painful level design

[anywalker]

Hi guys,

 

I played this game when it launched in 2011, stopped after around 6 months, and came back recently to give the expansion a shot.

 

This game has a lot of minor issues that are still not fixed ( camera reset, useless orbital stations, key bindings not saveable for all chars etc. ), but they are not really showstoppers for me.

 

I do like this game, especially operations, pvp and the stories, needless to mention the whole star wars theme including the music. I would like to see this game improve, so I was wondering why this game feels so frustrating at times.

 

I think it is actually the aspect of the missing "open world" feeling, caused by bad level design. In theory this world is gigantic, and I can see how you guys planned to make it seem bigger by letting us travel with our space ship, so we have a whole "universe" to explore.

 

However, I think this worked out in the opposite direction, and level design is adding to this. The way planets are seperated from each other actually makes the game feel more instanstiated than any other MMO around, but I guess this is unavoidable, as the SW lore is just happening on many different planets.

 

So in order to balance this seperation, at least planets should feel free, big and open. But they aren't.

 

No matter at which planet I am, the level design freaks me out and limits me in so many ways that I never feel like exploring a world, but more like following the illuminated line on the floor of an aircraft when the cabin is full of smoke ( at least that's what I imagine it to be like ).

 

No matter which direction you turn, you bet that you will run into an endless mountain standing right in your way. And when you reached the end of the endless mountain, there will be an even more endless wall which you can't cross. At the end of the wall there is of course a fence, and when you have reached the end of the fence, you realize that the path you were looking for is exactly at the other side of the map.

 

Even smaller hills or just layers a few meters higher than myself, 99% of the time you can not find a way to climb your way up. I mean you can use the force and magically move rocks and mountains, but no way you could climb one when it is higher than your hip.

 

This happens all the time, and it is killing large parts of the good fun this game is offering. I see why you are doing it, your way of thinking is probably "longer travels = feels bigger", but this is completely false from my own perspective.

 

The worst example is actually Makeb, with all the different layers and a mob lined up every 5 meters. This planet almost gave me virtual claustrophobia, and without this planet I would have returned over a year ago already. But back then I only made one level on this planet and quit my subscription again, no thanks.

 

tl;dr: Give us areas which are not intentionally trying to frustrate ( I bet you call it "challenge" internally ) us, please give us some feeling of space and freedom in this game, so it feels like we have a world, or even many worlds, to explore.

 

alternative proposal: Give every player proper jetpacks with 10 or 15 seconds cooldown, not working in pvp areas.

 

Thank you.

Edited November 27, 2014 by anywalker

[MagikFingerz]

I completely agree. It really does feel like their thinking was "longer travels = feels bigger", and it's only a source of frustration. I keep a txt file of suggested changes I'd like to see in the game, which includes a long list of improvements to the traveling in this game. None of them involves level design, mostly because I just didn't think about it, but I also think it might be too late to do anything about that (sadly). We can only hope that they've done better with the upcoming planets in 3.0, they at least tried doing something different with Makeb.

 

Btw: One thing I do like about Makeb is the taxi "fade to black and boom you're there", which I wish they would add to all the other taxis (if only as an option/toggle).

[anywalker]

Btw: One thing I do like about Makeb is the taxi "fade to black and boom you're there", which I wish they would add to all the other taxis (if only as an option/toggle).

 

I have mixed feelings about this one.

 

I agree that travelling faster is generally something I'd welcome, but to me this taxi thing gave me even less of a feeling for this planet.

 

For example I only finished the story line on Makeb ( no dailies ), and I could not even tell the different areas apart from each other, let alone guessing in which direction of the map they would actually be located.

 

But well, I simply hated Makeb tbh, maybe my brain was blocking all input

Edited November 27, 2014 by anywalker

[Oyranos]

I always suggest this...

 

Expand the worlds we allready have. Stop for a while giving tiny bitty, little planets .... expand the ones we got!

 

If alderaan was twice the size, Courasant was 3 times more, etc, etc... It would me much much better.

