Looking for Raid Lead/Main Tank Tips (No Idea What I'm Doing)

[ZiggyTank]

Hi Everyone,

 

Long Introduction (spoiler tag below) here explaining how I got into NiM Raiding and the personal growth I went through to get where I am today.

 

(TL;DR - Despite clearing a lot of difficult content in an unfamiliar role, and a relatively short amount of time I have come to the realization that I don't know what the heck I'm doing, and would like any advice from more experienced raiders, raid leads, and tanks in general knowing full well that I have the utmost respect for anyone who takes up the role and the job. I want to go from being a tank because nobody else wants to do the job, to being THE tank because there's nobody else better for the job.)

 

I am a casual poster, Theorycraft Reader, and first time tank here.

 

I've recently been given the role of what I would call Raid Lead and "Main Tank" in a raid group. I recently came back to the game around September and found myself wanting to raid so I applied as a dps. Well those spots were full but I was given a chance to tank so I took it. Mind you I have never main tanked NiM content before, nor have I really acted in the capacity as a tank for any MMO I've played. About two months later the group I joined cleared Nightmare DF and went 4/5 NiM DP before 3.0 hit and times were good. I read up on KBN's optimization guide on the forums, practiced my rotations, talked with Tanks clearing content faster than we did for their input, and conversed with my retired MMO Tanking friends for any kind of input. But most importantly, I kept up to date with the latest cartel pack fashions to make sure I looked good on the job.

 

We hit a rough patch where our group ended up struggling on a few fights where my tanking abilities were questioned, gearing choices (based off of KBN's optimization numbers) doubted, and my skills highly suspect. I was taught for the longest time that new content warrants tanks and healers to be geared first, but the choice was made to gear the dps instead due to rough dps requirements. As a result, we had fights where we didn't even see enrage because tanks were getting torn apart, and healers couldn't keep up when the dps stepped in it. I believed it was a mix of unfamiliarity with the encounters and poor choices in regards to meeting gear requirements while ignoring party composition (Roll more Troopers/Bounty Hunters amirite?).

 

Naturally, internalizing every critique got to me and I didn't think I could cut it on Hard Modes for 3.0, popping the bubble of joy I had built up from finally clearing Brontes on NiM 16 just a few weeks earlier. I was humbled, put my pants on and read up on every strat, bug, and party composition that occurred with the new raids. I came to realize that our wipes were due to fight unfamiliarity, gearing of the wrong people compared to the needs of the raid group, and a mentality of brute forcing your way through content ignoring gear or party composition.

 

My research showed that damage was insane and that wipes were due to a lack of encounter unfamiliarity with a lack of understanding how to improve each wipe, and that I wasn't a baddie with my gearing choices (KBN I'm sorry for ever doubting you, because I doubted myself) and we got a kill due to a better understanding of the mechanics (and a 6 set bonus, holla).

 

And that is where I am today. I find myself at the helm (or co-helm) of the raid group and feel like I'm still not the best choice in regards to skill or leadership capabilities, hence my initial feelings that I'm only tanking because the better tanks in the guild have scheduling conflicts and/or just unavailable. And this is the part of my ego that I cannot let go, because I know I can do better and want your collective input. Egos aside, please, let me have it and reminisce about your old war stories, tips and drama that you had to put up with, or anything you think a tank would need to know not just for raiding in progression, but in general.

 

 

Thank you for your time.

[Vaidinah]

Hi Everyone,

 

Long Introduction (spoiler tag below) here explaining how I got into NiM Raiding and the personal growth I went through to get where I am today.

 

(TL;DR - Despite clearing a lot of difficult content in an unfamiliar role, and a relatively short amount of time I have come to the realization that I don't know what the heck I'm doing, and would like any advice from more experienced raiders, raid leads, and tanks in general knowing full well that I have the utmost respect for anyone who takes up the role and the job. I want to go from being a tank because nobody else wants to do the job, to being THE tank because there's nobody else better for the job.)

 

I am a casual poster, Theorycraft Reader, and first time tank here.

 

I've recently been given the role of what I would call Raid Lead and "Main Tank" in a raid group. I recently came back to the game around September and found myself wanting to raid so I applied as a dps. Well those spots were full but I was given a chance to tank so I took it. Mind you I have never main tanked NiM content before, nor have I really acted in the capacity as a tank for any MMO I've played. About two months later the group I joined cleared Nightmare DF and went 4/5 NiM DP before 3.0 hit and times were good. I read up on KBN's optimization guide on the forums, practiced my rotations, talked with Tanks clearing content faster than we did for their input, and conversed with my retired MMO Tanking friends for any kind of input. But most importantly, I kept up to date with the latest cartel pack fashions to make sure I looked good on the job.

