Capital Ship Turrets ideas to improve nub experience?

[Fractalsponge]

serious question: have you ever been in a boxing ring or on the mats at a martial arts tournament?

you learn a lot about yourself in those situations.

two lessons, amongst many but two I learned that translate directly to the subject at hand:

 

1: no-one ever improved by fighting people they can crush.

2: running from a fight does not make you a better fighter.

 

That's not quite a good metaphor for GSF.

 

1: Yes, 1v1, but if it's you against many people you can crush, you'll improve your kill efficiency, evasion, power management.

2: In GSF, learning to run away is the first thing you should be learning. Learn to survive in the environment, and then work on lethality. It'll make you a better pilot, let you learn the maps, and learn how to maximize your ships' abilities (try dogfighting in a gunship or bomber, for example, or survive will doing damage in an outnumbered scout).

[dancezwithnubz]

That's not quite a good metaphor for GSF.

 

1: Yes, 1v1, but if it's you against many people you can crush, you'll improve your kill efficiency, evasion, power management.

2: In GSF, learning to run away is the first thing you should be learning. Learn to survive in the environment, and then work on lethality. It'll make you a better pilot, let you learn the maps, and learn how to maximize your ships' abilities (try dogfighting in a gunship or bomber, for example, or survive will doing damage in an outnumbered scout).

 

you misunderstand the lesson young padawan.

 

you can dance around in the ring as much as you like, that's a large part of the tactics of any fight. Using terrain to your advantage is always a recommended course of action.

 

"running" in this lesson means fleeing the ring and relying on security guards to defeat your opponent.

[RatPoison]

you misunderstand the lesson young padawan.

 

you can dance around in the ring as much as you like, that's a large part of the tactics of any fight. Using terrain to your advantage is always a recommended course of action.

 

"running" in this lesson means fleeing the ring and relying on security guards to defeat your opponent.

 

When you can't make a point, make it about somebody? At any rate, your metaphor has little to do with GSF.

 

This isn't a boxing or whatever match in which people are fighting one on one. This isn't also a scenario when people and matches are being arranged with even remotely even/fair teams in the greater number of matches. At a point and time when the complaint is over spawn camping, and the gross abuse of novice pilots in lopsided matches, etc... your metaphor is without point. This is because first, the novice doesn't learn anything other than what it's like to get their teeth kicked in, and second and perhaps the only mildly pertinent part of your comparison is that the teeth kicking team gets nothing out of the experience. But since there is nothing to gain by the teeth kicking team regardless of cap ship turrets on or off in this scenario, giving the novices safe ground is by far the greater benefit to the game and population.

 

From your exhaustion zone idea, it is more like you wish to have a bunch of novices shot at a line of ships waiting just outside to pummel them which is virtually no different than the current scenario. I suppose they would get forced into burning engine pools to get out of the exhaustion zone... since you know... they'd have to spawn more than 15000 into the exhaustion zone to be outside the range of gunships to begin with... oh, but don't forget there is no cover out there either, so all that fancy flying and using ones cover you talked about doesn't really apply either.

 

...

 

So no this is nothing like a boxing match in these lopsided matches... it's more like a beat down in the back alley, and so yes... there should be a big brother to step in and break it up. Otherwise... nobody has a chance to learn anything new.

 

I was fine with people using the cap ships to their advantage in matches they were losing... we pushed them to that point, and by all rights, it was very easy to holler out to the team to pull back. I dare to say you'd have no such luck in moderating the behavior of the inevitable victors in a match such as what this thread aims to discuss. But I suppose that's just an opinion too.

 

The only entertaining idea is people spawning being immune to damage until either a timer expires, or they engage an enemy themselves (or both). But somehow, I see this mechanic being a wasted effort as experienced pilots will get chased till they fire or the timer expires, and novices will simply continue to be trigger happy dying in much the same way. In the end... what cap ships stop the most of is coordinated groups abusing no safe zone... in the vast majority of matches, its not an extreme issue for anything more than when a team is made up of all (spare 1 or 2 vets) first time fliers. If nobody wants to help foster a better scenario for fresh pilots... then so be it, leave the situation as it is.

