no_limits Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Some of the main problems that sages/sorcs face not only in PVP, but also in PVE, are poor force management, long-time casts, survivability, and our AoE heal (salvation/revivification). This post explains my solutions in fixing these problems. --- Poor force management A few months ago, the sage top 3 answers were questioned, and in response to the second question, Eric asked about removing the health cost of using noble sacrifice/consumption. In my opinion, this would make sage/sorc force management too easy, so I have another solution instead - remove noble sacrifice's force degeneration effect. This won't make managing force for the sage/sorc too easy, but will eliminate the use of noble sacrifice/consumption with resplendence/force surge, thereby allowing the sage/sorc to use the resplendence/force surge charges for a faster salvation/revivification or a faster cast time for deliverance/dark infusion (explained later). Another problem that relates to the sage/sorc poor force management is the use of benevolence/dark heal. This short heal costs 70 force (66 when specced). The large force cost presents many problems with using this ability. My solution is to firstly grant two charges of conveyance/force bending when using rejuvenate/resurgence. Next, in addition to granting a 60% crit chance for the next benevolence/dark heal used, one charge of conveyance/force bending should also lower the force cost of the next benevolence/dark heal by 50%, making the next benevolence/dark heal cost 33 force instead of 65. This will allow the sage/sorc to use one charge for a lower force cost of salvation/revivification or 25% crit chance for healing trance/innervate, and the other charge for a buffed benevolence/dark heal with crit chance + lower cost, making the ability more appealing. Lastly, the force cost of deliverance/dark infusion should be reduced by 50% instead of 30% with the use of one charge of conveyance/force bending, so the ability does not look inferior to dark heal when sages/sorcs are given two charges of conveyance/force bending to use. --- Long-time casts Another problem with the seer/corruption sage/sorcerers is long time-casts, which ultimately shuts down the class in PVP. As mentioned, the removal of noble sacrifice/consumption with resplendence/force surge will allow the sage/sorc to use the charges for a faster cast time for salvation/revivification. IN ADDITION, resplendence/force surge charges should grant another effect - each use of a charge grants a lower cast time of deliverance/dark infusion by 1 second. This means that deliverance/dark infusion now takes 1.5 seconds to cast with the use of one charge of a resplendence/force surge, and ultimately reduces the cast time of the sage/sorcs longest casted ability. Furthermore, mental alacrity's/polarity shift's cooldown should be 90s instead of 120s, and replacing the sage's/sorc's now-useless ability amnesty/reverse corruption at the top of the seer/corruption tree should be an ability similar to the scoundrel's/operative's scramble/evasive imperatives - 'Every time you get attacked, the active cooldown of your mental alacrity/polarity shift is reduced by 3 seconds. This effect can not occur more than once every 1.5 seconds.' Both of these changes will grant interrupt immunity for the sage/sorc more often, hence removing the ever-so-common problem of our long-time casts being shut down in PVP. --- Survivability A huge problem with the seer/corruption sage/sorc, especially in ranked arenas, is survivability. While some of the problems with sage/sorc survivability is out of the sage/sorc class control (armor rating, TTK, etc), there are some things that can be done to improve the sage/sorc survivability. Firstly, force wake/electric bindings should be a baseline talent for the telekinetics/lightning tree. In PVP, there are a large number of melee enemies who attack the squishiest class in the game as a first choice. While our knockback does knock the enemies away for a second, they can simply leap (knight/warrior), sprint (shadow/assassin), or hold the line/hydraulic overrides (vanguard/PT) back to our position in a second. A root would greatly improve our survivability as it would help us quickly get away from our enemies to a safe position, without them stopping us in the way. Furthermore, egress/fadeout, in addition to its previous effects, should also grant the sage/sorc immunity to leaps/stuns while force speed is being used. In PVP, force speed is easily shut down with the enemy using a stun or leap. To prevent force speed, ultimately our best survivability tool, from being shut down, stun and leap immunity should be granted when specced into egress. --- AoE heal (salvation/revivification) Another problem in PvP is our AoE heal. Many people believe that our AoE heal is completely inferior to the scoundrel/operative AoE heal, as their AoE heal follows those affected wherever they go. When an ally leaves the circle, they lose the HoT given by salvation/revivification. A good solution to this is grant those who leave the circle a 50% HoT (50% of what they would get if they stood in the circle). This would make our AoE heal more useful in arenas, as those who leave the circle will now receive a small HoT, which is better than receiving no HoT at all, and this will also increase our HPS in both 8v8 warzones and warzone arenas. --- Would these solutions fix the sage's/sorcerer's growing problems in PVP? Maybe. But they definitely will contribute to a much greater spec that is not inferior to the scoundrel's/operative's and commando's/mercenary's healing specs in PvP. Let me know what you think, and please suggest any other alternatives/solutions for the seer/corruption spec in PVP. