Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Fist of the Empire vs the Confederacy

[Selenial]

 

No named figures.

[Aurbere]

 

Did he even have power on Tatooine?

[Canino]

No named figures.

 

I understand. But as this is Black Sun under Xizor, he would be a Vigo. Hence why Black Sun owned a kadijic, Besadii to be precise. Jabba's sworn rival. If Xizor owns the Hutt, then he owns the assets of said Hutt.

[Selenial]

Did he even have power on Tatooine?

 

Given that Jabba ruled supreme, and they hated each other... No?

[Canino]

Did he even have power on Tatooine?

No, I'm just pointing out that the CIC technically has Hutt power.

 

Not that that matters, however. Criminals in this galaxy seem to always fight against Sith, and their Empire's as well. While we have exceptions, of course, but everything will always have exceptions. The Smuggler's Alliance, The Rebellion, and the entirety of Nar Shaddaa (during the Battle of Nar Shaddaa) all show that crime bands together to fight Sith and Empires. That wouldn't change now.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Canino

[Selenial]

I understand. But as this is Black Sun under Xizor, he would be a Vigo. Hence why Black Sun owned a kadijic, Besadii to be precise. Jabba's sworn rival. If Xizor owns the Hutt, then he owns the assets of said Hutt.

 

Ohhh.

He didn't really have assets on Tatooine though did he?

 

My point was that you couldn't say Durga would sway support due to being a Hutt (Jabba's replacement) but if you meant power base, then indeed.

[Aurbere]

Given that Jabba ruled supreme, and they hated each other... No?

 

I'd like to say that question was rhetorical, but I hadn't looked Durga up until after I posted.

[Selenial]

No, I'm just pointing out that the CIC technically has Hutt power.

 

Not that that matters, however. Criminals in this galaxy seem to always fight against Sith, and their Empire's as well. While we have exceptions, of course, but everything will always have exceptions. The Smuggler's Alliance, The Rebellion, and the entirety of Nar Shaddaa (during the Battle of Nar Shaddaa) all show that crime bands together to fight Sith and Empires. That wouldn't change now.

 

Not really.

 

The underworld was split 50/50 in almost every "Empire Vs" war, because most people saw the Empire as a source of credits, despite whether the jobs were legal.

 

For example, Dengar, Durge, Boba, IG-88 etc.

[Aurbere]

No, I'm just pointing out that the CIC technically has Hutt power.

 

Not that that matters, however. Criminals in this galaxy seem to always fight against Sith, and their Empire's as well. While we have exceptions, of course, but everything will always have exceptions. The Smuggler's Alliance, The Rebellion, and the entirety of Nar Shaddaa (during the Battle of Nar Shaddaa) all show that crime bands together to fight Sith and Empires. That wouldn't change now.

 

Hutt power!

 

Ventress can go out and start bribing some folks. Those who refuse get the axe, or lightsabers in this case.

[Canino]

Ohhh.

He didn't really have assets on Tatooine though did he?

 

My point was that you couldn't say Durga would sway support due to being a Hutt (Jabba's replacement) but if you meant power base, then indeed.

 

Yes. I understand that Durga cannot be used to sway the public. And while he doesn't have assets on Tatooine to my knowledge, it is still a Hutt presence. But again, I don't think that will matter. All criminals, or the vast majority, will side with Xizor.

[Canino]

Not really.

 

The underworld was split 50/50 in almost every "Empire Vs" war, because most people saw the Empire as a source of credits, despite whether the jobs were legal.

 

For example, Dengar, Durge, Boba, IG-88 etc.

Those were the exceptions. Note that they were also the top tier, most expensive hunters as well. The common smuggler did not like the Empire. And while it's presence did allow for credits, it prosecuted and killed many of them.

 

For example, the Smuggler's Alliance, and The Rebellion. Hell, Boba worked for Xizor, although he didn't know it. Remeber the destruction of the Bounty Hunter's Guild? All Xizor.

 

And if Ventress decides to kill them, so what? Come to The Palace and live. Just like all the true criminals did anyway. We should also note that Xizor has experience here, and I can guarantee he has agents on Tatooine as well.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Canino

[Selenial]

Those were the exceptions. Note that they were also the top tier, most expensive hunters as well. The common smuggler did not like the Empire. And while it's presence did allow for credits, it prosecuted and killed many of them.

 

For example, the Smuggler's Alliance, and The Rebellion. Hell, Boba worked for Xizor, although he didn't know it. Remeber the destruction of the Bounty Hunter's Guild? All Xizor.

 

And if Ventress decides to kill them, so what? Come to The Palace and live. Just like all the true criminals did anyway. We should also note that Xizor has experience here, and I can guarantee he has agents on Tatooine as well.

Then take Swtor as a glorious example.

 

Also, if you're sheltering people from Ventress, they're not doing their job.... And entirely useless.

[Canino]

Shameless triple post, but I found something. If Aurbere gets his defenses, I get mine.

