Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Fist of the Empire vs the Confederacy

[Selenial]

Silenceo, you need to look at the bigger picture.

 

You can't just say "The Fists commander doesn't mean anything cause dis tactic".... You have to think why this tactic wasn't the galactic standard.

 

Why didn't the Empire fill fleets with Broadsides? Or solely with Broadsides? They were weak when hit, and you can only survive at range for so long.

 

There is nothing stopping a Fury just blitzing in with a fighter escort and taking out a broadside. They were pathetic, small, unarmored and terribly shielded, the Fury is armed to the teeth.

 

And as soon as the fighters reach the broadside it's pretty much game over, they get in the way of missiles and can shoot any non diamond boron down...

 

The issue here is, with a commander you can counter or salvage this. Here it's a bunch of pirates fighting for control and doing their own thing because "they're better than the others" which will just spread the discord.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Selenial

[Canino]

~snip~

 

A nice analysis, Aurbere. However, I do have to rip it apart

 

Tactician

 

I agree that Kilran is going to dominate this category. However, Xizor would realize this. Using intel via Black Sun, he could easily determine that he is leading the fleet and prepare a trap. This, I believe, would be why Guri enters the battle. To assassinate Kilran first and foremost, and then to destroy capital ships.

 

This leads me to boarding parties.

 

Boarding Parties

 

While Kilran is used to boarding parties, you overlook his fatal flaw- pride.

 

He is a proud man, having never been defeated in battle. Hell, he believed himself capable of defeating a Jedi strike team, and look where that landed him. Six feet under. He even ignored direct order by Malgus to do this. Not simply a Sith. Malgus. And now we have him dealing with pirates. The scum of the galaxy, in his eyes. He would not add extra protection. He would assume he fleet of superior Sith could defeat them.

 

No. And if an assassin boarded he would confront them head on. And would perish at Guri's hand.

 

Hit and Run Tactics

 

You bring up a good point about how slow the Broadsides are. However, in retreat they will be covered by in the incoming fighters and discord missiles. And while the Rihkxyrk is slow, the V-wing is not. Both are heavy hitting, and with discord missiles (flying extremely fast, tracking your ships and exploding in a cloud of buzz droids) they can meet your fighters head on. Discord missiles will cause havoc for your faster fighters, especially as they love swarm tactics. If space is full of buzz droids, you can't do much maneuvering.

 

That will allow plenty of time for the Broadsides to retreat and resume firing. With corvettes using advanced point defense turrets to protect them from missiles and fighters, they will move to range and unleash again. Will it kill fighters? Sure. But again, as Xizor says ,""If you cannot afford to lose, you should not play the game."

 

This all culminating in boarding parties capturing your vessels and use them to flank your ships. Pirates are notorious for capturing ships. They would utilize this now for maximum effect. And once Kilran is dead, the Fist will be crippled.

[Silenceo]

Silenceo, you need to look at the bigger picture.

 

You can't just say "The Fists commander doesn't mean anything cause dis tactic".... You have to think why this tactic wasn't the galactic standard.

 

Why didn't the Empire fill fleets with Broadsides? Or solely with Broadsides? They were weak when hit, and you can only survive at range for so long.

 

There is nothing stopping a Fury just blitzing in with a fighter escort and taking out a broadside. They were pathetic, small, unarmored and terribly shielded, the Fury is armed to the teeth.

 

And as soon as the fighters reach the broadside it's pretty much game over, they get in the way of missiles and can shoot any non diamond boron down...

 

The issue here is, with a commander you can counter or salvage this. Here it's a bunch of pirates fighting for control and doing their own thing because "they're better than the others" which will just spread the discord.

 

In a bigger picture conventional forces would have an interdictor or more missile defenses which would force this tactic to indeed be ineffective. Most fleets had ways to counter such tactics, but the Fist does not possess those.

 

As for the fighter swarm reaching the CIC fleet, that will not work simply due to the fact that the CIC would have its fighters all sitting there waiting for one, and second, there are 36 Crusader class corvettes waiting as well. Furys are good, but they are not invincible. Or if a large enough group of Fist fighters were to make a run for the CIC lines, the broad sides could, you know, redirect firepower for a few seconds to put missiles in their path with large AoE...