[dancezwithnubz]

i really hope you're simply being obstreperous because that's some seriously powerful bull***** that only holds true if people never learn from their experience.

 

my counterpoint is simple: having a known, immutable "safe zone" in any mode of the game, is ultimately good for no-one.

 

Experienced players will find a way to use any 'safe zone' to their advantage, regardless if it's as the game designers intended.

 

Gamers are the MacGyvers of murder.

 

There is NOTHING. no conceivable scenario that gamers won't seek to turn to their advantage once a potential advantage becomes clear.

 

Having a place on the map where you can hide and anyone pursuing you will instantly die certainly qualifies as a "potential advantage", no?

 

By throwing noobs out into the slaughterhouse (which they are already, regardless of cap ship turrets), the lessons quickly simplify down to a simple: kill &/or get killed as opposed to Stay here and Live or venture out of this Safe Zone and Die.

 

I get what your saying, I really do. I also understand you're flat out full of it if you think that rubbish actually applies.

[RatPoison]

i really hope you're simply being obstreperous because that's some seriously powerful bull***** that only holds true if people never learn from their experience.

 

my counterpoint is simple: having a known, immutable "safe zone" in any mode of the game, is ultimately good for no-one.

 

Experienced players will find a way to use any 'safe zone' to their advantage, regardless if it's as the game designers intended.

 

Gamers are the MacGyvers of murder.

 

There is NOTHING. no conceivable scenario that gamers won't seek to turn to their advantage once a potential advantage becomes clear.

 

Having a place on the map where you can hide and anyone pursuing you will instantly die certainly qualifies as a "potential advantage", no?

 

By throwing noobs out into the slaughterhouse (which they are already, regardless of cap ship turrets), the lessons quickly simplify down to a simple: kill &/or get killed as opposed to Stay here and Live or venture out of this Safe Zone and Die.

 

I get what your saying, I really do. I also understand you're flat out full of it if you think that rubbish actually applies.

 

Oh, so the spawn point and technical safe zone in the pvp ground game should be removed? Certainly this will lead to all sorts of hilarity. But I digress... there are differences between the two... first being that the safe zones in the ground game have desertion timers, and second... short of arenas, the ground game is objective based pvp which is not what we're talking about in regards to GSF. Of course, that leaves arenas which for all intents and purposes... unlike GSF resets after everybody is killed thus always allowing people to get their feet wet rather than spawning and dying in the same instant.

 

So ... lets talk about some ********... I didn't have to go far at all to usurp your idea.

 

Moving on... experienced players taking advantage of the proposed change I made? Perhaps you should go back and check it out again... The turrets switch on when the match becomes lopsided for the losing team... they turn off if it isn't. So if your fear is the winning team hiding behind their cap ships... then that's already been abated by design. If your fear is that the turrets would decide the match, if you read the suggestion, you'd see that isn't possible given a wide enough buffer between turrets on and off.

 

So... who has the advantage here? The novices given that you or some other pilot is stupid enough to fly into a stationary death zone. Are you really going to cry about that and wave your true colors? Because if I understand your logic correctly, you should be learning from your mistake and adapting.

 

I find it hilarious that rather than discuss points you feel it necessary to call ******** and rubbish as opposed to countering with something more than a deflection.

 

I get it, you can't deal with the reality that novices get trashed and opt out of GSF, you can't deal with the reality that in my suggestion, the winning team still wins. I get that you would rather beat up on a bunch of novices which even in the era of cap ship turrets didn't hide behind them and wait for the match to end anyway. What the turrets did was prevent *********s like us from camping on a spawn and making an already crappy match crappier.

 

If you've nothing to suggest and no alternative details to offer beyond grandiose misrepresentations and blatant avoidance of the point being made, then I see no point in pursuing the conversation further. You've made your point... you want to slaughter novices with no strings attached because that'll learn em real good... (don't play GSF).

