Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Fist of the Empire vs the Confederacy

[Selenial]

Trade Federation =/= Separatists. And don't forget that this was because of Grievous' new style of warfare. They couldn't afford to produce the best droids in the numbers Grievous was using. Heck, the whole plan was to use mass numbers to spread Republic and Jedi forces thin across the galaxy.

 

And I refuse to debate plot armor. It's a stupid argument that makes no sense in this kind of context. No one can die because they need to survive until they die!

 

Agreed on everything.

 

The whole point was spreading Jedi across the Galaxy...

 

And so much agreed on Plot armour, it's not that Luke had to survive to be in ROTJ, it's that Luke being in ROTJ just proved he could survive everything that happened etc.

 

Mauls death wasn't plot armor, it was overconfidence.

[Warren-Stride]

I was referring to Swtor when I said 50/50....

 

And again, Dooku isn't the Empire, he used criminals all the time, rarely killed them, and payed them unbelievable amounts of money.

 

Maybe I did get caught up in the name a little bit... like I said, it basically turned into a rambling about the underworld and how it works and I kinda ignored the context of that analysis in this Kaggath...

 

But I'm not sure about this whole 50/50 thing. However, bringing up SWTOR reminded me of the Voidwolf.

 

MAJOR SMUGGLER STORY SPOILERS

 

But honestly, if you really cared about the class story endings not being spoiled, you would have played them all through by now.

 

Harridax Kirill, aka the Voidwolf, was an Imperial commander during the Cold War. He started his career as a criminal slaver in the Outer Rim before becoming an Imperial privateer and working his way up the ranks of the Imperial war machine.

 

Once he had power, the Voidwolf's goal was "to gather the greatest underworld alliance the galaxy has ever seen, and use its fleet to pillage the Republic shipyards, and then Coruscant itself." The Voidwolf succeeded in creating a pirate fleet... But how?

 

The Voidwolf was a former slaver. He was a criminal, he knew how they worked, and he knew how to work with them. BUT the most important detail of all is that this pirate fleet was going to attack the Republic and plunder it for loot. In SWTOR, there are two governments. Working against one government is as good as working against the other, at least in the short term.

 

And so, when the Smuggler defeats the Voidwolf, "the captains of scum and villainy gladly transfer their loyalties to the Smuggler." Why? Well, the smuggler is a renowned figure in the underworld. And they want to continue the pirating.... just on a different government. The Empire. (For reasons I previously stated, all criminals in SWTOR should want the Republic to win the war.)

 

This relates to this Kaggath in this way: the Voidwolf shows that a powerful figure with criminal background can create a pirate fleet and the Smuggler shows that the pirates have no issue fighting for either side, as long as they are fighting against a government.

 

In this Kaggath, Xizor has the ultimate criminal background and much more infamy than the Smuggler. Additionally, if the criminals were to work for the Fist of the Empire, not only would they be working for the government, but also against their own community. Sure, criminals fight among themselves. But they know that the underworld has to remain strong, as a whole, if any of them want to survive. When rallied to a common cause (plundering of a government) pirates and criminals heed that call. But if they are summoned to fight other criminals.... they become nothing but bounty hunters, the beings that they despise for their role in weakening their organizations.

 

Again I'm not really sure what I just wrote... But it makes sense to me, at least.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Warren-Stride

[Canino]

Trade Federation =/= Separatists. And don't forget that this was because of Grievous' new style of warfare. They couldn't afford to produce the best droids in the numbers Grievous was using. Heck, the whole plan was to use mass numbers to spread Republic and Jedi forces thin across the galaxy.

 

And I refuse to debate plot armor. It's a stupid argument that makes no sense in this kind of context. No one can die because they need to survive until they die!

 

That is true. However, Neimoidians are known throughout the galaxy as being extremely greedy and obsessed with status. Spending their wealth on droids and the underworld would not help either of those traits.

 

And I generally do not use plot armor as a argument, although I did make this exception. It simply makes sense to me that he could not win that engagement with all the power in the galaxy. But I digress.

 

I'm beginning to believe that Ventress could be seduced by Xizor. Pheromones are more powerful on the opposite sex, and we see Quinlan fall for a male Falleen. I think Ventress could be swayed to serve Xizor.

[Canino]

~snip~

 

I love you

 

Everything you said makes perfect sense, and is what I have been trying to get across the entire time.