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhatMcMuffins Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Some decent ideas... But if you implemented all of them, it'd be OP. Also, Consumption should just not cost health. It's too counter-productive for arenas. That is way worse than the decreased force regeneration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dacce Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Some decent ideas... But if you implemented all of them, it'd be OP. Also, Consumption should just not cost health. It's too counter-productive for arenas. That is way worse than the decreased force regeneration. it used to not cost any health at all. The buff you get from channeling innervate basically gave it to you for free. They took that away because it was considered OP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterSLC Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 (edited) Considering that it's on the GCD, I really don't think a no HP-cost consumption would be OP. Edited July 9, 2014 by JediMasterSLC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adovir Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I agree with some of the ideas but you would essentially make yourself uninterruptable and you could have a pretty frequent CC immunity which is just unfair to all classes not just the healers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdrianDmitruk Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Considering that it's on the GCD, I really don't think a no HP-cost consumption would be OP. It wouldn't be OP for PVP, but it'd make PVE Force management LOLeasy, which is why we lost it in the first place. Which is why so many people suggested tying it to the 4pc PVP set bonus in the seer answers/feedback thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterSLC Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 It wouldn't be OP for PVP, but it'd make PVE Force management LOLeasy, which is why we lost it in the first place. Which is why so many people suggested tying it to the 4pc PVP set bonus in the seer answers/feedback thread. Yep, that's a very good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterone Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Good ideas, but with PvP in mind I don't think Consumption should cost any health. It just puts us in a very dangerous situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no_limits Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 bump Come on! Make it happen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesmindassassin Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Egress does provide leap immunity. I'm guessing you never PvP on a Sage/Sorc or leaper or never get leapt to while using Egress or never leap to any Sage/Sorc while they are using Egress. As someone who has a Sage/Sorc/Jugg/Mara/PT/VG, I can tell you with 100% certainty that Egress does provide... actually, maybe I didn't understand what you were saying correctly. Did you mean leap immunity or immunity to roots? Because it already has immunity to roots and leaping just makes you leap to where they were when you leapt, but they won't be there anymore since they used Force Speed, so you just effectively wasted a gap closer and didn't close the gap. I'm guessing you want Egress to make using Force Speed make it so that you can't leap at all during the duration? Kind of like Cover or Electro Net? Eh, that can be good and bad. It would be good if you got far enough away or ran behind a pillar so that they can't leap to you, but any less and they just leap to you immediately after which is far worse than the way it works now where they may still leap to you, but only get halfway there and it didn't close the gap. Now I do agree with you that shutting down Egress is very easy with CC's/stuns. Happens 90% of the time on my Sage/Sorc against decent players. CC/stun immunity every 20 seconds on top of root/snare immunity might be OP'd, though. As long as the health cost is attached to Noble Sacrifice/Unnatural Preservation it will never be good in PvP. Making the 4-piece remove the health cost may work, but I fear that PvE Sages/Sorcs will just get the 4-piece set bonus from PvP and use it in PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdrianDmitruk Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) Egress does provide leap immunity. I'm guessing you never PvP on a Sage/Sorc or leaper or never get leapt to while using Egress or never leap to any Sage/Sorc while they are using Egress. As someone who has a Sage/Sorc/Jugg/Mara/PT/VG, I can tell you with 100% certainty that Egress does provide... actually, maybe I didn't understand what you were saying correctly. Did you mean leap immunity or immunity to roots? Because it already has immunity to roots and leaping just makes you leap to where they were when you leapt, but they won't be there anymore since they used Force Speed, so you just effectively wasted a gap closer and didn't close the gap. I'm guessing you want Egress to make using Force Speed make it so that you can't leap at all during the duration? Kind of like Cover or Electro Net? Eh, that can be good and bad. It would be good if you got far enough away or ran behind a pillar so that they can't leap to you, but any less and they just leap to you immediately after which is far worse than the way it works now where they may still leap to you, but only get halfway there and it didn't close the gap. Now I do agree with you that shutting down Egress is very easy with CC's/stuns. Happens 90% of the time on my Sage/Sorc against decent players. CC/stun immunity every 20 seconds on top of root/snare immunity might be OP'd, though. As long as the health cost is attached to Noble Sacrifice/Unnatural Preservation it will never be good in PvP. Making the 4-piece remove the health cost may work, but I fear that PvE Sages/Sorcs will just get the 4-piece set bonus from PvP and use it in PvE. Egress doesn't like leaps very much. The reason why is a little complicated, and the OP doesn't really identify the correct problem with it that needs to be fixed. Say we hit Force Speed (with Egress ofc) to run away from you. You leap to us. In theory, we should be immune to the root on the leap, and you might get one attack in before we're out of range again. In practice, the root (that we are immune to) gets applied when you start the leap, but when you land, we get rubberbanded back to your leap, even though we should be immune to the root. So you could leap to me when I have Egress active, I could have run 10m away from you during the leap, and your leap will literally pull me back the 10m when you land. This basically neuters egress as much of the duration of that buff was spent running away that 10m, only to be rubberbanded back to you. For this reason, good sages/sorcs will wait until the instant you land to hit Force Speed, to adapt to the rubberbanding (that should not be there in the first place). Yes, we need a sixth sense to predict your leaps for that to work. Edited July 21, 2014 by AdrianDmitruk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts