Realistic options to fix Merc PVP

[ToMyMa]

This may seem unoriginal, but Jesus Christ, just copy/paste force barrier already! That's the only thing we need!

[Floplag]

Sigh... you completely missed the point I was trying to make. It has nothing to do with the class and everything to do with the poster. My view point isn't twisted, phat maban's is.

 

You continue to say things which are basically L2P, in the face of literally EVERYONE else telling you you are wrong. This is not a L2P issue, it is a class issue.

 

But lets be clear so you can dispense with the bull....

-is the problem our damage? no, were strong there. Not the strongest mind you but strong.

-is the problem even in 1v1 fight? No, not really, I still win most of those, though some are of course much harder than others. Who the Hades cares about 1v1 anyone aside from a few tards camping Tat looking to duel all the time. How often is any fight in PvP actually 1v1?

 

So.. what is the problem? Simple, time to kill TTK under focus. Focus being defined as having more than one attacker. Under focus, we die significantly faster than anyone else. We have no skill that lets us drop pressure, or give said attackers any reason to swap targets or stop focusing us as virtually every other class does, nor do we have the volume of mitigation that others do. We do not have a reflect, a passive self heal, a roll, a vanish.... none of the above. Once engaged, we will die.

 

Now, that having been said it is not unique to us, generally speaking almost anyone will die under focus.... what is unique however is that TTK being significantly shorter than any other class. We can die in very few GCDs and in 4 mans and ranked will generally be the first one targeted because of this unless we are guarded and/or have a tank smart enough to guard swap as needed. This is why we get focused in pvp. There is nothing we can do to change this fact... nothing. Since your expertise appears to be in 1v1 (lol) you dont seem to be aware of this and are determined not to listen to anyone on the matter.

 

Oh, and for the record, your comment on overrides and heals... yeah, no longer works since our viable heals that we used to use this trick on now have an extended cooldown. So i go back to the beginning when i said you were working on outdated facts, and you proved me right.

[TezMoney]

You continue to say things which are basically L2P, in the face of literally EVERYONE else telling you you are wrong. This is not a L2P issue, it is a class issue.

 

Just so you know, I stopped reading at this point, since you too clearly missed the point I was trying to make. I never once made a L2P comment or even inferred anything about his skill level. I was talking about his entitled attitude of "my class shouldn't be targeted first." Key word: "SHOULDN'T"

 

There's nothing wrong with not wanted to be the focus of every match, but quite another to think you're being wronged because you are.

 

But hey... don't let me disturb you, you seem to enjoy the view from that soap box. I'm sure your post was full of great info and not at all regurgitating the same complaints over and over.

Edited January 12, 2015 by TezMoney

[Floplag]

Just so you know, I stopped reading at this point, since you too clearly missed the point I was trying to make. I never once made a L2P comment or even inferred anything about his skill level. I was talking about his entitled attitude of "my class shouldn't be targeted first." Key word: "SHOULDN'T"

 

There's nothing wrong with not wanted to be the focus of every match, but quite another to think you're being wronged because you are.

 

But hey... don't let me disturb you, you seem to enjoy the view from that soap box. I'm sure your post was full of great info and not at all regurgitating the same complaints over and over.

 

No, it isnt wrong when its the obvious choice anytime a merc is in the match.. that isnt entitlement, that isnt desire, thats balance. If a merc is on the list in 4 mans (ranked or regs), they are the target, period. you know that as well as i do, or should. You seem like a relatively smart guy, but how you can not think that this is a balance issue i cannot comprehend. Why else would you automatically target that class?

Aside from that, you can ignore the facts all you want, doesn't change them.

[TezMoney]

No, it isnt wrong when its the obvious choice anytime a merc is in the match.. that isnt entitlement, that isnt desire, thats balance. If a merc is on the list in 4 mans (ranked or regs), they are the target, period. you know that as well as i do, or should. You seem like a relatively smart guy, but how you can not think that this is a balance issue i cannot comprehend. Why else would you automatically target that class?

Aside from that, you can ignore the facts all you want, doesn't change them.

 

When did I say there was no balance issue? What "facts" have I ignored? You seem to be trying to turn me into some strawman for augments I've never even made so can feel like you're making relevant points.

 

So lets actually get back to the point I actually made:

 

The only reason people feel that mercs shouldn't be targeted first is due to their frustration at being pounced on at the beginning of almost every match. I still don't see how it's "wrong", cuz if not mercs, what AC is it "right" to target first? I mean think about it, even if mercs got something equivalent to the sorc bubble... they'd still be chosen first when there are no snipers on their team, because their ranged. Ranged classes all put out way too much damage if left unmolested, so as far as dps goes you have to check them first. Would mercs survive longer? Sure. Would mercs be more viable in solo? You bet. Would it change the hierarchy of who dies first? Not by much.

