An in-depth look at combat: Count Dooku

[Beniboybling]

She is correct Most did. I think the issue isnt with the idea that Most Jedi Mastered forms, but rather your Idea of what "mastered" is. But it is correct to say a vast Majority of Jedi Mastered 6 of the forms (most were not allowed to learn the 7th) but what is "mastered" isnt what you think it is. Or at least thats all the information I have been able to dig up on it.

 

Remember a "practitioner" is just what they favor. Just because they are a Form IV Practitioner does not mean Form IV is the only thing they mastered, it just means that is what they prefered, and that was what they were either most comfortable with or covered their physical weaknesses best. Its also likely they took it beyond "mastery" as a practitioner.

 

 

Edit: It also doesnt mean Form IV was all they used. Dooku's skill with blast deflection I believe is more an example of his mastery of Form III and Form V and his ability to use those Forms along side his Makashi form, and then smoothly transition back to Makashi rather then truly "over comeing the weakness" yes the weakness was overcome, but I feel it was more by his GENERAL mastery of ALL forms rather then his Mastery of Makashi alone, since last I checked Makashi had 0 response to blasters in its original form, and just about every practitioner either fell back onto Shii-cho, or they died, or like Dooku they learned Form 3 and 5.

Care to provide examples? Neither Anakin Skywalker nor Obi-Wan Kenobi mastered all six forms. Despite being some of the most prodigious warriors in the order, they were highly proficient in many, but they were not masters.

 

And mastery is mastery, and is a term I don't throw around lightly. And there is no such thing as beyond mastery, mastery is absolute, it is the total and consummate fulfillment of any one skill, that is what the term means.

 

And that last part is pure conjecture I'm afraid.

 

EDIT: This would also contradict the notion that Makashi became obsolete if every tom, dick and harry was a master.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Rhyltran]

Erm, nope nope. Most Jedi didn't master any.

 

I think the ability to mimic the styles of some of the greatest duellists in the order says a lot...

 

Uh.. you really think most Jedi didn't master any? If that was the case the completed styles wouldn't have lasted this long. There'd only be bits and pieces of each style. Martial styles only survive by people mastering them and then teaching them. You do realize that two masters in a style aren't always equal, right? He also stated "I can show you what to expect." This doesn't mean he "mastered" them. You can understand a style and show someone what they can expect from a practitioner of said style without being a master of it.

 

I study Kashima Shinryu Kenjutsu. I am not a master of this style. However, let's assume for a moment sword styles were still viable and let's say for a moment someone intended on fighting my master. I can tell them "You think you can beat my master? I'll show you what you can expect from him." This statement would be factual. I am proficient in the style. I may not be as good as my master but I have the same style as my master. Logic would have it if they can't beat me (with my inferior knowledge) then they won't be able to defeat my instructor.

 

This is very similar to what Dooku said, he classified all of them. "You think you can beat Obi Wan, Cin Drallig, Windu, or the stars help you, Yoda? I'll show you what you can expect." He's basically telling the person in question that said person would not last against these opponents.

 

You are right that there isn't a level higher than master but don't suddenly think that one makaashi master is suddenly an exact equal to another Makaashi user. It doesn't work in the real world and it doesn't work in star wars. There's a reason why when Windu remarked about Obi Wan's mastery of Soresu he said that he is "THE" Master of Soresu. Implying that not only did he master Soresu he was beyond any other master of it.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Rhyltran

[Beniboybling]

Uh.. you really think most Jedi didn't master any? If that was the case the completed styles wouldn't have lasted this long. There'd only be bits and pieces of each style. Martial styles only survive by people mastering them and then teaching them. You do realize that two masters in a style aren't always equal, right? He also stated "I can show you what to expect." This doesn't mean he "mastered" them. You can understand a style and show someone what they can expect from a practitioner of said style without being a master of it.

 

I study Kashima Shinryu Kenjutsu. I am not a master of this style. However, let's assume for a moment sword styles were still viable and let's say for a moment someone intended on fighting my master. I can tell them "You think you can beat my master? I'll show you what you can expect from him." This statement would be factual. I am proficient in the style. I may not be as good as my master but I have the same style as my master. Logic would have it if they can't beat me (with my inferior knowledge) then they won't be able to defeat my instructor.

