BW is forcing tanks to use accuracy?

[Levram]

We're not discussing whether or not it's working as intended, we're discussing if it should be at all. Not sure why you think anything you said here applies.

 

Fine, then yes, please have the Developers insert randomness into every ability in the game, change all the tooltips to exactly describe how they work, put out a perfect set of patch notes to describe every change they made and guess what, the best guilds in this game will adjust all their strategies to compensate for the changes, and still clear all the content.

 

That's what makes a good player and a good team. You work with the tools you are given.

 

The fact that the best teams are able to consistently clear all the content in the game means that clearly the fights and mechanics are fair towards skilled players. I'm sorry that you seem to find the possibility of missing interrupts in one fight to be such a roadblock for you.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Levram

[TalantM]

Ok, seriously. Interrupts=the dps job. it's that simple. Tanks get it as a backup if things go wrong, like really really wrong because backup interrupts are, at least in my group, assigned to ranged dps because they won't have to move far to get it. The tanks interrupts can miss, so it's not their job unless there is no other option.

 

The only time I've seen this be a problem is in flashpoints or pugs when the dps is too lazy to do things like they should be and complain about it

[MillionsKNives]

Fine, then yes, please have the Developers insert randomness into every ability in the game, change all the tooltips to exactly describe how they work, put out a perfect set of patch notes to describe every change they made and guess what, the best guilds in this game will adjust all their strategies to compensate for the changes, and still clear all the content.

 

That's what makes a good player and a good team. You work with the tools you are given.

 

The fact that the best teams are able to consistently clear all the content in the game means that clearly the fights and mechanics are fair towards skilled players.

 

I guess some people consider working with unreliable tools skill, I call it stupid. If you ever start developing games please let me know so I can not buy them.

 

I'm sorry that you seem to find the possibility of missing interrupts in one fight to be such a roadblock for you.

 

Nice strawman, but I've said no such thing. I've been against the design of having interrupts and utility attacks missing since I noticed it during a HM Athiss run quite a while ago. My dislike for it has nothing to do with content being clearable or not, or being too hard, but with the design itself.

Edited June 17, 2014 by MillionsKNives

[Kingsbount]

I've been against the design of having interrupts and utility attacks missing since I noticed it during a HM Athiss run quite a while ago. My dislike for it has nothing to do with content being clearable or not, or being too hard, but with the design itself.

 

Agreed.

As i was saying earlyer - i have NOTHING against attack miss. ALL MMO have same design.

But when it affects class utility... Well, im sorry but this is crap.

How hard it can be to make Force pull 100% hit? Or other "harmless" ability?

Will it break the game? lol Im seriously doubt about this.

Maybe some of you actually think that this system is fun and challenging, but its NOT.

 

For me it's not fun at all. Its a huge pain in the neck.

[Halinalle]

Only time when I have missed with Force Pull/Harpoon/Grapple is when target is behind the cover. As far as I know that's stated in tooltip of those abilities.

 

Interrupting in group content is DD's job. Tank's interrupts are only there as backup, if something goes wrong.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Halinalle

[Icebergy]

I don't remember ever having an interrupt miss and I use zero accuracy.

 

Interrupting in group content is DD's job. Tank's interrupts are only there as backup, if something goes wrong.

 

That is the attitude of a bad tank.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Icebergy

[Halinalle]

That is the attitude of a bad tank.

 

So, it's only tank's job?

 

Let's see:

1-2 tanks in group (depending on content)

2 or more DDs in group (depending on content)

 

Tank can't interrupt everything and build threat at the same time.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Halinalle

[MillionsKNives]

So, it's only tank's job?

No, but there's no reason for a tank not to

Tank can't interrupt everything and build threat at the same time.

You realize that the interrupt is off the GCD right? The only threat you could possibly lose by taunting is interrupting your one channeled ability.

[Khevar]

Tank can't interrupt everything and build threat at the same time.

Interrupts are off the GCD. How would using them get in the way of your building threat?

 

Edit: Ninja'd!

Edited June 18, 2014 by Khevar

[Halinalle]

The only threat you could possibly lose by taunting is interrupting your one channeled ability.

 

Well... You don't only lose threat but something else too...

[TalantM]

I don't remember ever having an interrupt miss and I use zero accuracy.

 

 

 

That is the attitude of a bad tank.

It's really not.. Because that's how the game actually works. My interrrupt can miss, the dps interrupt won't (if they geared even close to properly) so because I can't do it reliably, and the dps can, it's the job of the dps and as the tank, I shouldn't be needing to do it at all. I will if it needs to be done because something goes wrong, but with like 3 specific exceptions (and those exceptions are in fact BS and changes should be make to reflect it) The dps can and should be in charge of the inrettupts. It's not the attitude of a bad tank, it's the bottom line. If interrupts are garunteed to hit for tanks (which could be tied to the stance or put in a tree ability fairly easily), that will change, untill then it's not my job unless **** hits the fan.