 

Even if it did, then snipers would be the obvious first choice. So by your logic, that's wrong so they get buffed, now it's back to mercs or sorcs. Do you see what I'm getting at? It's always gunna be some AC at the bottom. All the dev's can do is make the disparity as small as possible, but players will always suss out which of the 3 is most likely the easiest to kill. And it's going to suck for whatever AC that is in comparison to the others. It's not right OR wrong which class is the first targeted, nor does it necessarily correlate to balance.

 

Finally, in case you still try misconstrue this to fit into whatever you want to rant about: THIS IS A STATEMENT ABOUT PLAYER MENTALITY, NOT CLASS PERFORMANCE!!

Edited January 12, 2015 by TezMoney

[Floplag]

When did I say there was no balance issue? What "facts" have I ignored? You seem to be trying to turn me into some strawman for augments I've never even made so can feel like you're making relevant points.

 

So lets actually get back to the point I actually made:

 

The only reason people feel that mercs shouldn't be targeted first is due to their frustration at being pounced on at the beginning of almost every match. I still don't see how it's "wrong", cuz if not mercs, what AC is it "right" to target first? I mean think about it, even if mercs got something equivalent to the sorc bubble... they'd still be chosen first when there are no snipers on their team, because their ranged. Ranged classes all put out way too much damage if left unmolested, so as far as dps goes you have to check them first. Would mercs survive longer? Sure. Would mercs be more viable in solo? You bet. Would it change the hierarchy of who dies first? Not by much.

 

Even if it did, then snipers would be the obvious first choice. So by your logic, that's wrong so they get buffed, now it's back to mercs or sorcs. Do you see what I'm getting at? It's always gunna be some AC at the bottom. All the dev's can do is make the disparity as small as possible, but players will always suss out which of the 3 is most likely the easiest to kill. And it's going to suck for whatever AC that is in comparison to the others. It's not right OR wrong which class is the first targeted, nor does it necessarily correlate to balance.

 

Finally, in case you still try misconstrue this to fit into whatever you want to rant about: THIS IS A STATEMENT ABOUT PLAYER MENTALITY, NOT CLASS PERFORMANCE!!

 

No class should be so flawed in any manner that its very presence dictates the kill order, thats the problem. Im not sure how much clearer that can be made.

 

You compare us to snipers who have significantly more skills to affect that order than we do, its not an accurate comparison at all, youre reaching for straws.

 

You are right about what the devs can so, which is why i find this so confusion that they have completely ignored this AC when it really would be so simply to fix. A few very small adjustments would balance it, and yet they have chosen not to do so. Bu the disparity right now isnt small in this case, its huge, and its obvious.

 

To say its about mentality is to imply its a L2P issue, and its dead wrong. There is NOTHING i can do as a merc to change the perception above.. nothing. No matter how good i play, it only delays the inevitable. Many people i play with tell me im pretty good at it, even those against me... im sure there are better but still...

 

I have listed many reasons why this is the case and you just keep coming back with the same incorrect statements that show you don't understand the problem.

[TezMoney]

No class should be so flawed in any manner that its very presence dictates the kill order, thats the problem. Im not sure how much clearer that can be made.

You don't have to make yourself any clearer, I never argued against this point.

You compare us to snipers who have significantly more skills to affect that order than we do, its not an accurate comparison at all, youre reaching for straws.

No i didn't compare us to snipers. I merely posed a "what if" scenario.

To say its about mentality is to imply its a L2P issue, and its dead wrong. There is NOTHING i can do as a merc to change the perception above.. nothing. No matter how good i play, it only delays the inevitable. Many people i play with tell me im pretty good at it, even those against me... im sure there are better but still...

I never said or implied that, stop putting words in my mouth. The mentality issue I'm talking about and how mercs viability are not the same issue nor are they related, stop conflating them. I even put it in caps! How dense are you, really? You just make yourself look insecure, because you keep bringing up player skill when I didn't mention it once.

I have listed many reasons why this is the case and you just keep coming back with the same incorrect statements that show you don't understand the problem.

I know the reasons you feel the way you do, but again you are talking about a whole other subject than me. It doesn't matter if you don't agree with my opinions, they are my own, but clearly you don't even understand what I'm talking about anyway.

Edited January 13, 2015 by TezMoney

[Floplag]

OK, you keep saying we are talking about different points, so please clarify exactly what your points are?

You seem to be arguing that Mercs are fine and that the players are the issue, if this is not the case then clarify.

