Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Galactic Alliance vs Phantom Hegemony

[Beniboybling]

I'd just like to pop in and ask why everyone is ignoring Tholme here? You know, the guy that could easily create a master plan to destroy the Malevolence?

 

Jaina's great and all, but Tholme is an espionage genius. Not many people can even come close to this guys mind with espionage. He trained with Anazati for years, won countless victories in the Outer Rim, and survived Order 66. Hell, if he thinks Jaina and a squad will fail, he'll join them. And that makes the job even easier for him.

 

His only failed spy mission was Quinaln- and really, that wasn't even his fault. Quinalan was too weak to withstand the darkside. His genius, coupled with SpecForce, the Bothan Spynet, and Jaina, guarantee this ship goes down.

 

And on another note, I just realized how similar Karadon's faction is to my classic one. Very interesting.

Tholme is napping, getting on in years you know?

 

No but seriously, a fair point. But I bring up my previous one, the Malevolence is just too large for them to do any proper damage, the engines and the colossal and you'd need some kind of proton bomb to destroy the reactor.

 

At best they can disable the hyperdrive, or slice into the system and cause its cannons to go into flux for a brief moment.

Edited October 12, 2014 by Beniboybling

[karadron]

Tholme is napping, getting on in years you know?

 

No but seriously, a fair point. But I bring up my previous one, the Malevolence is just too large for them to do any proper damage, the engines and the colossal and you'd need some kind of proton bomb to destroy the reactor.

 

So...if that's the case then the Rebels were never able to destroy the Death Star with what little firepower they had. 4 km < 160 km.

[karadron]

One thing about Venators though is that they lack Ion Cannons, while Dreadnaughts are know to have them. It's just a question of how many. Those cannons I believe can make a real difference, at least hampering the engines in some way, keeping them from working constantly or having power spikes.

[Canino]

Tholme is napping, getting on in years you know?

 

No but seriously, a fair point. But I bring up my previous one, the Malevolence is just too large for them to do any proper damage, the engines and the colossal and you'd need some kind of proton bomb to destroy the reactor.

 

At best they can disable the hyperdrive, or slice into the system and cause its cannons to go into flux for a brief moment.

 

I'd beg to differ.

 

I'd assume the Bothan's already have the complete layout of the Malevolence, and even if they don't, it wouldn't be long before they had their paws on it.

 

Next would be acquiring some sort of explosive to really kill the ship- you mentioned proton bombs, so we will go with that for now, although any bomb could be acquired. This would be perhaps the simplest task- TIE bombers utilized proton bombs, as well as other bombs. Proton grenades could be procured by SpecForces, as the Rebels were quite fond of them. It should also be noted that the Rebels were using many illegal things, got weapons from the Black Market, and would no doubt have ties to explosives. If need be, Bothans could be used to gather weaponry as well.

 

The only difficult part would be boarding the ship, although this wouldn't be overly difficult. Once on board, Jaina would be capable of planting said explosive anywhere. With only 40 Storm Commandos, the PH wouldn't risk wasting them- likely only a few would participate in the battle. SpecForce is amazing as well- they constantly ran op's against the Empire, and rarely were caught. They snuck past Storm troopers on a daily basis, or are we forgetting this picture? Or this one? B1's are nothing for them.

 

Add on Tholme's tactical genius, and the ship goes down.

 

[Aurbere]

Thoughts on what I'm seeing.

 

1. Something I didn't see mentioned in Karadron's strategy is that the Chimaera has a cloaking device. I'm not sure if this one was a hybridium model, but if it were not it could be useful in such a flanking strategy.

 

2. As Beni said, Grievous has The Soulless One to use in case he needs to retreat. The question we should ask ourselves then is, who can catch him? Can Jaina take him? Will the TIE Phantoms will be able to? Keep in mind, though, that the Hegemony's numerically superior fighters will make catching Grievous extremely difficult.

 

3. How would the Bothans get the plans for the Malevolence?

 

4. If Tholme joins Jaina in boarding the Malevolence, their chances for success go up dramatically. However, how would he get there? I'm not sure he is noted as a fantastic pilot, and I doubt he's going to ride in Jaina's cockpit with her (the cockpit of a StealthX being quite compact, IIRC).

[Beniboybling]

I'd beg to differ.

 

I'd assume the Bothan's already have the complete layout of the Malevolence, and even if they don't, it wouldn't be long before they had their paws on it.

 

Next would be acquiring some sort of explosive to really kill the ship- you mentioned proton bombs, so we will go with that for now, although any bomb could be acquired. This would be perhaps the simplest task- TIE bombers utilized proton bombs, as well as other bombs. Proton grenades could be procured by SpecForces, as the Rebels were quite fond of them. It should also be noted that the Rebels were using many illegal things, got weapons from the Black Market, and would no doubt have ties to explosives. If need be, Bothans could be used to gather weaponry as well.

