Damage Dropping In 3.0

[Levram]

"Like level 50 and under and planetary content....". Wouldn't Makeb and Oricon be "planetary content"?

 

There is certainly room for interpretation in Rob's statement "all the mobs from, like, level 50 on down, all the mobs that you see out in the planetary content and in your Class missions, that kind of stuff, they’re actually all going to die faster. So it won’t be quite such a “slog,” is the word we’re used a lot, so you get through the game a little faster."

 

On one hand "Level 50 on down" is specified, and on the other hand "planetary content" is also mentioned. Everyone will have a personal definition of what they consider that reference to "planetary content" as meaning.

 

My personal interpretation of his statement, when taken as a whole, is that the "slog" they are trying to cut down on so that players can "get through the game a little faster" is the original Level 1-50 planetary and Class mission leveling content (i.e. the oldest of old-school content.) After all, "level 50 on down" was specified. It's pretty hard to just write-off that part of the statement and conclude that "Makeb and Oricon must be included because they are also technically planetary content."

Edited November 2, 2014 by Levram

[Halinalle]

Why on earth would the Devs worry about last expansion Raids? Talk about not being forward looking.

 

If they're trying to balance DF / DP around level 60 toons then they are really missing the boat.

 

No, they want dps numbers @55 to be balanced with DP/DF. If you want to roflstomp NiM DP/DF @60 just like you do now @55 you can do it but you have gear properly.

[Lotharofxev]

What they said was that Level 55 characters today, in the best gear available are exceeding the DPS targets that the Developers had for these two Level 55 nightmare Operations.

 

So, again, they're "balancing" level 55 DPS around NiM operations (regardless of what % of players have ever stepped foot inside NiM DF / DP) from a year ago. Or are they "balancing" level 60 DPS from Nim DF / DP?

 

Something is not adding up.

[Levram]

No, they want dps numbers @55 to be balanced with DP/DF. If you want to roflstomp NiM DP/DF @60 just like you do now @55 you can do it but you have gear properly.

 

Yes, this. Very succinctly put. Players should not have been able to faceroll though eight of ten nightmare DF/DP bosses, even when perfectly geared at Level 55. That type of DPS output will now only be able to be achieved when well geared at Level 60, as the Developers originally intended.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Levram

[Halinalle]

So, again, they're "balancing" level 55 DPS around NiM operations (regardless of what % of players have ever stepped foot inside NiM DF / DP) from a year ago. Or are they "balancing" level 60 DPS from Nim DF / DP?

 

If you have full group in full 186 now NiM DP/DF is a joke because some classes do more damage currently than they are supposed to do. They can't balance L55 content based on L60 stats.

[tdmaha]

There is certainly room for interpretation in Rob's statement "all the mobs from, like, level 50 on down, all the mobs that you see out in the planetary content and in your Class missions, that kind of stuff, they’re actually all going to die faster. So it won’t be quite such a “slog,” is the word we’re used a lot, so you get through the game a little faster."

 

On one hand "Level 50 on down" is specified, and on the other hand "planetary content" is also mentioned. Everyone will have a personal definition of what they consider that reference to "planetary content" as meaning.

 

My personal interpretation of his statement, when taken as a whole, is that the "slog" they are trying to cut down on so that players can "get through the game a little faster" is the original Level 1-50 planetary and Class mission leveling content (i.e. the oldest of old-school content.) After all, "level 50 on down" was specified. It's pretty hard to just write-off that part of the statement and conclude that "Makeb and Oricon must be included because they are also technically planetary content."

 

Exactly your "personal interpretation" is just that. You and the one you were replying to both accused the other of misinformation. The truth is nobody really knows and to make post come across as fact when it's just "your personal interpretation" which you both did is misleading.

[Levram]

So, again, they're "balancing" level 55 DPS around NiM operations (regardless of what % of players have ever stepped foot inside NiM DF / DP) from a year ago. Or are they "balancing" level 60 DPS from Nim DF / DP?

 

Something is not adding up.

 

You could look at it this way, "the DPS reduction that players will experience the morning that 3.0 launches will result in Level 55 players being correctly balanced for nightmare DF and DP."

 

It is not surprising that the Developers balance DPS output around what nightmare progression players are able to achieve. We are showing the Developers what is actually possible when an advanced class is played to perfection. Current DPS performance from nightmare players is exceeding what the Developers thought was theoretically possible from perfect gameplay. Therefore they have decided to make a balance change.

 

Any balance decision is logically made based on the "ceiling" numbers because all players who's output is below that ceiling have the opportunity to rise to the ceiling numbers with better gameplay and gearing.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Levram

[Lt-Snake]

If you have full group in full 186 now NiM DP/DF is a joke because some classes do more damage currently than they are supposed to do. They can't balance L55 content based on L60 stats.

