Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Chirikyat Ascendancy vs Republic Resistance

[Wolfninjajedi]

Are you referring to this battle? Mace Windu handled her just fine. I don't really see how a master of his level could not.

 

I mean what are we suggesting here? That Ventress is a powerful as Windu.

 

Anyway, as far as I can tell Vaapad can't make you more powerful than your opponent, because your channeling their energies, Sidious and Windu fought on equal grounds, as did Sora and Windu (though I expect Windu would have won)

 

And of course in depends on how much energy they are throwing at you.

 

But the fact of the matter is it makes him more powerful, as long as he can channel those energies.

 

Never said he couldn't handle her, just that he had to use everything according to the fact file just to do so. Though I don't think it was that particular instance, no.

[tunewalker]

Fighter numbers

 

Ascendancy:

 

Imperial II: 72 Fighters or 6 squads, 30+ various other craft types, "elite craft" if you will or 3 squads

 

Kyramud-type Battleship: 36 Fighters per or 3 squads

 

total of 7 Imp II (flagship is an Imp II as well)= 504 Fighters or 42 squads and 210+ "elite Craft" or 21 squads

 

and 13 Kyramud = 468 fighters or 39 squads

 

Total: 972 fighters or 81 squads and 210+ "elite craft" or 21 squads for a total of 102 squads

 

Vs

 

Venator: 192 Fighter Type 1 (assuming crossfire) or 16 squads, 192 Fighter type 2 (assuming ionizer) or 16 squads and 36 elite fighters (assuming X-83 twintail) or 3 squads, also 40 additional gunships (assuming replaced with either X-83's or Ionizers) which could also be considered "elite fighters") for a total of 420 Fighters with 40 "elite fighters/gunships"

 

Acclamator II: not much info I can find on this but from what I have been able to find its said to have 80% LESS cargo space then its predicessor and I dont see a fighter configuration for this. I may need outside info, but as far as I can tell 0 fighters here.

 

Bellator: 560 or 46 1/2 squads (various makeup I would presume

 

4 Venators: Total 64 Squads (Cross fire), 64 Squads (Ionizer), 12 squads (X-83), 160 additional fighters (various, likely ionizers and X83's)

 

Grand total: 140 Squads + 620 additional fighters ( or around 51 1/3rd more squads)

 

The Republic little over doubles the competitions fighter compliment. In addition The republic's capital ships have better Fighter defenses meaning more can be used for assault on the Ascendancy.

 

Second the major issue with most Imp II's is they fall victum to http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Trench_Run_Defense

 

though the Anakin Solo is not one of them that does.

 

The ascendancy may be able to minimalize the effect of the Space battle however, by utilizing the Anakin Solo's cloaking device as a means to get supplies to the planet regardless of what is happening in space. Though the limited cargo means no where near as much supplies would make it through as the Republic should the Republic win that space battle.

 

 

Edited to fix math

Edited July 3, 2014 by tunewalker

[tunewalker]

After personal Comparison for Capital ship vs Capital ship (no compliment inclusion the above already has that) This is my assessment

 

Acclamator II= Kyramud

 

They are both litterally the same size with similar load outs. Though as far as I can tell Kyramud's have more fighters (as Acclamator II has none) and more fighter defense in the Point defense Ion guns. Meaning overall Ship to Ship the Acclamator would likely take a slight edge in cap ship battles. it comes down to 10 vs 13 and with the afformentioned slight advantage Kyramuds win with 2 Left over.

 

Venator= 2 Kyramud

 

As far as I understand Venators are a little over Acclamator II's in terms of endurance+ firepower as this is the case I feel 2 Kyramud's would be equivlant to a Venator (again this is cap ship vs cap ship compliments were already analyzed leave that out)

 

leaving 3 Venator's left

 

Venator= .5 Imperial II

 

We went over this extensively the Imp II can nearly TRIPLE the power output of the Venator who has shields only as strong as the Victory-I. While it has impressive fire control systems that allow for powerful piercing shots on the few guns it has these piercing shots were only ever preformed on Dreadnaught level of shield defenses which are slightly WEAKER then the Victories are, the Imp II's main guns are not as much of a push over as the Imp I's were I would suspect they would be capable of matching the main guns in the Venator and then the additional guns pushing it above and beyond as I suspect the rest of its guns combined are equal to its main guns. Its primary weakness is the lack of armor on its main guns and lack of point defense guns allowing fighters to easily devistate the Imperial II if its not careful or supported by smaller ships. But this is cap ship vs cap ship here fighters were considered before, overall will be considered next.

 

4.5 Imp II's (not including Anakin) left

 

 

Bellator= 2 Imp II's (1 of them being the Anakin using long range turbolasers on closing)

 

The Bellator has excellent fighter defenses while also being massive and having massive capital ship firepower, but its excellent fighter defenses (concussion missiles and point defense guns) seem to have limited its number of heavy weapons more so then the Imp II allowing a couple of them to catch up. Though its size and heavy shielding and armor do REQUIRE that 1 of those Imp II's be highly modified as the Anakin currently is with out it I would say it would take at least 3 Imp II's to bring this monstrosity down.

 

 

Advantage Ascendancy in Capital ship firepower and toughness by 3.5 Imp II's

Edited July 3, 2014 by tunewalker

[tunewalker]

Cap Ship Fighter defenses.

 

 

Ascendancy

 

Kyramud-type: Point defense Ion cannons 12 each, the "heavy concussions" would likely be "Assault concussions" in later era's as they seem meant for capital ship offense

 

13 Kyramud: 156 Point defense Ion Cannon's

 

They have a fairly decent Fighter defense, but its not substantial they can defend themselves for the most part, but wont be able to use much of that defense for other ships.

 

Anakin Solo: Concussion Missiles and Anti-starfighter added to Imp II these again allow for it to adiquately defend itself against Fighters, but there is doubt that that defense could be shared with other ships as it wasnt extensive enough.

 

Imp II: Lacks all fighter defenses requires fighters and other ships to defend itself from fighter attacks.

 

Overall assessment of fighter vulnerability: With the enemy at greater then 2:1 fighters and thus having over 500 more fighters the Ascendency has neither enough fighters nor enough fighter defences on its ships to properly protect from fighter runs. Severe damage can be dealt by fighter attack runs to Ascendancy Ships.

