Simple buff suggestion for Ion Missile/Mine: make them damage both shield arcs

[Nemarus]

If the subject isn't clear enough, the suggestion is this: when an Ion Mine or Ion Missile hits, it deals its damage to both shield arcs.

 

Now I'm not saying this is the only buff needed to bring either of these into balance (ex: Ion Missile reload needs to be reduced no matter what), but I do think it would be a strong buff, especially if these weapons are meant to be team/assist/utility weapons. Sure, hitting both arcs doesn't reliably help the person who shot the mine/missile get a kill, but it greatly increases the chance the target will get killed by teammates.

 

In the case of Ion Missile, it also increases the chance that the missile provides a benefit, even if you are already in laser range and shooting one side of the target--the Ion Missile lets you deal shield damage to the target's other side as well.

 

Best of all, it just gives these two weapons a unique capability and flavor. It gives them a reason to exist.

 

Now some might be asking: if these two Ion Weapons get to affect both arcs, why shouldn't Ion Cannons and Ion Railgun?

 

Well, for balance reasons, obviously And as for lore reasons, Ion Missile and Ion Mine are both explosives, so it makes sense that their explosion of ion energy could affect both sides of a ship, whereas Cannon and Railgun are each projectiles which obviously strike one side or the other.

[Altheran]

Well, we could imagine the rail be strong enough so that the impact propagates on the entire shields. (And by the way, they made it explode, so at this point it's not shocking anymore)

 

At the same time, Ion cannons are definitely out for this.

(Bleedthrough debuff(s) as shots darted the shields, maybe ?)

 

I'm all for this by the way, damaging both shield, (or 50% on the other shield, depending on how it would affect balance) would be welcomed, as it would partly reduce the frustration when someone else suddenly kill the shield arc just before you...

 

...and maybe it would end being healthier mechanic than things like drains or AoE, which IMO are rather befitting EMP and alikes than anything else, and are rather dangerous balance wise when the CD are low or inexistant like some of the Ion weapons.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Altheran

[Verain]

That's a pretty wild buff. Ion missile in particular, as it actually does damage.

 

 

In fact, if we had THAT buff, I don't think these two components would need further buffs, not even reload time.

 

 

Well, I like that idea a lot. Man, especially for that missile.

[Verain]

Oh, a as a note- ion *things* are not good to compare. Ion railgun is totally unrelated to ion missile has nothing to do with ion mine is not related to ion cannon. These weapons all have such special cases already that there's clearly no tying synergy between them, except that they all deal reduced damage to hull (the reduction amount varies) and they all start with "ion".

 

 

Ion missile needs a buff (this buff seems pretty wild tbh- probably too good by a dash), ion mine needs a massive buff, ion railgun is within the "fine" bubble after four consecutive nerfs, ion cannon is hard to call, but seems undertuned.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Verain

[Nemarus]

Oh, a as a note- ion *things* are not good to compare. Ion railgun is totally unrelated to ion missile has nothing to do with ion mine is not related to ion cannon. These weapons all have such special cases already that there's clearly no tying synergy between them, except that they all deal reduced damage to hull (the reduction amount varies) and they all start with "ion".

 

 

Ion missile needs a buff (this buff seems pretty wild tbh- probably too good by a dash), ion mine needs a massive buff, ion railgun is within the "fine" bubble after four consecutive nerfs, ion cannon is hard to call, but seems undertuned.

 

Hmm. Is it too wild? I guess you have to consider the opportunity cost of taking it.

 

On a T3 Scout or Strike, the opportunity cost is pretty much that you're not taking Thermite Torpedoes. Coincidentally, Thermite Torpedoes is already mainly used for its shield bleedthrough debuff--which affects both arcs and makes it easier for the shooter and teammates to kill a heavily shielded (or CP'd) target.

 

Of course, Thermite Torpedo is pretty much only reliably useful against Bombers from range. Whereas ion Missile could be employed against Strikes, Gunships and Scouts. Indeed, on a coordinated team, just a single ship lobbing Ion Missiles could be very effective.