[Khevar]

Well... You don't only lose threat but something else too...

It's not hard, as a tank, to interrupt, and maintain aggro, and position the boss. Remember LR-5? Incinerate needs to interrupted within 0.7 seconds of the start of the channel. As a tank I took care of the interrupts myself.

 

Of course, that was pre 2.0 when (so far as I know) my interrupt never missed despite no accuracy.

 

/shrug

Edited June 18, 2014 by Khevar

[BuriDogshin]

I guess some people consider working with unreliable tools skill, I call it stupid.

You are essentially asking to make the game more unrealistic: "I can interrupt your action JUST BY WANTING TO, with no chance of failing to do so." What fictional or non-fictional mechanism do you propose that could do such a thing to an enemy?

 

Life is full of chance, and chances. Taking risks and coping with unreliability is not optional.

[Kingsbount]

You are essentially asking to make the game more unrealistic: "I can interrupt your action JUST BY WANTING TO, with no chance of failing to do so." What fictional or non-fictional mechanism do you propose that could do such a thing to an enemy?

 

Life is full of chance, and chances. Taking risks and coping with unreliability is not optional.

 

Ok. Let's make it REALISTIC.

Lightsaber strike killing with one hit. Game over. No gambling. No RNG. Just pure hot plasma.

[MillionsKNives]

You are essentially asking to make the game more unrealistic: "I can interrupt your action JUST BY WANTING TO, with no chance of failing to do so." What fictional or non-fictional mechanism do you propose that could do such a thing to an enemy?

 

Life is full of chance, and chances. Taking risks and coping with unreliability is not optional.

 

Realism, in a game. Realism, in a game where you shoot lightning from your finger tips, wave around swords made of light, can travel faster than the speed of light to any planet of your wish, and shoot plasma bolts out of pistols. Right...

 

Ignoring how terrible that aspect of the argument is, shouldn't everything you do in the game have a chance to fail then? After all, guns jam, vehicles break down, pets die, armor breaks, people trip or lose concentration, etc. I mean, if we're going to say that one thing being guaranteed (in a game) is crazy then nothing should be guaranteed.

[BuriDogshin]

Realism, in a game. Realism, in a game where you shoot lightning from your finger tips, wave around swords made of light, can travel faster than the speed of light to any planet of your wish, and shoot plasma bolts out of pistols. Right...

 

Way to dodge the issue. None of those is beyond the realm of possiblity, as far as science can currently determine, BTW. In fact, I've shot lightning from my fingertip many times, as have most people who shuffle their shoes across carpet on a dry day. It's all more believable than the Hero Who Never Misses you want put in the game.

 

But anyway, is your issue that you want SWTOR to be more like Chess than like the Mother of All RPGs, D&D?

 

Ignoring how terrible that aspect of the argument is,

 

Oh no, please tell us how terrible. Please explain the terrible difference between fiction where the hero can occasionally miss, and fiction where the hero is infallible and always accomplishes what he or she attempts. Isn't the former usually written for adults, and the latter normally written for 6 year olds? Are 6-year olds who you think this game should target?

 

shouldn't everything you do in the game have a chance to fail then?

 

Over the past 38 or so years (yes, I've been playing multiplayer RPGs a long long time) I, like millions of other people, have spent uncountable hours playing a series of games where a 1 rolled with a D20 was always a fail. I never heard any of the adult players I played with complain about it: they recognized that it added drama and occasionally humor. I have seen a 9-year old rage-quit over rolling a 1 though.

 

My experience leads me to believe that your stridently-presented opinions on game design aren't shared by the vast majority of game players and designers. More people play games of chance than chess. A lot of us embrace the fictional risk of "rolling a 1" as a feature, not a bug.

[Halinalle]

It's not hard, as a tank, to interrupt, and maintain aggro, and position the boss. Remember LR-5? Incinerate needs to interrupted within 0.7 seconds of the start of the channel. As a tank I took care of the interrupts myself.

 

Of course, that was pre 2.0 when (so far as I know) my interrupt never missed despite no accuracy.

 

/shrug

 

So, I'm supposed to interrupt my Force Lightning/TK Throw just because DDs are lazy? Wow, just wow...

 

I know it now! I know why people claim that "Shadows/Assassins can't tank".

