Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Galactic Alliance vs Phantom Hegemony

[karadron]

So.... Rebel Spec Force and 501st working together... hmmmm....

 

I don't think Vader's personal massacre squad and the most skilled freedom fighters in the galaxy are just going to shake hands. I don't care who your leaders are, the 501st has done horrible things, and I don't think anyone who has ever been a member of the Rebel Alliance or the New Republic would ever even consider enlisting their help.

 

I simply cannot see that happening.

 

But in certain cases enemies have to work together to deal with a worse threat. The rebels aren’t going to want another Sith reign to fall on the galaxy, so working with the 501st would be a better alternative. Don’t say leadership wouldn’t matter in this case because Pellaeon would be more than fair in dealing with any issues that could possibly arise. He’s a man who spent the last few decades of his life trying to create peace between the Empire and New Republic.

[Selenial]

Reasons why Grievous sucks for this battle!

 

Do not compound your failure this day by allowing our prized warship to fall.

 

Reputation.

This is grevious in a nutshell, it's all reputation. He has the reputation for a Military genius, and I don't dispute that. He also has the reputation of a savage brute.

However at this rate, Grievous reputation allows us for a closer analysis of his tactical abilities. In multiple sources we see that Grievous' heavily utilized a numbers advantage in his war strategy. Anyone who disputes this is biased beyond saving...

We see during his invasion of Kamino Anakin, Obi Wan and Shaak Ti's reaction to a strategy by Grievous. He literally launches ship after ship after ship for no apparent reason, hoping to break the blockade. We find out it was a Seperatist plot, but that doesnt change the fact that we see how his reputation holds up.

Shaak Ti and Anakin aren't surprised by the Strategy, they think nothing is wrong and there's no reason to be alarmed. The only thing they actually realize is that Grievous doesn't have his usual huge numbers advantage.

The only person who notices Grievous' true plan, is the person who knows him best. And what gave it away to dear Obi-Wan? The fact Grievous hadn't brought a fleet twice the size. Nothing to do with his reckless strategy.

 

His reputation holds up in multiple sources too, even Ventress and Eeth Koth view him as a horrendous tactician:

Enjoy your retreat, General. It seems to be what you do best.

The reputation of a coward

 

But on further we must delve, because apparently this isn't enough.

 

How about this time we point to the battle of Saleucami? A smaller republic fleet, though arguably better ships, engaged Grievous. What happened? Well, he got cocky, angry, sacrificed his entire fleet and nearly died in the process.

 

Or the time when Dooku sent a Jedi council member into Grievous' hideout for the sole reason that he and Sidious thought Grievous was underperforming. Or in the very second episode of the damn Series, where Dooku shows a palpable disgust in Grievous' strategic abilities?

 

I could go on and on, but if none of you will bother listening to this then what's the point. You seem to refuse to even read what I type, I'm not saying Grievous is the worst tactician to ever live, he's decent, but his strategy will not mesh well with Beni's forces and vice Versa, Grievous isn't used to this kind of force.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Selenial

[Aurbere]

I could go on and on, but if none of you will bother listening to this then what's the point. You seem to refuse to even read what I type, I'm not saying Grievous is the worst tactician to ever live, he's decent, but his strategy will not mesh well with Beni's forces and vice Versa, Grievous isn't used to this kind of force.

 

Don't be getting snippy now. We were just saying that you were downplaying Grievous pretty severely.

 

Anyway, you make some interesting points. A bit TCW heavy, but points nonetheless.

[karadron]

Don't be getting snippy now. We were just saying that you were downplaying Grievous pretty severely.

 

Anyway, you make some interesting points. A bit TCW heavy, but points nonetheless.

 

With Disney in control you can't be TCW heavy, cause it's the most "accurate" portrayal of that era.

 

I used to like Grievous, but then he took a cartoon to the knee.

[Aurbere]

With Disney in control you can't be TCW heavy, cause it's the most "accurate" portrayal of that era.