 

On a T2 Strike, the opportunity cost is not having both Clusters and Concussions. I don't think that's much of an opportunity cost, especially since this new buffed Ion Missile + Cluster Missile would be pretty solid.

 

So maybe the buff, given Ion Missile's current stats, is a bit OP. Ways you could make it less wild:

 

1) Reduce shield damage of Ion Missile

 

OR

 

2) As Altheran suggested, make the far-arc only take half damage

 

Personally I like #1. Lower shield damage to maybe 1300 or so, but have it affect both arcs equally.

[Verain]

Well, if they go to implement they would have to handle the hull damage case too. I don't get the impression you want any extra hull damage out of the missile, but if it hits from both directions and the arcs are weak, you are basically doubling the hull damage too.

 

So you could implement in a lot of ways. You could:

> Reduce the damage done to hull by another factor of two. Reduce the damage by about 20%, and it applies to both.

> Handle the "off arc" hit entirely separately, such that it can NEVER deal hull damage. Have it be half of the shield damage done to the main arc.

>The missile just hits the stronger shield arc always, and then does some shield damage to the second arc.

> Pretty much anything similar to these two concepts.

 

 

 

I don't think you'd need to reduce the damage much to make it work as an "enveloping" missile, with equal damage to both sides, and that seems the coolest, but a lot of other things would work. This missile's number one frustration is shooting it just as you eliminate a shield. The target takes the trivial hull hit for nothing, and then a different shield arc is presented. Time wasted: all!

 

 

Also note that this missile has a mysterious nerf on the PTR, with the bottom left talent having the snare duration halved. That's probably the result of an incomplete build being pushed, or we're seeing them mess around, but it's still a little bit odd.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Verain

[Nemarus]

Well, if they go to implement they would have to handle the hull damage case too. I don't get the impression you want any extra hull damage out of the missile, but if it hits from both directions and the arcs are weak, you are basically doubling the hull damage too.

 

So you could implement in a lot of ways. You could:

> Reduce the damage done to hull by another factor of two. Reduce the damage by about 20%, and it applies to both.

> Handle the "off arc" hit entirely separately, such that it can NEVER deal hull damage. Have it be half of the shield damage done to the main arc.

>The missile just hits the stronger shield arc always, and then does some shield damage to the second arc.

> Pretty much anything similar to these two concepts.

 

 

 

I don't think you'd need to reduce the damage much to make it work as an "enveloping" missile, with equal damage to both sides, and that seems the coolest, but a lot of other things would work. This missile's number one frustration is shooting it just as you eliminate a shield. The target takes the trivial hull hit for nothing, and then a different shield arc is presented. Time wasted: all!

 

 

Also note that this missile has a mysterious nerf on the PTR, with the bottom left talent having the snare duration halved. That's probably the result of an incomplete build being pushed, or we're seeing them mess around, but it's still a little bit odd.

 

Yeah I saw the mining XML. At a glance, it looked like they were updating tooltips for all debuff durations, such that the tooltip used a variable instead of a hard coded number. But then for Ion Missile, they kept the hard coded number but reduced it. Seems odd indeed.

[Altheran]

> Handle the "off arc" hit entirely separately, such that it can NEVER deal hull damage. Have it be half of the shield damage done to the main arc.

 

I personally prefer this approach.

[Nemarus]

I personally prefer this approach.

 

Yeah, I'd be cool with that.

 

Or you could just make this missile (and the mine) a different animal. Just have it have special tooltip damage that says, "Deals 1500 damage to shields in both arcs." And that's the end of it.

 

If there aren't 1500 shields left on an arc, oh well. You massively lower the target's shields, drain it of energy, and maybe put a snare on it. That's all going to leave it quite vulnerable to plenty of other potential sources of hull damage.

[Caernos]

Let me preface by saying I'm not an expert on game theory or the meta but I did have a question that I was hoping for an honest answer. And I realize that it might have come up in some other long forgotten thread but I'm hoping people will still be kind enough to answer.

