Discrepancies in the "Nature of the Force"

[ZahirS]

EU aside, the Jedi seek to protect and serve at the Republic's pleasure, which is something I've never understood. For an order that seeks to preserve peace and defend others, why swear allegiance to a specific faction and neglect to help those outside of it?

 

The Galaxy is Big, and has a centralized goverment called the Republic of allied worlds, Jedi want to serve most and joining the republic just made sense.

[October]

The Galaxy is Big, and has a centralized goverment called the Republic of allied worlds, Jedi want to serve most and joining the republic just made sense.

 

Even so, not every system is a part of the Republic, and they at times may be in need of help. If they want to serve most, they'd operate independently, not bound by the Republic.

 

I'm not sure where I read or saw it from, but someone had said that the Jedi couldn't intervene because it wasn't part of the Republic. May be the FOTJ series, and Klatooine.

Edited June 7, 2014 by October

[ZahirS]

Even so, not every system is a part of the Republic, and they at times may be in need of help. If they want to serve most, they'd operate independently, not bound by the Republic.

 

I'm not sure where I read or saw it from, but someone had said that the Jedi couldn't intervene because it wasn't part of the Republic. May be the FOTJ series, and Klatooine.

 

The duy of the Jedi in most cases is the common good, so your point is kinda moot why would a jedi intervene in a world outside republic space, I see this happen on occassion as counselors in the example you give.

Edited June 7, 2014 by ZahirS

[October]

The duy of the Jedi in most cases is the common good, so your point is kinda moot why would a jedi intervene in a world outside republic space, I see this happen on occassion as counselors and thats it

 

'Common good' is galaxy wide.

 

Initially, the Jedi Order was hesitant and refused to be a part of the Republic. I can't quite recall what happened, but in time they eventually joined (and split up again I think?), and since then, the Jedi Order has been exclusive to the Republic.

[ZahirS]

'Common good' is galaxy wide.

 

Initially, the Jedi Order was hesitant and refused to be a part of the Republic. I can't quite recall what happened, but in time they eventually joined (and split up again I think?), and since then, the Jedi Order has been exclusive to the Republic.

 

Stop posting clutter and spam, common good of the galaxy is the majority of the galaxy, hence the jedi desition to be with the Republic, its really that simple.

Edited June 7, 2014 by ZahirS

[October]

Stop posting clutter and spam, common good of the galaxy is the majority of the galaxy, hence the jedi desition to be with the Republic, its really that simple.

 

It isn't post clutter and spam lol, I was initially responding to someone who claimed the Jedi are represented as peacekeepers to the galaxy, when in unfortunate reality it is just a single faction.

 

It's hard to accept the idea that the Jedi Order will sit back while people suffer on other sides, especially considering the Jedi Order doesn't always agree with the values the Republic imposes in the first place.

[ZahirS]

It isn't post clutter and spam lol, I was initially responding to someone who claimed the Jedi are represented as peacekeepers to the galaxy, when in unfortunate reality it is just a single faction.

 

It's hard to accept the idea that the Jedi Order will sit back while people suffer on other sides, especially considering the Jedi Order doesn't always agree with the values the Republic imposes in the first place.

 

Wasnt going to bother, but your wrong from a tactical stand point is only logical jedi allied with the Republic, not the Chiss, not the Hutts or Sith Empire

 

Jedi are serving most of the known galaxy.

Edited June 7, 2014 by ZahirS

[Ventessel]

It seems to me that the Jedi really exist for two reasons:

 

1) To guard against the Sith (who were originally Jedi, so... yeah.)

 

2) To serve as backup firepower for the Republic Senate.

 

For example, let's consider every scenario in the history of forever.

-Invaders threaten the Republic

-Republic military gets slapped around

-Jedi step in and beef up the Republic forces, acting as Generals, pilots, special operatives, and front line combatants. (Except when they have a hissy fit and split the order down the middle, ala Mandalorian Wars)

 

This seems to be the norm, rather than the exception. All the other activities of the Jedi seem to relate back to these two objectives.