Edited July 7, 2014 by RatPoison

[Gerfaut]

The problem with cap ship turrets is that they force ship choice. The only ships with weapons that can outrange turrets are gunships. If cap ship turrets were put back into TDM, they would force everybody to play gunships in order to contribute and avoid being flagged as inactive (for lack of opponents to hit) when the opposing team retreats to the safety of their cap ships and refuses to come out.

 

Back when capital ship turrets were operating in TDM, it had pretty much become the meta on the Harbinger server: one team would just all choose gunships and spend the entire game sniping from the safety of their capital ship. Players on the opposing team had 4 choices: 1) play a gunship, 2) play a non-gunship and be marked inactive for not being able to hit anybody on the opposing team, and get no requisition for the game, 3) play a non-gunship and make a suicide run on the cap ship every 2 minutes to reset the inactivity timer, and hope to at least hit someone to get an assist before dying to the turrets, or 4) leave the game.

 

It wasn't newbies who were doing this, it was experienced players. When I played with a premade, this tactic was used against us almost every time. When I solo-queued, there would often be someone on my team who would say at the start of the game: "let's all get in gunships and wait for them here at the cap ship, let them come to us." It was the most predominant tactic in TDM and made for excruciatingly boring and frustrating games. TDM was a broken game mode.

 

Even if turrets were only reactivated when one team has a 10-point lead (or whatever number was chosen), it would force players to mostly play gunships in TDM, especially against weaker teams, since that would be the only way to get kills once the turrets become active and the weaker team starts huddling at their cap ships.

 

Imagine the following situation (using a 10-pt lead as trigger for turret activation):

 

At the start of the game, both teams leave their cap ship and meet approximately in the middle of the map. Team A is much stronger and wipes team B, while only getting 1 death. The score is 8-1 as team B respawns. Team A, looking for people to fight, drifts closer to team B's cap ships. Once again both sides engage and team B gets wiped again. This time they get 2 kills for 8 deaths. The score is 16-3. At some point during that time, the turrets reactivated. Now that they are protected by turrets, all of team B decides to respawn in gunships and stay within the protection of the turrets. On the other hand, team A players are still flying whatever ships they picked at the beginning, and any of those players who is not flying a gunship is reduced to the role of spectator. They have no way to get within weapon's range of any of the enemy ships without getting instanty killed by turrets. After 2 minutes elapse, they are marked inactive and start losing requisitions. The only way for them to get rid of the inactivity flag is to commit suicide and give a free point to the enemy. With both sides in a standoff, neither side will be getting many kills and the score will pretty much stay frozen until the timer runs out (assuming pilots from team A don't commit suicide out of boredom). We'll be right back to the broken game mode that existed before the turrets were removed from TDM.

 

One consequence would be that most people would just pick gunships right from the start of the game, to be prepared in case the turrets get turned on at some point during the game, since gunships are the only ships that can still get kills once the turrets are on. As a result, instead of getting on a partially upgraded strike fighter when my team is facing a bunch of 2-ship newbies, I would make sure to always use a gunship because I would know that at some point, the turrets would probably be turned on and I would end up inactive if I was on a strike. Basically, I would feel forced to play a gunship 100% of the time in TDM.

[dancezwithnubz]

I get it, you can't deal with the reality that novices get trashed and opt out of GSF, you can't deal with the reality that in my suggestion, the winning team still wins. I get that you would rather beat up on a bunch of novices which even in the era of cap ship turrets didn't hide behind them and wait for the match to end anyway. What the turrets did was prevent *********s like us from camping on a spawn and making an already crappy match crappier.

 

If you've nothing to suggest and no alternative details to offer beyond grandiose misrepresentations and blatant avoidance of the point being made, then I see no point in pursuing the conversation further. You've made your point... you want to slaughter novices with no strings attached because that'll learn em real good... (don't play GSF).

 

look at the thread title: let's IMPROVE gsf experience for nub players.

 

New players getting farmed by experienced ones in PvP is nothing new. It's been a fact of gaming since before Ultima Online. So much so that pretty much anyone jumping into any pvp experience fully expects to get trashed early on.