[Selenial]

Maybe I did get caught up in the name a little bit... like I said, it basically turned into a rambling about the underworld and how it works and I kinda ignored the context of that analysis in this Kaggath...

 

But I'm not sure about this whole 50/50 thing. However, bringing up SWTOR reminded me of the Voidwolf.

 

MAJOR SMUGGLER STORY SPOILERS

 

But honestly, if you really cared about the class story endings not being spoiled, you would have played them all through by now.

 

Harridax Kirill, aka the Voidwolf, was an Imperial commander during the Cold War. He started his career as a criminal slaver in the Outer Rim before becoming an Imperial privateer and working his way up the ranks of the Imperial war machine.

 

Once he had power, the Voidwolf's goal was "to gather the greatest underworld alliance the galaxy has ever seen, and use its fleet to pillage the Republic shipyards, and then Coruscant itself." The Voidwolf succeeded in creating a pirate fleet... But how?

 

The Voidwolf was a former slaver. He was a criminal, he knew how they worked, and he knew how to work with them. BUT the most important detail of all is that this pirate fleet was going to attack the Republic and plunder it for loot. In SWTOR, there are two governments. Working against one government is as good as working against the other, at least in the short term.

 

And so, when the Smuggler defeats the Voidwolf, "the captains of scum and villainy gladly transfer their loyalties to the Smuggler." Why? Well, the smuggler is a renowned figure in the underworld. And they want to continue the pirating.... just on a different government. The Empire. (For reasons I previously stated, all criminals in SWTOR should want the Republic to win the war.)

 

This relates to this Kaggath in this way: the Voidwolf shows that a powerful figure with criminal background can create a pirate fleet and the Smuggler shows that the pirates have no issue fighting for either side, as long as they are fighting against a government.

 

In this Kaggath, Xizor has the ultimate criminal background and much more infamy than the Smuggler. Additionally, if the criminals were to work for the Fist of the Empire, not only would they be working for the government, but also against their own community. Sure, criminals fight among themselves. But they know that the underworld has to remain strong, as a whole, if any of them want to survive. When rallied to a common cause (plundering of a government) pirates and criminals heed that call. But if they are summoned to fight other criminals.... they become nothing but bounty hunters, the beings that they despise for their role in weakening their organizations.

 

Again I'm not really sure what I just wrote... But it makes sense to me, at least.

 

Fighting against a Government, or fighting for money?

 

What's the difference between an Empire, and Xizor? Xizor has rules. Xizor will not want competition. Xizor won't tolerate failure. Xizor wants galactic domination. Xizor wants to rule. Xizor will tax money. Xizor will annihilate any competition.

 

The problem is you all seem to forget that Criminals were just Governments with different rules, and without the power to actually achieve what they want.

[Warren-Stride]

Fighting against a Government, or fighting for money?

 

What's the difference between an Empire, and Xizor? Xizor has rules. Xizor will not want competition. Xizor won't tolerate failure. Xizor wants galactic domination. Xizor wants to rule. Xizor will tax money. Xizor will annihilate any competition.

 

The problem is you all seem to forget that Criminals were just Governments with different rules, and without the power to actually achieve what they want.

 

The money is in fighting against a government. By fighting against the Empire/Republic, the pirates (in the case of the Voidwolf example) get plunder. I don't remember the Smuggler ever offering credits upfront. The money comes from taking slaves, valuable items, materials, and whatnot. And then selling those on the black market, which helps to strengthen the underworld, grows the crime lord's influence, and generates plenty of credits without the need for a down payment.

 

From what I can tell, this Kaggath tournament is happening in a singular universe, correct? While this Kaggath is going on, the IDD and the AiR are fighting on Taris, for example. If that is the case, this is only one battle. One chance for these criminals to plunder the Fist of the Empire for all its worth. And once it's over? They go plunder someone else, another faction. If they work with the Fist of the Empire, the underworld takes a massive blow. The Black Market crashes. The Black Sun dissipates. There are far fewer people to hire you to do anything other than bounty hunting. Bounty hunting in of itself thrives as criminals with no organization to offer protection are picked off one by one.

 

The difference is, no government wants criminals to thrive. Because a criminal is someone who works against the government. The Confederacy wants crime to spread. Criminals don't have power to achieve what they want? Well, it looks like they do now. Why wouldn't they jump at the chance to solidify that power?

[Aurbere]

That is true. However, Neimoidians are known throughout the galaxy as being extremely greedy and obsessed with status. Spending their wealth on droids and the underworld would not help either of those traits.

