tunewalker Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Technically he doesnt have "No Force energy" as a Spirit, he IS force Energy taking physical form. All Force Ghosts are essentially Force Energy, it is just some that the person put their will into and can now allow them to Live after death. Can allow them to BE the Force in a way. In this case "there is no death There is the Force" is absolutely true. As is "The Force shall set me Free" You dont need a body to have the Force (The force is an Energy field it surrounds us, penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together) by becoming a Force Ghost, he becomes a PART of that energy field, but still has a concience to control the rest of it. Also when Sidious is and will always be the most powerful Sith, its possible what Luke is talking about is simply the "darkness" in the person, or the Malice. Afterall in RotJ novel, that's what he refers to as Darkness when he says he doesnt hate his father, he doesnt hate the Emperor, or the Empire. He hates this... he hates Darkness. So Darkest person since Sidious for Luke more then likely means "most evil" more so then "most powerful darksider" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Rayla you just proved my point, when I said power I meant power or skill in the force. He showed none of those abilities when he was alive, and he himself states he had millennia to master the force. His drain feats don't mean he can use it while alive, since Spirit Revan uses Essence transfer despite never having learned it. It's likely that due to their ties to the force, spirits can transfer it's Essence far easier. As for his Ritual, meaningless. Palpatine himself says that rituals are the path to abilities that you yourself could never manage, so why does a ritual mean he can use drain? Hell, if we use Rituals, Plageuis' was far superior anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted December 11, 2014 Author Share Posted December 11, 2014 Well, the question I have is, when could Kun have learned this stuff as a spirit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Well, the question I have is, when could Kun have learned this stuff as a spirit? Technically anytime all the time. As being one with the Force, he can comune with it and learn it from just looking to understand the Force technically. That's bassically what happened to Luke the short time he spent out of his body in Courtship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted December 11, 2014 Author Share Posted December 11, 2014 Technically anytime all the time. As being one with the Force, he can comune with it and learn it from just looking to understand the Force technically. That's bassically what happened to Luke the short time he spent out of his body in Courtship. I guess that would make sense. However, I think the feats with abilities he showed before becoming a spirit could be valid. But I'll leave that to you all to decide that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted December 13, 2014 Author Share Posted December 13, 2014 Bump! I'll go ahead and pitch for Exar Kun here real quick while we wait on Sel's Space verdict. While I believe Plagueis to be under-rated as a lightsaber duelist, I do not believe him to be anywhere near Exar Kun in skill. Plagueis may have been deemed a master lightsaber duelist, but we can certainly say that his skill is not on the level of Exar Kun's. Nor should we believe that Plagueis' possible advanced knowledge of lightsaber combat would allow him to know Kun's fighting style. The fact is that Kun's style is a radical adaptation of a moderate fighting style, not one seen often and not one that is taught. Plagueis has encountered an opponent with an unpredictable fighting style that knew his fighting style, and we saw what happened. I'm not saying Kun will know Plagueis in and out, but if Plagueis does indeed use Niman, then Kun will know what to expect. The same can't be said for Plagueis. On another note: Defense against the Force Blast? What do we think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 (edited) Edit: Wait nvrm. Although I think people put way too much stock in having an unorthodox fighting method, that doesn't make anyone better than any other. It helps yes, but that alone doesn't give a win. Edited December 13, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted December 13, 2014 Author Share Posted December 13, 2014 Edit: Wait nvrm. Although I think people put way too much stock in having an unorthodox fighting method, that doesn't make anyone better than any other. It helps yes, but that alone doesn't give a win. It's not just the unorthodox fighting method, it's that Kun took the moderation Form and turned it into that unorthodox fighting method. Not to mention his double-bladed lightsaber having those dual-phase modifications. Unorthodox methods can also be very dangerous because they aren't the norm. Look at Lumiya. I wouldn't call her the best duelist ever, but her whip makes her a very dangerous foe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 (edited) It's not just the unorthodox fighting method, it's that Kun took the moderation Form