 

The only difficult part would be boarding the ship, although this wouldn't be overly difficult. Once on board, Jaina would be capable of planting said explosive anywhere. With only 40 Storm Commandos, the PH wouldn't risk wasting them- likely only a few would participate in the battle. SpecForce is amazing as well- they constantly ran op's against the Empire, and rarely were caught. They snuck past Storm troopers on a daily basis, or are we forgetting this picture? Or this one? B1's are nothing for them.

 

Add on Tholme's tactical genius, and the ship goes down.

I personally, do not assume the Bothan's have information on just about everything, cause Bothans.

 

There would be no reason or opportunity for them to acquire that kind of data.

 

The issue with a proton bomb is that its not the sort of thing you can lug around on your back at speed, despite what we see in KOTOR II you cannot simply place it in your inventory and be away.

 

Let's bear in mind the time frame here though, they don't have time to go shopping.

 

She can plant explosives anywhere, but only a few key locations will do any damage. Locations which will be well defended as soon as a breach is detected. And B1s are the least of your worries my friend. How about this one? Tholme's tactical genius won't be much use to him when his brain is frozen solid.

 

P.S. The Alliance doesn't have access to Infiltrators, just regular SpecForce infantry, see here.

[Beniboybling]

I knew this would happen, but seriously no supporters?

 

Edited October 12, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Canino]

Thoughts on what I'm seeing.

 

1. Something I didn't see mentioned in Karadron's strategy is that the Chimaera has a cloaking device. I'm not sure if this one was a hybridium model, but if it were not it could be useful in such a flanking strategy.

 

2. As Beni said, Grievous has The Soulless One to use in case he needs to retreat. The question we should ask ourselves then is, who can catch him? Can Jaina take him? Will the TIE Phantoms will be able to? Keep in mind, though, that the Hegemony's numerically superior fighters will make catching Grievous extremely difficult.

 

3. How would the Bothans get the plans for the Malevolence?

 

4. If Tholme joins Jaina in boarding the Malevolence, their chances for success go up dramatically. However, how would he get there? I'm not sure he is noted as a fantastic pilot, and I doubt he's going to ride in Jaina's cockpit with her (the cockpit of a StealthX being quite compact, IIRC).

 

I'd say that the A-Wings could catch him. Difficult, yes, but very possible. These ships are unbelievably fast.

 

As for the Bothans, like they always do. They gathered information from every corner of the galaxy. They used bribery, observation, trade, and spies to gather information. While the Malevolence was destroyed before the spynet's formation, I feel as though they would still have its layout.

 

Bothan's have always gathered information. It's a cultural thing- Bothan's live in tribes that are independent from one another. In order to survive as a tribe, they would gather information, spy, and perform other acts of espionage on other tribes. This would later become a way of protecting the species. Considering the danger that was the CIS, it's quite logical that the Bothan's would have gathered all information possible.

 

You also have the loose end that is Ziro the Hutt. The Bothan Spynet worked with all aspects of the galaxy, even the underbelly. They would no doubt have contact with the Hutt's, and could gather it that way.

 

Tholme, I don't believe, is a master pilot. I could see him joining Jaina (he would only serve to help her fly), or going in with an ace. Perhaps in an A-Wing.

[Selenial]

Why need the Bothans? The republic could scan it's entire layout, because it was all so large that the scanners were actually accurate enough. They directed Anakin and Obi-Wan through the rail system and up to the bridge, didn't they?

[Canino]

I personally, do not assume the Bothan's have information on just about everything, cause Bothans.

 

There would be no reason or opportunity for them to acquire that kind of data.

 

The Bothan's information network was second to none. Like I said, if they don;t have it now, it would be acquired instantly. Remember this quote? It applies here as well.

 

"What Imperial Intelligence cannot find, they go to the Black Sun. Take note folks, the Galactic Empire's Imperial Intel network is galaxy spanning and they themselves are able to gather a ton of information, utilizing their own highly trained agents and high technology.

 

Yet even they sometimes go to the Black Sun when they cannot gather the information.

 

The only other organization that the Black Sun hasn't infiltrated is the Bothan Spynet, it's only real competition in terms of galactic intelligence. Which again...that's not a low showing.

 

""Like the Bothan Spynet, Black Sun conducts its business in secret. Its members might be well known but they lead double lives and their real agenda is only known to the Black Sun.""

 

- Taken from Hero's Guide

 

Straight forward, much like the Spynet, Black Sun does business secret, members have double lives."

-Wolf

 

The Spynet was capable of getting the plans for the Death Star- I'm sure they can gather this up.

 

The issue with a proton bomb is that its not the sort of thing you can lug around on your back at speed, despite what we see in KOTOR II you cannot simply place it in your inventory and be away.

 

Let's bear in mind the time frame here though, they don't have time to go shopping.