 

"Housing not only Jabba's sail barge the Khetanna, the hangar was home to the Bantha-II cargo skiffs that patrolled the grounds."

 

I think it is only logical I get the swoops and other vehicles. This was a major part of the Palace, and Jabba's business. If not, it doesn't matter. I have a path straight to the city. A hidden path.

 

"An underground roadway stemming from the hangar made a circuitous path from the palace to the city of Mos Eisley."

[Selenial]

Shameless triple post, but I found something. If Aurbere gets his defenses, I get mine.

 

"Housing not only Jabba's sail barge the Khetanna, the hangar was home to the Bantha-II cargo skiffs that patrolled the grounds."

 

I think it is only logical I get the swoops and other vehicles. This was a major part of the Palace, and Jabba's business. If not, it doesn't matter. I have a path straight to the city. A hidden path.

 

"An underground roadway stemming from the hangar made a circuitous path from the palace to the city of Mos Eisley."

For the path, if anyone will find that it'd be Imperial Intelligence.

 

Ventress now has a fantastic route to solo sneak right into the Palace.

 

Let's also note that Dooku and Ventress know the palace well.

[Canino]

Then take Swtor as a glorious example.

 

Also, if you're sheltering people from Ventress, they're not doing their job.... And entirely useless.

 

What, that mando's work for the Empire? Swtor shows it being 50/50. The time of Dooku and Xizor show it being crime vs. Empires.

 

The Smuggler's Alliance fought with Jedi against Thrawn.

Nar Shaddaa fought against the Empire invading (like they are doing now on Tatooine)

The Rebellion, being composed of civilians and criminals alike, fought against the Empire.

[Canino]

For the path, if anyone will find that it'd be Imperial Intelligence.

 

Ventress now has a fantastic route to solo sneak right into the Palace.

 

Let's also note that Dooku and Ventress know the palace well.

 

Well? They were in it for what, a day? And I doubt Jabba let them leave his sight. And if GE intelligence never found it, I highly doubt The Fist would.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Canino

[Warren-Stride]

Not really.

 

The underworld was split 50/50 in almost every "Empire Vs" war, because most people saw the Empire as a source of credits, despite whether the jobs were legal.

 

For example, Dengar, Durge, Boba, IG-88 etc.

 

I don't think a handful of bounty hunters are half of the underworld.

 

Something to note about bounty hunters: they aren't criminals. While individual bounty hunters may break the law and do things that make them criminals as individuals, bounty hunters as a whole are the exact opposite of criminals. They take bounties, sanctioned by a government, to bring actual criminals to justice. Obviously this can get twisted, like for example when a criminal organization puts a bounty on a politician's head. But, basically, bounty hunters are totally fine with working for governments, because the governments pay well and the targets are usually other criminals that bounty hunters have no moral qualms about eliminating. Hence why Mira was willing to work as a bounty hunter for the Hutts. She was taking down criminals, not becoming one.

 

The reason why that distinction is important is because while some bounty hunters may be criminals, very few criminals are bounty hunters. Most criminals are smugglers, gang members, drug dealers, slavers, gamblers, intel brokers, slicers, or spies. These people work against civilization. They make money BECAUSE what they do is illegal, not despite of it. If drugs were legal, drug runners would make the standard price for their drugs. But if they're illegal, the drug dealers can charge as much as they want, raising the price because it's rare.

 

The Empire is historically worse for criminals. For lots of reasons. The Empire is much better at quelling criminal actions, for example. They come down much harder on gangs and crime in general on their worlds. The Empire's politicians are also much, much harder to corrupt, making it more difficult for crime gangs to manipulate the government with bribes and threats. When the Republic is in power, criminals have a much easier time escaping the judicial system, avoiding being apprehended by authorities (through bribes or otherwise) and are generally better able to carry out their business, especially because the Republic is not nearly as aggressive about order as the Empire is.

 

So do the criminals want the Fist of the Empire to win? No. Their jobs become much harder, their chances of survival greatly diminish, and profits go down.

 

The reason this matters is because criminals are rarely individuals. They are most often parts of greater organizations. Even bounty hunters have hunting guilds. The person/people at the top of these organizations (the captain, the kingpin, the boss) want profit. And they use their underlings to make these profits. Fighting against the government (Fist of the Empire) that would get in the way of their profits isn't the kingpin's duty. It's their lackey's.

 

From the SWTOR Encyclopedia:

Certain personality types find crime lords and dashing outlaws especially irresistible. These men and women are attracted to powerful personalities and seek to be near them in spite of the obvious danger. Some underworld admirers clearly hope proximity will imbue them with a hint of the criminal's greatness. Others are simply too weak to escape the orbits of deadly abusers and remain trapped in damaging relationships. Regardless, many successful criminals maintain extended entourages of disposable "friends" who do their bidding, even if that means becoming a living shield when the blaster bolts fly.

