Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Empire of Plagues vs Imperial Droid Division

[Beniboybling]

THey have those do they?

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=7536817&postcount=1

 

 

Where does it list that, or are we now allowed fighters and other such militarty ship compliments that we didnt specify?

 

I understand UNARMED. UNARMORED shuttles... but something like that is clearly armed, and armored.... It would be the equivlant of a Gunship.... I mean if we want to give those to the Vong ships then we need to start giving Silenceo http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ye-4_gunship In addition to his fighters or maybe even http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Alpha-class_Xg-1_Star_Wing or http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Delta-class_DX-9_stormtrooper_transport or http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gamma-class_assault_shuttle I mean these are your armed Gunships that HE doesnt have listed its no different then giving the Vong combat ships they dont have listed.

Basic transports/boarding craft are allowed unless you physically cannot field them with your ships, if that is the case then you must opt for them as an elite class. These craft cannot be used for combat, however I would not class what is essentially transporting troops from one ship to another, however aggressively, to be combat.

 

Though if it had guns (which it does not) the argument couldn't be made that it can fly around in space shooting down ships, all transports/boarding craft can do is perform the basic task of transportation and/or boarding vessels.

 

So for example I would allow something like a Droch-class boarding craft, I would also allow a C-9979 landing craft. To put it simply, basic equipment necessary for the operation of your fleets is and will always be provided. The reason being that I don't want to restrict people from basic equipment and the basic tactics that come with them.

 

EDIT: On that note recalling TFU Imperial naval vessels it seemed (though maybe only the SD models) had boarding pods and those big box things that would latch onto hangars. So they would have access to those.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Drill_Pod_Boarding_Craft

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Boarding_Pod

 

Though I would point out that even if the Yorik-trema could be argued be a "gunship", though it is clearly classed as a transport. The Empire of Plagues does have Vong shapers which provide them with all and every piece of Vong tech.

 

So altogether I don't feel this is an issue, though I will make boarding craft more clear in the rulebook.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

Transports/boarding craft are allowed unless you physically cannot field them with your ships, if that is the case then you must opt for them as an elite class. These craft cannot be used for combat, however I would not class what is essentially transporting troops from one ship to another, however aggressively, to be combat.

 

Though if it had guns (which it does not) the argument couldn't be made that it can fly around in space shooting down ships, all transports/boarding craft can do is perform the basic task of transportation and/or boarding vessels.

 

So for example I would allow something like a Droch-class boarding craft, I would also allow a C-9979 landing craft. To put it simply, basic equipment necessary for the operation of your fleets is and will always be provided.

 

Though I would point out that even if the Yorik-trema could be argued be a "gunship", though it is clearly classed as a transport. The Empire of Plagues does have Vong shapers which provide them with all and every piece of Vong tech.

 

So altogether I don't feel this is an issue, though I will make boarding craft more clear in the rulebook.

 

Really it has no weapons does it.....

 

Armament

Yaret-Kors (2)[1]

Dovin basals[1]

 

 

What do you call those....

 

 

This is classified as a troop transport http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gamma-class_assault_shuttle

 

 

you know what else is. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yorik-vec_assault_cruiser

 

Class

Transport[1]

 

Listed as Elite.....

 

Last I checked..... we were allowed LANDING craft and Transports to Transport supplies, my understanding was if you wanted boarding craft you needed to grab a gunship or a boarding craft of some kind to do so...

[Beniboybling]

See full post, didn't notice it has guns, but as I said it can't use them for combat. Actually I tell a lie it can considering that the Empire of Plagues has access to Vong shapers, so has full access to all Vong tech, including Tremas.

 

If your understanding is not what I just posted, then your understanding is misinformed, and I apologise for lack of clarity on that. So can we move on? I know how the Kaggath works and what the rules are.

 

P.S. The Gamma-class IMO is too advanced to be allowed, its not a basic transport. On top of heavy blaster cannons its got a tractor beam and concussion missile projectors. The Yorik-trema has the equivalent of two light cannons.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

See full post, didn't notice it has guns, but as I said it can't use them for combat. Actually I tell a lie it can considering that the Empire of Plagues has access to Vong shapers, so has full access to all Vong tech, including Tremas.

 

If your understanding is not what I just posted, then your understanding is misinformed, and I apologise for lack of clarity on that. So can we move on? I know how the Kaggath works and what the rules are.

 

Ok... http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/World_Ship

 

Vong win

 

/debate

 

 

Edit: saving this post for Warren's future matches.

Edited July 18, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

Ok... http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/World_Ship

 

Vong win

 

/debate

#41 While naval forces do still exist, shipyards – regardless of whether present or not – do not, fleet numbers are therefore static and repair and resupply are not options.

 

That would encapsulate Vong capital ships as well, regardless of how they are built.