 

The suggested fix for that has nothing to do with cap-ships, simply expanding the tutorial level to allow a second player in there for some friendly 1v1 instruction. Flying around that current tutorial level teaches new players very, very little beyond some very basic flight controls.

 

The issue with cap-ship turrets is a different one which I have outlined and you have ignored: Gamers Will Use Any Tactic That Gives An Advantage.

 

In the case of cap-ship turrets, I submit that they can ultimately benefit experienced players more than the noobs.

 

Spawn Camping has also been a 'feature' of online games for a long, long time. It's, imo, a grubby tactic, but it's a tactic that wins games and a tactic that I'm seeing more and more in TDM matches where there's a huge skill gap between the teams.

[Nemarus]

How about something simple...

 

Cap ship turrets are turned on in deathmatch for the team currently losing.

 

...

 

It was never that hard of a problem to solve, especially if you add in a buffer to the tune of... ~ cap ship turrets don't turn on for the losing team unless they're losing by a difference of (some variable). For example, if the variable is 10, and the score is 30 to 20.... then the team with only 20 kills has cap ship turrets on until the score is 30 to 21. At which time the turrets go back off.

 

This would alleviate issues on all fronts. The winning team can't hide at their ships, if the match is close enough... cap ships aren't deciding the outcome. If the match is one of those blow outs we've all seen, then at least the team getting stomped has a safe zone that can't be camped endlessly.

 

Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity.

 

Great suggestion. I suggest posting it in its own thread.

 

Not only would it solve the major issues, but it's actually somewhat sensible within the lore as well. If your own fighters are dominating enemy fighters, you wouldn't feel the need to risk using capital ship weapons, which might hit your own fighters. They are already winning the battle, so why take a risk and waste resources?

 

After all, A New Hope taught us that firing capital ship weapons is very expensive and should only be done when absolutely necessary! "Hold your fire. There're no life forms."

 

On the other hand, if enemy fighters were closing on your capital ships, and your own fighters were being decimated anyway, you'd fire on them with capital ship weapons.

[RatPoison]

look at the thread title: let's IMPROVE gsf experience for nub players.

 

Oh really. What do you think my suggestion did anyway?

 

New players getting farmed by experienced ones in PvP is nothing new. It's been a fact of gaming since before Ultima Online. So much so that pretty much anyone jumping into any pvp experience fully expects to get trashed early on.

 

From your own words... You stated that the stomp fests had neither side learning anything. So... care to explain to me what is learned in a mini-game that features something other than the toon people have been leveling, with unique controls, and customizations/builds when a person gets blown apart in an instant relatively quickly every time they spawn?

 

The suggested fix for that has nothing to do with cap-ships, simply expanding the tutorial level to allow a second player in there for some friendly 1v1 instruction. Flying around that current tutorial level teaches new players very, very little beyond some very basic flight controls.

 

The fix you mentioned was regarding exhaustion zones. ... I doubt none of us would disagree that the tutorial for the game is insufficient. That is indeed a gimme for improvements to the game. Unfortunately, I don't think you'll see moving targets to track and shoot down in the tutorials anytime soon as nothing but the fighters in GSF actually moves from their located spot.

 

The issue with cap-ship turrets is a different one which I have outlined and you have ignored: Gamers Will Use Any Tactic That Gives An Advantage.

 

I've ignored? Excuse me, but you've failed to deliver one example of cap ship abuse by the winning team that applies to the suggestion I made. I've thrown it back at you... twice now. Tell me exactly how turrets will get abused when neither team can rely on them exclusively for the win.

 

In the case of cap-ship turrets, I submit that they can ultimately benefit experienced players more than the noobs.

Submit all you want... Give examples, scenarios... apply it to the actual suggestion and perhaps there'll be something actually worth discussing.

 

Spawn Camping has also been a 'feature' of online games for a long, long time. It's, imo, a grubby tactic, but it's a tactic that wins games and a tactic that I'm seeing more and more in TDM matches where there's a huge skill gap between the teams.