 

I hope they have stories to go back in the prev planets and expand them a bit.

 

Another example is Section X... its Belsavis, why its not united with Belsavis in 1 level... add some more mount travelling, etc.

 

Its because their engine is a pre-alpha edition and its limited for how many people are actually playing at the same time and in the same instanse...

Edited November 27, 2014 by Oyranos

[anywalker]

I always suggest this...

 

Expand the worlds we allready have. Stop for a while giving tiny bitty, little planets .... expand the ones we got!

 

If alderaan was twice the size, Courasant was 3 times more, etc, etc... It would me much much better.

 

I hope they have stories to go back in the prev planets and expand them a bit.

 

I completely agree, also with the examples you mentioned.

 

In the beginning it was mainly those two planets where I felt that I want to explore them, go into those streets you see from the Taxi in coruscant and climb the mountains you see in the background on alderaan.

 

Especially coruscant did not feel like a planet at all. Given the size of the buildings you see and the amount of taxis and people flying around, the content you could really play was ridicolously low.

Edited November 27, 2014 by anywalker

[PLynkes]

 

If alderaan was twice the size etc, etc... It would me much much better.

 

 

 

You obviously haven't heard all the people whining about how these planets are too big now even as they are. Just imagine what it would be like if they were even bigger.

 

For the record, though, I agree. The big open planets (i.e. Tatooine and Hoth) are my favourites, and the reason is that they actually feel a bit more like planets and a bit less like film sets.

Edited November 27, 2014 by PLynkes

[TravelersWay]

Well, you see, that's the difference between themepark and sandbox. I happen to prefer the way the game is now. No point in wasting development time and resources making planets "larger" when there is nothing to do (i.e. missions/quests) in them. The time making useless explorable zones is better spent working on new class/planetary missions, flashpoints, operations, and PvP maps.

 

There is good news however - the various SWG emus offer all you could hope since the official version of the game died the very well deserved and necessary death it deserved.

[Oyranos]

those people who are whining probably are ea employees hahaha...

 

Why nobody whining in all other open world mmos? Only swtor players whinning about the allready small planerts?

 

 

read this story... http://www.heroengine.com/2011/11/heroengine-meets-starwars/

 

thats the reason we have all that.... Its a pre-alpha edition of the engine. Thats why ESO hero engine supports 4500 people at once (in the pvp area and am not talking about the thousands of npc... while swtor hero engine, lags even with the npc count inside strongholds). Both are hero engine, swtor is pre-alpha and the other one is complete edition... this Gordon guy rushed so much.

 

 

All I mean is, give some little stories as a high end content in all old planets, expand them with extra areas. If they ever give us racing arenas, dont make it a click to play experience like GSF is... add stadiums in the planets, in expanded areas, with little events otuside the stadiums, etc... do both, click to play and stadiums... So we can travel and or queue.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Oyranos

[MagikFingerz]

You obviously haven't heard all the people whining about how these planets are too big now even as they are. Just imagine what it would be like if they were even bigger.

 

For the record, though, I agree. The big open planets (i.e. Tatooine and Hoth) are my favourites, and the reason is that they actually feel a bit more like planets and a bit less like film sets.

 

I think the reason people dislike the biggest planets in this game is because you can't go anywhere you want on them. Once you go off the path on the map there's all sorts of barriers and obstacles that stops you, most of which are completely unnecessary. This means that a bigger planet only offers a longer travel along a path, with no added sense of exploration since you can't just go off in any direction without something getting in your way.

 

So yeah, poor level design indeed.

[Damask_Rose]

As an explorer at heart I would love to see all of the planets expanded. Toss in some random spawning bosses too! Unfortunately I think I'm in the minority, and if this is even on the wall of crazy it is probably down at the bottom.

[TravelersWay]

I think the reason people dislike the biggest planets in this game is because you can't go anywhere you want on them. Once you go off the path on the map there's all sorts of barriers and obstacles that stops you, most of which are completely unnecessary. This means that a bigger planet only offers a longer travel along a path, with no added sense of exploration since you can't just go off in any direction without something getting in your way.