 

So no I'm afraid.

 

EDIT: Actually that rule underwent some minor changes, standby for update.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

#41 While naval forces do still exist, shipyards – regardless of whether present or not – do not, fleet numbers are therefore static and repair and resupply are not options.

 

That would encapsulate Vong capital ships as well, regardless of how they are built.

 

So no I'm afraid.

 

Then how did the vong shapers build these boarding craft you are talking about? Magic?

 

And how did they get them onto this static fleet? More Magic?

 

 

Edit: When you are done with that please give me a full list of ships, vehicles, CHaracters, troop types, suppliers, factions, organizations or what ever that arent listed in the starting thread that we will be included, please do this for all the matches from this point on that way we can debate that way from the word go rather then continually feeling like the rules are changing when ever some one feels like it. IE you, people wondered why I was hoping not to participate in this one.

Edited July 18, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

Then how did the vong shapers build these boarding craft you are talking about? Magic?

 

And how did they get them onto this static fleet? More Magic?

Yeah as I said in the edit the rule is outdated and needs to be edited in light of the past Kaggath.

 

It now reads as follows:

 

#41 While naval forces do still exist, shipyards (if you have any) can only repair, they cannot resupply. Fleet numbers are therefore static, note that this only applies to capital ships.

 

Boarding craft and transports are pre-fielded, considering they are not supplier bound.

 

Anyway can we please move on? I know how the rules work so lets stop trying to find loopholes and errors. On this matter there are none. I can assure you I have considered all this in well in advance and a system has being created. If you remain unsure please consult the relevant section in the rulebook, I don't want to derail this thread.

 

If you really which to discuss this however, please take it over here. This is not the place.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

Yeah as I said in the edit the rule is outdated and needs to be edited in light of the past Kaggath.

 

It now reads as follows:

 

#41 While naval forces do still exist, shipyards (if you have any) can only repair, they cannot resupply. Fleet numbers are therefore static, note that this only applies to capital ships.

 

Boarding craft and transports are pre-fielded, considering they are not supplier bound.

 

Anyway can we please move on? I know how the rules work so lets stop trying to find loopholes and errors. On this matter there are none. I can assure you I have considered all this in well in advance and a system has being created. If you remain unsure please consult the relevant section in the rulebook, I don't want to derail this thread.

 

If you really which to discuss this however, please take it over here. This is not the place.

 

Done.....

[Warren-Stride]

Reposting from earlier:

 

Say what you will about Trench, but his feats don't add up to all the hype. Trench's first blockade over Malastare was easily broken by a un-noteworthy Jedi commander. In his second blockade, he did the obvious thing that all blockades are meant to do and cut off supplies to the planet. Then he allowed the Republic forces to escape because he was ordered to by a superior. Then he ordered a bombing run and battled a stealth ship (unsuccessfully). Then he was surprised by an unconventional tactic and died (but not really).

 

None of that suggests to me that he was a stellar commander. Certainly not nearly of the caliber as the Alliance/New Republic commanders that Lomi Plo's Dark Nest faced.

 

This whole thing about studying opponents? That's also nothing special. Who doesn't do that? Obviously any general has to adapt to the actions of their enemies. In the end, the only time Trench has done anything useful is when he has a blockade set up with superior fire power than the initial force sent to destroy it. In this Kaggath, it's the other way around. The AiR have the blockade, and he has less firepower. He's not going to provide the IDD any edge.

[Beniboybling]

Reposting from earlier:

 

Say what you will about Trench, but his feats don't add up to all the hype. Trench's first blockade over Malastare was easily broken by a un-noteworthy Jedi commander. In his second blockade, he did the obvious thing that all blockades are meant to do and cut off supplies to the planet. Then he allowed the Republic forces to escape because he was ordered to by a superior. Then he ordered a bombing run and battled a stealth ship (unsuccessfully). Then he was surprised by an unconventional tactic and died (but not really).

 

None of that suggests to me that he was a stellar commander. Certainly not nearly of the caliber as the Alliance/New Republic commanders that Lomi Plo's Dark Nest faced.

 

This whole thing about studying opponents? That's also nothing special. Who doesn't do that? Obviously any general has to adapt to the actions of their enemies. In the end, the only time Trench has done anything useful is when he has a blockade set up with superior fire power than the initial force sent to destroy it. In this Kaggath, it's the other way around. The AiR have the blockade, and he has less firepower. He's not going to provide the IDD any edge.

Yes but:

 

• Trench was victorious many times during the Andoan Wars, touted as their best military commander
   
   
  
• During the Battle of Malastare Trench outmaneuvered Yularen and decimated much of his fleet. He was only defeated when Jedi led reinforcements arrived. We don't know exactly how so we cannot assume.
   