and turned it into that unorthodox fighting method. Not to mention his double-bladed lightsaber having those dual-phase modifications. Unorthodox methods can also be very dangerous because they aren't the norm. Look at Lumiya. I wouldn't call her the best duelist ever, but her whip makes her a very dangerous foe. Right dangerous, but that's not gonna just give a insta win. Mundi was able to hold his own against Grevious who was wielding 3 lightsabers, using a form that was unorthodox and Mundi using a form that wasn't suited for the style and using a lightsaber that he was unfamiliar with. This all being while exhausted from an earlier battle beforehand, and he was still able to hold out until the ARC Clones arrived. Besides, if so then why didn't Kun just outright stomp Vodo or Ulic in their duels? Vodo was able to duel with Kun for a time and Ulic stalemated him(granted Kun didn't use the saberstaff but still). Kun's form is fine, great....but he's not the best saber combatant ever just because of his unorthodox form. Edited December 13, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted December 13, 2014 Author Share Posted December 13, 2014 Right dangerous, but that's not gonna just give a win. Mundi was able to hold his own against Grevious who was wielding 3 lightsabers, using a form that was unorthodox and Mundi using a form that wasn't suited for the style and using a lightsaber that he was unfamiliar with. This all being while exhausted from an earlier battle beforehand, and he was still able to hold out until the ARC Clones arrived. Of course, but I'd say that's because Mundi's awesome. I mean, there are the situations where someone can defend themselves against the unorthodox, but Plagueis hasn't really shown that in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted December 13, 2014 Author Share Posted December 13, 2014 Besides, if so then why didn't Kun just outright stomp Vodo or Ulic in their duels? Vodo was able to duel with Kun for a time and Ulic stalemated him(granted Kun didn't use the saberstaff but still). Kun's form is fine, great....but he's not the best saber combatant ever just because of his unorthodox form. Missed the edit. Vodo was stated in other sources to be no match for Kun. It's obvious Kun was either toying with him or holding back. Or maybe Vodo, being a centuries old combat instructor, was just that good. And the Ulic fight was before Kun picked up the saberstaff, as you said. I'm not saying Kun will win because of the unorthodox. It's a point in his favor and compliments his highly advanced lightsaber skill, skill that Plagueis does not (evidently) possess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Of course, but I'd say that's because Mundi's awesome. I mean, there are the situations where someone can defend themselves against the unorthodox, but Plagueis hasn't really shown that in my opinion. Who says he can't? He recognized Maul's Niman and Teras Kasi fighting, he's a master lightsaber duelist. In fact he actually has fought someone like that, Venamis who also knew Plagueis' fighting styles. For no sooner had the blades of their weapons clashed than Venamis began to bring the fight to him in unexpected ways, twirling his surprisingly limber body, tossing the lightsaber from hand to hand, mixing forms. - Taken from Darth Plagueis Worse for Plagueis, Tenebrous had made Venamis an expert in Plagueis’s style, and so the Bith could not only anticipate but counter Plagueis’s every move. - Same And yet Plagueis was able to best him. At the height of Venamis’s attack, Plagueis came back into himself with such fury that his lightsaber became a blinding rod. A two-handed upward swing launched from between his legs caught Venamis off guard. The blade didn’t go deep enough to puncture the Bith’s lung but scorched him from chest to chin. As his large, cleft head snapped backward in retreat, Plagueis brought his lightsaber straight down, tearing Venamis’s weapon from his gloved hand and nearly taking off his long fingers, as well. With a gesture of his other hand, Venamis called for his lightsaber, but Plagueis was a split second quicker, and the hilt shot into his own right hand. Sensing a storm of Force lightning building in the Bith, he crossed the two crimson blades in front of him and said: “Yield!” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted December 13, 2014 Author Share Posted December 13, 2014 Who says he can't? He recognized Maul's Niman and Teras Kasi fighting, he's a master lightsaber duelist. In fact he actually has fought someone like that, Venamis who also knew Plagueis' fighting styles. And yet Plagueis was able to best him. Yeah, Plagueis did fight Venamis, and he was completely outclassed. So much so that Venamis scored a blow on him in short order. Plagueis had to fall back on his Force abilities in order to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Yeah, Plagueis did fight Venamis, and he was completely outclassed. So much so that Venamis scored a blow on him in short order. Plagueis had to fall back on his Force abilities in order to win. No he didn't, he used the Force all of one time to sever a tree branch. Yes Venamis did land a