 

Hunting for Sith artifacts? They're trying to make sure people don't learn about the Force and use it for things they don't like.

Mediating disputes? Sounds good, but in practice it seems to be sketchy. For starters, what legal authority do Jedi possess? We so rarely see them in this role. Furthermore, how are they making judgements? If they're sensing their feelings and trying to discern the truthfulness of a situation... is that evidence permitted in court?

 

Mace Windu says that they fight for Justice because it is the bedrock of peaceful mediation (I agree with him) but when you introduce pseudo telepathic warriors with the ability to influence the minds of others... doesn't that carry a hefty risk of subverting the very legal system they sought to uphold?

[ZahirS]

It seems to me that the Jedi really exist for two reasons:

 

1) To guard against the Sith (who were originally Jedi, so... yeah.)

 

Actually no, Sith do only exist to make Jedi life harder, on the other hand Jedi help others.

2) To serve as backup firepower for the Republic Senate.

 

Certain situations.

 

For example, let's consider every scenario in the history of forever.

-Invaders threaten the Republic

-Republic military gets slapped around

-Jedi step in and beef up the Republic forces, acting as Generals, pilots, special operatives, and front line combatants. (Except when they have a hissy fit and split the order down the middle, ala Mandalorian Wars)

 

This seems to be the norm, rather than the exception. All the other activities of the Jedi seem to relate back to these two objectives.

 

If that is what you think Jedi are like, what does it say about the Sith....

 

Jedi are scholars, historians, and philosophers the only ones with a wide view of things, so yes Jedi are good.

 

Hunting for Sith artifacts? They're trying to make sure people don't learn about the Force and use it for things they don't like.

Mediating disputes? Sounds good, but in practice it seems to be sketchy. For starters, what legal authority do Jedi possess? We so rarely see them in this role. Furthermore, how are they making judgements? If they're sensing their feelings and trying to discern the truthfulness of a situation... is that evidence permitted in court?

 

Mace Windu says that they fight for Justice because it is the bedrock of peaceful mediation (I agree with him) but when you introduce pseudo telepathic warriors with the ability to influence the minds of others... doesn't that carry a hefty risk of subverting the very legal system they sought to uphold?

 

Mediators is one of th jedi main attributes because it makes sense, a Jedi would clearly want justice for the common good hence their affinity for mediating disputes.

Edited June 7, 2014 by ZahirS

[October]

It seems to me that the Jedi really exist for two reasons:

 

1) To guard against the Sith (who were originally Jedi, so... yeah.)

 

2) To serve as backup firepower for the Republic Senate.

 

For example, let's consider every scenario in the history of forever.

-Invaders threaten the Republic

-Republic military gets slapped around

-Jedi step in and beef up the Republic forces, acting as Generals, pilots, special operatives, and front line combatants. (Except when they have a hissy fit and split the order down the middle, ala Mandalorian Wars)

 

This seems to be the norm, rather than the exception. All the other activities of the Jedi seem to relate back to these two objectives.

 

Hunting for Sith artifacts? They're trying to make sure people don't learn about the Force and use it for things they don't like.

Mediating disputes? Sounds good, but in practice it seems to be sketchy. For starters, what legal authority do Jedi possess? We so rarely see them in this role. Furthermore, how are they making judgements? If they're sensing their feelings and trying to discern the truthfulness of a situation... is that evidence permitted in court?

 

Mace Windu says that they fight for Justice because it is the bedrock of peaceful mediation (I agree with him) but when you introduce pseudo telepathic warriors with the ability to influence the minds of others... doesn't that carry a hefty risk of subverting the very legal system they sought to uphold?

And almost each time, the Republic ends up blaming the Jedi.

 

(Although, for many instances, it could be very easily argued that the Jedi are the primary targets to begin with.)