 

I used to like Grievous, but then he took a cartoon to the knee.

 

Sadly quoted for truth.

 

Stormtroopers also appear to be joining him in mediocrity, it seems.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Aurbere

[Selenial]

Don't be getting snippy now. We were just saying that you were downplaying Grievous pretty severely.

 

Anyway, you make some interesting points. A bit TCW heavy, but points nonetheless.

 

....

 

 

Oh, I could go on about non TCW sources too, but what's the point? TCW Is the highest level of Canon. People disregard the original show because Windu, Anakin and Obi Wan aren't that OP in the new show, so why should we use Grevious' feats that might contradict the new canon too? I'm just keeping to what appears to be the standard.

[karadron]

Sadly quoted for truth.

 

Stormtroopers also appear to be joining him in mediocrity, it seems.

 

It is a sad day. I don't know whether to be happy or sad I haven't been able to see Rebels yet.

[Selenial]

Sadly quoted for truth.

 

Stormtroopers also appear to be joining him in mediocrity, it seems.

 

Don't even get me started on their performance in rebels....

 

[Aurbere]

Oh, I could go on about non TCW sources too, but what's the point? TCW Is the highest level of Canon. People disregard the original show because Windu, Anakin and Obi Wan aren't that OP in the new show, so why should we use Grevious' feats that might contradict the new canon too? I'm just keeping to what appears to be the standard.

 

Alright. Well, you make some fair points. I don't think it's as severe as "Grievous sucks" but the point is made.

 

I'd like to think we can strike a middle ground and say that Grievous is a great tactician. He should be able to hold his own here. Also, Grievous does have a significant numbers and firepower advantage, so he is working with what he usually works with.

[Aurbere]

Don't even get me started on their performance in rebels....

 

 

You can if you want. I know full well how awful they were.

[Aurbere]

So I would like to advise Beni and Karadron start with opening arguments/faction breakdowns. Give us an idea of what you think your faction will do and how it will deal with the enemy.

 

In addition here are some space topics to consider:

 

1. General Grievous vs. Gilad Pellaeon/Garm Bel Iblis (Whoever is in space). Who is the superior tactician and what impact will that have on the battle?

2. Tactics both sides will use.

3. Jaina Solo in a starfighter.

4. Impact of the Malevolence

5. Assassinating Naval Commanders

6. Boarding Parties

7. Ship-to-Ship Comparisons

 

I'd like to bring this back up so that it doesn't get forgotten. I would also like to see faction breakdowns and initial arguments.

 

I want walls of text. Big ol' walls o' text. Ya hear?

Edited October 6, 2014 by Aurbere

[Beniboybling]

Completely stripped of weapons and star fighters, right?! *Seriously, they could carry so many...*

Well the Central Droid Computer was not an irremovable feature of a Droid Control Ship, in fact it was an augmentation. So I'd assume it could be stuck in any capable warship, a Lucrehulk just does it best.

[Aurbere]

Well the Central Droid Computer was not an irremovable feature of a Droid Control Ship, in fact it was an augmentation. So I'd assume it could be stuck in any capable warship, a Lucrehulk just does it best.

 

Apparently Grievous' flagship had one as well, as made apparent in Son of Dathomir. So I'm assuming most capital ships would be capable of using CCCs.

[Beniboybling]

Reasons why Grievous sucks for this battle!

 

Do not compound your failure this day by allowing our prized warship to fall.

 

Reputation.

This is grevious in a nutshell, it's all reputation. He has the reputation for a Military genius, and I don't dispute that. He also has the reputation of a savage brute.

However at this rate, Grievous reputation allows us for a closer analysis of his tactical abilities. In multiple sources we see that Grievous' heavily utilized a numbers advantage in his war strategy. Anyone who disputes this is biased beyond saving...

We see during his invasion of Kamino Anakin, Obi Wan and Shaak Ti's reaction to a strategy by Grievous. He literally launches ship after ship after ship for no apparent reason, hoping to break the blockade. We find out it was a Seperatist plot, but that doesnt change the fact that we see how his reputation holds up.

