Understanding differences, Force users.

[Maaruin]

I don't intend to say much to the general topic, but I have a somewhat hypothetical question:

 

I could be wrong but size I think does matter . I mean if size does not matter than Jedi would only need to be on a ship pushing other ships into eachother .

 

Heck the Emperor Palpatine could have destroyed the Rebel ships from his Throne lol .

But he didn't and I do think if he could (EU aside) he would have .

 

Could it be that the problem is that there are people on these ships who don't want it to be moved? Even if they are not Force sensitive, their will might influence the Force in some manner. So to move a manned space ship, you would have to use telekinesis and mind domination at the same time, and mind domination is a completely different matter. Moving a ship wreck or an asteroid on the other hand should be the same as moving a stone.

 

I doubt this is supported by the EU, but is there anything that directly contradicts it?

[LadyKulvax]

Eh.

 

Revan's got better accolades, Rituals are confirmed to be a bad basis to judge power on and really, Revan's still done better. Kun's entire ritual and absorption of Massassi was because he wanted to live forever as a spirit that could still affect the Mortal world, and he needed power... Revan's spirit managed to do it through mastery of the force and raw power alone (Yeh, apparently he learned how to do it? ) Now I know what you're thinking, Obi-Wan and other Jedi managed it.... Well Revan could actually affect the world around him, he drained and killed actual Revan and could still theoretically fight...

 

Honestly I don't know which is better, but I wouldn't put Kun even half a tier above him, if he is above him.

 

Kun didn't use a ritual at all to drain the Massassi he used the power he had just drained to start his ritual, they are two separate things. Read the actual comic panel and it states clearly he drained the Massassi first and then the ritual began. A suedo-Essence Transfer feat he managed without even learning the technique.

 

Kun has numerous statements referring to him as far superior to the others of his time, being far more powerful than Thon, Jeth, Baas, Ulic, Nomi, Urr and the rest is a very strong accolade.

 

She[Tionne] discovers the accounts of the Great Sith War, and learns that though Kun was far more powerful than any one other Jedi of the time, A combined force had defeated him. - The Jedi Academy Sourcebook

 

He is also stated to be the most powerful Sith Lord of his time and more powerful than all before him. This statement makes him more powerful than Ludo Kressh, Naga Sadow, Marka Ragnos, Sorzus Syn, Ajunta Pall, XoXaan, Vitiate(at this point), Karness Muur, Tulak Hord and all the others.

 

Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the rise of the Empire. Killed by an overwhelming force of Jedi, the spirit of Exar Kun survived across the vastness of time to challenge Luke Skywalker and a new group of Jedi trainees.

- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

 

Yet another very strong accolade.

 

He is placed above Vader twice, via my previously used Specters of the Past quote and the following:

 

The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun, it is extremely unlikely that any records survive, either on Yavin IV or elsewhere(Keep in mind that even Darth Vader, himself a Dark Lord of the Sith, did not know all there is to know about Sith powers.)

- The Jedi Academy Sourcebook

[tunewalker]

I don't intend to say much to the general topic, but I have a somewhat hypothetical question:

 

 

 

Could it be that the problem is that there are people on these ships who don't want it to be moved? Even if they are not Force sensitive, their will might influence the Force in some manner. So to move a manned space ship, you would have to use telekinesis and mind domination at the same time, and mind domination is a completely different matter. Moving a ship wreck or an asteroid on the other hand should be the same as moving a stone.

 

I doubt this is supported by the EU, but is there anything that directly contradicts it?

 

That is a very interesting theory, I could technically see some support here as organic beings have always seemed more difficult to effect then non-organic objects, mostly because as you say the resistance of the organic being. Its a good theory.

[Aurbere]

Kun's more powerful than Tulak Hord?

[tunewalker]

Kun's more powerful than Tulak Hord?

 

Maybe....

[Aurbere]

Maybe....

 

Rayla seems to have a source on it, so I'd love to see it.

[tunewalker]

Rayla seems to have a source on it, so I'd love to see it.