 

Which only furthers the point that for the better interest, or common good of the galaxy, the Jedi should be largely unaffiliated with any form of government and operate on their own. (I think just that was decided at the end of FOTJ?) The Jedi, due to their enemies of the Sith, constantly bring those they swear to protect under harm.

 

At least if they're not directly affiliated, they can offer assistance to anyone in need, as an independent agency.

[ZahirS]

And almost each time, the Republic ends up blaming the Jedi.

 

(Although, for many instances, it could be very easily argued that the Jedi are the primary targets to begin with.)

 

Which only furthers the point that for the better interest, or common good of the galaxy, the Jedi should be largely unaffiliated with any form of government and operate on their own. (I think just that was decided at the end of FOTJ?) The Jedi, due to their enemies of the Sith, constantly bring those they swear to protect under harm.

 

At least if they're not directly affiliated, they can offer assistance to anyone in need, as an independent agency.

 

The Jedi order most protect the galaxy at large, hence why they are with the Republic, hard to understand?

 

Jedi are not the "Catholic Church" and claiming they are serving everyone, the Jedi have a goal.

Edited June 7, 2014 by ZahirS

[October]

If that is what you think Jedi are like, what does it say about the Sith....

 

Jedi are scholars, historians, and philosophers the only ones with a wide view of things, so yes Jedi are good.

 

The Jedi turned a blind eye and defended a corrupt government, allowing the Clone Wars to continue for years, nearly bankrupting the Republic and displacing many groups of peoples across multiple different systems. That is all among other things. The Jedi are not without their faults, and as many citizens of the galaxy has said, the Sith (or whoever the Jedi are facing in whichever wars) are not the only ones to face blame. They aren't as black and white as you're painting it to be.

Edited June 7, 2014 by October

[Aurbere]

EU aside, the Jedi seek to protect and serve at the Republic's pleasure, which is something I've never understood. For an order that seeks to preserve peace and defend others, why swear allegiance to a specific faction and neglect to help those outside of it?

 

Jedi strive to protect civilization. The Republic is the best chance for a civilized galaxy. Of course the Republic can't cover the entire galaxy, which is why Jedi like Masters Fay and Antilles are around.

[October]

The Jedi order most protect the galaxy at large, hence why they are with the Republic, hard to understand?

 

Jedi are not the "Catholic Church" and claiming they are serving everyone, the Jedi have a goal.

 

Yes, in your words, the Jedi's goals are to defend anyone that the Republic deems worthy and fit, or anyone that holds interest to the Republic.

 

And yet, the Jedi couldn't defend the Republic from itself.

[ZahirS]

Yes, in your words, the Jedi's goals are to defend anyone that the Republic deems worthy and fit, or anyone that holds interest to the Republic.

 

And yet, the Jedi couldn't defend the Republic from itself.

 

Big words for someone so small, Jedi goal is peace and justice which align with Republic goals most of the time, that doesnt mean they are married in stone like you "think".

 

Affiliation means your affiliated to someone, not that cant affiliate with anyone else, the sith on the other hand are definetly married to the darkside hence their wars on Jedi.

Edited June 7, 2014 by ZahirS

[October]

Big words for someone so small, Jedi goal is peace and justice which align with Republic goals most of the time, that doesnt mean they are married in stone like you "think".

 

Affiliation means your affiliated to someone, not that cant affiliate with anyone else, the sith on the other hand are definetly married to the darkside hence their wars on Jedi.

 

There's no reason to resort to petty insults against me. If you can't engage in a discussion with me in a calm enough manner without getting heated then why bother?

[Ventessel]

Big words for someone so small, Jedi goal is peace and justice which align with Republic goals most of the time, that doesnt mean they are married in stone like you "think".

 

Affiliation means your affiliated to someone, not that cant affiliate with anyone else, the sith on the other hand are definetly married to the darkside hence their wars on Jedi.

 

Easy, there.

 

Let's not make this a flame war over whether the Jedi should be aligned with the Republic.

 

I was more interested in exploring what is expected of the Jedi during times of peace, and whether those expectations matched what was seen throughout Star Wars history (and if it is practical).