Shaak Ti and Anakin aren't surprised by the Strategy, they think nothing is wrong and there's no reason to be alarmed. The only thing they actually realize is that Grievous doesn't have his usual huge numbers advantage.

The only person who notices Grievous' true plan, is the person who knows him best. And what gave it away to dear Obi-Wan? The fact Grievous hadn't brought a fleet twice the size. Nothing to do with his reckless strategy.

 

His reputation holds up in multiple sources too, even Ventress and Eeth Koth view him as a horrendous tactician:

Enjoy your retreat, General. It seems to be what you do best.

The reputation of a coward

 

But on further we must delve, because apparently this isn't enough.

 

How about this time we point to the battle of Saleucami? A smaller republic fleet, though arguably better ships, engaged Grievous. What happened? Well, he got cocky, angry, sacrificed his entire fleet and nearly died in the process.

 

Or the time when Dooku sent a Jedi council member into Grievous' hideout for the sole reason that he and Sidious thought Grievous was underperforming. Or in the very second episode of the damn Series, where Dooku shows a palpable disgust in Grievous' strategic abilities?

 

I could go on and on, but if none of you will bother listening to this then what's the point. You seem to refuse to even read what I type, I'm not saying Grievous is the worst tactician to ever live, he's decent, but his strategy will not mesh well with Beni's forces and vice Versa, Grievous isn't used to this kind of force.

First lets be clear on one thing, Grievous has a reputation for being a military genius because he is one, attempt to dispute this all you like but the fact remains that it is a plain fact stated by canonical sources.

 

Concerning your example, I can only assume you are misremembering, because the reasons behind Kenobi suspecting Grievous' strategy has nothing to do with numbers and everything to do with strategy.

 

No mention is every made in regards to numbers, it is purely your assumption that this is what tips him off.

 

On the other hand these are Kenobi's actual words:

 

"No Anakin, wait. Its to easy. Not even Grievous would attack so recklessly."

 

It was absolutely his reckless strategy that tipped Kenobi off, which only proves that Grievous while aggressive is not reckless with abandon, and that Anakin was too stubborn and Shaak Ti to inexperienced to realise this.

 

The second example merely proves that when the going gets tough, Grievous gets going, and is not willing to risk his own neck to achieve victory. It is a leap in logic to assume that this makes him a "horrendous tactician."

 

I'm not going to argue that Grievous doesn't have character flaws, but again this does not make him a poor tactician. Unfortunately in this instance Gilad doesn't know how to push Grievous' buttons, nor does he has any tasty bait. Did Grievous occasionally screw up when his ego got the better of him? Yes. But never was he beaten on naval terms.

 

You claimed he was a horrendous tactician and that he "sucked", and that 90% of his abilities will be completely irrelevant in this conflict, and yet for some reason I continue to acknowledged your points. If you perhaps toned down the hyperbole I might be able to acknowledge some of your more valid points, but your current stance is one I cannot accept.

 

Anyway if that is the extent of your evidence then I shall leave it there, and leave Aurbere to make a decision.

[Beniboybling]

I'd like to bring this back up so that it doesn't get forgotten. I would also like to see faction breakdowns and initial arguments.

 

I want walls of text. Big ol' walls o' text. Ya hear?

I have a big wall of text, but I want to give my opponent a chance before I let loose the dogs of war and all.

[Aurbere]

Anyway if that is the extent of your evidence then I shall leave it there, and leave Aurbere to make a decision.

 

Well, I don't want to say who's better and make it K-canon, but I already shared my opinion on Grievous. I feel that my original statement on the matter is enough to say that Grievous is not outclassed.

 

I would also remind everyone that, even if Grievous is at a tactical disadvantage, he is working with some major advantages. He has numbers and firepower on his side, and he knows the capabilities of most of his ships. So even if we say that Grievous works better with superior numbers, that isn't a point against him because he has those numbers.