 

We hit a rough patch where our group ended up struggling on a few fights where my tanking abilities were questioned, gearing choices (based off of KBN's optimization numbers) doubted, and my skills highly suspect. I was taught for the longest time that new content warrants tanks and healers to be geared first, but the choice was made to gear the dps instead due to rough dps requirements. As a result, we had fights where we didn't even see enrage because tanks were getting torn apart, and healers couldn't keep up when the dps stepped in it. I believed it was a mix of unfamiliarity with the encounters and poor choices in regards to meeting gear requirements while ignoring party composition (Roll more Troopers/Bounty Hunters amirite?).

 

Naturally, internalizing every critique got to me and I didn't think I could cut it on Hard Modes for 3.0, popping the bubble of joy I had built up from finally clearing Brontes on NiM 16 just a few weeks earlier. I was humbled, put my pants on and read up on every strat, bug, and party composition that occurred with the new raids. I came to realize that our wipes were due to fight unfamiliarity, gearing of the wrong people compared to the needs of the raid group, and a mentality of brute forcing your way through content ignoring gear or party composition.

 

My research showed that damage was insane and that wipes were due to a lack of encounter unfamiliarity with a lack of understanding how to improve each wipe, and that I wasn't a baddie with my gearing choices (KBN I'm sorry for ever doubting you, because I doubted myself) and we got a kill due to a better understanding of the mechanics (and a 6 set bonus, holla).

 

And that is where I am today. I find myself at the helm (or co-helm) of the raid group and feel like I'm still not the best choice in regards to skill or leadership capabilities, hence my initial feelings that I'm only tanking because the better tanks in the guild have scheduling conflicts and/or just unavailable. And this is the part of my ego that I cannot let go, because I know I can do better and want your collective input. Egos aside, please, let me have it and reminisce about your old war stories, tips and drama that you had to put up with, or anything you think a tank would need to know not just for raiding in progression, but in general.

 

 

Thank you for your time.

 

It's difficult to know where to start from this post, but I'll go with your beginning as a tank. Since you are tanking NiM content while leading the team, you're in an obviously difficult position compared to the vast majority of people. You have a lot of responsibility for your team so it's great that you want to be the best player you can for your team. Leaders generally have to do the most work to not only play a particular role, but also to work with the team to get everyone on the same page and help them out as well.

 

I'm a DPS and one of the leaders in my main progression guild (Intrepid for 16 man), but I've been a tank about 6 months after this game came out with a completely different one as the main leader so I have a pretty good idea about your issues. I don't have much information about what you've done specifically, but I can say without a doubt that the vast majority of wipes on every progression team are due to people taking too much damage. Yeah, that seems really obvious and most players *know* this to be true, but few actually *understand* just how critical this is in general and so they don't give this top priority. Too many people focus on just getting higher numbers for DPS/healing instead of lower number for DTPS (damage taken per second). The ideal for every player (regardless of role) is to minimize damage taken, maximize damage done, position such that you help your team and don't hamper them while performing mechanics as well as possible.

 

This is especially true in 16 man content (which it seems your guild does), but even in 8 man, it is everyone's responsibility to take as little damage as possible while performing his/her role. It's very important that players in a progression team really understand the mechanics of each fight and know how to mitigate damage with defensive cooldowns and good positioning. Recently, I wrote a guide for my main progression guild just so that we can minimize our damage taken by taking the right utilities and using defensive cooldowns properly against the type of damage taken (like periodic AoE vs. burst). Along with this, I've been trying to explain to people what type of attacks we are taking in each fight and getting people to understand how to best use defensive cooldowns to negate them. Of course, this changes based on whether you are a tank or not as tanks take very different types of attacks and have much more DTPS than non-tanks.

 

For example, a simple damage profile for the new operations is Malaphar HM. He attacks with melee/ranged (M/R) attacks constantly against the tank who has aggro and uses a direct force/tech (F/T) attack every 7 seconds IIRC. Another tank needs to grab adds around every 45 seconds and hold them and these adds do many M/R attacks against the tank. The red circle that appears that the tank must bring the adds to is a direct F/T attack that hits in an AoE and the team takes increasing periodic AoE damage based on your number of stacks that is also a F/T attack. For the tanks, you would want to use your anti-F/T defensive cooldowns on the red circle instead of the boss' other F/T attack since it does relatively low damage and pop your other defensive cooldowns when holding adds and/or the boss throughout the fight to lower damage. Anti-M/R defensive cooldowns like Oil Slick, Saber Ward, and Deflection are especially good against the adds.