 

So yeah, poor level design indeed.

 

It's not poor level design - it's proper themepark design. He is also not talking about making more areas to explore using that design, but making planets that are open world, in which you have the freedom to explore. That, as I mentioned, would be a waste of time and resources that are better spent making actual content for the game.

[anywalker]

It's not poor level design - it's proper themepark design. He is also not talking about making more areas to explore using that design, but making planets that are open world, in which you have the freedom to explore. That, as I mentioned, would be a waste of time and resources that are better spent making actual content for the game.

 

I posted my opinion, yours is different, but thanks for mentioning it anyway.

 

Just one question: How would bigger planets with more stuff to explore not be content?

 

Obviously I am not talking about giant deserts with nothing meaningful in them, sorry for not pointing this out more clearly.

 

This could be anything from world events to pvp areas, daily quests and whatnot. I was only talking about my feelings on the current level design, and by no means did I say that resources should be taken away from other content teams.

 

It was more a post to raise awareness and to be maybe be considered in future level designs, nothing more.

 

So chill out, nobody wants to take away your precious candy, whatever it might be.

Edited November 27, 2014 by anywalker

[Savej]

One thing that really surprised me about this (and Age of Conan but less so there) was how they used terrain mazes and completely ignored the idea of flying. The original producers/designers were not thinking past recreating a limited version of 2005's Wow (with a better character model and more story) and they were very very short-sighted.

[anywalker]

One thing that really surprised me about this (and Age of Conan but less so there) was how they used terrain mazes and completely ignored the idea of flying. The original producers/designers were not thinking past recreating a limited version of 2005's Wow (with a better character model and more story) and they were very very short-sighted.

 

Flying is always the fastest way to explore areas, and the quickest way to finish quests requiring moving from A to B.

 

So the reason why many mmos don't offer it is because they are afraid to run out of content too quickly. I think they used the same rational when designing all those annoying walls, mountains, fences, edges etc.

 

In mmos time is money, literally. So every way to stretch content is probably appreciated by the board.

 

Even wow does this until today, as in the new expansion areas you can not fly right now ( I am certain it will be changed again, *****torm is here already ), and designers openly admitted that they are afraid of people exploring the maps too fast or not actively enough.

Edited November 27, 2014 by anywalker

[KROSSDARK]

Well, you see, that's the difference between themepark and sandbox. I happen to prefer the way the game is now. No point in wasting development time and resources making planets "larger" when there is nothing to do (i.e. missions/quests) in them. The time making useless explorable zones is better spent working on new class/planetary missions, flashpoints, operations, and PvP maps.

 

There is good news however - the various SWG emus offer all you could hope since the official version of the game died the very well deserved and necessary death it deserved.

 

First of all you are clearly an idiot! Why even bother posting? WOW is Themepark and it does not have this gated map design like this game. Its always annoying when morons like you come into thread with the same "resources are better spent on only what I want to see in the game". Grow up. There are always going to be people with different opinions than you. The stupidity of your post is you think Themepark means gated worlds where you can't freely explore the maps.

Edited November 27, 2014 by KROSSDARK

[x_Boots_x]

Yeah, it is a major design flaw and probably one of the reasons for the games initial decline, the overall vision for SWTOR has always seemed to be very close to the issue with rollercoaster style world maps, players are treated as almost the adversary and ways are found to "keep them busy", from world design to early restrictions on gear and appearances, its always a "this is our game and if you want to play you play it our way feel".

[TravelersWay]

I posted my opinion, yours is different, but thanks for mentioning it anyway.

 

Just one question: How would bigger planets with more stuff to explore not be content?

 

Obviously I am not talking about giant deserts with nothing meaningful in them, sorry for not pointing this out more clearly.

 

This could be anything from world events to pvp areas, daily quests and whatnot. I was only talking about my feelings on the current level design, and by no means did I say that resources should be taken away from other content teams.

 

It was more a post to raise awareness and to be maybe be considered in future level designs, nothing more.