 

of course it easiers you're doing it with 186 gear, which is higher than the recommended tier i.e 180, go back and do it with 180 and it will be a little tougher.. its only easy becuz the people who can get through it without any trouble, spent the last X amount of mounts farming it so they are use to the mechanics and timing of everything...as with all content the more you do it the more easier it start to feel..and being over gear just reaffirm that fact.

[tdmaha]

of course it easiers you're doing it with 186 gear, which is higher than the recommended tier i.e 180, go back and do it with 180 and it will be a little tougher.. its only easy becuz the people who can get through it without any trouble, spent the last X amount of mounts farming it so they are use to the mechanics and timing of everything...as with all content the more you do it the more easier it start to feel..and being over gear just reaffirm that fact.

 

Yeah no offense but I caught zero logic in what you just said...

 

180 is the minimum requirement not the recommended. The top content df/DP nim the recommended would be the top gear full 186.

 

Go back and do it with 180 lol you can't be serious...

[Lotharofxev]

Go back and do it with 180 lol you can't be serious...

 

You just made his point for him.

[tdmaha]

You just made his point for him.

 

And how is that? 180 is not the recommended it's the minimum. How many groups have beat Dp/df nim using less 180 gear? Pretty obvious answer.

 

The recommended gear to complete DP/DF nim efficiently is 186. To tell those who mastered their class to a point where they are doing more damage then the DEVS thought possible to put on lower gear is ridiculous!

 

Sorry buddy I didn't prove his point...

[Levram]

of course it easiers you're doing it with 186 gear, which is higher than the recommended tier i.e 180, go back and do it with 180 and it will be a little tougher.. its only easy becuz the people who can get through it without any trouble, spent the last X amount of mounts farming it so they are use to the mechanics and timing of everything...as with all content the more you do it the more easier it start to feel..and being over gear just reaffirm that fact.

 

Well, the interesting thing about working though nightmare progression is that it doesn't quite work out "feeling" the same as when you work though SM or HM content.

 

A team's first boss clears in NM DF and DP (especially when Nightmare Power was turned on) with a group that was in full min/max 180s (i.e. the recommended gear level) often felt as though you had pulled off something that maybe wasn't quite suppose to be possible. Obviously there are nightmare progression teams of various skill levels, but it's not unusual for some of those first boss clears, when at the recommended gear level, to seem like small miracles.

 

Go watch any team's YouTube video of their first NM Brontes clear. Those screams of joy at the end aren't for dramatic effect. lol

 

That is a completely different experience from clearing SM and HM content at the recommended gear level. Usually there, once you have a team executing all the mechanics properly, the clear comes somewhat naturally. Obviously, this is also a bit dependent on the skill of the group.

 

So in the end, what many nightmare progression teams expect to experience is "very difficult / miracle clears when at the recommended gear level, followed by a slightly easier time once well geared in the nightmare token drops." This time around though with NM DF and DP, the experience for many teams was "tough clears [with a few miracles mixed in] when at the recommended gear level, followed by sleepwalk-farming of eight bosses once well geared in the nightmare token drops."

 

It was very obvious that DPS levels were too high as compared to what previous nightmare content progression has felt like.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Levram

[DawnAskham]

NiM DP/DF may be getting difficult again. I thought it was the point of hardest content: difficult.

 

Is there really any other reasons people whine about it?

 

DP / DF are OLD content. If player power creep was a real issue, they should have dealt with it sooner - like back when the NiM power buff was still active and teams were chasing actual progression.

 

At this point in the life cycle, It is time to move on. We have a new expansion, new level cap, supposedly new operations - basically new challenges to overcome.

 

DP / DF and everything else currently in the game at 55 should stay at 55, slowly becoming easier and easier like all things in a stat progression game, though hopefully retaining a bit of challenge through mechanics similar to EC NiM.

 

Nerfing player power, and potentially making all post 50 content (still unclear) more difficult, just to keep DF / DP relevant at 60 smacks of 'we won't have enough content to keep people occupied at 60 so let's recycle some old stuff' desperation.

 

And as a couple of other posters have pointed out, this isn't anything like what WoW did with their stat squash. Player power remained the same on a relative basis. No level 90 content was made more difficult, nor is there any expectation that players will need to level to 100 and re-gear to be able to go back and perform the same in Mythic SoO (level 90 raid) as they did back at 90.

Edited November 2, 2014 by DawnAskham

[Halinalle]

Nerfing player power, and potentially making all post 50 content (still unclear) more difficult, just to keep DF / DP relevant at 60 smacks of 'we won't have enough content to keep people occupied at 60 so let's recycle some old stuff' desperation..