 

Those are the type of people that criminals would have do the dirty work against organizations like the FotE. Kingpins wouldn't need to get their hands dirty, what else are minions for?

 

Why hasn't this happened before? Because what Empire ever only had 2,500 troops? Criminals aren't going to risk taking on the GALACTIC Empire. But an Empire who's only on one planet? They can take that on, no problem.

 

I'm not really sure what the purpose of this rant/wall of text was... but here it is.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Warren-Stride

[Selenial]

What, that mando's work for the Empire? Swtor shows it being 50/50. The time of Dooku and Xizor show it being crime vs. Empires.

 

The Smuggler's Alliance fought with Jedi against Thrawn.

Nar Shaddaa fought against the Empire invading (like they are doing now on Tatooine)

The Rebellion, being composed of civilians and criminals alike, fought against the Empire.

 

Did you see the Underworld all flocking to save Yavin?

Alderaan?

Endor?

 

Besides, the Underworld fought for Dooku during the Clone Wars, because he was not an empire yet, he allowed criminals to do what they wanted as long as it wasn't against him.

 

Most criminals don't care, those 3 are all special cases. Criminals aren't loyal, they're not patriotic, they fight for money and nothing else. Xizor can provide that, but what he can't provide is the promise of protection against an empire, and the only thing Criminals value more than credits is their lives.

[Selenial]

I don't think a handful of bounty hunters are half of the underworld.

 

I was referring to Swtor when I said 50/50....

 

And again, Dooku isn't the Empire, he used criminals all the time, rarely killed them, and payed them unbelievable amounts of money.

[Canino]

Did you see the Underworld all flocking to save Yavin?

Alderaan?

Endor?

 

Besides, the Underworld fought for Dooku during the Clone Wars, because he was not an empire yet, he allowed criminals to do what they wanted as long as it wasn't against him.

 

Most criminals don't care, those 3 are all special cases. Criminals aren't loyal, they're not patriotic, they fight for money and nothing else. Xizor can provide that, but what he can't provide is the promise of protection against an empire, and the only thing Criminals value more than credits is their lives.

 

Actually I did. Considering The Rebellion was part of the Underworld. Every single person in the Rebellion was a criminal, as they were committing high treason. So yeah, I did. And considering a decent portion of the Rebellion were criminals, smugglers, spies and more. Yes, I did see them protecting those planets.

 

And I seem to remember a certain pirate that fought against Dooku on more than one occasion. Sure, he had bounty hunters. But read Warren's post. Its beautiful

Edited August 12, 2014 by Canino

[Canino]

I was referring to Swtor when I said 50/50....

 

And again, Dooku isn't the Empire, he used criminals all the time, rarely killed them, and payed them unbelievable amounts of money.

 

Money he doesn't have. Let's not forget how stingy the Trdae Federation was. They didn't even buy the best versions of the army they were building for GALACTIC DOMINATION. If they were tight there, they will never pay for The Underworld.

 

And really, Dooku is the Empire. He can try to play the crime game, but he won't win. Xizor was the best crime lord in galactic history. He only fails when combating plot armored characters. He can't beat Luke, Vader or the rest of the cast because they need to be in ROTJ. He will not fail now.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Canino

[Aurbere]

I was referring to Swtor when I said 50/50....

 

And again, Dooku isn't the Empire, he used criminals all the time, rarely killed them, and payed them unbelievable amounts of money.

 

This is true. Pirates and mercenaries served in the Separatist military until the droid army was numerous enough.

[Warren-Stride]

This is true. Pirates and mercenaries served in the Separatist military until the droid army was numerous enough.

 

That's because the Republic was the government. So working against the government for credits is exactly what pirates and mercenaries do. In this case, Dooku is the government. And as Selenial said, criminals are not loyal.

[Aurbere]

Money he doesn't have. Let's not forget how stingy the Trdae Federation was. They didn't even buy the best versions of the army they were building for GALACTIC DOMINATION. If they were tight there, they will never pay for The Underworld.

 

And really, Dooku is the Empire. He can try to play the crime game, but he won't win. Xizor was the best crime lord in galactic history. He only fails when combating plot armored characters. He can't beat Luke, Vader or the rest of the cast because they need to be in ROTJ. He will not fail now.

 

Trade Federation =/= Separatists. And don't forget that this was because of Grievous' new style of warfare. They couldn't afford to produce the best droids in the numbers Grievous was using. Heck, the whole plan was to use mass numbers to spread Republic and Jedi forces thin across the galaxy.

 

And I refuse to debate plot armor. It's a stupid argument that makes no sense in this kind of context. No one can die because they need to survive until they die!

[Warren-Stride]

And I refuse to debate plot armor. It's a stupid argument that makes no sense in this kind of context. No one can die because they need to survive until they die!

 

I agree, plot armor is never a valid argument. Every character has plot armor. What's to stop Xizor from dying of sickness as a child, or in a speeder crash, or in a miscalculated hyperspace jump? Plot armor.