[TezMoney]

OK, you keep saying we are talking about different points, so please clarify exactly what your points are?

You seem to be arguing that Mercs are fine and that the players are the issue, if this is not the case then clarify.

 

I'm not I've explained it like 5 times! No where in any of my post did I even come close to saying mercs are fine or even mentioned their viability specifically. If you don't understand, please quote the actual line or lines that's convinced you of this and I'll try to clarify.

 

Otherwise, we'll just have to end the convo here. It's really not worth rehashing a simple quip this many times.

[Floplag]

I'm not I've explained it like 5 times! No where in any of my post did I even come close to saying mercs are fine or even mentioned their viability specifically. If you don't understand, please quote the actual line or lines that's convinced you of this and I'll try to clarify.

 

Otherwise, we'll just have to end the convo here. It's really not worth rehashing a simple quip this many times.

 

agreed, as i have no idea *** you are actually trying to say at this point, i think you are just being argumentative and i have better ways to spend the time

peace out

[TezMoney]

agreed, as i have no idea *** you are actually trying to say at this point, i think you are just being argumentative and i have better ways to spend the time

peace out

 

Uh... no, you started this little debate remember

[Hvostik]

hello

biggest problem - merc not have @oh sheet@ safe abilities. and anti-control abilites.

merc can`t do anything in focus - and because of this merc always 1target,

 

not phantom huge merc dps - maybe i ask big secret, all classes near top very close to each other with dps

like 4500-5000

BUT other classes can do this job under fire.

merc cant. (exept all ather forget about him like on Koozie videos). point. game over. (hi can on raid. or on papperdol on ship)

same with hiling, merc nearly imposible heal group under pressing. exept all ather forget about him. (

 

like healer - operative can @oh sheet@ vanish, flash, roll

sorc can @oh sheet@ bauble, shield, RUN, stels etc.

merc? crappy 25%DR and die

 

because of this no place merc in ranked pvp

 

 

1.make shield 40% 8 sec dura, 40 sec CD and immune to all control under it (merc) and shield can be castable

under CC like stun, blind, mes and choke tipe ablities (stan breaker), now this shield of nathing with 120! sec CD just jank.

2. electro-net mast be not dispelable - now slow effect dispelable

3. TM mast be instant cast but 2 sec CD (it not effected on dps but give us mobility)

3. jet boost must kik MUCH more and knock target down , (it now laughable, it kick 3 times less then dps jump, and grapple)

4. and very good idea sap like oper have @Rocket Punch immobilises the target for 4 seconds. The target has its damage reduced by 50% for 4s. or ae sap from Chaff Flare,

 

just compare merc anti-cc, @oh sheet@ and mobility abilities with assassins or with sorc, or oper

and again look on parse - dps THE SAME merc killed not because dps,

but because :

MERC=FRAG

Edited January 15, 2015 by Hvostik

[Hvostik]

the Defenses have 2 sides

active - like assassins with pre- counter- abilities

passive - like powertech tank shield absorb

 

but in pvp (not pve)

dps and healer chars need defenses too

glass canon can success if they have vanish hide roll or cover etc.

we already have active defense healer and dps, so

LETS make merc be passive dps

give him passive on 30 lvl - Exosceleton

it rise shield, absorb and deference on 100% chance to defense and shield 50%

CC abilities work 70% less on effect and time

 

and merc become sedge tank, and sedge healer

with passive defense.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Hvostik

[Hoppinswtor]

Mercs are basically fine. Just make chaff flare more useful (e.g. 40 percent defense chance for 6 seconds) and remove the cooldown on healing scan while increasing its heat cost slightly (just have tracer lock increase its potency like rail shot).

 

Mercs just need something to help vs. tunnel. They also need some slightly better off heals. That's all really.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Deckiller
fsaa

[Floplag]

Mercs are basically fine. Just make chaff flare more useful (e.g. 40 percent defense chance for 6 seconds) and remove the cooldown on healing scan while increasing its heat cost slightly (just have tracer lock increase its potency like rail shot).

 

Mercs just need something to help vs. tunnel. They also need some slightly better off heals. That's all really.

 

True, however that is significant and the crux of why we are where we are.

[Ryuku-sama]

hello

biggest problem - merc not have @oh sheet@ safe abilities. and anti-control abilites.

merc can`t do anything in focus - and because of this merc always 1target,

 

not phantom huge merc dps - maybe i ask big secret, all classes near top very close to each other with dps

like 4500-5000

BUT other classes can do this job under fire.

merc cant. (exept all ather forget about him like on Koozie videos). point. game over. (hi can on raid. or on papperdol on ship)

same with hiling, merc nearly imposible heal group under pressing. exept all ather forget about him. (

 

like healer - operative can @oh sheet@ vanish, flash, roll

sorc can @oh sheet@ bauble, shield, RUN, stels etc.

merc? crappy 25%DR and die

 

because of this no place merc in ranked pvp

 

 

1.make shield 40% 8 sec dura, 40 sec CD and immune to all control under it (merc) and shield can be castable

under CC like stun, blind, mes and choke tipe ablities (stan breaker), now this shield of nathing with 120! sec CD just jank.