 

Both are making me rethink the Tiers to a degree, and much more agreeance with Rayla, moving Kun up and every one bellow him up one more as well, maybe some lower people that didnt make the tiers come up to fill the bottom, maybe the bottom disapears.

 

 

(saying this right now, thus far I think Rayla is playing my strings VERY well, apealing to my like for Feats in the way I like to see, (comparing it to other noteable characters they faced) and finding sources that place Exar Kun in places in comparison to other sith Lords.

 

Edit: I do appreciate everyone for this threads help. the discussions on how power is decided for some vs others. Sources that state people are over others (like the Malak vs Meetra discussion which was EXTREMELY enlightening for me thank you for that)

 

As usual of course there is the pure idea's of what something is that are very hard to change, and obviously I wont agree with every one but so much extra info that I wasnt quite aware of, and several confusions that I DID (and I knew I had them) have been rectified with your assistance. So thank you Rayla, Sel, and Rhyltran, you guys have been supremely helpful .

Edited December 5, 2014 by tunewalker

[LadyKulvax]

Rayla seems to have a source on it, so I'd love to see it.

 

I have already posted the quote, he was once the most powerful of the dark lords, later on he was surpassed by the Sith Emperor.

 

Kevin J. Anderson the author, stated Kun was the most powerful character he has ever created.

[tunewalker]

I have already posted the quote, he was once the most powerful of the dark lords, later on he was surpassed by the Sith Emperor.

 

Kevin J. Anderson the author, stated Kun was the most powerful character he has ever created.

 

Which also automatically places him above Kyp.... done moving him up a spot as it would be inappropriate to have them on the same tier.

[Aurbere]

I have already posted the quote, he was once the most powerful of the dark lords, later on he was surpassed by the Sith Emperor.

 

Kevin J. Anderson the author, stated Kun was the most powerful character he has ever created.

 

Oh right, thanks!

[fellblade]

I Think that this is a good exercise and that tiers are perhaps a better way to judge things - as oftentimes things are so Close between characters - that it is hard to Separate them and definitively place one above the other.

 

The Only thing I would say (having played all the Stories) - is that I believe that the HOT, Wrath, Nox and Barsenthor should probably all be on the same tier (Whatever that tier may be).

[SkyCakeLight]

Thanks for the post! I honestly don't know a lot about Star Wars outside of the movies. Like, I never knew the Emperor has a name! So, I Googled the name and read the Wookieepedia about him. Actually, pretty awesome! I didn't know he was immortal. I thought that the Emperor was just replaced every now and then, but the Sith that took his place was now known as the Emperor and whoever he was before was forgotten to give the illusion as an immortal Emperor.

 

Can he be killed? Or, defeated? Does this ever happen? I never read a SW book... if it does happen, I want to read that series!

 

Also, is there a Wookiee Jedi? I remember many years ago while at a book store, seeing a cover with a Wookiee on it holding a lightsaber.

 

I could just Google these answers, but I'd rather talk to you guys and gals about it!

[Rhyltran]

Thanks for the post! I honestly don't know a lot about Star Wars outside of the movies. Like, I never knew the Emperor has a name! So, I Googled the name and read the Wookieepedia about him. Actually, pretty awesome! I didn't know he was immortal. I thought that the Emperor was just replaced every now and then, but the Sith that took his place was now known as the Emperor and whoever he was before was forgotten to give the illusion as an immortal Emperor.

 

Can he be killed? Or, defeated? Does this ever happen? I never read a SW book... if it does happen, I want to read that series!

 

Also, is there a Wookiee Jedi? I remember many years ago while at a book store, seeing a cover with a Wookiee on it holding a lightsaber.

 

I could just Google these answers, but I'd rather talk to you guys and gals about it!

 

Vitiate does die at some point but no we don't know how. That's what this game will show at some point. There was a wookie jedi but then lucas stepped in and said no more wookie jedi to be created. Now that he's out of the picture that might change. The current emperor can "live" forever but he's not invincible. He can be killed if someone is powerful enough or if he gets overwhelmed.

[cs_zoltan]

Also, is there a Wookiee Jedi? I remember many years ago while at a book store, seeing a cover with a Wookiee on it holding a lightsaber.