 

So those are my thoughts on the matter. This discussion can continue, but I would advise moving on to how their tactics will affect the battle.

[Aurbere]

I have a big wall of text, but I want to give my opponent a chance before I let loose the dogs of war and all.

 

That's a good idea.

[Beniboybling]

Well, I don't want to say who's better and make it K-canon, but I already shared my opinion on Grievous. I feel that my original statement on the matter is enough to say that Grievous is not outclassed.

 

I would also remind everyone that, even if Grievous is at a tactical disadvantage, he is working with some major advantages. He has numbers and firepower on his side, and he knows the capabilities of most of his ships. So even if we say that Grievous works better with superior numbers, that isn't a point against him because he has those numbers.

 

So those are my thoughts on the matter. This discussion can continue, but I would advise moving on to how their tactics will affect the battle.

Well what I meant was your final decision, I've made my points and I'm leaving you to weigh up both sides when push comes to shove. But I don't want to get caught in an endless debate. Edited October 6, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Well what I meant was your final decision, I've made my points and I'm leaving you to weigh up both sides when push comes to shove. But I don't want to get caught in an endless debate.

 

Well, I've weighed in on it. I think Grievous is better than Sel is saying, but I think she makes a point about him working better with more numbers. But considering he has that advantage, it doesn't really matter.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Aurbere

[Canino]

It was absolutely his reckless strategy that tipped Kenobi off, which only proves that Grievous while aggressive is not reckless with abandon, and that Anakin was too stubborn and Shaak Ti to inexperienced to realize this.

 

I'm going to stop you right there. Shaak Ti is about as far away from inexperienced as one can get. Do I need to go into details? Because I can, and believe me, I will.

 

P.S. Congrats on the win, Aurbere. Very close battle. I'm a little upset with some sections of the scenario, and I obviously hoped I would win, you did a fantastic job. It was a well won victory.

[Beniboybling]

I'm going to stop you right there. Shaak Ti is about as far away from inexperienced as one can get. Do I need to go into details? Because I can, and believe me, I will.

 

P.S. Congrats on the win, Aurbere. Very close battle. I'm a little upset with some sections of the scenario, and I obviously hoped I would win, you did a fantastic job. It was a well won victory.

Oh dear, I've incured the wrath of the Shaak Ti fan club.

 

Seriously though, I don't recall Shaak Ti having much in the way of naval experience. She seemed to spend most the war on Kamino or performing special strike team orientated missiles, not commanding navies, certainly not against Grievous.

 

Or at least, that is how she is portrayed in TCW, which does exist in a bubble of sorts.

[Canino]

Oh dear, I've incured the wrath of the Shaak Ti fan club.

 

Seriously though, I don't recall Shaak Ti having much in the way of naval experience. She seemed to spend most the war on Kamino or performing special strike team orientated missiles, not commanding navies, certainly not against Grievous.

 

Or at least, that is how she is portrayed in TCW, which does exist in a bubble of sorts.

 

Your just jealous the Traya fan club doesn't get to wear montrails at all the meetings

 

But actually, she was an all around masterful tactician. One of only a few High Jedi Generals, the woman in charge of training the clones and protecting Kamino (perhaps the most important Republic planet), and was the saving grace of the battle of Brentaal IV. While she doesn't have many naval showings, she was deeply involved with planning multiple battles, including Geonosis. She is also credited with winning the battles of Centares and Ando, as well as accompanying Yoda in a crusade on an unnamed planet. Combine that with her unmatched cunning and you have someone who can't be described by inexperienced. No. She is much to cunning, resourceful, and experienced to be fooled by Grievous.

 

She has few naval showing, I agree. But she worked coordinating many battles, was tasked on multiple occasions with commanding planet wide battles, and had the skills to be in charge of training all clones troopers on Kamino. That says something.