   
  
• Being beaten by Anakin, with a stealth ship, is hardly something to be ashamed of.
   
   
  
• Trench had a fierce reputation, you don't get that by being a pushover.
  

I feel you are trying to low-ball Trench here with a some clever cherry-picking.

 

Come on, admit it.

[Warren-Stride]

I think overall tactics and strategies need to be discussed i.e. how everything comes together.

 

And how effective said tactics will be. So yeah, quite a bit to discuss before I call this.

 

I think tactics for the AiR are going to be pretty straight-forward. As was customary for Vong ships, the fighters will stay close to the capital ships to protect them. AiR has almost 1900 fighters, that's more than enough to guard all capital ships, including the Legacy of Torment. The carriers for AiR usually go to the outskrits of the battle, which is probably what they will do here. Which leaves the four Miid Ro'iks and the LoT to mount the main offensive. Each of these ships will have at least 300 fighters guarding them.

 

That fighter screen, which is unavoidable considering how close it is to the capital ships, will deal with the IDD fighters. Noting, that since the IDD fighters have to come to the AiR fleet, that the Tartan's will be under heavy fire on the way over.

 

While the AiR fighters are taking care of the IDD smaller craft, the LoT and Miid Ro'iks will be pounding the enemy ships with the yaret-kors, which ignore shields and are extremely powerful. The exposed bridges of the IDD ships will be turned to slag. All the while, the AiR ships will be largely undamaged due to the dovan basals absorbing the less powerful turbolaser blasts.

 

Once the capital ships are destroyed, convert the dovan basals into their tractor beam mode, and trap all the IDD fighters to pick them off one by one. Sitting ducks.

 

I think the most important thing to notice is that no matter what is happening with the fighter battle, the AiR capital ships will be wailing on the IDD capital ships, and tearing them apart from the very beginning.

[Selenial]

Do you not remember anything from my last Kaggath?

 

You know, the fact he obliterated a fleet larger than his over malastare, was a general on his homeworld and fought in a conflict that lasted centuries, was supposedly the greatest military commander that his species had ever seen, one of the most feared generals in the CIS?

 

That sort of thing.

[Selenial]

Beni, the little zombie things wouldn't be used for boarding parties.

 

Cause firstly, that would require getting the formula onto a vessel.

Then they'd have to make a zombie without it killing everyone on board (That's how the outbreak started)

Then they'd have to fly it over to a ship without being shot down by the many MANY anti star fighter defenses.

All the while making sure the little zonbie doesn't break out and slaughter the crew of the vessel.

 

The plague has a mind of its own,itd be smart enough to escape and would obliterate any ship it's made on.

[Beniboybling]

Beni, the little zombie things wouldn't be used for boarding parties.

 

Cause firstly, that would require getting the formula onto a vessel.

Then they'd have to make a zombie without it killing everyone on board (That's how the outbreak started)

Then they'd have to fly it over to a ship without being shot down by the many MANY anti star fighter defenses.

All the while making sure the little zonbie doesn't break out and slaughter the crew of the vessel.

 

The plague has a mind of its own,itd be smart enough to escape and would obliterate any ship it's made on.

A fair point.... though they could just send some Killik's over with hyperdermic needles and have them stab people.

 

Don't forget the slimy slime virus though, its airborne, all they have to do is disperse it and go.

 

But yeah a fair point, the volatility of these viruses may prove an issue for the Plagues.

[Warren-Stride]

Yes but:

 

• Trench was victorious many times during the Andoan Wars, touted as their best military commander
   
   
  
• During the Battle of Malastare Trench outmaneuvered Yularen and decimated much of his fleet. He was only defeated when Jedi led reinforcements arrived. We don't know exactly how so we cannot assume.
   
   
  
• Being beaten by Anakin, with a stealth ship, is hardly something to be ashamed of.
   
   
  
• Trench had a fierce reputation, you don't get that by being a pushover.
  

I feel you are trying to low-ball Trench here with a some clever cherry-picking.

 

Come on, admit it.

 

I honestly just told things as they were.

 

I'm not doubting that he's good. But what competition did he face in the Andoan Wars? Was this Kep-She woman a good tactician (we cannot assume)? When has Trench successfully done anything other than make blockades?

 

I do not see anything in his track record, any solid evidence, that he is more deadly than any other commander. Other Separatist generals, even unnamed ones, have won battles against the Republic. It really isn't that big of a feat.

[Beniboybling]

I honestly just told things as they were.

 

I'm not doubting that he's good. But what competition did he face in the Andoan Wars? Was this Kep-She woman a good tactician (we cannot assume)? When has Trench successfully done anything other than make blockades?

 

I do not see anything in his track record, any solid evidence, that he is more deadly than any other commander. Other Separatist generals, even unnamed ones, have won battles against the Republic. It really isn't that big of a feat.