 

Republic

 

Venator: 52 Point defense cannons

 

4 Venators= 208 Point defense cannons

 

They have extensive Fighter defenses much more then neccissary for the size of ship allowing it to help defend surrounding ships as well, this likely comes from facing CiS carriers that could swarm with thousands of droid fighters.

 

Acclamator II: No visible Fighter defenses This ship was clearly meant for Cap Ship to Cap Ship dueling and planetary bombardment, it relied solely on other ships around it for fighter defense

 

Bellator: 60 Concussion Tubes and 50 point defense guns

 

Adequate fighter defense for a ship its size allowing for good coverage. Defenses are not extensive so covering other ships is likely not enough and some leaning on fighter defenses helps.

 

Overall: While outnumbering enemy fighters by more then 2:1 and their strongest ships having an overall ability to cover either just themselves or themselves and others adequately I find extremely little chance of success at any attack run on these ships

 

 

Complete analysis of fighter offense vs Defense:

 

The more then double the fighters on the side of the Republic combined with its greater fighter defenses means the Ascendancy will be placed on its back foot for fighter defense calling almost all its fighters into a defensive position. While the Republic can afford to send all its fighters ahead with no fear of retribution by its opponent as any attempt will leave Ascendancy ships vulnerable and will have little to no affect on the Republic ships as their weapons defensive screen will eliminate almost all enemy fighters.

 

Even calling all fighters back the lack of number of fighters and Overall fighter defenses will leave the Imp II's at conciderable risk for strikes. I suspect many of the main guns on the Imp II's and potentially some or all of their shields will be damaged by fighter attack runs potentially reducing their threat by half or more.

[tunewalker]

Final Summary Analysis:

 

The Republic has both over double the number of fighters and an even stronger fighter defense.

 

In addition to this each of the republic ships still pack enough of a punch and can take enough of a beating that the Ascendancy doesnt take a huge advantage in cap ship battles.

 

With the fighters taking out some of the most dangerous points on the Ascendancies ships the Republic is more then able to out match and out maneuver their enemies who are also slightly slower.

 

After grueling space battle (and tactics not being considered just offensive and defensive capabilities of ships) I believe that the Republic has the upper hand as the lack of fighter's and fighter defenses on their most important ships will likely lead to the Republic fighting largely crippled main defenses of the Ascendancy by the time the Capital ships fully engage one another.

 

My assessment is that overall Space Preformance goes to Republic.

Edited July 3, 2014 by tunewalker

[Silenceo]

This is a small thing, but something I thought worth mentioning. A great deal of the fighter craft will be coming from the Venators, but to fully deploy them takes quite a bit of time, and as we all know, when those hangers are open the ship is extremely vulnerable. They likely have never faced long range turbolasers *Though, Nek likely knows about them and likely has seen them in action, though unsure if he knows that the Anakin Solo is present this soon into the battle. He was an active participant in the little war that Caedus enacted if I recall correctly.*

 

What I see as a high possibility is that Daala likely knows this weakness so when she sees the Venators begin opening their gigantic hangers, she will likely order the Anakin Skywalker to open fire on the Venators. In so doing it is possible that the Venators could be heavily damaged or out right destroyed before a good deal of their fighter compliment can be deployed as well as losing valuable capital ships. If this tactic succeeds, the Ascendancy will stand a much better chance of pulling even, or perhaps ahead.

[tunewalker]

This is a small thing, but something I thought worth mentioning. A great deal of the fighter craft will be coming from the Venators, but to fully deploy them takes quite a bit of time, and as we all know, when those hangers are open the ship is extremely vulnerable. They likely have never faced long range turbolasers *Though, Nek likely knows about them and likely has seen them in action, though unsure if he knows that the Anakin Solo is present this soon into the battle. He was an active participant in the little war that Caedus enacted if I recall correctly.*

 

What I see as a high possibility is that Daala likely knows this weakness so when she sees the Venators begin opening their gigantic hangers, she will likely order the Anakin Skywalker to open fire on the Venators. In so doing it is possible that the Venators could be heavily damaged or out right destroyed before a good deal of their fighter compliment can be deployed as well as losing valuable capital ships. If this tactic succeeds, the Ascendancy will stand a much better chance of pulling even, or perhaps ahead.

 

Absolutely agree with this. That is why this assessment was purely 100% based on compliments, Cap ship defenses and Compliment defenses. Tactics are something else entirely that will obviously modify the effects of every ship and thats what I want to get into now..... tactics and their affect on the original assessment .

 

 

Other then that do you find the above assessments to be pretty fair so we can talk about tactics?

Edited July 3, 2014 by tunewalker

[Silenceo]

Absolutely agree with this. That is why this assessment was purely 100% based on compliments, Cap ship defenses and Compliment defenses. Tactics are something else entirely that will obviously modify the effects of every ship and thats what I want to get into now..... tactics and their affect on the original assessment .

 

 

Other then that do you find the above assessments to be pretty fair so we can talk about tactics?

 

Very well, other than that little comment the numbers look good, except something about the Bellator-class dreadnought's compliment seems...off....to me. May I ask where the source for 80 squadrons came from? Seems quite...extreme... considering that on standard even the Executor, being well over twice the Bellator's size, usually only carried around 144 fighter craft, but could be stocked up to 2,000+. It was very rare to have that many however, and that was Darth Vader's flagship, he gets whatever the heck he wants most of the time. Granted, it was never really intended to act as a carrier since it mostly was used for occupation, and yes even Venators carry more fighters than that, but a ship of that size casually carrying around 80 squadrons seems...suspicious...*Though, it does seem rather light on the ship-to-ship for a vessel of its size, so perhaps that is the reason...* I merely ask for a clarification and perhaps a reference to a source for this, most things I would accept at your word Tune, you know this from last time, but something as huge as this...gonna have to ask.

 

Side Note: Other than this concern over the Bellator-class dreadnought *btw, what is its name?!* The rest looks fair and fairly accurate. Such things as shape have to be considered, but that is just my technical side trying to get a word in. Ignore it, since even that considered it stands about the same as you explained it. Though, it would be amusing if some of the Basilisk droids were to board the Bellator-class dreadnought just to cause some havoc. Imagine walking into a hanger to see several of those things! :eek:

Edited July 3, 2014 by Silenceo

[tunewalker]

Very well, other than that little comment the numbers look good, except something about the Bellator-class dreadnought's compliment seems...off....to me. May I ask where the source for 80 squadrons came from? Seems quite...extreme... considering that on standard even the Executor, being well over twice the Bellator's size, usually only carried around 144 fighter craft, but could be stocked up to 2,000+. It was very rare to have that many however, and that was Darth Vader's flagship, he gets whatever the heck he wants most of the time. Granted, it was never really intended to act as a carrier since it mostly was used for occupation, and yes even Venators carry more fighters than that, but a ship of that size casually carrying around 80 squadrons seems...suspicious...*Though, it does seem rather light on the ship-to-ship for a vessel of its size, so perhaps that is the reason...* I merely ask for a clarification and perhaps a reference to a source for this, most things I would accept at your word Tune, you know this from last time, but something as huge as this...gonna have to ask.

