SWTOR (exclusive) character power ranking hierarchy

[Selenial]

You bet! I'm looking forward to it very much. Maul and his little army are going down.

 

Also, for your own sake, don't check the KMC thread.

 

I don't want you drawn into this, but someone may have just made an attempt to get you in...

[Aurbere]

Also, for your own sake, don't check the KMC thread.

 

I don't want you drawn into this, but someone may have just made an attempt to get you in...

 

You've made me curious...

[DudeinFlames]

You've made me curious...

Do it.

[Aurbere]

Do it.

 

Depends on what this attempt pertains to.

[XSUPREMESKILLZX]

A Count, perhaps.

[DudeinFlames]

From thread:

Fact: Obi-Wan tires out Count Dooku in every encounter.

[Selenial]

From thread:

 

Lol that's not it.

[Aurbere]

From thread:

 

Link me to the thread so I can read it in full please.

 

Lol that's not it.

 

It's not?

Edited July 7, 2014 by Aurbere

[Aurbere]

Ah, I found what you were referring to, Sel. Tell them I said 'lol fools'

[XSUPREMESKILLZX]

"Them," as in Neph.

 

he's still awaiting, "enlightenment," btw.

[Aurbere]

"Them," as in Neph.

 

he's still awaiting, "enlightenment," btw.

 

Then direct my previous comment to "Neph"

[XSUPREMESKILLZX]

Let your own minions do your dirty work.

[Aurbere]

Let your own minions do your dirty work.

 

You resigned your free will when you entered my domain!

[XSUPREMESKILLZX]

Soon it will belong to KMC. Soooooon.............

 

But yeah, I told him.

[XSUPREMESKILLZX]

He's responded. You should join KMC to "smite," him.

[Aurbere]

Soon it will belong to KMC. Soooooon.............

 

But yeah, I told him.

 

Good.

[Aurbere]

He's responded. You should join KMC to "smite," him.

 

Eh, not really a point I want to dispute. Dooku's lightning isn't weaksauce, but I feel that this is because he isn't inclined to show off god-like powers. He's a gentleman after all, and everything about him points to this theory.

[DudeinFlames]

Link me to the thread so I can read it in full please.

 

 

 

It's not?

It's not in that particular thread, but I'm sure it's in that forum somewhere. I was actually being more generous.

[Aurbere]

It's not in that particular thread, but I'm sure it's in that forum somewhere. I was actually being more generous.

 

In all honestly, it probably doesn't really matter. But I would be interested in that thread should you find it.

[S_W_LeGenD]

I have to disagree concerning Nihilus' placement, for the same reasons I exclude him from the Most Powerful Lists.

 

My reasons being that Darth Nihilus possesses no connection to the Living Force whatsoever and given that possess no Force Power of his own that can be measured. This is the result of his status as a wound in the Force which unlike with the Jedi Exile, utterly consumed him, and would have totally annihilated his personal reservoir of Force Energy:

 

Something the following sources illustrate:

His power is great, and it comes from hunger. He is a wound in the Force, more presence than flesh, and in his wake, life dies... sacrificing itself to his hunger.

 

--Visas Marr

 

Nothing matters except his hunger. Before it devours him totally, Nihilus uses its power to displace his persona into his robes and armor. As his useless body disintegrates, he becomes living primitive intention; at last, the whole of the galaxy becomes food—for Nihilus has become the hunger.

 

--Taken from the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

What we are looking at is effectively self-draining, Nihilus' power was a self-destructive one and his ultimate fate was similar to that of the Jedi Masters after being drained by Traya:

This master is dead...drained of life. His body is worse than lifeless, it's like an absence in the Force.

 

--Taken from Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Noting, most importantly, that this ability goes straight to the core, it is not simply a case of siphoning one's reservoir which like a spring can eventually bubble back up, the power actually targets one's connection to the Force itself:

As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not always used. Instead of sending one's will through connection in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely.

 

--Kreia

Nihilus is effectively an absence in the Force given consciousness, and an absence in the Force possesses no Living Force. Given that, all of Nihilus' power is external, he draws on the Force around him to accomplish his feats - and given that the Living Force around him is an infinite reservoir, his powers are equally infinite.

 

Altogether, Kreia sums up his status pretty effectively:

There is no strength in the hunger he possesses… and the will behind his power is a primal thing. And it devours him as he devours others—his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls.

 

―Kreia

So I feel, if it is Force Power we are judging here as opposed to one's capacity to wield the Force then Nihilus is effectively the antithesis of this, he scores a big fat zero. However if we are judging capacity to wield the Force, then Nihilus surpasses everyone, because his abilities are infinite - the entirety of the Force is at his command.