 

Then the bomb is taken special care of. You mustn't forget proton grenades, thermal detonators, and an assortment of other grenades these guys will have.

 

She can plant explosives anywhere, but only a few key locations will do any damage. Locations which will be well defended as soon as a breach is detected. And B1s are the least of your worries my friend. How about this one? Tholme's tactical genius won't be much use to him when his brain is frozen solid.

 

I'd like to ask how these droids will see Jaina and Tholme? Both of which are can use force cloak, IIRC. As for the droid, dangerous, yes. But again, only twenty. And those would be much more useful on the ground.

 

P.S. The Alliance doesn't have access to Infiltrators, just regular SpecForce infantry, see here.

 

May I ask why? That just seems silly- you give them everything else.

[Aurbere]

I knew this would happen, but seriously no supporters?

 

 

I'm busy at the moment, but I'll post some stuff when I can.

[Beniboybling]

I'd say that the A-Wings could catch him. Difficult, yes, but very possible. These ships are unbelievably fast.

 

As for the Bothans, like they always do. They gathered information from every corner of the galaxy. They used bribery, observation, trade, and spies to gather information. While the Malevolence was destroyed before the spynet's formation, I feel as though they would still have its layout.

 

Bothan's have always gathered information. It's a cultural thing- Bothan's live in tribes that are independent from one another. In order to survive as a tribe, they would gather information, spy, and perform other acts of espionage on other tribes. This would later become a way of protecting the species. Considering the danger that was the CIS, it's quite logical that the Bothan's would have gathered all information possible.

 

You also have the loose end that is Ziro the Hutt. The Bothan Spynet worked with all aspects of the galaxy, even the underbelly. They would no doubt have contact with the Hutt's, and could gather it that way.

 

Tholme, I don't believe, is a master pilot. I could see him joining Jaina (he would only serve to help her fly), or going in with an ace. Perhaps in an A-Wing.

No record however is ever made of the Bothan's gathering this information, in fact it is explicitly stated that all the spies spying on the Malevolence where rounded up a dealt with. Nor did the Bothan's ever decide to trade this info.

 

We also shouldn't assume the Bothan's know everything, which is the inevitable conclusion of this line of thought.

[Beniboybling]

The Bothan's information network was second to none. Like I said, if they don;t have it now, it would be acquired instantly. Remember this quote? It applies here as well.

 

"What Imperial Intelligence cannot find, they go to the Black Sun. Take note folks, the Galactic Empire's Imperial Intel network is galaxy spanning and they themselves are able to gather a ton of information, utilizing their own highly trained agents and high technology.

 

Yet even they sometimes go to the Black Sun when they cannot gather the information.

 

The only other organization that the Black Sun hasn't infiltrated is the Bothan Spynet, it's only real competition in terms of galactic intelligence. Which again...that's not a low showing.

 

""Like the Bothan Spynet, Black Sun conducts its business in secret. Its members might be well known but they lead double lives and their real agenda is only known to the Black Sun.""

 

- Taken from Hero's Guide

 

Straight forward, much like the Spynet, Black Sun does business secret, members have double lives."

-Wolf

 

The Spynet was capable of getting the plans for the Death Star- I'm sure they can gather this up.

 

 

 

Then the bomb is taken special care of. You mustn't forget proton grenades, thermal detonators, and an assortment of other grenades these guys will have.

 

 

 

I'd like to ask how these droids will see Jaina and Tholme? Both of which are can use force cloak, IIRC. As for the droid, dangerous, yes. But again, only twenty. And those would be much more useful on the ground.

 

 

 

May I ask why? That just seems silly- you give them everything else.

1. See above, your assuming without proper basis IMO. Simply because the Bothan's have a wealth of information at their disposal does not mean they have this information, for that you will need further proof.

 

2. The point is that it is unwieldy, and makes them easy targets.

 

3. Neither Jaina nor Tholme have the ability to Force cloak I'm afraid.

 

4. Because Alliance Inflitrators are already taken, dummy.

[Selenial]

4. Because Alliance Inflitrators are already taken, dummy.

 

 

/5char

[Aurbere]

No record however is ever made of the Bothan's gathering this information, in fact it is explicitly stated that all the spies spying on the Malevolence where rounded up a dealt with. Nor did the Bothan's ever decide to trade this info.

 

We also shouldn't assume the Bothan's know everything, which is the inevitable conclusion of this line of thought.

 

I agree with this. Further proof would be needed, especially considering the nature of the Malevolence.

[Aurbere]

In regards to these smaller SSDs that the Nebula claims to be able to withstand, does anyone know what these ships are? That would at least provide some clarity on what it can and cannot handle.

[Warren-Stride]

I support you Beni! I am rooting for the PH all the way. But space isn't my forte and my time is (as always) limited. I'll pitch in when I can!