 

Its cool the information is on post #8 from Lady Sourcing Ansel Hsiao a 3D Modelling artist who I was under the impression gave the ship its look and statistics. You are correct as well for its size, it seems light on cap ship offenses, it was bases on the Mandator I and II and was the sister ship to the Mandator III, its lack of big ship guns is what makes me feel it is INCREDIBLY likely that the number of fighters was accurate and its role was a Dreadnaught/ Carrier.

[Silenceo]

Its cool the information is on post #8 from Lady Sourcing Ansel Hsiao a 3D Modelling artist who I was under the impression gave the ship its look and statistics. You are correct as well for its size, it seems light on cap ship offenses, it was bases on the Mandator I and II and was the sister ship to the Mandator III, its lack of big ship guns is what makes me feel it is INCREDIBLY likely that the number of fighters was accurate and its role was a Dreadnaught/ Carrier.

 

560 fighter compliment is not 80 squadrons, it is 46 with about half a squadron left over. Still impressive, but just barely half of the terrifying 80 squadrons.

 

If the Acclamators have 0 fighter craft, then the number should be 2,240 fighter craft for the RR. Or about 186 squadrons with a bit of left over.

 

Side Note: The Bellator definitely is a carrier, just compared its weaponry to a Imperial-MKII and it seems that the MK-II actually has about the same number of turbolasers/ion cannons, and is just down the proton torpedo launchers. Given how large the Bellator is, its weapons are likely extremely thinly spread which makes its ship to ship firepower less than a MK-II! *Curse you technical side bringing up ship design vs weapon spread!* Granted, its shields are VASTLY stronger, but it indeed has to rely on its fighter craft to do most of its job.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Silenceo

[LadyKulvax]

Why would Nek Bwua'tu fall for such a basic tactic? he is smart enough to launch from a long range and yes he has faced long lrange turbolasers before, are we also forgetting that Daala could very well defect and if this happens it's all over in space.

 

Also I would like to point out the effectiveness of my fighters and ionizers, a squad of Ionizers can cripple capital ships, with trench run this would be an enormous advantage.

 

The TwinTail is also one of the best designed starfighters ever made if not the best, it's shield and hull can take many shots before it goes down and can mop up entire squads because of it's excellent maneuvering and has proven this on numerous occasions.

 

I would also as far as the ground battle goes point out that Mace Windu and Cody are both excellent strategists and Nomi is the least skilled of the three, but she does make up for it here:

 

"When the grand master arrived at a costly battle, the Republic instantly turned into a true army and the enemy would falter, demoralised and would make fatal mistakes, many times in many battles would she end the battle before even more lives were lost."- TotJ Comp

 

"The people of Galactic Center were extremely angry over the Sith invasion into the core worlds, devoid of faith in the Republic Military, the senate veered sharply to stamping out the protesters, but Nomi Sunrider had arrived and suddenly the people of the world were happy once again, even joyous, the senate were then forced to vote for a reconstruction of the Republic Military." - KotOR CG

 

The effectiveness of Clones enhanced by such strong battle meditation cannot be understated.

Edited July 3, 2014 by LadyKulvax

[tunewalker]

Actually that Is one assessment I didnt take into account now that I think about it, I dont know that it will change much, but with the more numerable ships each deploying fighters vs the ships with Large fighter bays the more numerable will be much faster at deploying its fighter force. As Such it will have an early fighter strength lead, but with the fighter defenses on the Republic ships I feel that lead will do little to nothing to help the Ascendancy actually take a lead in the fight unless it can do as you suggest with the long range turbo lasers from the Anakin or some other means. Such as concentrated fire on the Venator's from other ships knocking 1 or 2 out before their full compliment can be feilded.

 

But early on the Ascendancy will have little threat from fighters as it can field a larger amount in the short time, but will run out of ships to field much faster while the Republic just sends wave after wave.

 

The faster deployment could also severly curtail the Republics ability to truly damage the Ascendancy as any one who has played GSF knows while it may be a rough fight when all 8 vs 8 but when people trickle in little by little you can slow them down much greater then usual.

 

Because of the slower deployment this is likely what the Ascendancy will be dealing with wave after wave of overall more fighters that come in much less waves making the Ascendancy effectiveness at much greater then 2v1 they are dealing with.

 

How ever if Nek is good (and we know he is) he wont send people needlessly to die by sending wave after wave to their deaths and would likely wait for a substantial deployed force for its initial assault.

 

If the ascendacy gets impatient they could find themselves even more worse off as attacking the Republic ships with fighters is still suicide for the fighters thanks to the Republics fighter defenses and even early on the Republic wont be as much behind the ascendancy with fighters as the ascendancy will be later so the Republic has time as long as it doesnt lose any of its Venator's in deployment, and even after said "Loss" they could very well turn it around if they have deployed enough fighters.

[Silenceo]

Actually that Is one assessment I didnt take into account now that I think about it, I dont know that it will change much, but with the more numerable ships each deploying fighters vs the ships with Large fighter bays the more numerable will be much faster at deploying its fighter force. As Such it will have an early fighter strength lead, but with the fighter defenses on the Republic ships I feel that lead will do little to nothing to help the Ascendancy actually take a lead in the fight unless it can do as you suggest with the long range turbo lasers from the Anakin or some other means. Such as concentrated fire on the Venator's from other ships knocking 1 or 2 out before their full compliment can be feilded.

 

But early on the Ascendancy will have little threat from fighters as it can field a larger amount in the short time, but will run out of ships to field much faster while the Republic just sends wave after wave.

 

The faster deployment could also severly curtail the Republics ability to truly damage the Ascendancy as any one who has played GSF knows while it may be a rough fight when all 8 vs 8 but when people trickle in little by little you can slow them down much greater then usual.