 

With non-tanks, players should only be taking F/T attacks and thus they should be popping their defensive cooldowns throughout the fight to minimize damage taken, especially at higher stacks before they leave the circle to drop them. The non-tanks should never have aggro on the adds, but if it happens anti-M/R cooldowns like Saber Ward, Deflection, and Evasion (mostly for the Operative) are the best choices.

 

I mention all this because even though Malaphar is a very easy fight compared to most other ones in the new HM ones, there is a great deal of room to minimize damage taken by good players. It also highlights an issue that many people do not realize, which is that in general, defensive cooldowns are NOT to be saved until the player reaches low health. The goal is to use them throughout each fight to lower DTPS. If you have to use all your defensive cooldowns just to get through a phase, do so because the longer the fight goes, the more your team will see of it and the more familiar with them your team will get. As you said, your team was not getting this level of experience due to dying early so especially when starting a new fight, staying alive and doing mechanics are the top two priorities.

 

Another benefit of this is that helps healers out a great deal. Healers get stressed out when people are low health as they must triage to get the player up before they die to periodic AoE damage or burst damage that can target that player soon. Healers who are stressed out play less efficiently than normal and thus they waste time and resources to get that player back into a safe range again. Fights where healers are triaging on a regular basis to keep people up are extremely likely to end up in a wipe. DPS should take care of themselves as much as they can while helping out with off-heals/cleanses and use of medpacs.

 

You can get through fights where players take lots of excessive damage with good healers carrying the team as nothing in this game requires anything close to perfect play from anyone, much less an entire team. However, this is not something you should rely on, especially if your team does not have stable healers. To give an example, I've been healing the new HM ops as a very badly geared Sage healer (almost all 180s and old set bonus) and have beaten the first 4 bosses in HM ToS and first 2 in Ravagers (wiped at 27k health on Torque). My healing is nothing special (average around 3k including the shielding) and I have a lot to learn to improve as both a Sage and a healer in general for these fights. While my other co-healer is putting out around 3.5-4k healing, we are beating the fights very quickly with this new team that has played together for only a short while and for only 5 hours a week. While most of us are alts and have a good amount of experience from our mains (and some have good gear), it still shows that it's our understanding of the fights that's pushing us to win and not just super high numbers.

 

Since I've had this chance to heal recently, I can see where people are eating damage for no good reason a lot more easily as well. If you have time and/or the inclination, I recommend healing for an alt team to see how people take damage to help learn how the fights work from that perspective. Other than that, the main advice I can give is learn the damage profile and mechanics of the fights as best you can, educate your team on them, and work with them to apply that information. Lastly, when possible, try to bring the same players on the same characters you can every single time so that players gain better familiarity with both the fight and each other. A consistent team is hugely beneficial to making progress.

[Vaidinah]

I have a couple more suggestions on issues to consider that have to do with raid leading and/or improving as a tank as well.

 

The first is when dying or in general, people should learn what is hitting them and/or what is killing them. This ties into my previous post about understanding what types of attacks the player is getting hit with like melee/ranged (M/R) or force/tech (F/T). Most players don't really know how they died even though with the correct in-game settings and use of a parser (Parsec is much better at giving this information so run it as well if you run StarParse). At most, people will just list the last attack, which can be very useful, but not does give a complete picture about what happened.

 

You'll want yourself and hopefully the people who are serious about progressing to look at the "Damage Taken" tab in your parser quite a bit to see what is killing them. Unfortunately, it will list the type of damage taken and not the type of attack, but you can figure out most of it with some basic rules. There have been several posts about this on the forums so it comes down to knowing that Kinetic damage comes from melee/ranged attacks (typically comes from the bosses attacks on a tank and/or add damage), Energy damage can be either melee/ranged attacks or force/tech ones (commonly periodic AoE damage on the team), and Internal/Elemental damage that is always a force/tech attack (can be either a special attack from a boss to the tank or an AoE attack on the team).

 

However, what's most important is usually not just the last blow itself, but also all the other ones that preceded it. This is often true in general that people will state what actually killed them, but kind of forget the dozens of other mistakes made by themselves and the team that led to the wipe. You can make a lot of mistakes and still get through boss fights with some being much less forgiving than others. It's important for everyone to recognize that there is a lot to improve for each player and that progression requires this desire to get better.

 

An example would be a fight like Sword Squadron where so much of the damage is avoidable and the real pain of the fight is just red circles (the attack is called Ground Burst Missile). On 8 man, you can definitely live from this attack if you have at least 30-35k health, but the periodic AoE attack on the rest of the team that comes right afterwards (Rain of Missiles) will kill that person very soon if they are not healed up. In a case like this, while a player may have died to Rain of Missiles (unavoidable AoE), the actual mistake was because they got hit by Ground Burst Missile (avoidable AoE).