[Beniboybling]

EU aside, the Jedi seek to protect and serve at the Republic's pleasure, which is something I've never understood. For an order that seeks to preserve peace and defend others, why swear allegiance to a specific faction and neglect to help those outside of it?

Because the Republic for the most part upholds a just civilization.

 

But who said they neglect those not within its borders? Jedi in the Outer Rim is a common sight. But there is only so much you can do for unaffiliated planets and those controlled by governments who don't want you in their business.

 

Which is another thing, allying with the Republic gives them a legal mandate to help its citizens.

 

The alternative is to act as a group of vigilantes, which doesn't suit Jedi teachings.

[Beniboybling]

It seems to me that the Jedi really exist for two reasons:

 

1) To guard against the Sith (who were originally Jedi, so... yeah.)

 

2) To serve as backup firepower for the Republic Senate.

 

For example, let's consider every scenario in the history of forever.

-Invaders threaten the Republic

-Republic military gets slapped around

-Jedi step in and beef up the Republic forces, acting as Generals, pilots, special operatives, and front line combatants. (Except when they have a hissy fit and split the order down the middle, ala Mandalorian Wars)

 

This seems to be the norm, rather than the exception. All the other activities of the Jedi seem to relate back to these two objectives.

 

Hunting for Sith artifacts? They're trying to make sure people don't learn about the Force and use it for things they don't like.

Mediating disputes? Sounds good, but in practice it seems to be sketchy. For starters, what legal authority do Jedi possess? We so rarely see them in this role. Furthermore, how are they making judgements? If they're sensing their feelings and trying to discern the truthfulness of a situation... is that evidence permitted in court?

 

Mace Windu says that they fight for Justice because it is the bedrock of peaceful mediation (I agree with him) but when you introduce pseudo telepathic warriors with the ability to influence the minds of others... doesn't that carry a hefty risk of subverting the very legal system they sought to uphold?

Every scenario in the history of forever? This makes up like 10% of galactic history lol.

 

Your not taking into account the vast periods of peace the Jedi experience between these conflicts. What about after the Ruusan Reformation when the Sith were believed to be extinct? A mindset that pervaded for one thousands years. What were they doing then? Preserving civilization, peace and justice of course.

 

That is what all Jedi related activities come back to. For example what exactly has helping innocents got to do with guarding against the Sith and backing up the firepower of the Senate? Which they do on a daily basis? Very little.

 

And finally, I'd much rather trust a Jedi - an impartial, genuine individual who can see through deception, wants nothing more than to uphold peace and justice, and has spent his hold life training to effectively be a hero, than some dodgy senator with goodness knows how many ulterior motives and conflicting interests who may or may not be corrupt and definitely isn't impartial. And of course with great power, comes great responsibility. That's practically in the Jedi code.

 

P.S. I am of course referring to diplomatic disputes, as far as I'm aware Jedi don't have roles within the judicial system, however by protecting and assisting the Republic they support said system.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Beniboybling

[LadyKulvax]

There are many Jedi like the Watchmen and Consulars, those who spent almost their entire lives outside Republic space, such as Master Fay and many more.

 

The Jedi do not only serve the Republic, this assumption is on the contrary to canonical works.

[Ventessel]

Every scenario in the history of forever? This makes up like 10% of galactic history lol.

 

Your not taking into account the vast periods of peace the Jedi experience between these conflicts. What about after the Ruusan Reformation when the Sith were believed to be extinct? A mindset that pervaded for one thousands years. What were they doing then? Preserving civilization, peace and justice of course.

 

Slight literary license, haha. But during the periods of peace... what do the Jedi do? Seriously. Did they legitimately spend 1,000 years just mediating disputes between planetary governments and organizations?

 

If the Jedi are not inherently a military organization... why does the Republic turn over command of fleets and armies to them by default? In the Clone Wars, the Mandalorian Wars, Jedi Civil war, etc. the Republic military essentially makes Jedi into automatic generals and admirals to command their forces.

