Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Chirikyat Ascendancy vs Republic Resistance

[Silenceo]

Ok, guys, how many more points do you all have for space?

 

If you guys can all (as many of you as possible) make final arguments (If you have no more points, so many walls of texts I think we're finished) I can do a space tally and begin to factor in the Space battle.

 

And yes, I think it should be called in the next day (Max) seeing as you really can't discuss a ground battle until we decide whether Mandalmotors and the Ascendancy gets supply drops etc, or the Resistance does.

 

:eek::eek: Already nearly time to call it?! But, but....there is so much more to go over! :(

 

Besides, I really think we should NOT look at these as two separate battles, but rather two halves to a greater whole. What happens if say, RR wins the space battle, but the CA wins the ground battle, with Nomi retreating to the Bellator?! ANARCHY I SAY!

 

Side Note: If it is to be called soon...I shall soon make a grand, gigantic, wall-o-text that shall shame my previous ones in this thread.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Silenceo

[Beniboybling]

The reason the discovery was such a big deal is because Beskar is RARE. As I pointed out in my other post, it was not used for Neo-Crusader armor nor was it used for Basilisk War Droids. At best it's used to make guantlets or swords. Concentrated armoring uses were implausible with the limited amount of Beskar they have. After the discovery of a new deposit in 40 ABY, they finally had enough Beskar to apply it to ships. In fact, after such a big lode they could still only use it on fighters, not capital ships.

I'm confused as to how you are reconciling that with the fact that:

 

1. The History of the Mandalorians, which predates the Legacy era, outright states they used it on starships (if the Wookiee is to be believed) which means that prior to 40 ABY they had enough Beskar to apply it to ships.

 

2. MandalMotors reinforced the prison ships with Mandalorian iron prior to this date also.

 

Simply put, they have done it before, so clearly it was not new, and they had the resources.

 

On that topic Beskar was rare at the time, but during the Crusader and Neo-Crusader era all sources point to it being fairly abundant, becoming a prominent export from Mandalore that everyone wanted their to get their hands on.

 

Heck, the entire capital city of Sundari was reinforced with Mandalorian iron, that's Clone Wars era, even then it seems they had quite a ton. Indeed, as far as I can tell it only became rare after the Empire strip-mined the planet:

 

"Mand'alor, you're looking at a test forging from a new lode of beskar."

"But the Empire strip-mined Mandalore. They took all the iron."

"They missed a bit. A big bit. [...] This is a planet with a tiny population, and even the Imperials didn't survey all of it. They stripped the shallow veins. This is a deeper lode, and we'd never have found it if the vongese hadn't left craters you could sink a small moon in. There's a crew a hundred klicks north of Enceri still doing test drills, but it looks like a big, big lode that was exposed."

 

―Medrit Vasur and Mand'alor Boba Fett, discussing the discovery a new lode of beskar ore on Mandalore

 

And if they managed to miss a "big" bit in its hey-days it must have had a whole lot of iron, a whole damn lot. And that's without taking into account the iron on Concordia, which had so much they laid waste to the forests just to get it.

 

Here is another quote, from the Legacy era:

 

"Now that you have abundant beskar, you'll rearm. Roche may be outside of your sector, but the last time Mandalorians had plenty of beskar, the Mandalore sector became much, much bigger."

 

Now concerning this quote that you challenged:

 

...elected to provide the Bes'uliik line with micronized beskar armor instead of a beskar laminate—and the Tra'kad, which employed heavy Mandalorian iron armor plating.

 

What I gather from this that prior to this event, in the immediate past, they used beskar laminate on at the very least starfighter lines, otherwise the word "instead of" (or rather to replace) would not have been used. And given that he was able to do so at the drop of that hat indicated that all they needed were the resources - so its more than possible.

 

So these are the facts.

 

1. Mandalorians can and have applied Mandalorian iron reinforcements to capital ships in the past.

 

2. They were only capable of doing this with abudant amounts of Beskar material.

 

3. Beskar was abundant during the Crusader era, considering every Mando had a set of armor, they were fully armed and at the height of prosperity, conquering and expanding across the galaxy from then on after.

 

Given that it seems more than plausible to assume that the mainstay of the Mandalorian Fleet would at the very least have Mandalorian reinforcements and/or Mandalorian laminate, if not armor plating, it was well within their power.

 

Concerning Basilisk War Droids, I may be mistaken, but I see no evidence to suggest that they did not have Mandalorian iron reinforcements of some kind, as you said they were the pride and joy of the Mandalorians.

 

To add to that:

 

The Basilisk war droid is the epitome of weapon technology. State of the art weaponry, armor, and maneuverability.