 

The second issue I wanted to talk about is RNG. Specifically, you have probably seen this issue a lot since you said you tanked Brontes NiM, which has a great deal of RNG in the fight, especially the last 1.5 minutes of the final phase. What people often complain about is RNG happened to them and they died as a result. However, while this is understandable the first or even few to several times it happens, it's not later on. What players should try to do is think about RNG as a set of scenarios where they must know what to do in each one. Strategies in each fight can be changed to discourage RNG if needed as most of them are partially based at least on mechanics that are simply misunderstood or not understood at all. Oftentimes, mechanics or attacks that normally occur at different times can overlap on their timers to happen simultaneously (think Bulo HM with the Barrel Throw + Load Lifters). Dealing with RNG is a matter of fact in the game and players should try to get used to these timers when mechanics or attacks happen so they can avoid them (like avoiding fire in the Torque fight). There's a good reason why some teams can one-shot every single boss almost every week and others cannot.

 

For example, on Brontes NiM final phase, as a tank on the side closer to the entrance picking up that Hand of Brontes, you must be aware that the orbs that spawn can lock onto you (even though they supposedly should not). Normally, this is not the case and you can simply hit the orb to destroy it with that Hand of Brontes. If the very first one chooses you, though, you must deal with it in a different way since it explodes on you before the Hand blows it up. As a tank, you can Saber Reflect/Force Shroud to cheese the mechanic or use a stun/knockback while staying at max range so that the Hand of Brontes has time to destroy the orb safely away from you. Alternatively, you can have another player root or stun the orb for you.

 

When fighting Brontes in that last phase, she picks each target from the threat list from top to bottom and attacks the top player. Afterwards, she removes that player from the top and places him/her to the bottom. By controlling the threat on the fight (her threat list is the same one from the Kephess phase when you fought her) with stealth or using aggro drops from your team, you can control what order she attacks each player. This gives your team control over the fight by giving her attacks predictability, which helps your team progress much faster as the DPS and healers know which one is going to hit and what time so they can preemptively use their defensive cooldowns and mobility skills to position properly.

 

Ultimately, control is what tanking is about more than anything else. As a tank, you control who the boss attacks by holding aggro, you control the boss' positioning by your movement, and you control where the adds go and who they attack as well. Do your best to control the incoming damage in the fight and understand the mechanics to minimize the RNG aspects of it.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Vaidinah

[ZiggyTank]

Thank you so much for the reply that I am just soaking this all in and rethinking how best to communicate this to our raid group. Though I am currently at work and unable to make comments and ask questions at this time, I would like to thank you for the time you put in to your reply. It is very enlightening and I will write a beefier reply as soon as I get home. Many thanks! Edited January 16, 2015 by ZiggyTank
edited typos b/c I wrote this on my phone

[Oxidsed]

The fact you are asking is a good thing. Leadership is a balance between providing direction and boundaries (i.e. the strat, who calls the adds, etc), enforcing those boundaries (ensuring everyone who turns up is augmented, knows their rotations, etc), listening to suggestions, being able to take advice, then making a timely decision; and finally valuing the team members. Everyone has a role to play, and in a progression raid team, each of those roles is important. Doesn't matter whether tank, healer or dps, each needs to do their job right to make things happen.

 

As raid lead, you need to know what those roles are, help and encourage others to fulfill them, have the courage to pull them up if they are not doing them, and have the respect to acknowledge those who excel and provide valuable contributions to the team... oh, and of course nail your own role! See it is easy

 

There is a big difference between good and great raid leaders.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Oxidsed

[Vaidinah]

Thank you so muchc for the rely that I am just soaking this all in and rethinking how best to communicate this to our raid group. Though I am currently at work and unable to make comments and ask questions at this time, I would like to thank you for the time you put in to your reply. It is very enlightening and I will write a beefier reply as soon as I get hom. Many thanks!

 

No problem. Good luck to you and your team.

[Torvai]

I'd say as a raidlead, you get a huge advantage if you know every mechanic of the fights you're doing. From every perspective. So imho you should try and heal and dps on other occassions in the very same content. Even if it's just a Pug SM and you're doing HM you'll learn at least the basic mechanics a lot better this way.

Also you get a better idea of what can go wrong for everyone, which will help you to identify problems in your fights.

 

Being a tank AND raidleader can be somewhat stressful, since you need to pay attention to basically everything everyone does, know the mechanics and how to deal with them properly, need to do the calls and so on.

