Aurbere Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 That is the beauty of the CIC's plan though, they do not NEED a great tactician. They have all done this strategy or versions of it before. They have experience doing it, and while yes Kilran is an epic commander, there is practically nothing he can do if he can not catch them. Think along the lines that he is a lumbering behemoth, and the CIC is a squad of men with guns. The behemoth will not go down easily, and can take many hits. If it catches its prey it wrecks it, but actually doing so proves quite difficult due to its slow speed. Actually, they do. The Rebel Alliance was struggling to do the same tactic you are suggesting until Jan Dodonna joined the cause. Without him, they couldn't do anything to the Empire. Same situation here. I have to HEAVILY disagree here. 10 point defense guns per gladiator is not a "plethora" At best, that is 180 point defense guns since they are not listed to be in the Invincible or the Harrowers. 10 is hardly enough to even cover themselves, let alone the other vessels. Add to the fact the sheer amount of missiles coming their way, and there is absolutely no way they are going to be able to simply shoot down all of the missiles. Even going at their fastest and luckiest pace of anti-missiles, they MIGHT shoot down say...1/10 of the missiles. They will still get pummeled, and it will hurt, a lot. Not to mention if the Fist fighters are already deployed, they will take heavy losses. Or if they try to rush the Broadsides they will be utterly decimated by the CIC fighters combined with the Crusader corvettes. As a veteran of Empire at War, I can comfortably say that 10 per ship is enough. The missiles fired by Broadsides are slow and easy to hit. Crusaders were able to destroy them before they got close, and Crusaders have half the point defense cannons. And don't give me that 'advanced point defense systems' shpeel. Wookieepedia sources Empire at War for that claim. Nothing in their design speaks 'advanced' since those cannons do exactly what point defense cannons do, the laser likely being cosmetic design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I thought you'd relish the opportunity. It's just the same old thing every time my factions come into play. It gets tiring having to respond to several posters at once, all of whom have made long counter responses. Still, I kinda have to, don't I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 10, 2014 Author Share Posted August 10, 2014 It's just the same old thing every time my factions come into play. It gets tiring having to respond to several posters at once, all of whom have made long counter responses. Still, I kinda have to, don't I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Game mechanics, we all know it. Lets actually deal with the facts. Kilran is a squishy human male who has clearly some skills, but he is not an elite assassin who served under one of the most powerful men in the galaxy. Guri > Kilran. This goes without saying. Can Kilran perhaps lure Guri into a trap? Quite possibly, but that would involve him detecting her. His heroic stand against a Jedi boarding party earned him his scars. After the war ended, he was granted the honorary title Grand Moff in recognition of his contributions.-Wookieepedia, sourced the Old Republic holonet An Luke who just learned Force speed smacked Guri down. Kilran can manage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canino Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 -Wookieepedia, sourced the Old Republic holonet An Luke who just learned Force speed smacked Guri down. Kilran can manage. Smacked her down? She was about to kill him when he used the Force to get his saber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 10, 2014 Author Share Posted August 10, 2014 -Wookieepedia, sourced the Old Republic holonet An Luke who just learned Force speed smacked Guri down. Kilran can manage.A vague statement that says nothing about his powers. For all we know that "heroic stand" could have amounted to Kilran charging his opponent and getting slapped down before someone more capable comes in a cleans up. It cannot be used as a precedent to say Kilran > Guri. I can't even begin to fathom how your comparing Luke to Kilran... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I thought final arguments are just that: final. Oh well, back to the debate I guess. Of course I have to debate three people at once. It seems that a certain someone has forgotten that he's meant to be arbitrating (neutral) in this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canino Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Beni, when are you calling this? No rush, just wondering. I'm anxious to move onto the ground portion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 A vague statement that says nothing about his powers. For all we know that "heroic stand" could have amounted to Kilran charging his opponent and getting slapped down before someone more capable comes in a cleans up. It cannot be used as a precedent to say Kilran > Guri. I can't even begin to fathom how your comparing Luke to Kilran... He quite obviously won though. "Heroic" =\= getting one shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Smacked her down? She was about to kill him when he used the Force to get his saber. When he just learned Force Speed. A fully trained Jedi would do much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 10, 2014 Author Share Posted August 10, 2014 (edited) It seems