 

Noting that other than stating his powers to be infinite, his abilities are impossible to gauge, because it is completely dependent on how concentrated the Living Force is in any given place, and he grows stronger with each exertion.

Darth Nihilus had no connection with the Force because of his Wound condition so he depended upon others for strength. He instinctively acquired Force Drain talent and used it to feed on others to satiate his hunger and gain power to use the Force. Hunger was a side-effect of his condition.

 

Darth Traya was correct in the sense that Darth Nihilus would perish if his food supply runs out, his food supply were other living beings. Your assumption that Darth Nihilus had infinite power of the Force at his command have no basis, he lost his connection to the Force and he could not call upon the Force to perform actions like a normal Force-user. His powers are dependent upon the strength acquired from feeding on others but power acquired in this way wasn't fixed or constant because it was dispensed by performing tedious feats such as holding the flagship Ravager together and performing additional actions. The lack of connection with the Force resulted in this instability. This is why Darth Nihilus needed to feed on others endlessly.

 

If Darth Nihilus had infinite power of the Force at his command, he would have Force-pushed Darth Traya out from the planet or worse, he would have broken planets apart or something, he would have destroyed the galaxy itself. This isn't the case.

 

When Darth Nihilus attacked a world (i.e. Katarr), he acquired sufficient strength to carry on his activities for a certain period of time. When strength (obtained in this manner) began to diminish due to being dispensed in various activities, he needed to feed again and sought another world to consume on mass scale. An endless cycle.

 

However, you have a valid point that Darth Nihilus doesn't have proper strength to gauge him with, his strength level fluctuates depending upon his activities and he would fall without dependency upon others. He is an anomaly in this context. Therefore, I am leaning towards excluding this character from ranking. I would mention the reasons for this exclusion in the main page.

 

Character statements are not gosel canon - they are opinions and therefore liable to falsehood, and given Khem Val's unhealthy obsession with Tulak Hord, and his obvious ulterior motive of lording Tulak Hord over Nox as his superior, I am not inclined to believe he is telling the truth and most likely exaggerating.

 

So unless these feats have been confirmed by canonical sources, we have no reason to believe they are true.

 

And even if they were, placing Tulak Hord on the list would be claiming that he was more powerful than all of his contemporaries i.e. Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Kallig etc. and we lack the information to make such claims.

 

P.S. Indeed the fact that Khem Val ends up admitting Nox rivals him in power, leads me to believe he was exaggerating. Considering such abilities would put him on level with the likes of Yoda, Sidious and the Sith Emperor.

I understand the fallibility of opinions of characters but ethic is to believe unless a valid reason exists to doubt.

 

Darth Traya revealed to Meetra Surik that Tulak Hord was an unparalleled swordsman, her opinion have been validated in a sourcebook (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia); Tulak Hord was renowned for his legendary combat prowess.

 

Khem Val have directly served Tulak Hord, he is in a much better position then any historian to reveal capabilities of Tulak Hord. It makes no sense to ignore information provided by him unless he have been contradicted or proven wrong by other sources or individuals.

 

As far as Darth Nox is concerned, let us not forget that he used sorcery to fuel his power in unprecedented ways. He used Force-walking ritual technique to bind several Force ghosts to himself and he considerably augmented his power with the might of Force ghosts. With such strength, he utterly decimated a "supremely powerful" opponent in a battle. Therefore, we have another anomaly in the making here.

 

If natural strength is to be considered, I don't think Darth Nox rivals Yoda, Sidious and Sith Emperor. If his augmented strength is considered, well you to the math. In-fact, Sith Emperor have been established to be above any other Force-user so I will assume that Darth Nox did not equal him even with augmented power. However, I am inclined to consider him for second position because of his stupendous power progression.

 

I have following contenders for second position in mind now:-

 

- Darth Nox

- Tulak Hord

- Darth Jadus

- Exar Kun

Edited July 16, 2014 by S_W_LeGenD

[Beniboybling]

Nihilus powers are infinite because they have no limits. Nihilus is as powerful as the amount of Living Force he can draw upon at any one given time, depending on his environment, and his capacity to draw on the Living Force is limitless.

 

Therefore Nihilus can potentially perfom any feat, as long as he is given the necessary amount of energy. For example if Nihilus were say to find himself on Mortis one can only imagine the fathomless power he could wield.