So make sure you delegate those tasks to other players where it's possible(ie let another player call when adds spawn, things like this).

Well, some fights it's really hard because you got enough to worry about already as a tank, and then there are fights like Nefra, where you can basically just stand there, taunt on cooldown and watch what everyone else does, even if it means to analyze other players rotations

 

Another thing on tanking in swtor: Imho, there is no such thing as a "main tank". Why? Because for most fights you simply need two of them and none has a bigger part to play than the other. So the tanks in a raidgroup need to act as a team more than everyone else.(but that's just my opinion).

What helps is to just sit together on whatever voice chat you're using with your co-tank after your raid is done and analyze parses or even just talk about it. What did you do wrong, where did you take unnecessary damage, which attack can be mitigated best with what dcd's and so on.

One example of this, from personal experience as I play guardian tank: Saber Reflect. Just try what attacks can and what can't be reflected. Since there are a lot of things in this game, that can be reflected, although you'd think they can't because they appear as AoE(for example Grob'thoks roar, the floor vents on torque, the spearthrow on malaphar). And then there are attacks where it's the other way around: You'd think you can reflect, but it just won't work.

 

Well, everything else that's important has already been covered by Vaidinah.

Although I got one addition to this part:

You'll want yourself and hopefully the people who are serious about progressing to look at the "Damage Taken" tab in your parser quite a bit to see what is killing them. Unfortunately, it will list the type of damage taken and not the type of attack, but you can figure out most of it with some basic rules. There have been several posts about this on the forums so it comes down to knowing that Kinetic damage comes from melee/ranged attacks (typically comes from the bosses attacks on a tank and/or add damage), Energy damage can be either melee/ranged attacks or force/tech ones (commonly periodic AoE damage on the team), and Internal/Elemental damage that is always a force/tech attack (can be either a special attack from a boss to the tank or an AoE attack on the team).

While he's right on this for the most part(there are attacks in the game that are ranged, but deal internal damage, slingers dirty blast for example), to determine if an attack is M/R or F/T just look if you can defend against it. If you can, it's M/R, if not it's F/T

Of course this is hard to tell if it's an attack that normally only hits dps or healers. But then theres always trial and error again. Try if things like Saber Ward work.

[ZiggyTank]

Update: This is just more background information on my raiding history. Our group went 9/10 pre 3.0 on NiM DF and DP (Damn you council) and are currently on HM Torque and HM Sword Squadron for 16 operation content. We only just started raiding as a fresh team last week and taking all of this information that both of you provided, I felt comfortable leading the group. I ended up delegating call outs to certain people and to keep myself sane, let the Barrel tank worry about things such as whether these next adds were or weren't to be mass barraged or volleyed to death. I do have a few more questions and feedback from all of your, well feedback.

 

Though I have tailored by responses per person, I set the title next to your names so everyone can see what I'm having problems on at the moment or have question on how to better execute with my lead style.

 

@Vaidinah (On keeping morale high during multiple wipes):

 

I really like the idea of reminding the raid to use their personal cooldowns and further to use them on the relevant damage type. I've been trying to figure out however how to keep the energy of the group going after each wipe. Sometimes we get really close to a kill, then regress back to 30%. Previous raid leads would be more stern than I would care for, but I am wondering how you handle wipes to mechanics that people have been reminded about on multiple occasions without zapping or spoiling the fun of the raid.

 

On the plus side, I've encouraged feedback between healers and the tanks in regards to optimum phases for the raid to use cooldowns, when certain mechanics are about to go out, etc. and have gotten feedback that even if some of my call outs are early (I try to give 2-3 seconds warning so people can anticipate the mechanic) it has helped healers and dps focus more on their jobs and help them snap out of the occasional tunneling.

 

 

@Oxidsed (on setting expectations for raiders and balancing raider's egos with what needs to get done) :

 

As you listed a few things a raidlead should be doing, I'll let you know what happens in our group. First, I ended up calling most if not all the strats with our co-raid lead calling out very obvious mechanics (ie- mass barrage during bulo) while I kept up communication about spawning mine carts, load lifters, adds, and outlining and setting boundaries where "danger zones" existed if people stepped in them while the tanks were doing their thing. In terms of augmentation, rotations, that is evidenced by parse data and a quick look over of people before the go in to the raid. We've run several alt runs to make sure most if not our whole team is in full 6 set bonuses.