 

Because of the slower deployment this is likely what the Ascendancy will be dealing with wave after wave of overall more fighters that come in much less waves making the Ascendancy effectiveness at much greater then 2v1 they are dealing with.

 

How ever if Nek is good (and we know he is) he wont send people needlessly to die by sending wave after wave to their deaths and would likely wait for a substantial deployed force for its initial assault.

 

If the ascendacy gets impatient they could find themselves even more worse off as attacking the Republic ships with fighters is still suicide for the fighters thanks to the Republics fighter defenses and even early on the Republic wont be as much behind the ascendancy with fighters as the ascendancy will be later so the Republic has time as long as it doesnt lose any of its Venator's in deployment, and even after said "Loss" they could very well turn it around if they have deployed enough fighters.

 

Very true, but again I bring up the Anakin Solo's long range turbo lasers, and even if Nek will not risk his Venators in such a deployment, they HAVE to engage and can not AFFORD to wait. If they do, the Anakin Solo will just slowly whittle them down. If they delay they might already be down a few ships, if they rush they likely could be caught in a bad situation due to fighter deployment speeds. That is one thing that the Empire actually got right, they tended to be able to deploy rather rapidly.

[tunewalker]

Why would Nek Bwua'tu fall for such a basic tactic? he is smart enough to launch from a long range and yes he has faced long lrange turbolasers before, are we also forgetting that Daala could very well defect and if this happens it's all over in space.

 

Also I would like to point out the effectiveness of my fighters and ionizers, a squad of Ionizers can cripple capital ships, with trench run this would be an enormous advantage.

 

The TwinTail is also one of the best designed starfighters ever made if not the best, it's shield and hull can take many shots before it goes down and can mop up entire squads because of it's excellent maneuvering and has proven this on numerous occasions.

 

I would also as far as the ground battle goes point out that Mace Windu and Cody are both excellent strategists and Nomi is the least skilled of the three, but she does make up for it here:

 

"When the grand master arrived at a costly battle, the Republic instantly turned into a true army and the enemy would falter, demoralised and would make fatal mistakes, many times in many battles would she end the battle before even more lives were lost."- TotJ Comp

 

"The people of Galactic Center were extremely angry over the Sith invasion into the core worlds, devoid of faith in the Republic Military, the senate veered sharply to stamping out the protesters, but Nomi Sunrider had arrived and suddenly the people of the world were happy once again, even joyous, the senate were then forced to vote for a reconstruction of the Republic Military." - KotOR CG

 

The effectiveness of Clones enhanced by such strong battle meditation cannot be understated.

 

I feel the Tie Defender is very much the twintail of its time, but it doesnt matter if it was the number of twintails you will have over his defenders will be WAY to numerous ultimately giving you the edge.

 

If we were to talk purely Ships compliments, Offenses and Defenses, i feel the republic takes the Edge

 

If we were to talk purely Tactical capabilities of Mandalorians vs Clones I would call that a draw

 

If we were to talk purely tactical Nek vs Daala we all know I believe Nek takes the cake

 

All in all I am very heavily leaning towards Republic for victory in space.

 

Edit: How ever this does not mean the Ascendancy can not pull a Hat trick.

Edited July 3, 2014 by tunewalker

[StarSquirrel]

Alright, I was out for the day but I'll provide a brief analysis on what my faction's strengths are.

 

The Ascendency is a force meant to follow a standard german tactic used in WWII. German units would send large forces to engage their opponents (be it walking into traps or springing them), then with the enemy pinned they'd have their faster agile forces swing to their opponent's flank and crush them.

 

The Massassi are masters of swarm tactics and have a solid numerical and physical advantage, they are also tougher than what the clones are used to and they have the benefit of being native to this environment (an advantage the clones have repeatedly struggled to defeat). They also have 22 Tarentateks which are well-known Jedi killers, and the Jedi only outnumber these 2-1. With only 50 Jedi this is a massive advantage for the Ascendency considering the Tarentatek's can be replaced). The Sun Guard are also Jedi-killers and their War Droids allow a better view of the battle for tactical decisions. Their enemies have little that can handle them in the vehicle department, and the Unstable Terrain Transport is in particular an easy machine to outflank and decimate from the air. Also note that of the Juggernauts in service, the Ascendency's model is more advanced and benefits the Massassi in that they can provide cover to allow the Massassi to get in close and absolutely butcher the clones in hand-to-hand (in which case the clones don't stand a chance)

 

As for the leadership, Mandalore the Indomitable is a master strategist in both ground and naval tactics. Maul is a devastating opponent on the ground. Daala and Nek are actually pretty close in naval skill but prefer different methods, and since Daala has strength on her side and Nek doesn't have the option of retreat, her direct method could prove to be devastating. Yavin lacks an asteroid belt or similar feature to take advantage of (which is a favorite tactic of Nek's) so he is out of his element fighting a battle that from the start is stacked against him.

 

Also, despite the fighter's numerical advantage the quality is easily in the Ascendancy's favor. The Defender and Aleph are pinnacles of Imperial engineering while the Resistance's force's are more "decent" than exceptional. The Ionizer is essentially a weak version of what the Aleph can do and the Aleph appears to be much tougher.

 

The intent of the Ascendency fleet is to be fast (which is it), tough (an attribute it has in spades), and lethal (again, it has it) so that despite the enemy, it can come hard and fast with enough firepower to destroy the enemy in a single blow. The Resistance fleet would prefer to fight at a distance and engage slowly, but the Ascendency merely needs to charge them and they can take any beating their fighters can deliver before closing for the kill.

 

In organizations, Rothana and Mandal Motors are fairly close and have massive industrial capabilities, so the Juggernauts and Basilisk War Droid numbers will continue to grow throughout the match making a long-term fight almost impossible for the Resistance. In return the Republic intel will have a hard time infiltrating sith-dominated Massassi and fanatical Sun Guard and Kuat Drive yards can't exactly supply them with much in the way of land-based vehicles so they have no long-term strategy.

 

Honestly, the leadership battle has already been decided here as far as Nomi is concerned. The Massassi are amped by the Dark Nexus as is Maul and Kun. The one time Sunrider faced Kun with several powerful jedi, he walked in, immobilized them, killed the master and walked out untouched. Nomi could only beg Quel-Droma and even then she failed. Even with hundreds of Jedi she failed to kill Kun let alone with 52.