hit, but it was one, the rest of the time they fought until the end where Plagueis won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted December 13, 2014 Author Share Posted December 13, 2014 No he didn't, he used the Force all of one time to sever a tree branch. Yes Venamis did land a hit, but it was one, the rest of the time they fought until the end where Plagueis won. He did. He used the Force to take himself out of his body and work it like a marionette. That's how he was able to defend himself from Venamis' attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 He did. He used the Force to take himself out of his body and work it like a marionette. That's how he was able to defend himself from Venamis' attacks. Realizing that the fight could go on indefinitely, he took himself out of his body and began working his material self like a marionette, no longer on the offensive, instigating attacks, but merely responding to Venamis’s lunges and strikes. I'm not really seeing anything Force related here....and even still, it was noted the fight could have went on indefinitely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted December 13, 2014 Author Share Posted December 13, 2014 I'm not really seeing anything Force related here....and even still, it was noted the fight could have went on indefinitely. 'Material self' implies that he was controlling his body with the Force. Even if it could go on indefinitely, he was clearly at a disadvantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 'Material self' implies that he was controlling his body with the Force. Even if it could go on indefinitely, he was clearly at a disadvantage. Eh....I'm none too sure on that. Regardless though, point being, he did fight someone who was using an unorthodox method and who knew his fighting moves, something which Kun doesn't. Plus I'm pretty sure Plagueis is faster than Kun too. It would be nice, but I'm thinking Plagueis can take this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted December 13, 2014 Author Share Posted December 13, 2014 Eh....I'm none too sure on that. Regardless though, point being, he did fight someone who was using an unorthodox method and who knew his fighting moves, something which Kun doesn't. Plus I'm pretty sure Plagueis is faster than Kun too. It would be nice, but I'm thinking Plagueis can take this. Well, I don't expect Plagueis to have a style incredibly complex or developed in comparison. Nor do I believe Plagueis to be significantly faster than Kun. Speed is generally a product of one's mastery of the Force, and I don't put Kun and Plagueis too far apart. It's possible for him to win. I just don't see it in happening in a straight-up lightsaber duel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Well, I don't expect Plagueis to have a style incredibly complex or developed in comparison. Nor do I believe Plagueis to be significantly faster than Kun. Speed is generally a product of one's mastery of the Force, and I don't put Kun and Plagueis too far apart. It's possible for him to win. I just don't see it in happening in a straight-up lightsaber duel. I don't recall anything substantial for Kun in the speed department, other than forming afterimages of his blades. Plagueis has done that and more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted December 13, 2014 Author Share Posted December 13, 2014 I don't recall anything substantial for Kun in the speed department, other than forming afterimages of his blades. Plagueis has done that and more. Well, like I said, speed is usually a product of an individual's strength in the Force. If Kun has to fight fast, I'm sure he will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Well, like I said, speed is usually a product of an individual's strength in the Force. If Kun has to fight fast, I'm sure he will. Right....but what he has shown and what can actually be quantified...isn't that great compared to what Plagueis has done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcheseAMM Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 (edited) Kun is a hilariously inconsistent character. He can make Luke Skywalker cower and fear and be awed as greater then Tulak Hord, and Marka Ragnos, yet can't beat Keto and Ulic. My money is on Darth Plagueis here. Edited December 14, 2014 by MarcheseAMM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted December 14, 2014 Author Share Posted December 14, 2014 Characters that show up as spirits later tend to be a bit inconsistent. I mean, Marka Ragnos showed up for all of 5 minutes before getting kicked to the curb by a teenager. Well, I'll work on a different argument for Kun. I can see that Plagueis has quite a bit of support, so Kun could use some help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Kun is a hilariously inconsistent character. He can make Luke Skywalker cower and fear and be awed as greater then Tulak Hord, and Marka Ragnos, yet can't beat Keto and Ulic. My money is on Darth Plagueis here. Body Form =/= Spirit Form There's a difference between the 2 in power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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