 

--KOTOR II

 

What could be more state of the art than the toughest iron in the galaxy, of which they are sitting on? If not the only explanation I have is Selenial's or the fact that they were stolen from another race. If they can coat themselves and entire cities with Beskar, I see no reason why they would not slap some on their most prized war machines.

 

I'd rather not make a decision on this by myself, so I propose a vote for something.

[Selenial]

:eek::eek: Already nearly time to call it?! But, but....there is so much more to go over! :(

 

Besides, I really think we should NOT look at these as two separate battles, but rather two halves to a greater whole. What happens if say, RR wins the space battle, but the CA wins the ground battle, with Nomi retreating to the Bellator?! ANARCHY I SAY!

 

Side Note: If it is to be called soon...I shall soon make a grand, gigantic, wall-o-text that shall shame my previous ones in this thread.

 

That's the thing.

 

The space battle needs to be sorted before we can actually move on to ground, I haven't even counted any ground battle arguments for my tally yet.

 

I see it like this: We call a rough outline of where Space will be, then move onto ground. It's in THIS where we talk about Maul killing Nek, because Maul killing Nek affects both the ground and the space battles, and we need to see how space fares before we can discuss an intervention by Maul.

 

Also, Sunrider cannot leave Yavin, neither can Kun. The leaders are restricted to the planet they are battling over.

 

But yes, if people have great need to keep it open, I'll do so. I just feel a general idea needs to be settled on before we say how others can counter it, and so far I've just seen people making the same points repeatedly and going in circles.

 

This isn't by any means marking a halfway point in the Kaggath. I expect these to be shorter than last time, but this will go on for another week or two IMO. We shall see.

[Wolfninjajedi]

So...just to note something......aren't ground battles kind of moot? Whoever wins the space battle, shouldn't they just....ya know, be able to obliterate the enemy ground forces?

 

I mean i'll be honest Beni, when you said Battlegrounds. I thought you were meaning just strictly ground battles for this.....which imo would be far more entertaining as we never seem to focus on ground things really, it's always been space this or space that for the most part.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Selenial]

I'd rather not make a decision on this by myself, so I propose a vote for something.

 

If we want to keep it arbiter, we have 3 arbiters who are not involved in this Kaggath and have no vested interest that might create Bias.

 

Or we can make it an open forum vote.

 

Either way I've made up my mind, and I'm happy to sort it either way.

[StarSquirrel]

I think the Sun Guard may be an issue for the Ascendancy.

 

I mentioned their reluctance to follow a Mandalore, and I realize that you answered that argument Star, but I'm not convinced that the two cultures would ever be able to truly work together. If Mandalore's command of them was kept minimal it could work, but then I don't really see Mandalore's purpose in this Kaggath.

 

I totally get you Star with the whole "one of your leadership has to be associated with every one of your units", that was annoying for me too. But at the moment I don't think Mandalore is doing anything for you. What do you think he should/would do in this Kaggath to help the Ascendancy?

I can see your point. My argument would be that their fanatical devotion to the Sith and respect for the Mandalorians as well as their inherent hate of Jedi would strongly motivate them to follow Mandalore's orders. I see Mandalore leading the Sun Guard who are on the War Droids, giving them the edge of a leader well versed in the tactics of using the War Droids.

 

Also, the Basilisk War Droid is kinda a big enough deal to be worth it.

 

But other than the Mandalore issue, the Sun Guard, I assume, are the ones piloting Ascendancy ships. If that's the case, that could be an issue. I don't doubt that the Sun Guard could pilot the ships, but I don't think they've ever been shown to be particularly good pilots, putting the Republic ahead as far as pilot skill.

 

Additionally, the Sun Guard have faced the Republic's forces before. The Sun Guard fought in the Clone Wars, where their 2nd Regiment was crushed by Republic General Solomahal. Two Sun Guards were deployed to Kashyyyk during the PT era and were killed by two Jedi padawans. These examples basically prove that both Republic ground forces are more than a match for the Sun Guard.

 

I think Sun Guard would be best used as task-force, specialist types, at least on the ground. Open warfare doesn't seem to be their forte.

You're right in part.

 

Also note, they didn't engage the republic a whole lot so what little information there is should be taken with a grain of salt. We do know they were a match for the Mandalorians who we can all agree are superior to the clones. We know they fought a roughly equally-sized Mandalorian contingent for 3 years.

 

You can decide which is more important, but I think the fact they are repeatedly called rivals of the Mandalorians ( and Echani) says something very important.

 

You're right, open warfare isn't the ideal situation for them. However I don't know how "open" warfare on Yavin IV will actually be. I'll make the point that it is heavily forested again, I think the limited visibility will provide an advantage for the Ascendancy that offsets the Republic's advantage at range.