that a certain someone has forgotten that he's meant to be arbitrating (neutral) in this.On the contrary, my role is to make an eventual decision, and evaluate the merits of the points being made. I am giving you an advantage by allowing you to counter my decisions in advance before they are finalized. I suggest you make use of this favour. Unless you'd of course prefer I remain mute and simply dismiss your arguments in secret. I prefer to be more honest. Edited August 10, 2014 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 On the contrary, my role is to make an eventual decision, and evaluate the merits of the points being made. I am giving you an advantage by allowing you to counter my decisions in advance before they are finalized. I suggest you make use of this favour. Unless you'd of course prefer I remain mute and simply dismiss your arguments in secret. I prefer to be more honest. It's not that. Your own briefing said to not include our own arguments unless the debate was stale, and to counter each side as much as you counter the other... And yet you seem emotionally invested in Canino's faction. Just an observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 10, 2014 Author Share Posted August 10, 2014 He quite obviously won though. "Heroic" =\= getting one shot.Heroic is a term often favoured by Imperial propogandists and he won by means unknown. I find it highly unlikely he just took them all down by himself. Who is he Chuck Norris? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 A vague statement that says nothing about his powers. For all we know that "heroic stand" could have amounted to Kilran charging his opponent and getting slapped down before someone more capable comes in a cleans up. It cannot be used as a precedent to say Kilran > Guri. I can't even begin to fathom how your comparing Luke to Kilran... He obviously won, though. I'm not comparing Luke to Kilran. I'm saying that Luke just learned Force Speed, and a full trained Jedi would manage better. Kilran apparently defeated a Jedi strike team. To quote Legend, 'do the math' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 A nice analysis, Aurbere. However, I do have to rip it apart The day someone is able to 'rip apart' my arguments, is the day I officially retire. Tactician I agree that Kilran is going to dominate this category. However, Xizor would realize this. Using intel via Black Sun, he could easily determine that he is leading the fleet and prepare a trap. This, I believe, would be why Guri enters the battle. To assassinate Kilran first and foremost, and then to destroy capital ships. This leads me to boarding parties. Or Imperial Intelligence's counter intelligence leaves Black Sun as blind as the SIS. Boarding Parties While Kilran is used to boarding parties, you overlook his fatal flaw- pride. He is a proud man, having never been defeated in battle. Hell, he believed himself capable of defeating a Jedi strike team, and look where that landed him. Six feet under. He even ignored direct order by Malgus to do this. Not simply a Sith. Malgus. And now we have him dealing with pirates. The scum of the galaxy, in his eyes. He would not add extra protection. He would assume he fleet of superior Sith could defeat them. No. And if an assassin boarded he would confront them head on. And would perish at Guri's hand. Kilran will die because he's prideful, 'cuz pirates? Why does that kind of reason keep coming up? Kilran is a proud man, but he isn't stupid. He's cautious, he prepares traps, he knows what he's doing. Just because these guys are pirates doesn't mean he's going to take a nap. Hit and Run Tactics You bring up a good point about how slow the Broadsides are. However, in retreat they will be covered by in the incoming fighters and discord missiles. And while the Rihkxyrk is slow, the V-wing is not. Both are heavy hitting, and with discord missiles (flying extremely fast, tracking your ships and exploding in a cloud of buzz droids) they can meet your fighters head on. Discord missiles will cause havoc for your faster fighters, especially as they love swarm tactics. If space is full of buzz droids, you can't do much maneuvering. That will allow plenty of time for the Broadsides to retreat and resume firing. With corvettes using advanced point defense turrets to protect them from missiles and fighters, they will move to range and unleash again. Will it kill fighters? Sure. But again, as Xizor says ,""If you cannot afford to lose, you should not play the game." This all culminating in boarding parties capturing your vessels and use them to flank your ships. Pirates are notorious for capturing ships. They would utilize this now for maximum effect. And once Kilran is dead, the Fist will be crippled.[/color] So the CIC doesn't care about its fighters, and will fire with them in the line of fire anyway? That's a morale boost... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Heroic is a term often favoured by Imperial propogandists and he won by means unknown. I find it highly unlikely he just took them all down by himself. Who is he Chuck Norris? Source quotes are propaganda now? Next thing you know, the "Master of the Dark Side" quote is really a recruitment drive to join Palpatine's inquisitorious! Conspiracy! Conspiracy I say! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 10, 2014 Author Share Posted August 10, 2014 He obviously won, though. I'm not comparing Luke to Kilran. I'm saying that Luke just learned Force Speed, and a full trained Jedi would manage better. Kilran apparently defeated a Jedi strike team. To quote Legend, 'do the math'Again, by unknown means. The conclusion that he defeated them by himself being highly unlikely and riddled with inconsistencies and falsehoods. Legend would indeed use this to tout Kilran as some kind of demi-god. But I prefer to apply a little bit of logic. Why Kilran would choose to engage Guri when he has Sith protectors at his disposal I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 10, 2014 Author Share Posted August 10, 2014 It's not that. Your own briefing said to not include our own arguments unless the debate was stale, and to counter each side as much as you counter the other... And yet you seem emotionally invested in Canino's faction. Just an observation.Much to learn, you still have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Much to learn, you still have. Unless you're trying to say that the 4 posts I've made, and Aurbere's phenomenal historian skills were enough to win this fleet battle, I'll take this as a concession that I'm right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Again, by unknown means. The conclusion that he defeated them by himself being highly unlikely and riddled with inconsistencies and falsehoods. Legend would indeed use this to tout Kilran as some kind of demi-god. But I prefer to apply a little bit of logic. Why Kilran would choose to engage Guri when he has Sith protectors at his disposal I don't know. Well that's the thing. He isn't going to charge in guns ablazing. He's going to set traps and prepare for his foes. It's out of character if he doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 10, 2014 Author Share Posted August 10, 2014 Source quotes are propaganda now? Next thing you know, the "Master of the Dark Side" quote is really a recruitment drive to join Palpatine's inquisitorious! Conspiracy! Conspiracy I say! The word "heroic" is far more vague, hyperbolic and intepretable than "master" wouldn't you say? I personally do not ascribe to the belief that a "heroic stands" means "Kilran totally pwned a squad of Jedi by himself." He's not even Force Sensitive, clearly he had backup. And probably a lot of it. But the guy got injured, and he still took on a bunch of Jedi where most commanders would flee for their lives. Definitely heroic in the eyes of an Imperial. Heck it doesn't even imply victories, heroic stands often end badly. Kilran may have merely escaped with his life. Again, the point I'm trying to make here is that accolades only go so far, and can't be used to ignore the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 While good points, I feel there are some issues that need to be addressed here: 1. The droids we are dealing with are all very difficult to kill with anything short of heavy weaponry and or Force powers. Droid commandos slaughter infantry in small numbers, and B3s and Droidekas are totally impervious to small arms fire. The point is here that the Imperial marines are going to find themselves useless fodder. Only the heavy droids are going to be able to do much damage, and they are in short supply. Cunning is going to have to employed to trap and destroy these powerful models, cunning that Kilran possesses but I can't say the same for the rest of the fleet. They'll opt for the conventional, and the conventional will fail. 2. As I said an advantage in space is an advantage on the ground. I can see the Confederacy dedicating a possible 20% of their force to these boarding parties, and considering the resilience of this droids they may get some back. Also remember, the Confederacy has a very large factory producing a small amount of troops. Costs are not an issue in this case so they can afford to put the entire factory to work on producing these droids. To provide some perspective, we can estimate that it the factories on Geonosis could produce 4 droidekas a day (based on no. of droid present at the Battle of Geonosis) and that was when producing billions of B1s as well. Simply put, I don't think boarding parties as a tactic can be so easily dismissed. 1. I agree that the droids are tough to beat. That's why I love Separatist droids. They're awesome. However, we look over one crucial factor: Dooku. Yes, Dooku knows the CIC's droids and he knows how they work. His knowledge will be a boon to the Fist's ability to deal with the droids. 2. OK, fair point. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm dismissing boarding parties, because I'm not. They'll obviously happen. I, however, believe that the CIC will be careful in what they send. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 10, 2014 Author Share Posted August 10, 2014 Unless you're trying to say that the 4 posts I've made, and Aurbere's phenomenal historian skills were enough to win this fleet battle, I'll take this as a concession that I'm right.Lawls, you're joking right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 10, 2014 Author Share Posted August 10, 2014 Well that's the thing. He isn't going to charge in guns ablazing. He's going to set traps and prepare for his foes. It's out of character if he doesn't.I agree, and I believe it is what we should be focusing on. But the fact of the matter is, if Guri manages to bypass these traps, Kilran is dead, plain and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Lawls, you're joking right? I need a whistles innocently smiley face... But nope. My job is to question your silly antics, you know this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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