 

Could Nihilus have Force-pushed Traya of the planet? Sure. He lifted an entire starship of the surface, a human being would be infinitely more easy. But considering Traya survived the encounter I expect his intial intentions were not to kill.

 

Could Nihilus have pulled the planet apart? Probably! He can after all, consume entire planets in an instant. Clearly planetary-scale feats are well within his abilities. But devouring rather than destroying planets was his agenda.

 

Could Nihilus have destroyed the galaxy itself? Yes! That is why Traya thought it paramount to put a stop to him, because if Nihilus was not stopped the entire galaxy would have eventually being consumed.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

I understand the fallibility of opinions of characters but ethic is to believe unless a valid reason exists to doubt.

I just provided a valid reason to doubt: Khem Val is a Tulak Hord fanboy. So start doubting.

 

I mean are you just going to ignore that blatant fact? Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a robot... maybe I am.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

If natural strength is to be considered, I don't think Darth Nox rivals Yoda, Sidious and Sith Emperor. If his augmented strength is considered, well you to the math. In-fact, Sith Emperor have been established to be above any other Force-user so I will assume that Darth Nox did not equal him even with augmented power. However, I am inclined to consider him for second position because of his stupendous power progression.

All right I will.

 

Darth Nox is a powerful Force User, but his abilities are surpassed by that of the Sith Emperor, Yoda and Sidious quite largerly and his most impressive feats have been accomplished with the help of Force Ghosts.

 

Lord Ergast and Darth Andru were presumably of average power for beings of their caliber. So the equivalent of Jedi Knight and Jedi Master level. Maybe Andru was above average considering his mastery over Sith Magic.

 

Kalatosh Zavros was a Jedi Master turned Dark Jedi during the time of Revan's Sith Empire. Revan had a lot of powerful Sith under his command but aside from Bandon and Malak they really weren't that special. We have little reason to believe that this guy was not the average one would expect from a Jedi Master/Dark Jedi.

 

Horak-Mul was one of Ludo Kressh's underlings, didn't do a great deal, wasn't that important. Again probably the average for a being of his title i.e. a Sith Lord - we have little reason to assume otherwise.

 

So what have we here? 2 Lords and 2 Darths of expected ability.

 

The Sith Emperor slapped down 3 above average Jedi Knights and 1 above-average Jedi Master. He also slapped down the Dark Council a few times (admittedly they were unaware), so he's unlikely to struggle with these ghosts.

 

Darth Sidious slapped down 3 above average Jedi Masters with equal ease. Again collectively these individuals would have likely surpassed the ability of Nox's Force Ghosts and on top of that he's stronger than the Emperor.

 

Yoda = Sidious, also slapped down Asajj Ventress with little difficult who is likely a match for any one of these Sith Lords. So again I doubt he would struggle against their combined power.

 

Conclusion, Yoda, Sidious and the Sith Emperor would have very little difficulty overcoming the strength of Nox's Force Ghosts. It is therefore unlikely that even with Nox's own power attached that he would surpass any of them. On extra above-average Sith Lord is really not going to tip the scales if they can handle the rest with consummate ease.

 

Did the math, not convinced.

 

P.S. Exar Kun > Darth Nox. So does the Emperor's Wrath.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Nihilus powers are infinite because they have no limits. Nihilus is as powerful as the amount of Living Force he can draw upon at any one given time, depending on his environment, and his capacity to draw on the Living Force is limitless.

 

Therefore Nihilus can potentially perfom any feat, as long as he is given the necessary amount of energy. For example if Nihilus were say to find himself on Mortis one can only imagine the fathomless power he could wield.

 

Could Nihilus have Force-pushed Traya of the planet? Sure. He lifted an entire starship of the surface, a human being would be infinitely more easy. But considering Traya survived the encounter I expect his intial intentions were not to kill.

 

Could Nihilus have pulled the planet apart? Probably! He can after all, consume entire planets in an instant. Clearly planetary-scale feats are well within his abilities. But devouring rather than destroying planets was his agenda.

 

Could Nihilus have destroyed the galaxy itself? Yes! That is why Traya thought it paramount to put a stop to him, because if Nihilus was not stopped the entire galaxy would have eventually being consumed.

If Darth Nihilus can draw on the power of the Force, why does he need to feed on others to satiate his hunger and ensure his survival? He can simply draw power from the Force itself since it exists everywhere. This is why I don't get the infinite power reasoning.

 

Yes, I do not doubt Darth Nihilus's ability to perform impressive actions after he have consumed an entire planet worth of biota to fuel his power or gain strength. However, his performance would vary with feeding aspect. Right?