 

I could just Google these answers, but I'd rather talk to you guys and gals about it!

 

Yes, his name is Tyvokka.

[tunewalker]

I think I have found something else from my top that was lost in translation.

 

 

Books> Source books> Games.

 

Even the numbers of mobs in a game can be a game mechanic.

 

To better illustrate what I am talking about. I consider the events as depicted in KoToR and KoToR 2 and ToR to be about as accurate to way the events went down as Super Return of the Jedi is to the events of Return of the Jedi. For those that dont know in Super Return of the Jedi for SNES you storm the Second Death Star Lightsaber in hand defeating countless storm troopers, then fight and defeat Vader, and immidiately after wards, fight and defeat Sidious Himself. Another example of gameplay that was there for sake of making a good game. Force Unleashed (star destroyer, and fighting sidious anyone). RPG's require mobs to grind. The Mobs arent cannon. the only thing that is cannon are the Cut Scenes and the over all results, and not even all of those are cannon.

 

So when I say books> Source Books> games, I dont just mean that if there was a book of the events of a game the book takes precendents, I mean if there was EVER a depiction of a game character IN a book, the books depiction of that character is the MOST ACCURATE version of that character, any discrepencies between what the character in the book is depicted as, and what the character in the game is depicted as is easily waved off and explained in 4 words, It is a game. As such it needs to be fun to play. Source books are also second hand usually, and often times they are Campaign guides or Source books for Table top RPG's.... which are also games, so they are only slightly more accurate in character depiction.

 

In other words, It doesnt matter what Revan does in 3.0 he is a less accurate version, and the events in the game are there for the sake of making a good game. (also re-reading it, I get the sense that fight is not Wrath exclusive, if not then he wasnt there, nor were any of the other PC, nothing is cannon for them except the class stories which end at 50 and MAYBE the class specific stuff in 3.0, even then, its a game the accuracy of the events isnt all there.)

Edited December 6, 2014 by tunewalker

[RTCBrad]

In light of this expansion Revan should most certainly be in A or B it's pretty undeniable at this point. The Revan haters that seem to roam this forum need to accept it sooner or later .

 

It took a team, of the most powerful, skilful and influential people in the galaxy to bring down half of Revan and even then he wasn't beaten he voluntarily rejoined with the other half of himself.

Edited December 8, 2014 by RTCBrad

[Rhyltran]

In light of this expansion Revan should most certainly be in A or B it's pretty undeniable at this point. The Revan haters that seem to roam this forum need to accept it sooner or later .

 

It took a team, of the most powerful, skilful and influential people in the galaxy to bring down half of Revan and even then he wasn't beaten he voluntarily rejoined with the other half of himself.

 

Not knocking Revan but no he was beaten. There's a reason he rejoined with the other half of himself. He was holding his arm, on his knees, going on and on about how defeating the Emperor should have been his destiny. He was doing this because he lost. Not because he was in a position where he was winning. We had already defeated him by that point. However, your point about it taking some of the best of republic/empire to bring him down is to be noted.

[mefit]

Not knocking Revan but no he was beaten. There's a reason he rejoined with the other half of himself. He was holding his arm, on his knees, going on and on about how defeating the Emperor should have been his destiny. He was doing this because he lost. Not because he was in a position where he was winning. We had already defeated him by that point. However, your point about it taking some of the best of republic/empire to bring him down is to be noted.

 

Not to mention that was half of Revan , not him in his whole.

I found the story Weird and coming off like Hellraiser "Hell on Earth" where PinHead ( Actor also does the Voice for the Emperor) was split in two with his evil half causing all the issues ( Like the living Revan half) and the Good side pulling him back into Balance.

 

Who knows what would have been if Revan was whole .

 

I personally wish Revan would have died in the Revan Novel with Meetra or the Foundry ,

 

 

In light of this expansion Revan should most certainly be in A or B it's pretty undeniable at this point. The Revan haters that seem to roam this forum need to accept it sooner or later .