Likely the very people you are attempting to equate him with i.e. "any other commander." His stellar record during the Andoan Wars points to him being a tactician superior to the average and better than Yularen.

 

This doesn't make him brilliant but it makes him better than good, it makes him a great tactician.

[Silenceo]

Just wanted to point out something. Since The EoP would have the blockade due to the starting scenario, this is not a good thing for the EoP.

 

Since you have so well put it, Trench LOVES blockades. Know what happens when you make a lot of them? You know exactly how to tear them apart, piece by piece. You have admitted yourself he is great at making blockades, I argue because of that, he is great at tearing them down.

 

Side Note: I think it should be reminded that if the carriers are being completely moved outside of the battle...you just HANDED the IDD the victory. they made up the majority of you fleet. They might have been weak compared to the others, but they still possessed guns, and acted as meat shields. Leaving only 4 capital ships and the Legacy of Terror to deal with the entire IDD fleet, minus all of the plasma volcanoes on the A-vek's... Lets just say that makes things MUCH worse for the EoP defense.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Silenceo

[LadyKulvax]

I would just like to repeat the point that Lomi is going to defend the LoT to the very likely point that most of her fleet will lack fighter screens, she will cradle her baby to the detriment of all else, almost all tacticians fall for this tunnel vision over flagships and I see Trench definitely exploiting this.

[Beniboybling]

I would just like to repeat the point that Lomi is going to defend the LoT to the very likely point that most of her fleet will lack fighter screens, she will cradle her baby to the detriment of all else, almost all tacticians fall for this tunnel vision over flagships and I see Trench definitely exploiting this.

The Plagues has 1,900 fighters though, I agree that she will perhaps overdedicate fighters to the LoT, but she has plenty to spare. I mean you can only dedicate so many fighters to one warship.

 

Though the Lot is a pretty big warship...

 

One thing we haven't discussed, captains going down with their ships? What is the likelihood if Lomi or Trench perishing in this battle if they were to lose? Or the possibility they may die in the course of victory?

Side Note: I think it should be reminded that if the carriers are being completely moved outside of the battle...you just HANDED the IDD the victory. they made up the majority of you fleet. They might have been weak compared to the others, but they still possessed guns, and acted as meat shields. Leaving only 4 capital ships and the Legacy of Terror to deal with the entire IDD fleet, minus all of the plasma volcanoes on the A-vek's... Lets just say that makes things MUCH worse for the EoP defense.

I think she meant at the rear, it was customary for them to be placed at the rear to provide support for larger warships. I assume so not to leave them exposed.

 

Would be pretty dumb to just send them away though.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Warren-Stride]

One thing we haven't discussed, captains going down with their ships? What is the likelihood if Lomi or Trench perishing in this battle if they were to lose? Or the possibility they may die in the course of victory?

 

Lomi doesn't have to be (and won't be) in space to command the battle. Killik hive mind allows her to connect with and control the killik's strategies from the surface.

[Beniboybling]

I think the most important thing to notice is that no matter what is happening with the fighter battle, the AiR capital ships will be wailing on the IDD capital ships, and tearing them apart from the very beginning.

Don't forget point-defense, this should protect the IDD capital ships from suffering under fire.

[Silenceo]

Small thing to note, both Vindicators and Strikes have tractor beams that could lock onto boarding craft to hold them still while they were blasted to bits.

[Selenial]

Lomi doesn't have to be (and won't be) in space to command the battle. Killik hive mind allows her to connect with and control the killik's strategies from the surface.

 

Have we ever had that kind of range be seen?

 

Just curious, never seen the Hive Mind go that far.

 

But yeh... Trench won't die. Trench just doesn't go down with his ship, the Taranch Hide is a great defense, and I'm guessing he's allowed his Andoan Mining suit (That he used to survive the first destruction of his Vessel) as it's a personal thing.

 

[Warren-Stride]

Don't forget point-defense, this should protect the IDD capital ships from suffering under fire.

 

This theory, of using lasers to destroy meteors (which is essentially what the AiR is shooting) has draw-backs. In shooting a meteor with a laser, it doesn't destroy it. It causes it to break into smaller pieces. The issue here is that shooting one of these meteors with a laser would simply increase the amount of damage they do, as they would split into many meteors and strike multiple parts of the ship. This won't degrade their effectiveness either, because they bypass shields and literally melt through hulls.

[Beniboybling]

Have we ever had that kind of range be seen?

 

Just curious, never seen the Hive Mind go that far.

 

But yeh... Trench won't die. Trench just doesn't go down with his ship, the Taranch Hide is a great defense, and I'm guessing he's allowed his Andoan Mining suit (That he used to survive the first destruction of his Vessel) as it's a personal thing.

Just saying he's already lost half his body. Might not work so well if he loses the other half.