 

To perform actions such as breaking planets apart or destroying the entire galaxy, I don't think he can amass this kind of strength even after consuming an entire planet worth of biota. This sounds too unrealistic and a no-limits fallacy which I doubt that Obsidian had in mind for him. Darth Nihilus, for all his capabilities, still had limits. If he could consume entire galaxy in one single swoop, he could have done so instead of focusing on a planet at a time.

 

I just provided a valid reason to doubt: Khem Val is a Tulak Hord fanboy. So start doubting.

 

I mean are you just going to ignore that blatant fact? Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a robot... maybe I am.

Interjection: Your opinion is fallible Meatbag.

 

Bro, this is inadequate reason. Khem Val might be fond of Tulak Hord a bit too much but he have history with the latter and therefore the best source of information for the capabilities of latter character outside sourcebooks. He complemented Darth Traya's account of Tulak Hord's combat prowess with additional information so why would he lie about other stuff?

 

Hord is (officially) stated as one of the greatest Sith to have ever existed, having great power, having command of the dark side and mastery of lightsaber that won him many battles, being undefeated in fair contest, a mighty Sith Lord with legendary dueling abilities, having knowledge of a ritual which bestows considerable power to individuals, a master of Sith sorcery and powerful. These statements lend some credibility to claims of characters about him.

 

I have yet to come across a valid reason to doubt Khem Val. His introduction and role (in the story of one of the playable characters) have a purpose. We are giving importance to views of Darth Traya even though she have history of manipulating others and outright lying about some stuff, but we assume that she is not lying about every stuff, that she is sometimes correct too. So I don't get the double-standards.

 

This thread is not just about promoting well-known characters, it is about bringing poorly known juggernauts to light for knowledge of the masses. The underlying statement is the most important purpose of this thread. Also check clause 5 of this thread.

 

I understand that some characters cannot be accurately ranked due to lack of information such as Marka Ragnos but I have something in mind for these characters as well, I will introduce a sub-section featuring names of these kind of characters just to convey the masses that these characters have been officially recognized as powerful in the lore.

 

Rankings are not an easy matter, this is why we do not get an official list of most powerful characters in the mythos. The mythos is continuously changing with passage of time, new ground realities are emerging and take precedence over older ground realities but some members are stuck in the past.

 

MOST NOTABLY, I do give importance to your views because of your knowledge. I may have disagreements with your about certain stuff but this does not means that I am discarding your views and input. Do not worry about rankings, I will re-evaluate them once the lists have been filled, if re-adjustments have to be made, they (WILL) be made. So chill my friend.

 

If you have any other reason that casts doubt on credibility of Khem Val, kindly present it. I (WILL) consider any valid reason in this matter, this is why I am having discussion with the members. Otherwise, I can just complete rankings myself and be done with this thread. But this is not what I have in mind, my intention is to portray a fair picture, to be as impartial as possible. This is why I am welcoming input from fellow members, because I do not claim to know everything, because other members (including you) can bring some information to my attention that I may not be aware of and I would consider such information while assessing characters. I can also consider TIER based approach for rankings, if I have to so that possibilities are covered. Have faith in my work.

 

All right I will.

 

Darth Nox is a powerful Force User, but his abilities are surpassed by that of the Sith Emperor, Yoda and Sidious quite largerly and his most impressive feats have been accomplished with the help of Force Ghosts.

 

Lord Ergast and Darth Andru were presumably of average power for beings of their caliber. So the equivalent of Jedi Knight and Jedi Master level. Maybe Andru was above average considering his mastery over Sith Magic.

 

Kalatosh Zavros was a Jedi Master turned Dark Jedi during the time of Revan's Sith Empire. Revan had a lot of powerful Sith under his command but aside from Bandon and Malak they really weren't that special. We have little reason to believe that this guy was not the average one would expect from a Jedi Master/Dark Jedi.

 

Horak-Mul was one of Ludo Kressh's underlings, didn't do a great deal, wasn't that important. Again probably the average for a being of his title i.e. a Sith Lord - we have little reason to assume otherwise.

 

So what have we here? 2 Lords and 2 Darths of expected ability.

 

The Sith Emperor slapped down 3 above average Jedi Knights and 1 above-average Jedi Master. He also slapped down the Dark Council a few times (admittedly they were unaware), so he's unlikely to struggle with these ghosts.

 

Darth Sidious slapped down 3 above average Jedi Masters with equal ease. Again collectively these individuals would have likely surpassed the ability of Nox's Force Ghosts and on top of that he's stronger than the Emperor.

