survived, and names had power. The apprentice clutched at it with desperation, needing to regain control of the Star Destroyer lest it tear itself apart and disperse the impact. He needed to find his focus again, to ignore the feeling of dissolution eating at the edges of his self, and to tip the balance of power back toward him.

 

Galen had stood up to Darth Vader as little more than a child Galen had wrested the lightsaber from a Dark Lord of the Sith and stood bravely in the face of death. Galen may have been ground down by years of training and darkness since, but was he truly gone-or had he just gone into hiding until the opportunity came to emerge back into the light?

 

Are you there, Galen? I need your help!

 

No answer came.

 

The Star Destroyer's catastrophic reentry made the world shake. There was no time to try again. For Juno, then.

 

He gritted his teeth and snarled at the sky. The dead weight ol the Star Destroyer shifted one last time, changing its angle of de scent just enough to hang together those last few hundred meters, but not enough to risk bouncing. Only seconds remained before it hit and it was still getting bigger. It was impossible that the sky could contain so much metal!

 

Abandoning his control over the ship, knowing there was nothing now that he could do to alter its course, the apprentice staggered backward, dazed. The Force fled from him, leaving him wrung out and drained. With a sound like the world ending, the Star Destroyer completed its first and final journey. It hit the cannon, exactly as it was supposed to, and the sky turned white. The ground buckled beneath the apprentice's feet. He pinwheeled, unable to find his balance, as a tsunami of junk and waste rose up ahead of him and blotted out the sun."

Edited January 19, 2015 by MarcheseAMM