 

I'm having trouble with helping others get brought up to my own expectations. I trust people not to stand in bad circles and if they do, wonder if they're having an off night, or if the strategy needs to be altered or if a better explanation is in need. When a wipe happens to what I would believe would be simple mechanics and when we go back in to the fight, I am sometimes silent or tell the group "Let's do the same thing, but please focus on survival" but sometimes I have to fight back the urge to tell people to stop dying and be more situationally aware.

 

 

@Torvai (On my agreement that "Main Tank" is an antiquated term and analyzing damage profiles):

 

First, I agree. Main Tank and Off Tank in this context however refer mainly to which tank will be starting on adds or vice versa. On some fights, we have one tank solely (even on HM) focus on adds and one focus on the boss using tactics at certain moments so that mechanics that would normally force a taunt swap last for only a few seconds instead of a full on role reversal.

 

Second, I have been pouring over multiple parses in terms of damage types, but what usually ends up killing us is people panicking and not rolling a cooldown at all vs. not using the appropriate one. Thoughts? Suggestions?

 

 

Finally, I don't know if I'm just self deprecating but I don't feel like I am necessarily the best tank out there. Other guardian tanks have mitigated or done more damage then I have where my perceived advantage is being able to call out and analyze the entire raid situation outside of just the tank role and worry about positioning for dps, healers, and the tanks. My insecurity I guess stems from, once the raid catches up and memorizes or gets very familiar with the fights, is my role then over to move over for those who can do it better? I'm not saying this will happen, it's just what goes on in my head. However after reading several "how to tank" posts, I have read that several tanks and raid leads say that DtPS in terms of tanking is a poor metric of analyziing just what a tank is doing in terms of a fight as whoever pulls first or second can drastically affect those numbers. Thank you for taking the time to reply and thank you again for your feedback as it is always appreciated.

[Oxidsed]

@Oxidsed (on setting expectations for raiders and balancing raider's egos with what needs to get done) :

 

As you listed a few things a raidlead should be doing, I'll let you know what happens in our group. First, I ended up calling most if not all the strats with our co-raid lead calling out very obvious mechanics (ie- mass barrage during bulo) while I kept up communication about spawning mine carts, load lifters, adds, and outlining and setting boundaries where "danger zones" existed if people stepped in them while the tanks were doing their thing. In terms of augmentation, rotations, that is evidenced by parse data and a quick look over of people before the go in to the raid. We've run several alt runs to make sure most if not our whole team is in full 6 set bonuses.

 

I'm having trouble with helping others get brought up to my own expectations. I trust people not to stand in bad circles and if they do, wonder if they're having an off night, or if the strategy needs to be altered or if a better explanation is in need. When a wipe happens to what I would believe would be simple mechanics and when we go back in to the fight, I am sometimes silent or tell the group "Let's do the same thing, but please focus on survival" but sometimes I have to fight back the urge to tell people to stop dying and be more situationally aware.

 

 

@Ziggy - Love the questions you are asking! Sounds like you have the basics well and truly covered in terms of what you do each night, fight, etc, what I would call the "hard" or observable skills (you can inspect gear, check logs, see where ppl are standing, etc). Good Now it seems you are trying to work through the "soft" skills of managing a group, this stuff takes time

 

In terms of bringing others up to the expectations, it is a case of communicating them in a way that others understand, and this is likely to be different for each person in your team, especially a 16 man team. Some ppl need to be told up front, direct, like a truck hit them; some need to be asked; some need to be gently prodded, repeatedly; others need to be encouraged to think of it as their own idea before they agree... you get the idea. The main issue here is you never compromise on your standards, else you undermine all the efforts you have put in to setting them - just be nice about it! One thing to do here is explain why, people are generally more accepting if they understand why a certain limit, boundary, expectation is in place. If you can't explain why, you need to question if that expectation is valid in the first place.

 

It is good to trust people to be doing the right thing, and no one likes to be singled out for doing the wrong thing. There are always two ways say things - generally one positive and one negative (trivial example: "don't all talk at once" vs "please one person talk at a time"). If all someone ever hears is no, don't, bad, negative, negative, life gets pretty bleak. Yes, do, please, I like the way you did that, thanks, If we could all try to... tend to set a much happier atmosphere.

 

A few ways I get around this - first is to be honest, admit your own mistakes ("sorry, missed my cooldown and ran through fire, lets go again and I'll get my bit right this time"). This starts the process of opening up communication and setting the tone for the group. Hopefully 2 things will happen, others may realise they also did the wrong thing and will quietly fix it and hope no one notices next pull (although you might notice and can encourage them afterwards or via /w); and better yet, others will start to admit their mistakes and initiate the discussion after a wipe.