 

They want to keep NiM DF/DP relevant @55. Of course it's going to be easy at 60 in best possible gear. So, you can't just legacy gear your optimized 186s to your level 55 alt and roflstomp them.

[DawnAskham]

They want to keep NiM DF/DP relevant @55. Of course it's going to be easy at 60 in best possible gear. So, you can't just legacy gear your optimized 186s to your level 55 alt and roflstomp them.

 

The new level cap is 60.

 

The thought that Bioware is expending development resources to reduce player power at 55 just to prevent players from passing legacy gear to alts and easily clearing previous level cap content is laughable.

 

They are doing it because they can, and doing so lets them keep DF / DP relevant for a bit longer while not having to explain why the are recycling it - which they would have to do had they simply moved it up to level 60.

 

And again - at this point who cares how easy DF / DP become. People who wanted to run DF / DP as progression have already done so, the power buff and titles have all been removed.

 

Maybe it is just me, but I don't get all the support for making old content more difficult just to keep it relevant.

 

SWTOR is a progression game based on level progression and gear progression.

 

Gear progression for DF / DP has already occurred, level progression is coming with 3.0.

 

Why do people support rolling back progression for the past year just because the developers were too stupid to accurately model and control damage back when the content was current?

Edited November 2, 2014 by DawnAskham

[ZETA_SCORPII]

DP / DF are OLD content. If player power creep was a real issue, they should have dealt with it sooner - like back when the NiM power buff was still active and teams were chasing actual progression.

 

At this point in the life cycle, It is time to move on. We have a new expansion, new level cap, supposedly new operations - basically new challenges to overcome.

 

DP / DF and everything else currently in the game at 55 should stay at 55, slowly becoming easier and easier like all things in a stat progression game, though hopefully retaining a bit of challenge through mechanics similar to EC NiM.

 

Nerfing player power, and potentially making all post 50 content (still unclear) more difficult, just to keep DF / DP relevant at 60 smacks of 'we won't have enough content to keep people occupied at 60 so let's recycle some old stuff' desperation.

 

And as a couple of other posters have pointed out, this isn't anything like what WoW did with their stat squash. Player power remained the same on a relative basis. No level 90 content was made more difficult, nor is there any expectation that players will need to level to 100 and re-gear to be able to go back and perform the same in Mythic SoO (level 90 raid) as they did back at 90.

 

I suspect that this move is due in large part to the fact that they're trying to recycle content as well.

I've never been in a raid where ppl complain about clearing bosses too fast due to high dps. Usually it's the other way around.

Many are happy with the change though, but I suspect they don't have 186 gear or know how difficult it already is to obtain. Some NiM teams can make any content appear easy to clear, but putting a team like that together is easier said than done.

[Halinalle]

Why do people support rolling back progression for the past year just because the developers were too stupid to accurately model and control damage back when the content was current?

 

Did they buff Balance/Madness a year ago? Did they buff Assault/Pyro a year ago?

[DawnAskham]

Did they buff Balance/Madness a year ago? Did they buff Assault/Pyro a year ago?

 

Thanks for making my point.

 

The fact they recently buffed many specs while now stating overall damage is too high says either...

 

The developers can't accurately model and balance their own game, which is worrisome.

 

or

 

The developers are being disingenuous for the reasons behind the damage reduction.

 

At this point, I'm going to go with disingenuous.

 

I feel they have had amble opportunity to tone down or keep damage from getting too high while the content was current.

 

IMO, they are rolling back a year's worth of progression and 5 new levels just to keep old content relevant.

 

Personally - I don't care. But I also don't just nod my head and smile when someone is trying to spin changes to mask their real reasons.

Edited November 2, 2014 by DawnAskham

[Halinalle]

Or they didn't know how much damage a very good player can do as one of those specs?

 

Personally - I don't care. But I also don't just nod my head and smile when someone is trying to spin changes to mask their real reasons.

 

Are you sure this is what you want?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep

Edited November 2, 2014 by Halinalle

[aeterno]

The really sad bit is the game is 3 years old and they still haven't figured out how they're doing their endgame progression. Whereas with WoW you kinda know what you sign up for with TOR you get the vibe they're just winging it as they go, whatever happens happens, at the end of the day we can buy ourselves half a year more with a ludicrousmare difficulty. At this stage I wouldn't really be surprised at lvl 60 Eternity Vault lol. Edited November 2, 2014 by aeterno

[ivanhedgehog]

If you have full group in full 186 now NiM DP/DF is a joke because some classes do more damage currently than they are supposed to do. They can't balance L55 content based on L60 stats.