 

This is very similar to what Dooku said, he classified all of them. "You think you can beat Obi Wan, Cin Drallig, Windu, or the stars help you, Yoda? I'll show you what you can expect." He's basically telling the person in question that said person would not last against these opponents.

 

You are right that there isn't a level higher than master but don't suddenly think that one makaashi master is suddenly an exact equal to another Makaashi user. It doesn't work in the real world and it doesn't work in star wars. There's a reason why when Windu remarked about Obi Wan's mastery of Soresu he said that he is "THE" Master of Soresu. Implying that not only did he master Soresu he was beyond any other master of it.

I think they used holocrons.

 

That and a small number of battlemasters and lightsaber instructors, but its self-evident that they were not the majority. Indeed most Jedi who have mastered a form would be Jedi Masters, who are the minority.

 

Yes they're are levels of mastery, but that does not imply that many Jedi were masters. The number of Jedi who achieved unparalleled mastery over their respective forms can be counted on a single hand, they were legends.

 

The point I was trying to make however is that we shouldn't consider mastery a stepping stone, it is not, it is an end goal, and a standard level of mastery is were most find their skills peak.

 

But concerning Dooku you make a valid point.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Rhyltran is correct. Dooku isn't a master of multiple styles. He himself speaks against this, as he believes true mastery can only come from the study of a single Form, hence his sole focus on Makashi.

[Aurbere]

The rambling is actually quite small, and for the most part each section has a clear purpose that it achieves. Now, personally a few things I think could improve it.

 

-Backround info, not every shred has to be about his strengths/weaknesses/technique, getting to see what he sees would be good.

-Possibly an apprentice section to display his knowledge

-A breakdown of his main opponents to better highlight his strengths and weaknesses.

-A tactics bit would also be interesting.

-This one is a bit odder, but a run down of his allies/enemies that he has made and why.

 

Just a few thoughts off of the top of my head, but overall the thread as is, provides plenty of information concerning his power but not much beyond that. If we can get inside his head more we can see him to a much fuller extent, such as for instance, in a Kaggath. I am sure you have done so before with Dooku and I am sure we all would love to share what you see in less of a distance observance and more of a close up explanation/examination.

 

Well, as Sel said, this is mainly about Dooku's power and skill, but I could do a second thread to address these concerns.

 

Edit: I mean, I can basically address all of these with information off the top of my head, so it wouldn't be too difficult.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Aurbere

[Aurbere]

Per the recommendation of Silenceo, I have added an Apprentices and Opponents section to this thread. It's not long right now and will be expanded later.

 

The Apprentices section details the skill and repute of some of Dooku's greatest students, and the Opponents section details some of Dooku's opponents and the methods he uses to engage them in combat.

 

Enjoy!

[dcaleb]

She is correct Most did. I think the issue isnt with the idea that Most Jedi Mastered forms, but rather your Idea of what "mastered" is. But it is correct to say a vast Majority of Jedi Mastered 6 of the forms (most were not allowed to learn the 7th) but what is "mastered" isnt what you think it is. Or at least thats all the information I have been able to dig up on it.

 

Remember a "practitioner" is just what they favor. Just because they are a Form IV Practitioner does not mean Form IV is the only thing they mastered, it just means that is what they prefered, and that was what they were either most comfortable with or covered their physical weaknesses best. Its also likely they took it beyond "mastery" as a practitioner.

 

 

Edit: It also doesnt mean Form IV was all they used. Dooku's skill with blast deflection I believe is more an example of his mastery of Form III and Form V and his ability to use those Forms along side his Makashi form, and then smoothly transition back to Makashi rather then truly "over comeing the weakness" yes the weakness was overcome, but I feel it was more by his GENERAL mastery of ALL forms rather then his Mastery of Makashi alone, since last I checked Makashi had 0 response to blasters in its original form, and just about every practitioner either fell back onto Shii-cho, or they died, or like Dooku they learned Form 3 and 5.

 

 

I'm pretty sure that most jedi don't master multiple forms, let alone 6 out of 7 of them. They will at best lightly dip into some other forms to help shore up the weak points of their preferred form. And there is nothing odd about that, for the most part it is better to focus on getting really good at something rather then get kinda good at several things. And it takes a lot of time to master a form so a lot of people don't bother grinding anymore up to master level after they get their main one there, there is a reason that master duelists who are confirmed to know multiple (or all) styles are old like Cin Drallig.