[Aurbere]

P.S. Congrats on the win, Aurbere. Very close battle. I'm a little upset with some sections of the scenario, and I obviously hoped I would win, you did a fantastic job. It was a well won victory.

 

Thank you. It was a tough fight for sure.

[LadyKulvax]

Supreme Commander Gilad Pallaeon was considered so good that even Darth Caedus believed he would lose a war with Gilad on the opposite side, he was considered the absolute apex of military command and Caedus decided he either joins him or kills him and there be the fate of Pallaeon.

 

He gets lowballed because he didn't go on completely senseless flashy missions that fans could get off to, no he was a completely logical tactician whom was the main reason the Empire survived it's many defeats from Endor on-wards.

 

He is absolutely the man to keep a fleet together and he was considered so damn good they named an entire class of Star Destroyer after him.

 

He repeatedly rescued the remnant from complete collapse all by his damn self, he lives and breathes being out-gunned hopelessly in fights, he knows what fights he can win and lose and makes the logical choice every time.

 

Gilad is one of the best tacticians but gets overlooked, even Ackbar said that if it wasn't for that man the New Republic would've stamped out the remnant the moment Palpatine had died.

 

Let's make no mistake, Gilad held the empire together after the Battle of Endor, when all the Moffs and Grand Moffs were off staking warlord-ship over *insert generic system here*, Gilad was the man organizing and keeping together the fleets.

 

Then Thrawn turned up, took the fleets and waged a war with Gilad as his immediate second, then the Nagai killed Thrawn. So Gilad took the Chimaera and the rest of the fleet and kept it together, then the Emperor returned, got himself and an enormous fleet destroyed.

 

But Gilad in all the chaos kept the Imperials together and made tactical retreats, saving as many ships as he could and then he had to keep the Imperials from destroying themselves through people like Daala and Isard.

 

Gilad deserves way way more credit than he gets, when he actually has the numbers on an even playing field the NR shat themselves every time.

 

But they also knew that Gilad was one of the only Imperials they could potentially work with and see eye-to-eye with.

 

When the Vong turned up, Gilad was considered galactic enemy number one, the Vong Warlords knew if they killed him the alliance would defeat itself, they tried to get rid of him, but they failed. Along with Ackbar, Gilad kept the space battles winnable, in the largest most costly war.. or perhaps 'hell' would be a more appropriate term and damn well survived it.

 

He didn't get selected Supreme Commander for nothing, be it a battle, a war or the galactic stage itself... he did it all.

 

And that is just one of the tacticians on the team.

Edited October 7, 2014 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

Well as far as I can see Gilad hasn't achieved anything that Grievous hasn't achieved, nor does he have more impressive accolades, so - and this is not directed at you per se - I do not see evidence to suggest Gilad is a superior tactician. I have reasons to believe the Grievous is the superior tactician but they are subjective so all in all I feel this will be decided by the capabilities of the fleets themselves, and I think we can all (maybe) agree they won't run circles around eachother.

 

I'd also like to point out two things:

 

1. Superior numbers is an advantage that benefits any tactician, the fact that Grievous was cunning enough and had the necessary resources to afford this advantage does not at all suggest he is dependent on it.

 

No military mastermind is is going to be saddled by that kind of weakness.

 

2. Gilad + Garm is all well and good, but 1 + 1 doesn't necessarily equal 2 here. These are both heavyweight tacticians who come from very different strategic backgrounds and likely operate in very different ways. I find it unlikely that they will mesh well together, and Gilad would probably prefer Garm out of his way on the ground.

 

On the other hand Grievous + Lumiya could prove a very effective combination. Remember Lumiya is a master strategist herself and isn't going to be planetside twiddling her thumbs. Indeed the bridge the Malevolence is capable of projecting her image straight into the heart of the conflict where she can oversee Grievous' movements a la Dooku.

 

No, Lumiya is not an amazing naval commander. But all she needs to do is ensure Grievous' ego doesn't get the better of him, that he doesn't make brash moves or take any bait, which pretty much accounts for all his defeats.