 

Why not make Ion an AOE missile like EMP? Reduce the damage or something, or make it's aoe like a railguns where it just arcs to the three nearest hostiles for reduced damage (I think that's how it works, I don't fly a T1 gunship, I just get shot by them). I wish there were more AOE missiles, which I assume would be difficult to balance, but I feel like Ion wouldn't get too OP if it was turned into some kind of AOE, especially if its blast radius observed LOS so ships could still be protected from it. So why hasn't that idea been thrust forward before?

[Nemarus]

Let me preface by saying I'm not an expert on game theory or the meta but I did have a question that I was hoping for an honest answer. And I realize that it might have come up in some other long forgotten thread but I'm hoping people will still be kind enough to answer.

 

Why not make Ion an AOE missile like EMP? Reduce the damage or something, or make it's aoe like a railguns where it just arcs to the three nearest hostiles for reduced damage (I think that's how it works, I don't fly a T1 gunship, I just get shot by them). I wish there were more AOE missiles, which I assume would be difficult to balance, but I feel like Ion wouldn't get too OP if it was turned into some kind of AOE, especially if its blast radius observed LOS so ships could still be protected from it. So why hasn't that idea been thrust forward before?

 

It has, and in truth, that buff would probably be easier to implement. In fact I'd say AOE ion damage makes more sense for a missile than for a rail gun, at least thematically speaking.

 

But actually capitalizing on AOE potential would be hard to do with a missile, since you only get to try every so often. Compare this to an ion railgun, which can spam attempts and offers little warning of an incoming shot.

 

The only time you have guarantees clumping of targets is on a sat, and it's hard to hit with a mid-range missile there because of LOS and the 2.7+ seconds of warning the target gets. And even the ion railgun's AOE really only comes into play on sats.

 

As for EMP Missile, it is really only mildly useful on a satellite because you are aiming it primarily at turrets and drones, both of which are easy to hit. You could do the same with an AOE ion missile I suppose (as is done with the rail gun), but it's not particularly appealing to me. I'd rather ion missile be more reliably useful in lots of situations. I'd like for a T2 to be able to combo Ion Missile with Cluster Missiles, and for T3 Scout and Strike to have a reasonable dogfighting weapon. And I think double-arc enables that more than AOE would.

 

Same with Ion Mine. If ion mine hit both shield arcs, it would be a great combo--even in TDM--for a Minelayer with an escort, or a lone T3 Bomber with Clusters. As it stands, ion mine already does AOE damage, and yet still is worthless. I was trying to come up with a buff that could help both missile and mine.

 

 

Good question though

Edited July 30, 2014 by Nemarus

[Verain]

I have a theory as to why there is precious little missile aoe in the game:

 

When a missile hits someone near you, you had essentially no agency in that strike on you.

 

The highest level of agency is given to you by a missile aimed at you- you get a UI warning, and have several buttons to break the missile.

 

A bit below that is a mine: you can't get hit by a mine unless you are close enough to it. The part that was in practice killing bad players (and possibly keeping good players off the node: the devs communicated nothing but the change, so it's hard for me to guess their intentions) was nerfed by the insertion of LOS.

 

Under that, you find railguns: you can't get hit by a railgun unless you let the gunship charge and fire while you remain in LOS. This is fully volitional, but it can be hard to keep track of the 15km sphere of possible threats. It's still "your fault", at least.

 

But a missile that hits your ally is far beneath all this stuff. Even the aoe mine that an ally triggers and hits you with, it is still your fault for being close to the mine. If more missiles had aoe, you would simply have to assume that every ship within a 10km bubble is locking a missile on to your allies, who will not dodge, at all times. For it to be "your fault" you would just have to stay far away from allies at all times- this is unreasonable, and likely would promote play that the devs don't want to see. Unlike missiles and railguns aimed at you, there's no UI warning- no tone, no glowing ball of sun, no stationary railgun, not even the facing of the ships is helpful.

 

 

 

That's my theory as to why we don't see it. But I can't be sure- the devs have been pretty generous with some development details, but they haven't offered us much design thoughts.

 

 

But even with all that- Man, would I love a missile that did a damned aoe blast. That would be fantastic.