2. electro-net mast be not dispelable - now slow effect dispelable

3. TM mast be instant cast but 2 sec CD (it not effected on dps but give us mobility)

3. jet boost must kik MUCH more and knock target down , (it now laughable, it kick 3 times less then dps jump, and grapple)

4. and very good idea sap like oper have @Rocket Punch immobilises the target for 4 seconds. The target has its damage reduced by 50% for 4s. or ae sap from Chaff Flare,

 

just compare merc anti-cc, @oh sheet@ and mobility abilities with assassins or with sorc, or oper

and again look on parse - dps THE SAME merc killed not because dps,

but because :

MERC=FRAG

 

WTB translation

[venomlash]

WTB translation

Hello!

The biggest problem with mercs is that they lack a super-good defensive cooldown and don't have as much CC available to them as do other classes.

Mercs don't have an anti-focus ability to force a hard switch in PvP, and therefore mercs are the first ones targeted.

 

It's not like mercs even do better damage than other classes; this might not be common knowledge, but all classes are pretty close to each other in terms of DPS.

BUT other classes can DPS even while being attacked!

Mercs can't DPS properly under pressure, but fights against ship dummies don't show that.

Healing is the same, mercs can't do good group healing while being attacked, but somehow people forget about it.

 

Other healers have better escape abilities.

Operatives can stealth out, flashbang people, or roll away.

Sorcs can use Force Barrier, can use Static Barrier, Force Speed to escape, or stealth.

Mercs can pop Energy Shield and that's it, and it doesn't protect them very well.

 

Because of this, mercs aren't viable in ranked PvP.

 

Suggestions:

1. Make Energy Shield increase damage reduction by 40% for 8 seconds (instead of 25% for 12 seconds), reduce its cooldown to 40 seconds, and make it grant CC immunity for mercs only (not for PTs) and allow it to be used while controlled so it acts as a second CC breaker. The current Energy Shield with its 120 second cooldown isn't good.

2. Using one's CC breaker shouldn't remove the hinder effect or the damage from Electro Net, but should just purge the slowing effect from it.

3. Make Tracer Missile instant but give it a 2 second cooldown, so Arsenal has better mobility.

3. Jet Boost should knock targets much further back and inflict a knockdown effect as well. It's not useful right now because it doesn't knock enemies far enough away that you're out of range of their grapple or leap abilities.

4. And to give mercs something like operatives' Flashbang, Rocket Punch should immobilize the target and make it do 50% less damage for 4 seconds. Either that or give that effect to Chaff Flare and make it affect all nearby enemies.

 

Compare the merc's ability to get out of CCs, survive being focused, and move quickly with those of assassins, sorcs, or operatives.

But if you look at a dummy parse, they're all about the same!

Mercs aren't bad because they have low DPS, but because they're an easy kill.

 

That's 2 million credits, please!

Note that I don't agree with what he says: I just translated it. That guy thinks that Sorcs can stealth, he wants to make Energy Shield hella OP, he completely ignores Kolto Overload as an "@OH SHEET@" ability, and he (strangest of all) wants to make knockbacks push enemies back by 30m so that they can't leap back to you. So yes, even translated from Moonspeak to English, his ideas are bad.

Edited January 20, 2015 by venomlash

[Ryuku-sama]

That's 2 million credits, please!

Note that I don't agree with what he says: I just translated it. That guy thinks that Sorcs can stealth, he wants to make Energy Shield hella OP, he completely ignores Kolto Overload as an "@OH SHEET@" ability, and he (strangest of all) wants to make knockbacks push enemies back by 30m so that they can't leap back to you. So yes, even translated from Moonspeak to English, his ideas are bad.

 

First laugh.... Merc are not far from the other specs.. IO DPS is ahead of the other specs by hundred. When you talk about DPS you're talking about a dummy test.

[cs_zoltan]

First laugh.... Merc are not far from the other specs.. IO DPS is ahead of the other specs by hundred. When you talk about DPS you're talking about a dummy test.

 

Yet it barely clings into viability in PVP

[Ryuku-sama]

Yet it barely clings into viability in PVP

 

It sure does. But sayign Merc DPS is even close to other rDPS is false.