 

It took a team, of the most powerful, skilful and influential people in the galaxy to bring down half of Revan and even then he wasn't beaten he voluntarily rejoined with the other half of himself.

 

 

I think people have been waiting for a definition beyond everything of what Revan was able to do .

Some of the people who been posting in this area of the forums I find have been lighter on attacking the Character , some even seem to have come around .

 

I found after the Revan expansion that really I was a Darth Revan fan who is long dead since KotoR 1 .

 

But Revan Expansion did show how far Revan's abilities were .

Still he is not the Emperor nor was he ever able to beat him .

 

Edited December 8, 2014 by mefit

[mefit]

HoT should be below Revan , seeing how it took him/her and the best of the Empire and Republic to take down "Half" of Revan .

Clearly the story end of the game , not mechanics .

 

Not saying move Revan up with Exar Kun either

Edited December 8, 2014 by mefit

[tunewalker]

HoT should be below Revan , seeing how it took him/her and the best of the Empire and Republic to take down "Half" of Revan .

Clearly the story end of the game , not mechanics .

 

Not saying move Revan up with Exar Kun either

 

No he wasnt, none of the Player Characters were present. I have expained this multiple times, that is a planetary quest not a class quest meaning all characters can do it (we already have Sel confirming teh Wrath was there) in other words NONE OF THE PCs ARE THERE. The battle itself is questionable as to being cannon or not even. If there were even 6 people there or just 5. The only story stuff that is CANNON to the characters is the CLASS story quests, none of the planetary quests regardless of expansion are cannon. If it can be done with any of hte classes its Non Cannon.

 

As I said before the most accurate representation of a character is in the Book. This would be the Revan Novel for Revan, all game itterations are inaccurate by comparison (IE it doesnt matter what revan does in 3.0 it is a less accurate representation of the character and the events surrounding the character by comparison to the book's version. It is done for the purpose of making a game that is all)

Edited December 8, 2014 by tunewalker

[mefit]

No he wasnt, none of the Player Characters were present. I have expained this multiple times, that is a planetary quest not a class quest meaning all characters can do it (we already have Sel confirming teh Wrath was there) in other words NONE OF THE PCs ARE THERE. The battle itself is questionable as to being cannon or not even. If there were even 6 people there or just 5. The only story stuff that is CANNON to the characters is the CLASS story quests, none of the planetary quests regardless of expansion are cannon. If it can be done with any of hte classes its Non Cannon.

 

As I said before the most accurate representation of a character is in the Book. This would be the Revan Novel for Revan, all game itterations are inaccurate by comparison (IE it doesnt matter what revan does in 3.0 it is a less accurate representation of the character and the events surrounding the character by comparison to the book's version. It is done for the purpose of making a game that is all)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pECjxNnUhJw

 

 

Lets see : Darth Marr (Possibly the strongest Sithlord outside of the player Characters)

(^ oh and outside the Emperor in before that is said)

Satele Shan (Possibly the strongest Jedi outside of the player Characters)

Theron Shan

Shae Vizle

Lana Beniko

Jakarro

 

Not to mention troopers .

 

 

We are clearly just talking about story end of it . Which to my belief at this moment holds as much water as any Book surrounding the subject as it is all at this point not Canon .

Really .

But we can be clear on this .

 

With the help of those I named , it took them to beat "HALF" Revan which is not mechanics but pure story .

 

The Story would be closer to a Canon than the Mechanics that went into or was involved in the fight .

 

Granted you can make up the rules as you see fit as it is your thread and debate .

 

EDIT:

But if we are going to discredit the Story Scenes surrounding the Revan fight , we can and should discredit all characters , stories scenes , and just about everything SWTOR not in a Book .

That inclues all Player Characters .

Edited December 8, 2014 by mefit

[tunewalker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pECjxNnUhJw

 

 

Lets see : Darth Marr (Possibly the strongest Sithlord outside of the player Characters)

(^ oh and outside the Emperor in before that is said)

Satele Shan (Possibly the strongest Jedi outside of the player Characters)

Theron Shan

Shae Vizle

Lana Beniko

Jakarro

 

Not to mention troopers .