 

Though the Empire very well could have done this tactic effectively. Though, a 500 length cruiser with only missiles isn't NEARLY as intimidating as an Imperial Class star destroyer.

[Canino]

Aurbere, you also bring up a Fury destroying the Stinger and the Virago. They can try. The Stinger was only slightly slower than an Interceptor. And with twin ion cannons and turbolasors, you can have fun. Not to mention proton missiles launched fro the rear. Not to mention it will not likely be in battle for long. Enter, kill Kilran, leave.

 

The Virago? It was basically a fast gun platform. It could also rival an Interceptor in speed and maneuverability. Add to it discord missiles and its targeting system, nothing will get close to it.

[Canino]

Sel, you bring up a good about diamond boron missiles. They are slow. Discord missiles, on the other hand are not. In fast, they are noted as being quite a bit faster than fighters, capital ships, and point defense turrets. Add to that its tracking system and buzz droids and they will be able to attack the Fist's fighters and capital ships quite effectively.

 

And the Fist firing missiles? Not going to work. Not only do my corvette's have an advanced point defense system, the V-wing has flak guns, and the boarding craft are heavily armored. Missiles likely won't reach the Broadsides.

[Beniboybling]

I have but one question, how long will it take to set up these hit and run attacks? I assume they will be attacking from different angles in an attempt to outmaneuver there point defense cannons, so I can only assume they'll be bouncing around the system in hyperspace to achieve this. So how long exactly is this tactic going to take between bouts?

 

And if it is very long, is it really viable?

[Canino]

I have but one question, how long will it take to set up these hit and run attacks? I assume they will be attacking from different angles in an attempt to outmaneuver there point defense cannons, so I can only assume they'll be bouncing around the system in hyperspace to achieve this. So how long exactly is this tactic going to take between bouts?

 

And if it is very long, is it really viable?

 

I don't believe it would take an overly long time. Really, it only needs to last until one ship is captured and Kilran is dead. And considering Kilran's pride, I doubt either of those things will take long. Guri+commando droids=dead Kilran.

[Beniboybling]

I don't believe it would take an overly long time. Really, it only needs to last until one ship is captured and Kilran is dead. And considering Kilran's pride, I doubt either of those things will take long. Guri+commando droids=dead Kilran.

"Kilran's pride" is being overblown here. Kilran only went to the front as a last resort, he is the final boss, the last line of defence. Revan's prison is like right there so as a man of talent and not afraid of getting his hands dirty, Kilran thinks he better sort this problem out once and for all.

 

But not before allowing the strike team to cut a bloody swathe through all his minions.

 

So yeah, Kilran will only engage if Guri reaches the bridge. This is merely a plus for Kilran i.e. he can defend himself.

 

That said, I think my money would be on Guri. If she manages to reach the bridge.

[Selenial]

"Kilran's pride" is being overblown here. Kilran only went to the front as a last resort, he is the final boss, the last line of defence. Revan's prison is like right there so as a man of talent and not afraid of getting his hands dirty, Kilran thinks he better sort this problem out once and for all.

 

But not before allowing the strike team to cut a bloody swathe through all his minions.

 

So yeah, Kilran will only engage if Guri reaches the bridge. This is merely a plus for Kilran i.e. he can defend himself.

 

That said, I think my money would be on Guri. If she manages to reach the bridge.

 

Kilran fought of the Strike Team for quite some time.

 

Guri's not that good...

[Beniboybling]

Kilran fought of the Strike Team for quite some time.

 

Guri's not that good...

Game mechanics, we all know it.

 

Lets actually deal with the facts. Kilran is a squishy human male who has clearly some skills, but he is not an elite assassin who served under one of the most powerful men in the galaxy. Guri > Kilran. This goes without saying.

 

Can Kilran perhaps lure Guri into a trap? Quite possibly, but that would involve him detecting her.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Canino]

"Kilran's pride" is being overblown here. Kilran only went to the front as a last resort, he is the final boss, the last line of defence. Revan's prison is like right there so as a man of talent and not afraid of getting his hands dirty, Kilran thinks he better sort this problem out once and for all.