 

And I generally do not use plot armor as a argument, although I did make this exception. It simply makes sense to me that he could not win that engagement with all the power in the galaxy. But I digress.

 

I'm beginning to believe that Ventress could be seduced by Xizor. Pheromones are more powerful on the opposite sex, and we see Quinlan fall for a male Falleen. I think Ventress could be swayed to serve Xizor.

 

And yet the Neimoidians helped build a massive droid army. They'll do what Dooku tells them to do.

 

Plot armor is, and always will be, an invalid argument in my eyes.

 

I don't see Ventress being seduced. Aayla Secura was able to resist him ( a Falleen, I mean), I have no doubt Ventress would be able to do the same. One reason for this is because she would be betraying Dooku, whom she practically worships like a god. This is pre-betrayal Ventress so no concept of betrayal has ever entered her mind.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Aurbere

[Beniboybling]

I'd like to post this map here. It is a good showing of the terrain and distance between are bases. Note the long stretch of Dune Sea in between.

 

Also, do I have access to the sail barges, swoops, and speeders in the hanger of Jabba's Palace? And do I get both the Krayt dragon and Rancor?

Nope. No such assets in Jabba's Palace. You of course have the hangar though.

 

I didn't know Jabba had a Krayt Dragon, I suppose one could say the rancor is a "defensive system" so sure.

It's likely to be controlled by the Hutts, though they don't exist, so who's controlling them? Are they just there to be bought?

I assume your referring to Mos Eisely in general, well it wasn't really controlled by the Hutts they just had a presence, in this case that presence is gone. Only a Black Sun presence (if there is one) and a general criminal presence remains.

No named figures.

Durga is allowed, he is part of Black Sun leadership i.e. not an outside party. Edited August 12, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

I assume your referring to Mos Eisely in general, well it wasn't really controlled by the Hutts they just had a presence, in this case that presence is gone. Only a Black Sun presence (if there is one) and a general criminal presence remains.

 

Well then, the first thing that needs to be done is wipe the criminal presence out in order to ensure the security and stability of the Fist's base.

[Selenial]

Nope. No such assets in Jabba's Palace. You of course have the hangar though.

 

I didn't know Jabba had a Krayt Dragon, I suppose one could say the rancor is a "defensive system" so sure.I assume your referring to Mos Eisely in general, well it wasn't really controlled by the Hutts they just had a presence, in this case that presence is gone. Only a Black Sun presence (if there is one) and a general criminal presence remains.Durga is allowed, he is part of Black Sun leadership i.e. not an outside party.

 

Agreed on this stuff.

 

As for the last bit, wasn't there some whole thing in the first Kaggath about no named figures in Suppliers/Orginisations, and that all jobs are replaced with randomers? (I believe you called the man in question Bob Rothana?)

[Selenial]

Well then, the first thing that needs to be done is wipe the criminal presence out in order to ensure the security and stability of the Fist's base.

 

I'd say Dooku would just keep them running, under guard or watch.

 

He's not stupid, he won't alienate the Underworld like that.

[Beniboybling]

Let's also note that Dooku and Ventress know the palace well.

Let me guess, they visited like one time.

[Selenial]

Let me guess, they visited like one time.

 

Dooku went often, actually. Convincing Jabba to join him was one of the keys to the war, and he was pretty successful.

[Aurbere]

I'd say Dooku would just keep them running, under guard or watch.

 

He's not stupid, he won't alienate the Underworld like that.

 

I guess that's a good point.

[Selenial]

I guess that's a good point.

 

Imperial intelligence bro.

They were great at finding moles, and Dooku has nothing to worry about if he has them keeping an eye on things.

[Beniboybling]

Guys guys come on. Its pretty damn obvious that the majority of the criminals are going to side with the Confederacy of criminals so they can commit crimes with impunity. No Dooku is not the Empire but he is a Sith Lord and those troops he's got don't exactly look friendly. What's more Xizor has deeper pockets.

 

Who would they rather win? This is a no brainer, lets not argue against it for the sake of arguing. Instead lets pursue actual logical avenues of argument here and no assume that Dooku is going to lower himself to dealing with criminal scum and actually allow them to exist in his territory. He is going to exterminate them, plain and simple.

 

P.S. Criminals can be dumb but they are not that dumb, they know siding with Xizor will pay off in the long term.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Imperial intelligence bro.

They were great at finding moles, and Dooku has nothing to worry about if he has them keeping an eye on things.