[Silenceo]

I support you Beni! I am rooting for the PH all the way. But space isn't my forte and my time is (as always) limited. I'll pitch in when I can!

 

Quick! Someone pass me the Vong-Spray!

 

Something that could be quite helpful, and while it might harm the GA, is to go over the ground forces that are being used in the space battle for boarding and defense. They are not often used in such arenas and I feel you could illuminate them a bit so we all understand them more, don't want units to go unexplored!!!

[Aurbere]

I wonder if Grievous knows about Trench's anti-stealth tactic. Theoretically, if he were micro-managing conflicts, he would at least have read the report, but that would probably be in Dooku's realm.

 

Thoughts?

[Silenceo]

I wonder if Grievous knows about Trench's anti-stealth tactic. Theoretically, if he were micro-managing conflicts, he would at least have read the report, but that would probably be in Dooku's realm.

 

Thoughts?

 

Sounds a lot more like Dooku to be honest.

 

Nor was it really a "tactic". It was more him exploiting a hunch he had, which turned into a great counter.

 

Though, are the stealth devices even of the same type?

Edited October 13, 2014 by Silenceo

[Aurbere]

Sounds a lot more like Dooku to be honest.

 

Probably so.

 

Moving on, Did anyone see my question above and have an answer to it?

[Silenceo]

Probably so.

 

Moving on, Did anyone see my question above and have an answer to it?

 

Nothing concrete, but it could have been referring to anything between an Allegiance-class, to a Mandator-class...

 

Allegiance being just slightly larger than a ISD, approximately 2,200.

 

A Praetor being about the Malevolence's length, approximately 4,800.

 

And Mandator being approximately 8,000.

 

 

All three of these were pretty dominant in the ship-to-ship category, just at different levels.

 

Side Note: Son of a... Of course, now that the Kaggath has started the Praetor MK II has details concerning armament... Oh well, the Allegiance is a great class of ship for its size anyways! *sniffle*

Edited October 13, 2014 by Silenceo

[Aurbere]

Nothing concrete, but it could have been referring to anything between an Allegiance-class, to a Mandator-class...

 

Allegiance being just slightly larger than a ISD, approximately 2,200.

 

A Praetor being about the Malevolence's length, approximately 4,800.

 

And Mandator being approximately 8,000.

 

 

All three of these were pretty dominant in the ship-to-ship category, just at different levels.

 

Side Note: Son of a... Of course, now that the Kaggath has started the Praetor MK II has details concerning armament... Oh well, the Allegiance is a great class of ship for its size anyways! *sniffle*

 

What do you think would be reasonable for it to take on then?

[Silenceo]

What do you think would be reasonable for it to take on then?

 

Hmm...

 

It likely could last quite a while against an Allegiance, since the Allegiance is just one step up from ISD, but not a fight it could actually win. Against the Allegiance, probably around 20-40 minutes. Against a Praetor, *similar to the Malevolence in many ways weapons wise* I would assume under concentrated fire, with no misses, its shields could likely last 5-10 minutes. Considering how long of a slug fest most capital ship fights are, that is still a respectable time. If it is not concentrated, like in this scenario, I would say quite a long up time indeed. Against a Mandator III... Probably 2-4 minutes shield up time.

 

These are merely an approximation on how long I feel the extremely advanced shielding of the Nebula's will hold out of they are constantly hammered by those amounts of weapons with concentrated fire. Knowing Garm, he likely would do something along the lines of move some of them to absorb the brunt, and when shields get low swap them out. I think Alliance tacticians did that when facing the Imperial Remnant, but I can not remember exactly when...

 

I also feel it is good to remember that against the Vong, the Nebula-class ships were kept at the core away from the fighting. ISD MK II's did decently against the vong capital ships, but the Nebula's wrecked the Vong when they encountered each other. That shielding is stronk.

 

"The hull armor and shield systems of the Nebula outclassed most other ships in the galaxy, including the Republic."

Edited October 13, 2014 by Silenceo

[Beniboybling]

Sounds a lot more like Dooku to be honest.

 

Nor was it really a "tactic". It was more him exploiting a hunch he had, which turned into a great counter.

 

Though, are the stealth devices even of the same type?

It was not a hunch, as Trench said "I have dealt with its kind before."

 

I suppose its an assumption to say that Grievous has also dealt with its kind, and knows how to deal with them, though he is a superior tactician. However lets not forget Imperial Intelligence, who have schematics on the Phantom itself.

 

Put Grievous in contact with them (which can be achieved instantly and securely thanks to the Munificents) and they can no doubt inform him of the TIE Phantom's weaknesses and how to counter it, I expect this would be among the intel.

 

Bear in mind that every tri-fighter is armed with discord missiles, and one hit could prove fatal for a Phantom.

 

P.S. There are two types of stealth devices, one is crap and useless and one is not, I suspect they are using the latter.