 

And that leads to Kun. With Sith magic he could freeze a room full of powerful Jedi and he could use force flight. He also could create Tarentateks, the known Jedi killers I mentioned before. With more of those appearing every day, even Mace Windu would have trouble with that.

 

Maul btw, is an expert at ambushes and leads from the front. He'd help prevent the Resistance from ambushing or severely damaging the Ascendency forces in an ambush. He'd also be invaluable as a scout (something he is known for) and as a rival to Mace with the help of a few Tarentateks.

 

Location, location, location. Everything about this map screams advantage to the Ascendency. Between the Dark Side Nexuses (in more than just one temple I might add), the fact Massassi are native to this planet/environment, and that Kun gets his old haunt as his base of operations makes him almost untouchable.

 

Mandalore will enjoy having the Sun Guard and his Basilisk War Droids (which he is an absolute expert at using) to rip apart the Resistance while Kun relaxes in a well fortified and extremely amplifying base.

 

Yes Rayla, I designed this faction to blast someone like you out of the water and Beni's map choice makes this faction even more awesome

[tunewalker]

560 fighter compliment is not 80 squadrons, it is 46 with about half a squadron left over. Still impressive, but just barely half of the terrifying 80 squadrons.

 

If the Acclamators have 0 fighter craft, then the number should be 2,240 fighter craft for the RR. Or about 186 squadrons with a bit of left over.

 

Side Note: The Bellator definitely is a carrier, just compared its weaponry to a Imperial-MKII and it seems that the MK-II actually has about the same number of turbolasers/ion cannons, and is just down the proton torpedo launchers. Given how large the Bellator is, its weapons are likely extremely thinly spread which makes its ship to ship firepower less than a MK-II! *Curse you technical side bringing up ship design vs weapon spread!* Granted, its shields are VASTLY stronger, but it indeed has to rely on its fighter craft to do most of its job.

 

you sure 12 fighters per squad. 120 fighers for 10 40= 480, Oh you are right I think I messed something up one moment

 

 

Ok numbers have been edited to be more accurate, BUT looking at it overall assessment did not change.

Edited July 3, 2014 by tunewalker

[tunewalker]

Very true, but again I bring up the Anakin Solo's long range turbo lasers, and even if Nek will not risk his Venators in such a deployment, they HAVE to engage and can not AFFORD to wait. If they do, the Anakin Solo will just slowly whittle them down. If they delay they might already be down a few ships, if they rush they likely could be caught in a bad situation due to fighter deployment speeds. That is one thing that the Empire actually got right, they tended to be able to deploy rather rapidly.

 

Yes they have to engage but their FIGHTERS dont have to engage for a while they can stay at enough of a range to keep their main guns on the enemy and only allow the enemies main guns on them both doing some damage to each other but overall each holding out, until the Republic deploys enough fighters to send enough in to distract and let Ionizers disable some of the Imperial ships.

 

With that they can turn the battle, but yes this is not a cut and dry, its going to take tactical ingenuity on both sides to win this one.

[StarSquirrel]

Daala and Nek again, yay! I will point out once again that Naala strongly dislikes Force Sensitives being in power. Unfortunately, in this Kaggath, both sides have that. However, she's defected before to the Light Side/Republic, and with Nek there to coax her, I don't doubt she'll defect.

 

The terentatek are going to be a big issue for the PT Jedi. They are basically immune to the Force powers common of the PT era and are literally named Jedi Killers. In fact, Jedi who went to fight them had to rely solely on martial skills, which it sounds like these PT are not stellar at.

 

Those are my initial impressions. Looks like a good Kaggath to kick things off.

 

I'd like to point out, this is Daala circa Pallaeon's death. She and Nek aren't lovers yet (iirc) and even if they are, Daala never worked for Jedi or liked them (even going so far as to have them hunted). Sith, on the other hand she respected more so. She never defected to Jedi but she did willingly serve Sith.

 

Now Mandalore vs Sun Guard I saw earlier, well remember they are fanatically loyal to the Sith so they'll willingly obey Mandalore if Kun or Maul say to. Add to that the fact that it won't feel odd for Mandalore since the Sun Guard are very similar in level of skill and training, meaning it is a suitable replacements. Despite their rivalry, they respect one another as warriors. Also note that the Mandalorians who fought the Sun Guard did so during the time they were fighting the Sith. In this case Mandalore the Indomitable is fighting with the Sith, and a Sith he's worked with before so there isn't a problem here.

 

And the Terentakek's were most certainly chosen for just this occasion.

[Silenceo]

you sure 12 fighters per squad. 120 fighers for 10 40= 480, Oh you are right I think I messed something up one moment

 

 

Ok numbers have been edited to be more accurate, BUT looking at it overall assessment did not change.

 

I know it won't change the overall numbers disparity, but small things like that tend to bother my "technical" side that I keep trying to keep in check... Though, with that change and due to the speed of deployment, it is more likely it seems for the Ascendancy to be able to capitalize on the deployment speeds, its flagships long range, and the speed of the Kyramud-type battleship's. Seriously, for a ship that size that speed is majorly impressive!

 

As Star said, if Daala uses the speed of these battleships, she should be able to "Flank and Gank" a Venator or two before they fully deploy, having the Anakin Skywalker and 2 other MK-II's focusing on the Bellator with the remaining 4 MK-II's to hit the other 2 Venators to stop the fighters from taking flight. 2 MK-II's concentrating fire on a Venator will likely make quick work of it, they are after all focused on ship to ship combat.

 

As for the Acclamators, during this phase they likely would pick off a quite a few of the Kyra's, but if the Ascendancy succeeds in eliminating the Venators before they can deploy even half of their compliment, the RR will be in serious trouble. Its times like this you wish for Mon Cal troll shields...

 

If the Venators fall, and even if 2-3 of the MK-II's fall as well as most of the Kyra's, there would still be plenty of firepower left to cripple the Bellator as the Acclamators are dealt with. By this time the majority of the Belators compliment is likely deployed and starts fighting back. Likely causing another MK-II or 2 to go critical. But it would likely be too late to save the fleet.

 

Though, there are numerous ways the battle in space could go down, and I am no expert on Nek's strategies, which would likely prevent such a scenario, so there are many holes in this suggested plan. It is merely a starting point, though I re-iterate, it is unwise for the RR to delay the battle on the case of deploying more fighters due to the Anakin Solo's ability to essentially snipe over time. Granted it would not be instant kills, but it would be plenty to injure or disable portions of ships hit.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Silenceo

[LadyKulvax]

Alright, I was out for the day but I'll provide a brief analysis on what my faction's strengths are.