Second, after a wipe, always ask the group "what happened" or "how come" (but never "what went wrong", as that is negative and sounds accusing). Even if you know or saw what the issues were, you want others to identify them as well so they are not blindly waiting to be told what to do - you want them to be proactive, observant, involved. (Obviously you need to steer the conversation if it gets off course here!) Get buy in for new ideas, suggestions, etc, but then you make the call for any adjustments to strats to ensure agreement: "Great idea Oxi, let's try that on this attempt". This helps balance the team involvement and the leader providing the direction. Initially you may not get many answers, but this should come over time and ppl start to realise their input is valued.

 

I would suggest it is not helpful to be silent if you have seen something obviously wrong (e.g. someone ran into fire, not out...), chances are someone else saw it, and if it happens again and you wipe, you have just wasted 10 mins of 15 ppls time that night, and other team members can start to get annoyed. Either talk in general terms ("saw a few ppl in the fire, remember we said to run south when this ability happens" - be specific in instructions as per your strat); you can /w someone (saves them embarrassment); or if you see it mid fight, call it as it happens, the person will move and everyone else is too busy with what they are doing to have a go at that person. Only if it happens repeatedly do I call someone specifically on it in-between fights and then make sure I move onto a positive about something we did right in the fight, so you don't give anyone else the chance to jump in and ridicule the offender. This gets easier once ppl realise you are only trying to improve the group, not single out individuals. It is all about valuing ppl, their input, celebrating success, maintaining those standards and focusing on the areas to approve - I know that sounds cliche and wanky, but you do it in a way that suits your style and personality - trust me, I would never use those words when I speak!

 

Hope you find that wall of text helpful, it is helping me think through how I lead as type it!

Please ask if you have more questions.

 

PS - as I said before, the fact you are asking means you value the need to improve, this speaks volumes! In terms of success as a leader, I would measure that in the soft things: how well does the group get on, does the group argue or discuss constructively, does the group volunteer suggestions, mats, cash to help others gear up, are they working together, and most importantly, is everyone having fun?!?!?! - remember, it is only a game to be enjoyed! Your value as a raid leader will only be measured on the nights you are not there and everyone says something was missing from that raid...

I would base your success at tanking not on DtPS, but on questions like "did I die (cos I missed a CD, or stood somewhere bad)", "did someone else die cos a mob hit them and not me", "was I in the right place at the right time"? i.e. Was I doing my job correctly? The problem with DtPS is that everyone has a part to play in minimising dmg received and reducing stress on healers, not just tanks. Ensure you gear is sorted, you know your class and you know the strats and fights - you can't go too far wrong as a tank

Edited January 20, 2015 by Oxidsed
Typo's!

[Vaidinah]

@Vaidinah (On keeping morale high during multiple wipes):

 

I really like the idea of reminding the raid to use their personal cooldowns and further to use them on the relevant damage type. I've been trying to figure out however how to keep the energy of the group going after each wipe. Sometimes we get really close to a kill, then regress back to 30%. Previous raid leads would be more stern than I would care for, but I am wondering how you handle wipes to mechanics that people have been reminded about on multiple occasions without zapping or spoiling the fun of the raid.

 

On the plus side, I've encouraged feedback between healers and the tanks in regards to optimum phases for the raid to use cooldowns, when certain mechanics are about to go out, etc. and have gotten feedback that even if some of my call outs are early (I try to give 2-3 seconds warning so people can anticipate the mechanic) it has helped healers and dps focus more on their jobs and help them snap out of the occasional tunneling.

 

When it comes to regression, it can definitely be very frustrating especially when victory feels so close. What I've done in the past is simply have most people take a break, try to talk to one of the other leaders, and discuss what we can do to get people to focus on their priorities for a fight. I've had a good deal of success with different things like changing our strategy a bit to compensate for a particular player's problems and helping people out with the timings of certain events. Personally, I don't like having popouts from a parser during a fight in general, but using the "Stat Overview" one from Parsec or "Personal Stats" from Starparse is great for just knowing what the time is in the fight. With the timer available on-screen, players can figure out or be told when events are triggered during a fight.

 

For example, on Bulo HM, the first set of Pirate adds spawns at around 20 seconds into the fight and then 45 seconds after each time. This means any player picking up a barrel should know they should get the barrel to be ready for the adds when they spawn. Load Lifters and Exonium Carts spawn roughly every 30 seconds so melee players should know to back off the boss if near their spawn point to avoid them exploding on every melee character. With the timer from those popouts around, it shouldn't take long for people to be prepared for the mechanics in the fight.