 

Right, yeah.

[Aurbere]

Guys guys come on. Its pretty damn obvious that the majority of the criminals are going to side with the Confederacy of criminals so they can commit crimes with impunity. No Dooku is not the Empire but he is a Sith Lord and those troops he's got don't exactly look friendly. What's more Xizor has deeper pockets.

 

Who would they rather win? This is a no brainer, lets not argue against it for the sake of arguing. Instead lets pursue actual logical avenues of argument here and no assume that Dooku is going to lower himself to dealing with criminal scum and actually allow them to exist in his territory. He is going to exterminate them, plain and simple.

 

P.S. Criminals can be dumb but they are not that dumb, they know siding with Xizor will pay off in the long term.

 

Actually, Dooku worked with criminals rather often, even employing them to fight the Republic early in the war. But you are correct that the criminals would side with Xizor, I think that's rather obvious.

[Beniboybling]

Actually, Dooku worked with criminals rather often, even employing them to fight the Republic early in the war. But you are correct that the criminals would side with Xizor, I think that's rather obvious.

I don't doubt that, but I expect that was on a need to basis. I don't think Dooku will bother here en masse, but rather targeting specific persons to gain intel etc.

 

But basically, they aren't going to rally around him, Ventress isn't going door to door.

[Beniboybling]

Agreed on this stuff.

 

As for the last bit, wasn't there some whole thing in the first Kaggath about no named figures in Suppliers/Orginisations, and that all jobs are replaced with randomers? (I believe you called the man in question Bob Rothana?)

No that was the opposite, Star pointed to the fact that Rothana has no named leadership as a means of asserting nobody would be there to sway. But obviously they had a leadership structure they just haven't been named in lore. So I in jest named him Bob Rothana. But recall how Aurbere's Techno Union had Wat Tambor etc. etc.

 

They are however limited in how they can act on the Kaggath:

 

#32 Members of said suppliers e.g. leaders, administrators etc. are also present in the Kaggath but they can only affect it in limited ways. They can be acted upon and influenced e.g. persuaded to defect, killed, reasoned with etc. but cannot directly take control or issue commands over anything other than their own power base e.g. your supply base.

 

That applies to organisations as well.

[Beniboybling]

Dooku went often, actually. Convincing Jabba to join him was one of the keys to the war, and he was pretty successful.

And I'm sure Jabba gave him the grand tour.

[Canino]

Dooku went often, actually. Convincing Jabba to join him was one of the keys to the war, and he was pretty successful.

 

Again, I don't think that mission took more then a few days. And why on Earth would Jabba show every little detail and secret to Dooku? He isn't stupid.

 

And not so successful. He ended up losing.

 

"As the Republic investigated, the leader of the Confederacy, Count Dooku, approached Jabba and convinced the Hutt that the Jedi were responsible for kidnapping the Huttlet. Dooku made Jabba suspect that the Jedi were using the Huttlet as a way of bartering with the crime lord and eventually toppling his regime, when in fact Dooku was responsible for arranging the kidnapping in the first place. An enraged Jabba was led to believe the Jedi killed his son, despite the fact the Jedi had rescued him, and ordered that the Jedi responsible be put to death. As the Jedi arrived back on Tatooine to return the infant Hutt to its parent, Dooku and his forces engaged Jedi Skywalker and Padawan Tano, however they were driven off. Having forced Dooku to flee, Jedi Skywalker turned over the Huttlet to Jabba, who graciously granted the Republic forces safe passage through Hutt Space and the Arkanis sector."

[Selenial]

And I'm sure Jabba gave him the grand tour.

 

He was the leader of the CIS and most important man in the Galaxy.

 

He'd study up with spies and as much Intel as possible.

[Beniboybling]

He was the leader of the CIS and most important man in the Galaxy.

 

He'd study up with spies and as much Intel as possible.

Yeah but he doesn't have spies crawling out of his beard.

 

Its just a meeting, all he needs to know is where to park his solar sailer and how to get to the front door, dispatching spies to search every nook and cranny cause reasons would be major overkill as well as a major time waster.

[Selenial]

Yeah but he doesn't have spies crawling out of his beard.

 

Its just a meeting, all he needs to know is where to park his solar sailer and how to get to the front door, dispatching spies to search every nook and cranny cause reasons would be major overkill as well as a major time waster.

 

You do realise he'd be easily killed in there right?

 

All he'd want would be a basic layout, I'm not saying he knows of the passage, but the IA will.