 

The Ascendency is a force meant to follow a standard german tactic used in WWII. German units would send large forces to engage their opponents (be it walking into traps or springing them), then with the enemy pinned they'd have their faster agile forces swing to their opponent's flank and crush them.

 

The Massassi are masters of swarm tactics and have a solid numerical and physical advantage, they are also tougher than what the clones are used to and they have the benefit of being native to this environment (an advantage the clones have repeatedly struggled to defeat). They also have 22 Tarentateks which are well-known Jedi killers, and the Jedi only outnumber these 2-1. With only 50 Jedi this is a massive advantage for the Ascendency considering the Tarentatek's can be replaced). The Sun Guard are also Jedi-killers and their War Droids allow a better view of the battle for tactical decisions. Their enemies have little that can handle them in the vehicle department, and the Unstable Terrain Transport is in particular an easy machine to outflank and decimate from the air. Also note that of the Juggernauts in service, the Ascendency's model is more advanced and benefits the Massassi in that they can provide cover to allow the Massassi to get in close and absolutely butcher the clones in hand-to-hand (in which case the clones don't stand a chance)

 

As for the leadership, Mandalore the Indomitable is a master strategist in both ground and naval tactics. Maul is a devastating opponent on the ground. Daala and Nek are actually pretty close in naval skill but prefer different methods, and since Daala has strength on her side and Nek doesn't have the option of retreat, her direct method could prove to be devastating. Yavin lacks an asteroid belt or similar feature to take advantage of (which is a favorite tactic of Nek's) so he is out of his element fighting a battle that from the start is stacked against him.

 

Also, despite the fighter's numerical advantage the quality is easily in the Ascendancy's favor. The Defender and Aleph are pinnacles of Imperial engineering while the Resistance's force's are more "decent" than exceptional. The Ionizer is essentially a weak version of what the Aleph can do and the Aleph appears to be much tougher.

 

The intent of the Ascendency fleet is to be fast (which is it), tough (an attribute it has in spades), and lethal (again, it has it) so that despite the enemy, it can come hard and fast with enough firepower to destroy the enemy in a single blow. The Resistance fleet would prefer to fight at a distance and engage slowly, but the Ascendency merely needs to charge them and they can take any beating their fighters can deliver before closing for the kill.

 

In organizations, Rothana and Mandal Motors are fairly close and have massive industrial capabilities, so the Juggernauts and Basilisk War Droid numbers will continue to grow throughout the match making a long-term fight almost impossible for the Resistance. In return the Republic intel will have a hard time infiltrating sith-dominated Massassi and fanatical Sun Guard and Kuat Drive yards can't exactly supply them with much in the way of land-based vehicles so they have no long-term strategy.

 

Honestly, the leadership battle has already been decided here as far as Nomi is concerned. The Massassi are amped by the Dark Nexus as is Maul and Kun. The one time Sunrider faced Kun with several powerful jedi, he walked in, immobilized them, killed the master and walked out untouched. Nomi could only beg Quel-Droma and even then she failed. Even with hundreds of Jedi she failed to kill Kun let alone with 52.

 

And that leads to Kun. With Sith magic he could freeze a room full of powerful Jedi and he could use force flight. He also could create Tarentateks, the known Jedi killers I mentioned before. With more of those appearing every day, even Mace Windu would have trouble with that.

 

Maul btw, is an expert at ambushes and leads from the front. He'd help prevent the Resistance from ambushing or severely damaging the Ascendency forces in an ambush. He'd also be invaluable as a scout (something he is known for) and as a rival to Mace with the help of a few Tarentateks.

 

Location, location, location. Everything about this map screams advantage to the Ascendency. Between the Dark Side Nexuses (in more than just one temple I might add), the fact Massassi are native to this planet/environment, and that Kun gets his old haunt as his base of operations makes him almost untouchable.

 

Mandalore will enjoy having the Sun Guard and his Basilisk War Droids (which he is an absolute expert at using) to rip apart the Resistance while Kun relaxes in a well fortified and extremely amplifying base.

 

Yes Rayla, I designed this faction to blast someone like you out of the water and Beni's map choice makes this faction even more awesome

 

Massassi are also pathetic when it comes to facing a shooting battle, they are tough yes but they fail hard when met with serious firepower, once Sadow's illusions were dispelled the Massassi got SLAUGHTERED in droves because the Republic had a huge advantage... they just shot them all.

 

The XR-85 has a large particle cannon that isn't only meant for taking out squads of men or vehicles but entire buildings.

 

The UT-AT can take perfect advantage of high terrain, ANY terrain which makes Yavin IV perfect for their long range cannons.

 

The Massassi swarm might be larger but it is hopelessly outgunned here.

 

Oh and if Terentateks are so terrifying why is it nearly every time they managed to kill a Jedi they almost always had a padawan/knight mix up and have actually been killed by far inferior opponents, remember a certain Sith Admiral everyone?

 

With Nomi's battle meditation then creating kill zones should be easy for the Republic, you are going to charge in swarm directly at the repeating fire of squad killing particle cannons, the turrets of the UT-AT and the collective firepower of a regiment of the Third Systems Army led by the strategic and tactical mastery of Commander Cody and Mace Windu all amped with Battle Meditation, basucally making them perfectly accurate highly effective Clone Troopers.

 

Oh and Kun cannot freeze Jedi, he could only mass stun the senate.

 

You are also taking Nomi Sunrider at one of her earliest points, this is GRAND MASTER Sunrider who is far more developed and powerful than any of her early iterations.

 

Also I still feel Wall of Light will work, you don't need an entire array of goodie two shoes Jedi, only Jedi to support Sunrider who will channel it herself.

 

Mace Windu and Nomi Sunrider vs Exar Kun and Darth Maul(TPM)

 

Nomi Sunrider could not obly sever Maul off from the Force she can battle meld with Windu whilst he is amped fighting Maul or Kun.

 

This would be an epic display of Vaapad.

 

Also only in the temples themselves would the Massassi, Kun or Maul be amped this is stated outright by Kun.

Edited July 3, 2014 by LadyKulvax

[LadyKulvax]

Also where the hell are you guys getting the idea Venators deploy slowly? they are designed to deploy much faster than the MK-IIs are.