Edited June 18, 2014 by Halinalle

[Kingsbount]

Way to dodge the issue. None of those is beyond the realm of possiblity, as far as science can currently determine, BTW. In fact, I've shot lightning from my fingertip many times, as have most people who shuffle their shoes across carpet on a dry day. It's all more believable than the Hero Who Never Misses you want put in the game.

 

But anyway, is your issue that you want SWTOR to be more like Chess than like the Mother of All RPGs, D&D?

 

 

 

Oh no, please tell us how terrible. Please explain the terrible difference between fiction where the hero can occasionally miss, and fiction where the hero is infallible and always accomplishes what he or she attempts. Isn't the former usually written for adults, and the latter normally written for 6 year olds? Are 6-year olds who you think this game should target?

 

 

 

Over the past 38 or so years (yes, I've been playing multiplayer RPGs a long long time) I, like millions of other people, have spent uncountable hours playing a series of games where a 1 rolled with a D20 was always a fail. I never heard any of the adult players I played with complain about it: they recognized that it added drama and occasionally humor. I have seen a 9-year old rage-quit over rolling a 1 though.

 

My experience leads me to believe that your stridently-presented opinions on game design aren't shared by the vast majority of game players and designers. More people play games of chance than chess. A lot of us embrace the fictional risk of "rolling a 1" as a feature, not a bug.

 

Dude, wake up from nerd dreams.

Rude but true.

Modern MMORPG's will NEVER be like D'n'D. Live with that.

Bad design is always bad design.

No matter if someone will call it "realism" - it's still will be just bad design.

Just imagine FPS where hero will die after 1 shot. Or will be paralized from pain shock. Or even bleed to death.

You know what will happen? Game will be in a black list of all gamers as most stupid game EVER.

 

As for D'n'D system... Did you noticed that TOR is not turn based RPG? Were player can calculate his next step or try to predict enemy actions.

Its a damn shame that you, as a 38 years experience gamer, trying to compare action RPG with real RPG.

[TalantM]

Well, no, people claim shadows can't tank because shadows have a high maintenence rotation compared to the other 2 tanks, and most of the shadow tanks (especially at lower levels) can't simaltaniously manage the high maintenence rotation and worry about multi target aggor and positioning and deal with boss mechanics, and if you screw it up you lose 4% dr on yourslef, 5 % damage nerf on the enemies and a 5% accuracy nerf on enemies so you're taking 14% more damage than you should be with 10% lower armor rating than the other tanks (which means you explode, or the healers have to work really hard to keep you up) and that's even assuming you can hold the aggro when you aren't getting off your channels on time.

[Levram]

All right, I'm convinced.

 

People are using the terms "bad design" and "unreliable tools" as cover for their true request which is "the game is too difficult for me, please change it."

 

<Zorz> cleared nightmare Dread Palace within three hours on the day of it's release.

<The Chandrian> picked up the 1 hour "Gatecrasher" title within a few weeks of nightmare Dread Fortress being released.

 

Skilled players are not only clearing the content, but clearing it with style and authority. The game's mechanics present no unrealistic barrier to them. Not potential missed interrupts, not missed Force Pulls, not missed anything. They blow it all out of the water and they correctly adapt to every situation the game presents them, whether planned for or not.

 

That is what SWTOR is asking of it's players. Some people step up to the challenge, and some people are frustrated by it.

If you don't like randomness in your games, take BuriDogshin's advice, go play chess.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Levram

[BuriDogshin]

Skilled players are not only clearing the content, but clearing it with style and authority. The game's mechanics present no unrealistic barrier to them. Not potential missed interrupts, not missed Force Pulls, not missed anything. They blow it all out of the water and they correctly adapt to every situation the game presents them, whether planned for or not.

And that's something I cannot do, and probably will never be able to do. But unlike some people, I am totally OK with that: I like having other players I can look up to and learn new things from, I prefer that you cannot count yourself among the best without making an investment in time I have not made and without having skills I currently lack.

 

Other people are not satisfied with not being top-tier, and if that motivates them to work harder and improve, awesome! But if it just causes them to campaign for making the game easier, so that everyone gets the Wings of the Architect trophy mount, I disagree.

[slafko]

If you don't like randomness in your games, take BuriDogshin's advice, go play chess.

 

I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

[Brewski]

Please, Oh Great Raid Conquerer!

 

Tell me a how making Pull, Push, Interrupt, stealth and combat CC will break your challemge?

Take my advise - play russian roulette. It will give SO MUCH challenge and RNG, that you will not forget for your entire life.

Or not... If you will be a "winner"

Because it forces you to adapt your gear, rotation and stim/adrenal use to compensate. It's not random if you get your accuracy above 100% when using the skill.