 

Yoda = Sidious, also slapped down Asajj Ventress with little difficult who is likely a match for any one of these Sith Lords. So again I doubt he would struggle against their combined power.

 

Conclusion, Yoda, Sidious and the Sith Emperor would have very little difficulty overcoming the strength of Nox's Force Ghosts. It is therefore unlikely that even with Nox's own power attached that he would surpass any of them. On extra above-average Sith Lord is really not going to tip the scales if they can handle the rest with consummate ease.

 

Did the math, not convinced.

 

P.S. Exar Kun > Darth Nox. So does the Emperor's Wrath.

Thank you for your input

 

However, I notice some strange reasoning here or lack of understanding of condition of Darth Nox.

 

Force ghosts are different from mortal beings, they are entities and have different ground realities then mortals, they might be able to perform only those actions that they learned during mortality but they are powerful in a different way.

 

It doesn't matters how good Lord Ergast, Darth Andru, Kalatosh Zavros and Horak-Mul were in real life, they do not exist in the form of a Strike Team to assist Darth Nox. They are Force ghosts and Darth Nox binds them to himself with use of dark sorcery (Force-walking ritual). A lone Force spirit offers limitless source of energy for the wielder, having access to power of several is simply too much and pave way for too much or unrealistic projection of power accordingly.

 

Even if we consider that these Force ghosts offer same level of power to Darth Nox as they could as mortals, they directly augment strength of Darth Nox and not exist in the form of a Strike Team to assist him. This is like 2 + 2 + 4 + 4 = 12. Basically, Darth Nox doesn't have strengths and weaknesses of these characters, they are simply source of his incredible strength. Darth Nox packs strength of several other Force-users within himself on top of his own personal strength. So he is stupendously powerful in this manner. Notice the difference here.

 

So while it might be possible to overwhelm a Strike Team of the aforementioned characters in single battle whose Force ghosts Darth Nox possessed, his situation is considerably different from this.

 

Do not underestimate the power of Force ghosts, they almost slaughtered Darth Sidious at one point on Korriban when the latter Sith Lord visited the planet to explore it for personal reasons.

 

Also, comparing Yoda to Darth Sidious vaguely makes no sense either. Darth Sidious continued to grow in power with passage of time and he would have surpassed Yoda by considerably margin during DE, if considered for evaluation. This is why I don't subscribe to Yoda = Darth Sidious logic either and neither I believe that Yoda equals or exceeds Sith Emperor in power. Sith Emperor have vastly different ground realities then these individuals. But this is discussion for another time and another thread, just high-lightning a point.

Edited July 16, 2014 by S_W_LeGenD

[Beniboybling]

1. Because people, like all living things, are part of the Living Force.

 

2. Yes like I said, Nihilus can potentially perform any feat if fed up enough, making his powers limitless.

 

3. What if consumed two? Or three? Or a Force Nexus? Nihilus has no limits, he kills worlds with his voice. The only reason Nihilus couldn't destroy the entire galaxy was because he had not gathered enough energy to do it.

 

But eventually he would have and the galaxy would have been destroyed if he had not been stopped.

 

4. Best source can still be a crappy source. If the best source of information on Tulak Hord is is fanboy pet then as I said we lack the information to rank him. Heck even if that feat where true its still not enough information. Traya's statement could also be hyperbolic, all we can gather is that he was a powerful Force user and lightsaber duelist.

 

Great, he is might and powerful... seems every Tom, Dick and Harry is these days...

 

Khem Val has a reason to exaggerate the truth, to impress Nox and make him seem small. Which is something he clearly wanted to do considering how many times he talks about how Hord is waaay better than him.

 

If we wan't to talk about double-standards then I'd like to know how you are happy to believe are fanboy over here but oh know the Father is definitely exaggerating cause cause reasons....

 

5. Force Ghosts only differ in their ability to act on the corporeal world, not in terms of their Force energy. If a lone spirit can offer limitless amounts of energy then it begs the question why Nox decided he needed more than one.

 

If you have some evidence for this then present, because as far as I'm concerned its not the case.

 

And while true the Sith Emperor in particular overwhelmed them all at once by breaking through their barriers - nothing to do with strengths and weaknesses here and the same as overwhelming one person of equal strength.

 

In terms of Sidious and Yoda what we should take away is that the power of one ghost is moot to them, so the collective power of 4 of said mooks is hardly likely to prove a significant challenge in a group or as one.

 

I do not recall Force Ghosts ever almost "slaughtering" Darth Sidious lol.

 

DE = Non-Canon, so we don't know if Sidious ever reached that level of power.