 

One strategy I thought of, but haven't done yet is simply try to tell people to turn off their parser. So many mistakes come from DPS who tunnel with their rotation so it'd just be one less distraction. Realistically, there aren't many fights that are significant DPS checks, especially in 16 man, so focusing on big numbers instead of doing what's best for the team is a common problem.

 

Finally, I don't know if I'm just self deprecating but I don't feel like I am necessarily the best tank out there. Other guardian tanks have mitigated or done more damage then I have where my perceived advantage is being able to call out and analyze the entire raid situation outside of just the tank role and worry about positioning for dps, healers, and the tanks. My insecurity I guess stems from, once the raid catches up and memorizes or gets very familiar with the fights, is my role then over to move over for those who can do it better? I'm not saying this will happen, it's just what goes on in my head. However after reading several "how to tank" posts, I have read that several tanks and raid leads say that DtPS in terms of tanking is a poor metric of analyziing just what a tank is doing in terms of a fight as whoever pulls first or second can drastically affect those numbers. Thank you for taking the time to reply and thank you again for your feedback as it is always appreciated.

 

I would say that getting players to do what they need to do is a generally more useful skill for a team than your particular performance as a tank mitigating damage. Tanking is mostly about performing mechanics and holding aggro so just help organize your team and get them to learn the mechanics in the fight first. Once they understand the fight, you can focus on improving your own performance with lowering DTPS and increasing your team's DPS (including your own) on the fight.

[Torvai]

@Torvai (On my agreement that "Main Tank" is an antiquated term and analyzing damage profiles):

 

First, I agree. Main Tank and Off Tank in this context however refer mainly to which tank will be starting on adds or vice versa. On some fights, we have one tank solely (even on HM) focus on adds and one focus on the boss using tactics at certain moments so that mechanics that would normally force a taunt swap last for only a few seconds instead of a full on role reversal.

 

Second, I have been pouring over multiple parses in terms of damage types, but what usually ends up killing us is people panicking and not rolling a cooldown at all vs. not using the appropriate one. Thoughts? Suggestions?

Ofc there are fights like Underlurker, where you only need one tank. But then you wouldn't refer to him/her as maintank, but rather just as tank

Then there are fights where you need the second tank just for adds or something like this(revanite commanders maybe) then you have a "main tank", yeah. But the most fights in swtor are things like Bulo where it doesn't even matter which tank has aggro

 

On cooldowns, it's really just a trial and error for the most part, since parsec only shows you the damage type, not the attack type. You can guess alot of this, for example kinetic is always M/R, while elemental/internal is almost always F/T(there exist attacks in the game, like DF Slingers Dirty Shot that are ranged attacks but deal both weapon and internal damage, but they are really rare), but then you got energy damage, which can be both M/R or F/T.

In this cases I'd suggest to take a closer look at your damage taken tab in parsec. It shows if you defended against an attack or not. If so, it's M/R and you can use a cooldown that's suited for this kind of attack(Saber Ward for example). And imho any cooldown is better than no cooldown at all

Maybe just remind your raid now and then to use their cooldowns, dunno.

Maybe one should also note that cooldowns like Sages panic bubble, that are basically a self stun, should be timed on certain attacks(the big white grenade @sword squadron, or the red circles @Bestia for example), so they keep healing/dpsing up until a second before it explodes, pop their cd and then keep on going. This allows for maximum uptime

 

 

However after reading several "how to tank" posts, I have read that several tanks and raid leads say that DtPS in terms of tanking is a poor metric of analyziing just what a tank is doing in terms of a fight as whoever pulls first or second can drastically affect those numbers. Thank you for taking the time to reply and thank you again for your feedback as it is always appreciated.

Well, your main task as tank is to make sure you hold threat(ie you eat the damage for everyone else) and positioning of every mob in a fight. Keeping you alive is the healers job, simple as that.

Ofc a good tank tries to minimize dtps overall. But on the other hand, what kills us tanks isn't normally dtps over a complete fight, but that one or two big hits you take while everyone else is low on life too(because of raidwide aoe, people camped voidzones, etc).

So make sure to hold threat on your assigned target, make sure nobody else eats any damage that is avoidable(ie turn a cleaving mob away), don't stand in stupid, use cooldowns if neccessary.

If you already do this, I'd consider you a really good tank

 

Maybe others put out higher dps, or have a lower dtps in certain fights, but who cares?

As an example the walkers: On our firstkill on HM I had ~3,4k dtps. I went in last week with my second guardian tank, where the left side of gear is utter crap and had ~ 2,9(I think)k dtps while doing higher dps than on my main guardian in the firstkill.

Why? Heck I don't even know

What I want to say is, it always depends on the fight, how well you know it and how awake and concentrated you are. Basically: practice makes perfect