 

So your tank has to go in with a bit less mitigation for that one particular fight, meaning they will have to be near perfect with the defensive cool downs and your healer will need to be near perfect to keep them up. That's kinda the point. Have an alternate relic or headpiece to swap out for this one fight, or carry some accuracy adrenals to use in this one instance.

 

I understand a high level debate on the game philosophy behind using this particular mechanic. What I don't get out of this thread is people believing you can't get rid of the randomness if you want when there are several clearly outlined and easy to do methods to accomplish this.

 

tl;dr; If you go into the fight with a random chance of a wipe because you refuse to alter your tactics, it's no the devs fault that you wipe, it's yours.

[kirorx]

Wait; maybe I am missing something, but we discussing interrupts missing?

 

I certainly do not stack any accuracy, I have played all tanks since the beginning and I do not recall a single time my interrupt missed.

[MillionsKNives]

Way to dodge the issue. None of those is beyond the realm of possiblity, as far as science can currently determine, BTW. In fact, I've shot lightning from my fingertip many times, as have most people who shuffle their shoes across carpet on a dry day. It's all more believable than the Hero Who Never Misses you want put in the game.

 

Dodge the issue? There's no issue to dodge. The game isn't realistic, therefore arguments of realism are invalid. The force is not real, my character never eats, never sleeps, never has to go to the DMV, never has to fix his vehicle, my pets never need to be fed, they never die, they never get hurt, I have never once tripped or fell, I can leap 30m from standing still, I can leap 30m while in the air, I can teleport, I can heal people with my mind/ the force, I can shoot people with guns to make them better, I can take thousands of hits from lightsabers and plasma bolts and not die, if I die I can be revived instantly with no lasting effects, I can be revived instantly with no lasting effects but my enemies can't, I have killed the same bosses more times than I care to count, animals drop credits and armor, I have an unlimited supply of missiles, I can reuse the same adrenaline needle / stimulant / medpack forever without running out, enemies appear out of thin air right in front of me, and I can see myself from the third person.

 

But fine, you're right, a Hero Who Never Misses is much less realistic than a Hero Who Never Sh*ts.

 

Oh, and by the way, the comment about static was so hilariously stupid that I had to stop reading until I stopped laughing.

 

But anyway, is your issue that you want SWTOR to be more like Chess than like the Mother of All RPGs, D&D?

 

It's good to know that apparently the only two options are D&D or Chess.

 

Oh no, please tell us how terrible. Please explain the terrible difference between fiction where the hero can occasionally miss, and fiction where the hero is infallible and always accomplishes what he or she attempts.

 

It's quite interesting that apparently "interrupt cannot miss" is equivalent to "the hero is infallible and always accomplishes what he or she attempts" in your mind. Quite telling.

 

It's also quite interesting that you keep saying that my suggestion that interrupts never miss (in a video game) is unrealistic, and yet completely ignore the other abilities that don't miss. If I were to take you seriously (I don't) I'd expect you to also be railing against all of the other instances where "the hero is infallible and always accomplishes what he or she attempts". Things such as DPS never missing their attacks/utility, healers never missing, healers never accidentally killing their target (after all, doctors kill people all the time), tanks' taunts never missing, Assassins always being able to resist force/tech when they want to or teleport correctly, vehicles always summoning correctly, characters always moving where you tell them to, characters always jumping when you tell them to, and consoles always activating when clicked. After all, the game should stop being like chess and more like D&D where everything has a chance to fail, right?

 

Isn't the former usually written for adults, and the latter normally written for 6 year olds? Are 6-year olds who you think this game should target?

 

Nice strawman.

 

Over the past 38 or so years (yes, I've been playing multiplayer RPGs a long long time) I, like millions of other people, have spent uncountable hours playing a series of games where a 1 rolled with a D20 was always a fail. I never heard any of the adult players I played with complain about it: they recognized that it added drama and occasionally humor. I have seen a 9-year old rage-quit over rolling a 1 though.

 

My experience leads me to believe that your stridently-presented opinions on game design aren't shared by the vast majority of game players and designers. More people play games of chance than chess. A lot of us embrace the fictional risk of "rolling a 1" as a feature, not a bug.

 

Thanks for the history lesson grandpa, but it's 2014 now, the world has moved on from 38 years ago. You can get rid of your pager too.

 

People are using the terms "bad design" and "unreliable tools" as cover for their true request which is "the game is too difficult for me, please change it."

 

Textbook strawman, nice.

 

What part of, "my dislike for it has nothing to do with content being clearable or not, or being too hard, but with the design itself", are you having a hard time with? I can spell it out for you if you're having trouble with the big words.