Edited July 3, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Selenial]

So...just to note something......aren't ground battles kind of moot? Whoever wins the space battle, shouldn't they just....ya know, be able to obliterate the enemy ground forces?

 

I mean i'll be honest Beni, when you said Battlegrounds. I thought you were meaning just strictly ground battles for this.....which imo would be far more entertaining as we never seem to focus on ground things really, it's always been space this or space that for the most part.

 

No orbital bombardment.

 

Basically, imagine this planet is full of precious leaves that are worth bajillions of credits and can fund an empire into a new golden age, no leaves would be exploded that don't have to be

[Silenceo]

No orbital bombardment.

 

Basically, imagine this planet is full of precious leaves that are worth bajillions of credits and can fund an empire into a new golden age, no leaves would be exploded that don't have to be

 

Can Maul force the Bellator to "land" on top of the RR forces after he has killed Nek?

Edited July 3, 2014 by Silenceo

[Aurbere]

If we want to keep it arbiter, we have 3 arbiters who are not involved in this Kaggath and have no vested interest that might create Bias.

 

Or we can make it an open forum vote.

 

Either way I've made up my mind, and I'm happy to sort it either way.

 

I'll say my piece.

 

I feel that, if the ships are armored with Beskar, it is not a substantial amount. It is most likely a thin plating, in my opinion.

[Selenial]

Can Maul force the Bellator to "land" on top of the RR forces after he has killed Nek?

 

No Kamikaze either, from what I gathered (IE, what I gathered when we went through Warren's OP little vong flagship )

[StarSquirrel]

Can Maul force the Bellator to "land" on top of the RR forces after he has killed Nek?

 

I like this plan

[tunewalker]

For space as far as the ships go.

 

I stand by my analysis on page 7 and my re-analysis on page 9 about firepower and the like of each war ship.

 

The Proton torps on the Acclamator were the same ones used on the later Torpedo Sphere obviously in much less number.

 

They have 2 of them and the Kyramud has 10 Assault Conc missiels which were specifically designed for heavy punch against other Capital ships. Now I feel the Torpedoes ahve a stronger punch BUT the Kyramud has more see post #80 for my altered analysis for Kyramud vs Acclamator II.

 

 

See post #82 with my analysis for the properly updated Bellator analysis and final analysis for cap ships. I have seen nothing thus far that would prompt me to change this analysis.

 

 

Also Check Post #90 for my analysis on fighters. I do not believe either has to large an advantage in fighter quality thanks to the tech rule. If anything I gave the Ascendancy a slight advantage i fighter quality because they find themselves in a situation where their Bombers helping to defend them is incredibly useful and the Republic finds themselves in a situation where Ionizers needing something else to deliver the finishing blow to a system before its repaired could POTENTIALLY be slightly detrimental.

 

 

As for the arguement about putting the Venator's on their side to deploy, I would like to give 1 warning about showing that ships underbelly.

 

If they enemy closes in that position, it wont matter if its the bottom thats showing. They will have clean shots at Venators with out even fearing any retribution from the Venator's themselves. While not as many Venators will be destroyed in this time the Ascendancy will also hold up better thanks simply not being shot at by Venators for a short time.

 

Just something to think about.

 

 

Remember that my analysis on those pages do not take into account tactics they are just an asset analysis, but I have seen no reasons given thus far to change those analysises.

[Beniboybling]

It's not outright stated that Bassilisks have Beskar plating, but my god they're tough, are we sure they're not Beskar plated?

 

Also that passage is something to look back on once the space battle is called, someone remind me.

They are "heavily armored" as far as I can tell, but I can think of no other armor that can actually deflect blaster bolts.

[StarSquirrel]

I'll say my piece.

 

I feel that, if the ships are armored with Beskar, it is not a substantial amount. It is most likely a thin plating, in my opinion.

Ah, but that would be enough to sustain a few direct hits from even the Venator's guns before giving out. besides, I'm not banking on the Beskar entirely, there is still the Solo and Maul to consider.

[Silenceo]

No Kamikaze either, from what I gathered (IE, what I gathered when we went through Warren's OP little vong flagship )

 

Its not a crash landing, simply a landing. With a ship that likely is not meant to land on planets. He just has to "gently" set down on the RR location to...sell thing discounts on sith cookies, obviously!

[Aurbere]

Ah, but that would be enough to sustain a few direct hits from even the Venator's guns before giving out. besides, I'm not banking on the Beskar entirely, there is still the Solo and Maul to consider.

 

Most likely, unless the Venators go full power with those heavy laser cannons.