 

 

We are clearly just talking about story end of it . Which to my belief at this moment holds as much water as any Book surrounding the subject as it is all at this point not Canon .

Really .

But we can be clear on this .

 

With the help of those I named , it took them to beat "HALF" Revan which is not mechanics but pure story .

 

The Story would be closer to a Canon than the Mechanics that went into or was involved in the fight .

 

Granted you can make up the rules as you see fit as it is your thread and debate .

 

EDIT:

But if we are going to discredit the Story Scenes surrounding the Revan fight , we can and should discredit all characters , stories scenes , and just about everything SWTOR not in a Book .

That inclues all Player Characters .

 

Story Scene's are fine, and its half of "revan's Mind" in my interpratation not half of Revan's body. Since I wouldnt be sure how that would work. We know that they went in and they beat him.... nothing else is known really, And I am not discrediting that, but that doesnt mean it actually would have or should have taken all of them nor does it mean that the book isnt the more accurate representation of the characters abilities as I still believe it to be. I honestly believe that Revan would have been capable of holding his own against those members, but ultimately losing even WITH the tiers as is.

 

While it is my thread, the purpose of the thread was never the Tiers. it was to understand the different view points to come from it. Which is why such a conversation about YOUR veiw point IS PERFECT for this thread , it is welcomed it is wanted it is neccisary as that is the point.

 

For you Game Itterations of a character= Book itterations of a Character. For me Book Iterations are more accurate followed by Source books, followed by Game depictions. Simply because I have played games like Super Return of the Jedi, which show just how wildly the story in the games can be different from the actual story.

 

 

Edit: if you check edit 5 I believe I have already moved the HoT down to Tier D.

Edited December 8, 2014 by tunewalker

[mefit]

Story Scene's are fine, and its half of "revan's Mind" in my interpratation not half of Revan's body. Since I wouldnt be sure how that would work. We know that they went in and they beat him.... nothing else is known really, And I am not discrediting that, but that doesnt mean it actually would have or should have taken all of them nor does it mean that the book isnt the more accurate representation of the characters abilities as I still believe it to be. I honestly believe that Revan would have been capable of holding his own against those members, but ultimately losing even WITH the tiers as is.

 

While it is my thread, the purpose of the thread was never the Tiers. it was to understand the different view points to come from it. Which is why such a conversation about YOUR veiw point IS PERFECT for this thread , it is welcomed it is wanted it is neccisary as that is the point.

 

For you Game Itterations of a character= Book itterations of a Character. For me Book Iterations are more accurate followed by Source books, followed by Game depictions. Simply because I have played games like Super Return of the Jedi, which show just how wildly the story in the games can be different from the actual story.

 

 

Edit: if you check edit 5 I believe I have already moved the HoT down to Tier D.

 

What could you do with "Half" your mind ?

Would your Body be at it's fullest without your full ability to use your Mind ?

 

I have come down to the conclusion

A Revan was ruined before the Book

B Would been Happier if the Book was the ending and the final Revan

 

But I cannot have it my way in any instances and have to fully watch as what was possibly my favorite Star Wars Character become literally a Crazy mess which is swinging me back to Exar Kun as he has yet to be ruined .

 

But it is to my belief and opinions will vary

1. Revan was closer to himself in the book at his full state than the Foundry .

2 Revan 3.0's Body had power , skill , but lacked the wisdom to use it and command it .

 

When I said it was your thread and rules , it was not a dig . I respect your views like others .

The fact you put Revan in tier C is earth shattering compared to the discussions that went on in these very forums a year ago .

 

But at this point , as long as it is a CutScene or written , I believe it now holds as much weight as a Book .

Granted we are likely to never get the set in stone version of what happened until the game is dead .

I hope sooner .

 

Before anyone brings me down to a simple Fanboy , I am not in any form saying Revan is more powerful than Exar Kun or the Emperor who clearly is on a whole another level .

Until something is shown to put Revan ahead of Exar Kun , I will believe Exar is just better and more experienced in many different parts of the force.

 

Maybe HoT will grow and become more powerful than Revan , who knows these days . It just as of right now , it is not my belief he is .

[tunewalker]

What could you do with "Half" your mind ?

Would your Body be at it's fullest without your full ability to use your Mind ?

 

I have come down to the conclusion

A Revan was ruined before the Book

B Would been Happier if the Book was the ending and the final Revan

 

But I cannot have it my way in any instances and have to fully watch as what was possibly my favorite Star Wars Character become literally a Crazy mess which is swinging me back to Exar Kun as he has yet to be ruined .

 

But it is to my belief and opinions will vary

1. Revan was closer to himself in the book at his full state than the Foundry .

2 Revan 3.0's Body had power , skill , but lacked the wisdom to use it and command it .

 

When I said it was your thread and rules , it was not a dig . I respect your views like others .

The fact you put Revan in tier C is earth shattering compared to the discussions that went on in these very forums a year ago .

 

But at this point , as long as it is a CutScene or written , I believe it now holds as much weight as a Book .

Granted we are likely to never get the set in stone version of what happened until the game is dead .

I hope sooner .

 

Before anyone brings me down to a simple Fanboy , I am not in any form saying Revan is more powerful than Exar Kun or the Emperor who clearly is on a whole another level .

Until something is shown to put Revan ahead of Exar Kun , I will believe Exar is just better and more experienced in many different parts of the force.

 

Maybe HoT will grow and become more powerful than Revan , who knows these days . It just as of right now , it is not my belief he is .

 

These are very interesting view points and I can see where you are coming from very easily. I also fully believe you are right about the HoT, thats why like i said he was moved down bellow Revan's Tier. I do think about moving Revan up to B Tier, since there is currently a missing spot there unless I want to move Kun back down to it, but as I said, none of the tiers are all that spaced anyway, nor does it really matter. i like reading your guys view on stuff like this more, but I DO know that the actual Player Characters werent there for that particular fight as nothing is cannon to them except Class Stories. The rest we KNOW happens, but not who did it essentially. That part is left a bit more Vague, as when you arent doing your class story, and you are playing a Jedi Knight you are kind of just supposed to be the Average knight or what ever kind of Knight or Consular or what have you . It could have been done by one of the Player Characters it could not have been done by any Planetary stories are Wonkey that way.

 

 

Edit: And Honestly I do believe Revan was a bit crazed and weakened. Like you siad the Raw power, and the physical strength, but not he wisdom to use it properly. He was more sith then he had ever been in my mind, but Sith does not mean weak, nor technically does crazed. SOMETIMES, it takes more to take down a crazed man, then it does to take down one who is in control.

Edited December 8, 2014 by tunewalker

[Rhyltran]

Not to mention that was half of Revan , not him in his whole.

I found the story Weird and coming off like Hellraiser "Hell on Earth" where PinHead ( Actor also does the Voice for the Emperor) was split in two with his evil half causing all the issues ( Like the living Revan half) and the Good side pulling him back into Balance.

 

Who knows what would have been if Revan was whole .

 

I personally wish Revan would have died in the Revan Novel with Meetra or the Foundry ,

 

 

 

 

 

I think people have been waiting for a definition beyond everything of what Revan was able to do .

Some of the people who been posting in this area of the forums I find have been lighter on attacking the Character , some even seem to have come around .

 

I found after the Revan expansion that really I was a Darth Revan fan who is long dead since KotoR 1 .

 

But Revan Expansion did show how far Revan's abilities were .

Still he is not the Emperor nor was he ever able to beat him .

 

I don't think he'd have been "more powerful." if whole. That's kind of missing the point. The whole point is that he wasn't whole in mind/spirit. This made him "Sick." It wasn't like he couldn't draw on both aspects of the force. We saw him use both "Jedi" and "Sith" powers. His body just wasn't acting in accordance to Spirit. I still agree that Revan is more powerful than the player characters but I wouldn't say that's "50% of Revan's powers." in some ways he might have been stronger. (Nothing holding him back etc.) he grew more powerful after the split not weaker.

 

I do think he would have better applied that power and wouldn't have been an insane mess.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Rhyltran