 

Okay... so it's a grubby tactic and you endorse it. So why are you even bothering discussing this with me since you spell out your bias and disposition all in one sentence? The reality is... again... per my suggestion, the grubby tactic you love will ultimately still win you the game because (again) the cap ship turrets won't win one team or another the game.

 

You know, I tend to recognize that game developers attempt to prevent and discourage spawn camping in their games. Will people still attempt the feat... absolutely and will you still be able to more or less spawn camp in TDM if the turrets are on... absolutely. They did before, they will again, but instead of being right on top of the spawn point, they'll be back far enough to give folks an opportunity to not fly face first into a bomber love ball.

 

The ball is and has been in your court for quite awhile to dream up the cons to the suggestion I gave. The only one to date by anyone... the losing team will hide behind their cap ship. Plausible as it may be... nobody has been able to cite an instance in which this happened before the turrets were killed. And even still, this does not change the outcome of the game, and finally... if it wasn't fun for the team getting stomped into space dust... I suppose it's only fair they can make it less fun for us too ... or wasn't it already by your own words.

[dancezwithnubz]

Okay... so it's a grubby tactic and you endorse it. So why are you even bothering discussing this with me since you spell out your bias and disposition all in one sentence? The reality is... again... per my suggestion, the grubby tactic you love will ultimately still win you the game because (again) the cap ship turrets won't win one team or another the game.

 

Let me be crystal clear: It's a grubby tactic and I don't endorse it. I don't go out of my way to use it and I generally despise those who do. Along with cap-ship running, it's a cheap, dirty tactic that ruins the experience for noobs and is ultimately not much fun for the campers either.

 

I don't like TDM games where one team is forced back over the top of their cap ship and noobs keep spawning right in my gunsights (yes, they can choose another spawn, but they're noobs....).

 

I also dislike 3-cap domination games where the winning side starts choking off the spawn. I'd actually like to see all three spawns available for the losing team in that situation (on Kuat/Shipyards obv)

 

You also misread me. I'm not averse to the idea of cap-ship turrets coming back. Your suggestion is better than my initial post suggestion. I'd like to see it implemented just to see if it works as intended.

 

My concern is, and always has been, that a "safe area" is ultimately good for no-one. The "Spawn in an exhaustion zone with a temporary immunity to that exhaustion zone buff" idea floated by others strikes me as a very good all-round solution that gives new players a bit of time to pick where they exit the exhaustion zone and enter the battle arena.

 

Once you're in the battle arena, there should be nowhere to run to, aside from using the terrain to advantage.

[RatPoison]

You also misread me. I'm not averse to the idea of cap-ship turrets coming back. Your suggestion is better than my initial post suggestion. I'd like to see it implemented just to see if it works as intended.

 

My concern is, and always has been, that a "safe area" is ultimately good for no-one. The "Spawn in an exhaustion zone with a temporary immunity to that exhaustion zone buff" idea floated by others strikes me as a very good all-round solution that gives new players a bit of time to pick where they exit the exhaustion zone and enter the battle arena.

 

Once you're in the battle arena, there should be nowhere to run to, aside from using the terrain to advantage.

 

Once you're in... but do take note that in a deathmatch... that has no reset/multiple lives... spawn camping, regardless of where it is is inevitable. The unfortunate reality is that in no circumstance does the current situation provide to anybody the ability to safely spawn, and in no circumstance will any change where spawn points are designated will spawn camping ever be abated.

 

The most we can hope to accomplish if first, provide a safe zone to spawn, and the ability to get into cover from the onset of entering the arena.

 

Warzones in this game and other games provide to players safe spawn locations. In this game specifically, in warzones, when one team is pressed back to their spawn... they have the ability to fight from that point and utilize LOS to spare themselves death while being protected from players entering that location with instant death. Turrets aren't much different. Exhaustion zone spawn... even in the number of scenarios I can think of present too many issues that end with no real change and no real penalty to the dominating team for pressing the other side so desperately back against a wall.