 

But not before allowing the strike team to cut a bloody swathe through all his minions.

 

So yeah, Kilran will only engage if Guri reaches the bridge. This is merely a plus for Kilran i.e. he can defend himself.

 

That said, I think my money would be on Guri. If she manages to reach the bridge.

 

But is it? He is a cultured man who looked down on anyone who wasn't an elite. He is combating an army of what he believe are scum- pirates, smugglers, common criminals. He will not believe they could ever defeat the might of the Empire. He has Sith. What could ever beat Sith?

 

I doubt he would tell his forces to worry about boarding parties. And that's why Guri and commando droids will reach him. And why other boarding parties will be effective.

[Selenial]

Game mechanics, we all know it.

 

Lets actually deal with the facts. Kilran is a squishy human male who has clearly some skills, but he is not an elite assassin who served under one of the most powerful men in the galaxy. Guri > Kilran. This goes without saying.

 

Can Kilran perhaps lure Guri into a trap? Quite possibly, but that would involve him detecting her.

 

Not really.

 

What we learned from that was that Kilran's an expert Sniper and Marksman, but can't hold off in Melee. And he's also happy to sacrifice troops to slow down the enemy to better pick them off.

[Selenial]

But is it? He is a cultured man who looked down on anyone who wasn't an elite. He is combating an army of what he believe are scum- pirates, smugglers, common criminals. He will not believe they could ever defeat the might of the Empire. He has Sith. What could ever beat Sith?

 

I doubt he would tell his forces to worry about boarding parties. And that's why Guri and commando droids will reach him. And why other boarding parties will be effective.

 

So basically, Kilran's sending his Marines on a coffee break for no other reason than that they're pirates?

 

Isn't the entire point of pirates to board your ship?

[Canino]

Not really.

 

What we learned from that was that Kilran's an expert Sniper and Marksman, but can't hold off in Melee. And he's also happy to sacrifice troops to slow down the enemy to better pick them off.

 

Guri is by far the better combatant of the two. The only reason she lost to Luke was because he used the Force. At a distant, she is an expert marksman. Getting in close, she is a masterful martial artist. And metal. If he fights her closer, she will destroy him.

[Canino]

So basically, Kilran's sending his Marines on a coffee break for no other reason than that they're pirates?

 

Isn't the entire point of pirates to board your ship?

 

And with Sith on board what threat do pirates pose?

[Beniboybling]

Boarding Parties:

 

I'm probably going to sound like a broken record at this point, but these points need to be put forth.

 

During the Great War and Cold War, boarding parties were used routinely during space combat. Kilran also used boarding parties and had experience dealing with boarding parties. He will likely prepare defenses against boarders and know how to deal with a situation such as that. There is also a matter of the Sith Marines, who are likely highly skilled fighters, if the quality of the Sith Soldiers is any indication. They will likely be able to repel boarders with some guidance by Kilran.

 

There is also the complicated task of getting the transports through the fighting and into the Fist's ships. As I mentioned before, the assumed numerical superiority of the Fist's fighters should make it easy to target and destroy most enemy transports before they reach their destination.

 

Finally, I do not believe that Xizor will dedicate a large force to boarding parties. As I mentioned before, the droid units he has are not cheap and not easy to make. Yes, Xizor has money covered, but money does not make droids build faster. One of the early TCW commentaries, I believe, stated that the Separatists used the dim-witted battle droids because they were cheaper and easier to make, and that's why you don't see a ton of Commando Droids. The case applies here as well. Xizor can pay, but he can't make them any faster, especially with only one factory world.

 

Further, his forces are at a severe disadvantage on the ground. He can't dedicate many units to boarding craft, lest the Fist gain even more advantages in the ground battle.

While good points, I feel there are some issues that need to be addressed here:

 

1. The droids we are dealing with are all very difficult to kill with anything short of heavy weaponry and or Force powers. Droid commandos slaughter infantry in small numbers, and B3s and Droidekas are totally impervious to small arms fire. The point is here that the Imperial marines are going to find themselves useless fodder.

 

Only the heavy droids are going to be able to do much damage, and they are in short supply.