[tunewalker]

Also where the hell are you guys getting the idea Venators deploy slowly? they are designed to deploy much faster than the MK-IIs are.

 

your forgetting something, its not a 1v1 comparison its a 1v4 comparison with this about

 

7 Imp II and 13 Kyr all able to deploy vs 4 Venators and 1 Bellator.

 

also "the bow of a Venator could open up to reveal a half kilometer long dorsal flight deck. This flight deck enabled the Venator-class to rapidly launch hundreds of fighters. However, the slow opening and closing of the armored bow doors could leave the ship extremely vulnerable."

 

So yes they can rapidly deploy, but during rapid deployment they are vulneralbe. If they decide to opt out of rapid deploy they arent vulnerable but will deploy massively slower.

 

So 1v1 yes the Venator deploys massively slower, but thats not what we are dealing with here. Though after looking at it, its seems the deploy equal speed overall. Remember not 1v1 deployment speed here.

 

also they will still be vulnerable, even if Nek knows this he will need to likely use the acclamators as shields to allow for Venator's to not be vulnerable (which as far as I can tell is the plan ) but ya at that point every advantage is for the Republic.

Edited July 3, 2014 by tunewalker

[StarSquirrel]

Why would Nek Bwua'tu fall for such a basic tactic? he is smart enough to launch from a long range and yes he has faced long lrange turbolasers before, are we also forgetting that Daala could very well defect and if this happens it's all over in space.

 

Also I would like to point out the effectiveness of my fighters and ionizers, a squad of Ionizers can cripple capital ships, with trench run this would be an enormous advantage.

Daala will not defect, I made that clear in a previous post. I btw, was the one who made the Daala defection argument in my last Kaggath and I can assure you, as an avid fan of Nek's and Daala's she hates the Jedi far more. She might try and preserve Nek's life, but more than likely she'll feel betrayed that he'd side with the people she hates most in the galaxy. My faction last round held Jedi who were more grey and that she would better relate to, plus she had Boba (a friendly face to her) as a bonus. She has no benefits aside from Nek in joining the Republic, and in fact she hates the very IDEA of a Republic. Take your pick, she has a lot of reasons to not join the Republic and stay with the Ascendency.

 

Ionizers have very little on them in their Wookieepedia article and I don't know much about them otherwise but what I do know makes me think they are heavier fighters with less powerful armaments than their counterparts in the Ascendency fleet. They'd be sitting ducks with less power to show for it.

 

The TwinTail is also one of the best designed starfighters ever made if not the best, it's shield and hull can take many shots before it goes down and can mop up entire squads because of it's excellent maneuvering and has proven this on numerous occasions.

 

The Aleph, Kimogila, and Defender are even tougher fighters and the Defender is considered the most advanced fighter the Empire ever built. Heck, the Aleph's shields alone are extremely powerful and the hull can take many shots before failing. Oh, and each of my fighters have more than proven themselves across a vast period of time.

I would also as far as the ground battle goes point out that Mace Windu and Cody are both excellent strategists and Nomi is the least skilled of the three, but she does make up for it here:

 

"When the grand master arrived at a costly battle, the Republic instantly turned into a true army and the enemy would falter, demoralised and would make fatal mistakes, many times in many battles would she end the battle before even more lives were lost."- TotJ Comp

 

"The people of Galactic Center were extremely angry over the Sith invasion into the core worlds, devoid of faith in the Republic Military, the senate veered sharply to stamping out the protesters, but Nomi Sunrider had arrived and suddenly the people of the world were happy once again, even joyous, the senate were then forced to vote for a reconstruction of the Republic Military." - KotOR CG

 

The effectiveness of Clones enhanced by such strong battle meditation cannot be understated.

Nor can the fanatical ruthlessness of Sun Guard troops and Massassi Warriors amped by Kun who is in turn amped by the Dark Side Nexus he's sitting on.

 

There is no one to deomoralize. You can't demoralize fanatics and monsters lol...

 

Also, between Cody and Maul it is obviously Maul who tops that one not to mention if they met Maul would butcher Cody and Cody would merely follow Windu. Windu could dominate Mandalore in a fight, but his tactics aren't brilliant or anything and he's never faced anything like the terentateks. Mandalore, however, has the advantage of leading a force very similar to what he's used to on a world his forces have a terrain knowledge advantage on, and he has better equipment for monitoring the battle (War Droids). Not only all that, but he is adept at combating Jedi, which is what he is doing here.

Edited July 3, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[LadyKulvax]

[/color] Daala will not defect, I made that clear in a previous post. I btw, was the one who made the Daala defect argument in my last Kaggath and I can assure you, as an avid fan of Nek's and Daala's she hates the Jedi far more. She might try and preserve Nek's life, but more than likely she'll feel betrayed that he'd side with the people she hates most in the galaxy. My faction last round held Jedi who were more grey and that she would better relate to, plus she had Boba (a friendly face to her) as a bonus. She has no benefits aside from Nek in joining the Republic, and in fact she hates the very IDEA of a Republic. Take your pick, she has a lot of reasons to not join the Republic and stay with the Ascendency.

 

Ionizers have very little on them in their Wookieepedia article and I don't know much about them otherwise but what I do know makes me think they are heavier fighters with less powerful armaments than their counterparts in the Ascendency fleet. They'd be sitting ducks with less power to show for it.

 

[/color]

 

The Aleph, Kimogila, and Defender are even tougher fighters and the Defender is considered the most advanced fighter the Empire ever built. Heck, the Aleph's shields alone are extremely powerful and the hull can take many shots before failing. Oh, and each of my fighters have more than proven themselves across a vast period of time.

 

Nor can the fanatical ruthlessness of Sun Guard troops and Massassi Warriors amped by Kun who is in turn amped by the Dark Side Nexus he's sitting on.

 

There is no one to deomoralize. You can't demoralize fanatics and monsters lol...

 

Also, between Cody and Maul it is obviously Maul who tops that one not to mention if they met Maul would butcher Cody and Cody would merely follow Windu. Windu could dominate Mandalore in a fight, but his tactics aren't brilliant or anything and he's never faced anything like the terentateks. Mandalore, however, has the advantage of leading a force very similar to what he's used to on a world his forces have a terrain knowledge advantage on, and he has better equipment for monitoring the battle (War Droids). Not only all that, but he is adept at combating Jedi, which is what he is doing here.