 

Suffice to say... doing nothing benefits nobody, but doing something that essentially does nothing isn't any better either. In a TDM, players need a safe spawn point, and the ability to fight their way out with a degree of safety... otherwise its just death after death.

 

Regardless... something, anything is better than nothing at this point.

Edited July 9, 2014 by RatPoison

[dancezwithnubz]

Regardless... something, anything is better than nothing at this point.

 

now THIS i agree with 100%.

 

I think all the theory crafting in the world will be no substitute for trying out some different ideas and seeing what works and what doesn't.

[MatuVonnegut]

To my mind, the easiest (perhaps not in terms of coding) solution would be to allow Cap Ship turrets to be "pilotable;" similar to a gunship's railgun, but with an increased range. 20k-25k? That should prevent cap ship camping, while taking those gunners out of the fight once it moves out of range.

 

There would have to be a way to get them out of the turrets, of course.

[Mad_yojik]

To truly improve n00b experience - BioWare must fix the matchmaking. Period. Nothing else will fix the situation when 8 noobs are regularry steamrolled by 8 pros to the point of spawn camping (typical situation... thats why GSF became boring to me, and I dropped it).

 

To further improve the n00b situation - some PvE or really expanded tutorial with bots of some sort is required (take regular WZ for the instance - when you go there you already know the basics of handling your character, how your ablilties work, what is damaging and whats not, what is roots, snares and interrupts at least for your char and so on from regular PvE), to practice basics without being ****ed totally. Best of i would be co-op "humans vs bots and big boss ship", like current FPs.

 

As for the camping itself - why not simply make "lockout" area around the spawn? Like some distance (for example 5 km ball) around cap ship the fighters are protected with "capship shields" (invulnerable), but cannot use their weapons and active abilities. The campers cant fire at them, they cant fire on campers. Problem solved. Perhaps (to avoid scoring one kill and staying in shield) - activate it when certain point difference (like 10) is reached, and only for the losing team. If solo n00b is stupid enough to leave shield on his own - well he deserves it, right?

 

Not sure this mechanic is easy to code tho (since I dont know if game engine allows it), but theoretically - cant be too hard.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Mad_yojik

[Muljo_Stpho]

As far as the tutorial is concerned... So many ideas for improvement could be listed (definitely a subject for its own topic). One quick idea though...

 

Clicking on the tutorial button could bring up a menu with some options:

* Enter basic tutorial stage (this is the tutorial that currently exists)

* Enter solo practice stage (uses currently selected ship in your hangar, has more targets to shoot up, does not stop you over and over with text to read, but otherwise it's the same as the basic tutorial)

* Enter team practice stage (group members get an invite to join you, tutorial invulnerability is disabled, pick your ship and also your side each time you spawn, but otherwise it's the same map as the solo practice)

 

Anyway, capital ship shields...? My guess for how they could approach the code to implement it: Maybe it could be implemented as an ability that the turrets are capable of using. The ability activates with zero cooldown so it can use it on each ship that spawns and it can refresh it on each ship that stays within a short range. It creates a buff/debuff or a set of buffs/debuffs that enable invulnerability (like we have in the tutorial, but add in a timer so it can run out) and disable all abilities (debuffs to disable things already exist in the game).

 

It still needs an extra conditional check somewhere though so it only activates for the losing team and only when they're behind by a certain margin. That seems like it would be working on a completely different level from this buff. Although...

 

Okay, make the turret ability work like a buff that it uses on itself. The buff lasts for 7 seconds and the ability has a 4 second cooldown (so it will pretty much always be active). The buff grants invulnerability, disables all primary/secondary weapons, and disables all other abilities (preventing the turret from actually doing anything). Now code something new into the game so that while a team is losing by 5 or more points their capital ship turret gains a shield projector buff which shares the turret's buffs with nearby allies. Also code something new into the game so that while a team is losing by 10 or more points their capital ship turret gains a superlaser buff which makes the turret immune to the weapon disabling effects of the buff that it keeps using.

 

There are probably still some kinks to work out, but maybe we've got something here?