 

Cunning is going to have to employed to trap and destroy these powerful models, cunning that Kilran possesses but I can't say the same for the rest of the fleet. They'll opt for the conventional, and the conventional will fail.

 

2. As I said an advantage in space is an advantage on the ground. I can see the Confederacy dedicating a possible 20% of their force to these boarding parties, and considering the resilience of this droids they may get some back.

 

Also remember, the Confederacy has a very large factory producing a small amount of troops. Costs are not an issue in this case so they can afford to put the entire factory to work on producing these droids.

 

To provide some perspective, we can estimate that it the factories on Geonosis could produce 4 droidekas a day (based on no. of droid present at the Battle of Geonosis) and that was when producing billions of B1s as well.

 

Simply put, I don't think boarding parties as a tactic can be so easily dismissed.

[Beniboybling]

Hit-and-Run:

 

As has been mentioned before, the Confederacy fleet will likely opt for hit-and-run strategies. These strategies are effective, of course. However, they have only been truly effective because the enemy doesn't know where you are striking from. However, per the rules of the Kaggath (specifically rule #96) the Confederacy can only access worlds it has under its control. This leaves them with Nar Shaddaa and Hypori. Nar Shaddaa is too far, which means that their likely place of retreat is Hypori. Using this obvious knowledge, Kilran can quickly pursue the Confederacy fleet to Hypori upon its retreat and attack the unsuspecting pirates, destroying them before they can mount a defense or retreat.

Lawls, that doesn't prevent them from using hyperlanes. They can just use a hyperlane to jump into space, navigate around a bit, and then turn about and jump back to Tatooine. Edited August 10, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

So basically, Kilran's sending his Marines on a coffee break for no other reason than that they're pirates?

 

Isn't the entire point of pirates to board your ship?

I think the point being made is that Kilran will underestimate his opponents, the last thing he will expect from a band of pirates is some of the most lethal and deadly battle droids in the galaxy, and may fail to employ a proper strategy in time. Its a valid argument, but Canino is in fact right. With the Sith on board what threat to the pirates pose. Edited August 10, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

Guri is by far the better combatant of the two. The only reason she lost to Luke was because he used the Force. At a distant, she is an expert marksman. Getting in close, she is a masterful martial artist. And metal. If he fights her closer, she will destroy him.

 

You do realise those ships had crews of thousands, and Aurbere has 50 Sith... Right?

[Selenial]

I think the point being made is that Kilran will underestimate his opponents, the last thing he will expect from a band of pirates is some of the most lethal and deadly battle droids in the galaxy, and may fail to employ a proper strategy in time. Its a valid argument, but Canino is in fact right. With the Sith on board what threat to the pirates pose.

 

But he'd still expect boarding parties.

 

Kilran isn't stupid There's no reason to only commit enough troops to repel boring pirates, he has no idea what kind of troops the CIC has, and he loses nothing by keeping all Marines at battle stations.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Selenial

[Aurbere]

I thought final arguments are just that: final. Oh well, back to the debate I guess. Of course I have to debate three people at once.

[Canino]

I thought final arguments are just that: final. Oh well, back to the debate I guess. Of course I have to debate three people at once.

You can, although I'm not going to post anything until Beni posts the decision. Those posts were in essence my final post.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Canino

[Beniboybling]

You do realise those ships had crews of thousands, and Aurbere has 50 Sith... Right?

Bear in mind we are dealing with a fleet of 38 ships here, and that the "crew" are unarmed.

 

So I'm not sure I see the point here.

[Beniboybling]

But he'd still expect boarding parties.

 

Kilran isn't stupid There's no reason to only commit enough troops to repel boring pirates, he has no idea what kind of troops the CIC has, and he loses nothing by keeping all Marines at battle stations.

Yeah that's not my point.

 

My point is that conventional tactics will fail against boarding parties of this caliber, and that if Kilran isn't expecting anything special he will use conventional tactics and may fail to adapt in time.

[Beniboybling]

I thought final arguments are just that: final. Oh well, back to the debate I guess. Of course I have to debate three people at once.

I thought you'd relish the opportunity.