 

Then you clearly haven't read up on the Ionizers they have medium ion cannons and ion bombs which can cripple an entire section of a capital ship, when an entire squadron makes a run the capital ship is done for.

 

Erm did you even read the TwinTail's article, they were extremely durable, very quick and had the firepower of corvettes.

 

Even so the battle meditation will make the Clone troopers who are already a much better trained and effective force even more deadly, the Republic has a massive advantage in ranged firepower here, each of those 34 Tank Droids are dropping entire squads, and with your swarm tactic the Massassi will be dropping in droves.

 

Oh and the Massassi could be demoralised, when Sadow's connection to the battle of Coruscant was cutoff they lacked direction and many started to run away, they got massacred.

 

The advantage of Wall of Light here cannot be understated, it could potentially cripple Maul here and cut Kun off from his warriors

 

Also Maul (TPM) is a better tactician than Cody? the most decorated Clone in the Grand Army next to Rex? what? as far as I remember Maul by that point has never even led an organised force in such a major battle.

 

Mace Windu is a much better tactician than you give him credit for, Windu was seen by the CIS as one of the Republic's top generals and was even noted by Kenobi as one of the best minds in the field.

Edited July 3, 2014 by LadyKulvax

[StarSquirrel]

Massassi are also pathetic when it comes to facing a shooting battle, they are tough yes but they fail hard when met with serious firepower, once Sadow's illusions were dispelled the Massassi got SLAUGHTERED in droves because the Republic had a huge advantage... they just shot them all.

 

The XR-85 has a large particle cannon that isn't only meant for taking out squads of men or vehicles but entire buildings.

 

The UT-AT can take perfect advantage of high terrain, ANY terrain which makes Yavin IV perfect for their long range cannons.

 

The Massassi swarm might be larger but it is hopelessly outgunned here.

 

Oh and if Terentateks are so terrifying why is it nearly every time they managed to kill a Jedi they almost always had a padawan/knight mix up and have actually been killed by far inferior opponents, remember a certain Sith Admiral everyone?

 

With Nomi's battle meditation then creating kill zones should be easy for the Republic, you are going to charge in swarm directly at the repeating fire of squad killing particle cannons, the turrets of the UT-AT and the collective firepower of a regiment of the Third Systems Army led by the strategic and tactical mastery of Commander Cody and Mace Windu all amped with Battle Meditation, basucally making them perfectly accurate highly effective Clone Troopers.

 

Oh and Kun cannot freeze Jedi, he could only mass stun the senate.

 

You are also taking Nomi Sunrider at one of her earliest points, this is GRAND MASTER Sunrider who is far more developed and powerful than any of her early iterations.

 

Also I still feel Wall of Light will work, you don't need an entire array of goodie two shoes Jedi, only Jedi to support Sunrider who will channel it herself.

 

Mace Windu and Nomi Sunrider vs Exar Kun and Darth Maul(TPM)

 

Nomi Sunrider could not obly sever Maul off from the Force she can battle meld with Windu whilst he is amped fighting Maul or Kun.

 

This would be an epic display of Vaapad.

 

Also only in the temples themselves would the Massassi, Kun or Maul be amped this is stated outright by Kun.

 

Massassi have their own ranged weapons, they just need to get closer to use them. Even so, they are deadly accurate. The battle you mention was more a result of a smaller force taking on a larger one with half or more of the force being made up of illusions that vanish half way through. In this instance there will be no massive strategic disadvantage hitting them half-way through the battle.

 

Also I'd like to see the UT-AT find an advantageous position that isn't totally exposed to the Basilisk War Droids and reveals their position so obviously. I'd also like to see them hit their own men when the Massassi close to melee range with the clones (kinda useless then). And I'll add that they are much harder to replace than the War Droids, so a fanatical Sun Guard careening into a UT-AT would end that threat pretty darn quick wouldn't it...

 

Also, who says the Massassi are stupid enough to run into cannon fire while exposed and play directly into the Republics hand? I mean, Maul/Mandalore/Kun aren't dumb... The fact you seem to think so is not only biased but makes for a pretty pathetic argument.

 

Remember, Yavin is a forested planet full of wildlife. The Massassi know the terrain and can follow complex battle instructions. Also it is well known that clones are absolutely pathetic in hand-to-hand combat. If the Massassi get even close to them (and with the Juggernauts coming they most certainly will) the clones stand no chance. Also the Juggernauts can drive at 99 mph (160kph for our European friends) which is easily fast enough to close the clone's range in a thick jungle. Besides, the clones have historically had trouble on forested planets when their enemies were good at using terrain (Umbarra, Felucia etc...).

 

Now also to mention, the Terentatek's were used widely during the war. Just because plot-armored individuals could do it, there is still the fact that they are cited as killing many Jedi (alone) and that it required certain tactics for the average jedi to bring them down.

 

Also, clones are hardly known for being accurate... they rely on their enemy's being in large groups otherwise they are about average.

 

As for Kun's Freeze, so then he freezes every Clone guard in the building and kills Nomi while Maul keeps Windu busy. After which he's essentially broken the republic and if he falls back and has his army kill Windu there isn't much that can be done at that point...

 

Wall of Light is a powerful ability, there is no way in hell 52 Jedi regardless of how powerful (unless they're all Grand Masters or something) can build what it took hundreds of jedi to do. And even then, Kun can just suck the life from his Massassi like last time and become a spirit. Then he just fries Nomi in her sleep (he nearly got Luke remember? That is how powerful he is in Spirit form) In that case he wins control of Yavin regardless of the WoL.

 

As for Nomi & Windu vs Kun and Maul? Wouldn't do Nomi any favors even with their teamwork... Also note, Maul and Kun are masters of the most unpredictable and relentless form there is, Juyo. Yeah Nomi wouldn't stand a chance even with Windu.

 

Besides, Kun wouldn't let it come to that. If they came after him he'd split them up then take each down individually.

 

Also note, he is an accomplished duelist and his Force Blast could just vaporize Windu if he isn't anticipating it (which considering Windu has never seen that before is very much an option...)

 

Also, if Kun is amped while in the temple and he is amping the Massassi (which he is known to do) then the Massassi will feed off Kun's increased power as well.

 

And finally, Windu's Vaapad will not serve him against Terentateks since they can't be affected but his feedback, eliminating it's major advantage. With even just 2-3 of these things coming at him, he's not likely to make it.