 

so because SOME classes with 186 gear BIS do a little more damage than intended they will nerf ALL classes no matter what level and gear? why not put a diminishing returns cap where it was needed and not break everyones ankles because 2 runners were too fast?

[ivanhedgehog]

Yeah no offense but I caught zero logic in what you just said...

 

180 is the minimum requirement not the recommended. The top content df/DP nim the recommended would be the top gear full 186.

 

Go back and do it with 180 lol you can't be serious...

 

that makes absolutely no sense...180 is the recommended level because you only get 186 from the nim op. how do you get what you need to do it if it only drops from the thing its needed for? it like if you could only get gormak inhibitors from nim pilgrim. wouldnt make much sense.

[Hikaru_Kuma]

Level up is supposed to make you more powerful. Isn't that the point of RPG/ MMO ? Or did I just waste a year playing the game? Am I going to spend another year grinding back to where I am now ?

 

If BW is going to make the current 186-lvl55 dps = 192- lvl60 dps. Why not just forget about increasing the lvl cap and release the new content. Make the new ops in sm drop 182-184, HM 186-188 and NiM 190.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Hikaru_Kuma

[Halinalle]

Level up is supposed to make you more powerful. Isn't that the point of RPG/ MMO ? Or did I just waste a year playing the game? Am I going to spend another year grinding back to where I am now ?

 

If BW is going to make the current 186-lvl55 dps = 192- lvl60 dps. Why not just forget about increasing the lvl cap and release the new content. Make the new ops in sm drop 182-184, HM 186-188 and NiM 190.

 

Watch it.

[Andryah]

From what I understand from the stream, they are lowering our damage to be more in line with how long they want fights to be.

 

Our current gear will be doing less at level 60 than it is now

 

If you equip the 198 gear (the new bis) and are level 60, your DPS will be similar to current 55s with 186 gear (from Dulfy notes).

 

This means people will be doing less damage for weeks or months than we currently do.

 

Imagine the rage when this goes live and people are seeing lower numbers... it will be glorious

 

I'm not a fan of this personally, what do you guys think?

 

I have to say, all these threads about them changing Damage rates is hilarious. Core issue = most of you just hate change unless it gives you personally a compelling advantage in game play.

 

1) MMOs are all about change over time. Some things go up, some things go down, some things stay the same. Why? Because if they leave everything the same, many people complain and then quit and go play the next MMO eye candy you can find.

 

Yes, they adjusting some combat mechanics and formulas to create a lower slope to how we grow DPS as we level. So what? They also said they are lowering the damage required to kill most mobs as well to balance all but the end game instanced encounters. This indicates to me that we will see no real change with respect to leveling from 1-CAP, and that they are taking the opportunity with the expansion (shocking that an MMO would use an expac release to reset some of the parameters of their game ) to retune their end game content. I really don't see the problem

 

Damage is relative in MMOs. Time to kill is what matters.

 

2) Anyone playing an MMO on the basis of raw DPS streams, rather then time to kill/down the target, does not know how MMOs are actually designed and played. Damage in and of itself does not matter in and MMO UNLESS it is in a pure 1:1 duel or PvP setting. And even the less intelligent and thoughtful of MMO players know that MMOs are not tuned around 1:1 play.

 

3) But the most hilarious part of this latest forum mass meldown is ----> none of you have actually seen or played the expac in it's release form yet. Which makes all of the complainers = arm chair complainers absent objective context (via actual play and observe the results inside the server. In other words.. this is the classic cry wolf meta game in the forums once again.

 

Here's a suggestion: Play the current release level of the game in preparation for the coming expac, wait until you actually get to play test the live version, then have your obligatory melt-downs (in a gaming forum of all places ) and get it out of your system based on fact rather then hyperbole, fear, uncertainty, and doubts.

 

Personally, I'll take a wait and see approach. They have, IMO, performed pretty well as an MMO company in providing us solid and well thought out (not perfect, just well thought out for broad appeal to the million plus players actively playing this game) MMO play. Which is not to say that they are in any way ever able to please all tastes and desires in the player base. Nor does it mean they have not made mistakes at times.

 

But the point in playing an MMO is ----> does it materially provide you the player with enjoyment and play time. MMOs are a macro-environment of many variable? Many of you however are focusing in on individual parameter changes without look at the bigger picture of playing inside an MMO.

 

In the meantime... all the teeth gnashing, and pulling out of hair and emotional melt downs in the forum DO make for good entertainment. So in that regard... you folks are doing well collectively. Besides... in the next week or so, I'm sure they will share something else with this community (a community that demands transparency, and then crucifies them on anything they reveal) and collectively the community will move to their next dramatic performance.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Andryah