[Warren-Stride]

I can see your point. My argument would be that their fanatical devotion to the Sith and respect for the Mandalorians as well as their inherent hate of Jedi would strongly motivate them to follow Mandalore's orders. I see Mandalore leading the Sun Guard who are on the War Droids, giving them the edge of a leader well versed in the tactics of using the War Droids.

 

Also, the Basilisk War Droid is kinda a big enough deal to be worth it.

 

Fair enough. And I suppose you're probably right, they might not be happy about it at first, but I think the benefits to working with Mandalore are more important (especially to their Sith master) than a petty rivalry.

 

I'm sure the Sun Guard could ride the Basilisks just fine, but the other ships... It's unlikely they'd be particularly well suited to dogfight with Clones.

You're right, open warfare isn't the ideal situation for them. However I don't know how "open" warfare on Yavin IV will actually be. I'll make the point that it is heavily forested again, I think the limited visibility will provide an advantage for the Ascendancy that offsets the Republic's advantage at range.

 

That's true... Sun Guard do seem like the guerilla warfare types and Yavin is perfect for that. Something to consider when we get to ground, for sure.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Warren-Stride

[tunewalker]

As far as my understanding of the rules, its not the sungaurd themselves flying the ships, but What ever the Navy of the Sungaurd was. Bassically who ever did the flying for the Sungaurd does the flying now.

[Warren-Stride]

As far as my understanding of the rules, its not the sungaurd themselves flying the ships, but What ever the Navy of the Sungaurd was. Bassically who ever did the flying for the Sungaurd does the flying now.

 

I'm not sure the Sun Guard HAVE a navy.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Warren-Stride

[tunewalker]

I'm not sure the Sun Guard HAVE a navy.

 

Who flew the Sun Gaurd to where they needed to be

[Silenceo]

I'm not sure the Sun Guard HAVE a navy.

 

If nothing else, it could be piloted by either Imperials or Mandalorians due to the ships used, but ofc, it is up to the arbiter. Arbiter! ARBITRATE!

[StarSquirrel]

My final argument on Space is this.

 

Between Daala and Nek, we all know Nek is the better tactician. My argument though, is that as good as Nek is, he has had times where retreat was his only option. He wins battles when they're fought on his terms. He is an admiral who plays the big picture much of the time. His work against the Vong was based on ambushes or countering them and predicting his enemy.

 

The problem here is that he doesn't have time or room to prepare. He is a master fleet tactician, but Daala is a master tactician herself. She knows Nek and his work, she has a ship he once commanded, she has all the tools at her fingertips to pull off the micro-jump tactic and to do so under cloak, giving Nek no time to react. It comes down to Nek not having the opportunity to showcase his talents as opposed to having them beat.

 

also, like Tune mentioned. Turning the Venator on its side to release the fighters would help, but the reduced firepower against the Imperial II's would leave both the Venators and the Bellator exposed and outnumbered by 7 Imperial II's one of which has the most advanced targeting and anti-starfighter weapons on the battle field. (the Solo's were advanced for their time)

 

As for ship comparisons, I tend to agree with Tune's analysis barring the increased survivability of the Kyramud as a result of the Beskar argument Beni so eloquently made. But using the tactics I posed that would put the Republic fleet in very dire straits.

[Selenial]

If nothing else, it could be piloted by either Imperials or Mandalorians due to the ships used, but ofc, it is up to the arbiter. Arbiter! ARBITRATE!

 

I'M SO SICK OF THIS.

 

*Throws down ceremonial dunce hat*

 

You do it!

 

 

Uhh... No but seriously.... Again, this is a large faction decision so I'm unsure what to do.

 

What i'd say is they're Sun Guard members, but we can standardize them to basically be Mandalorians. They fought Mandalorians on equal footing quite a bit, rivals for some time, though we don't have much information on their space capabilities, so let's just say they have the skills of the Mandalorian Neo-Crusaders.

 

Seems fair right?

 

Edit: If nothing else, let's just say they get Neo-Crusaders from Mandalore ( the planet or person, either works)

Edited July 3, 2014 by Selenial

[tunewalker]

If nothing else, it could be piloted by either Imperials or Mandalorians due to the ships used, but ofc, it is up to the arbiter. Arbiter! ARBITRATE!

 

Honestly if we cant decide, I would just say Mando's because they have Mandalore, I mean my understanding about having to pick units that your leadership had access to leans me towards thinking that when it comes to ships they are crewed by some one our leadership would have access to as well, especially if other wise unable to find a suitable Naval equivlent to a ground force.

[StarSquirrel]

That's true... Sun Guard do seem like the guerilla warfare types and Yavin is perfect for that. Something to consider when we get to ground, for sure.

 

Actually coming to read their Wookiee page, it turns out they were trained extensively in stealth and melee combat. food for thought.