 

So chill out, nobody wants to take away your precious candy, whatever it might be.

 

Because there is no point in creating a mountaintop to reach if there is no guest giver at the top to give you something to actually do rather than wander around aimlessly. i am all for bigger worlds so long as there are missions/guests to be done within those areas.

 

One thing that really surprised me about this (and Age of Conan but less so there) was how they used terrain mazes and completely ignored the idea of flying. The original producers/designers were not thinking past recreating a limited version of 2005's Wow (with a better character model and more story) and they were very very short-sighted.

Actually, the answer is much more simpler than that. The reason a game does not include flying as a method of travel is that it requires a complete different and more intensive design of the explorable areas in the game in order for the world to render properly and look correct from that vantage point. For the most point, it is an unnecessary use of development time if the ground travel method serves the purpose well enough.

 

First of all you are clearly an idiot! Why even bother posting? WOW is Themepark and it does not have this gated map design like this game. Its always annoying when morons like you come into thread with the same "resources are better spent on only what I want to see in the game". Grow up. There are always going to be people with different opinions than you. The stupidity of your post is you think Themepark means gated worlds where you can't freely explore the maps.

 

Right back at ya, big guy

[anywalker]

Because there is no point in creating a mountaintop to reach if there is no guest giver at the top to give you something to actually do rather than wander around aimlessly. i am all for bigger worlds so long as there are missions/guests to be done within those areas.

 

Nobody ever mentioned bigger areas without content, in fact I specifically pointed that out again in the post you actually quoted.

 

Apparently this still didn't stop you from only reading what you wanted to read.

[anywalker]

Actually, the answer is much more simpler than that. The reason a game does not include flying as a method of travel is that it requires a complete different and more intensive design of the explorable areas in the game in order for the world to render properly and look correct from that vantage point. For the most point, it is an unnecessary use of development time if the ground travel method serves the purpose well enough.

 

First of all, we all state our opinions here, and so do you. I am sorry to be the messenger here, but you don't decide what is necessary or unnecessary use of development time.

 

If x players want to see a certain feature implemented or changed, that that's how they feel about it, and there is nothing you can do about this. This harsh way of telling people to stop asking for "unnecessary" things will not stop anyone from expressing their views, but feel free to keep trying.

 

I personally, and maybe some others, would consider features like housing decoration and space fights ( heck, I don't even remember anymore what this crap is called .. ) unncessary features, but there might be people enjoying this, so I am not questioning them.

[TravelersWay]

Nobody ever mentioned bigger areas without content, in fact I specifically pointed that out again in the post you actually quoted.

 

Apparently this still didn't stop you from only reading what you wanted to read.

 

If I misinterpreted, then I apologize, but reading through your post again, still gives the impression that you are asking for more open world exploration without necessarily stating that that we should have additional mission/quest content to go along with it. It reads to me that you simply want to climb the mountain to only admire the scenery and not actually do it to complete or obtain a mission.

 

First of all, we all state our opinions here, and so do you. I am sorry to be the messenger here, but you don't decide what is necessary or unnecessary use of development time.

 

If x players want to see a certain feature implemented or changed, that that's how they feel about it, and there is nothing you can do about this. This harsh way of telling people to stop asking for "unnecessary" things will not stop anyone from expressing their views, but feel free to keep trying.

 

I personally, and maybe some others, would consider features like housing decoration and space fights ( heck, I don't even remember anymore what this crap is called .. ) unncessary features, but there might be people enjoying this, so I am not questioning them.

 

Actually, that information comes directly from developer interviews and statements, both done personally and available to the public, so that is not personal opinion - they are the very reasons straight from the horse's mouth so to speak.

Edited November 27, 2014 by TravelersWay

[anywalker]

Actually, that information comes directly from developer interviews and statements, both done personally and available to the public, so that is not personal opinion - they are the very reasons straight from the horse's mouth so to speak.

 

Please post a source to this, I would love to hear more of their views on this. Also, to make conversations a bit easier, it might be helpful to label view points as official statements when they are, and not fall back to this argument being "official" after conversation going back and forth 3-4 times.

 

Second, even if this is their view, why should that prevent anyone in here from disagreeing with it?

 

That's what a forum is there for after all, express your opinions, positive or negative.

[Deewe]

First of all, we all state our opinions here, and so do you. I am sorry to be the messenger here, but you don't decide what is necessary or unnecessary use of development time.

 

If x players want to see a certain feature implemented or changed, that that's how they feel about it, and there is nothing you can do about this. This harsh way of telling people to stop asking for "unnecessary" things will not stop anyone from expressing their views, but feel free to keep trying.

 

I personally, and maybe some others, would consider features like housing decoration and space fights ( heck, I don't even remember anymore what this crap is called .. ) unncessary features, but there might be people enjoying this, so I am not questioning them.

From a design point of view, making all areas explorable by air totally changes the way you have to pave things for the player.

 

There's a reason a boss or a reward is at the end of an area. Now if you can fly directly to it then people are going to completely bypass all the mobs in between. Then it's not just a matter of mobs, it's also a matter of immersion.

 

Being obliged to travel gives the player the feeling of how big is really the world. And for the record Blizzard devs stated adding flying in game was a wrong.

 

Now you can change the design to have more liberty (cf Wildstar), but for an existing game you can only do that with new areas.

 

Then I would totally love new areas to allow players explore a bit more in 3d, using jetpacks, force jump, grappling hooks or even climbing. For example I would love being able to jump off a very tall building or a cliff and land safely with a properly timed jet pack ignition. But once again: new areas only.

[anywalker]

From a design point of view, making all areas explorable by air totally changes the way you have to pave things for the player.

 

There's a reason a boss or a reward is at the end of an area. Now if you can fly directly to it then people are going to completely bypass all the mobs in between. Then it's not just a matter of mobs, it's also a matter of immersion.

 

Being obliged to travel gives the player the feeling of how big is really the world. And for the record Blizzard devs stated adding flying in game was a wrong.

 

Now you can change the design to have more liberty (cf Wildstar), but for an existing game you can only do that with new areas.

 

Then I would totally love new areas to allow players explore a bit more in 3d, using jetpacks, force jump, grappling hooks or even climbing. For example I would love being able to jump off a very tall building or a cliff and land safely with a properly timed jet pack ignition. But once again: new areas only.

 

I am not even disagreeing, in fact I never said there should be flying in swtor, I was only answering to a question as to why this game probably doesn't allow flying. Partially I still think not having flying mounts is a form of content stretching, but I can see where the devs are coming from on this one, so I am undecided on this question. I am with you when you state that it would require a totally different map design ( although it worked pretty flawlessly in wow, since the maps simply feel wider and you can seamlessly fly from one area to another ).

 

My proposal in the op was pretty close to your ideas, a jetpack, so we could at least overcome incredibly annoying obstacles in terms of height differences. I don't see why this wouldn't work in current maps.

Edited November 27, 2014 by anywalker

[Deewe]

My proposal in the op was pretty close to your ideas, a jetpack, so we could at least overcome incredibly annoying obstacles in terms of height differences. I don't see why this wouldn't work in current maps.

It could although the work involved to revisit every area to see how it might break things would be tremendous, hence why the suggestion for new zones/planets only.

 

Then at a time you can start tweaking older zones,one at a time, when you want to bring back players in them.

[anywalker]

It could although the work involved to revisit every area to see how it might break things would be tremendous, hence why the suggestion for new zones/planets only.

 

Then at a time you can start tweaking older zones,one at a time, when you want to bring back players in them.

 

Put it in a Beta before the next major content patch, that's what Betas are for after all, finding bugs/issues/inconsistencies with the help of users.

 

If a certain amount of players think it doesn't work on Planet x for one reason or another, you simply disable it for older planets and take it in consideration for the design of upcoming areas.

 

To me it feels more like this time sink in terms of level design is intentional, which makes it even more frustrating tbh.

Edited November 27, 2014 by anywalker