 

I find this extremely odd if the Jedi had the primary directive of preserving peace and justice. What qualifies them to be military leaders? Why would the even WANT to accept that role anyways?

 

That is what all Jedi related activities come back to. For example what exactly has helping innocents got to do with guarding against the Sith and backing up the firepower of the Senate? Which they do on a daily basis? Very little.

 

It seems to me that the Jedi spend far more time providing support for Republic military actions (be it against rebels, pirates, Dark Jedi, or foreign military forces) than they do... helping people. I don't see any arm of the Jedi dedicated to building houses, or feeding the poor. So what do they do aside from kill people and mediate disputes?

 

And finally, I'd much rather trust a Jedi - an impartial, genuine individual who can see through deception, wants nothing more than to uphold peace and justice, and has spent his hold life training to effectively be a hero, than some dodgy senator with goodness knows how many ulterior motives and conflicting interests who may or may not be corrupt and definitely isn't impartial. And of course with great power, comes great responsibility. That's practically in the Jedi code.

 

P.S. I am of course referring to diplomatic disputes, as far as I'm aware Jedi don't have roles within the judicial system, however by protecting and assisting the Republic they support said system.

 

This is a matter of perspective.

 

YOU, as a Star Wars fan who has seen the majority of the Star Wars universe through the eyes of Jedi or those closely allied with them, would trust a Jedi.

 

The average galactic citizen? They know VERY little about the Jedi. They're strange, secretive monks who wield a mysterious power which allows them to perform crazy feats of athleticism and mind control. Sometimes, they decide to be evil and take over the galaxy and thousands of people die in the ensuing turmoil.

 

Would you want THAT guy mediating your disputes?

 

I'm thinking of two primary examples of Jedi mediation, feel free to contribute other specific examples.

 

First is the beginning of Phantom Menace. Trade dispute between Naboo and the Federation... which somehow resulted in an invasion??? We'll pretend that movie made sense somehow and just take it as fact that Jedi are sent to resolve those types of situations.

 

Second example is in KotOR on Dantooine when Revan/Player-Character is called upon to help resolve cases involving various settlers and farmers who have grievances with each other.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Ventessel

[ZahirS]

Slight literary license, haha. But during the periods of peace... what do the Jedi do? Seriously. Did they legitimately spend 1,000 years just mediating disputes between planetary governments and organizations?

 

If the Jedi are not inherently a military organization... why does the Republic turn over command of fleets and armies to them by default? In the Clone Wars, the Mandalorian Wars, Jedi Civil war, etc. the Republic military essentially makes Jedi into automatic generals and admirals to command their forces.

 

Really you cant add 1+1 without getting lost in the way?

 

Jedi seek peace and in times of peace they seek inner peace and help others too

 

I find this extremely odd if the Jedi had the primary directive of preserving peace and justice. What qualifies them to be military leaders? Why would the even WANT to accept that role anyways?

 

Peace and Justice is linked to Action, hence why they take militia, medics or any other role when in conflicts.

 

It seems to me that the Jedi spend far more time providing support for Republic military actions (be it against rebels, pirates, Dark Jedi, or foreign military forces) than they do... helping people. I don't see any arm of the Jedi dedicated to building houses, or feeding the poor. So what do they do aside from kill people and mediate disputes?

 

They at as Healers or even advisors.

 

This is a matter of perspective.

 

No, you are clearly biased.

 

YOU, as a Star Wars fan who has seen the majority of the Star Wars universe through the eyes of Jedi or those closely allied with them, would trust a Jedi.

 

The average galactic citizen? They know VERY little about the Jedi. They're strange, secretive monks who wield a mysterious power which allows them to perform crazy feats of athleticism and mind control. Sometimes, they decide to be evil and take over the galaxy and thousands of people die in the ensuing turmoil.

 

Would you want THAT guy mediating your disputes?

 

Jedi communicate with the force, hence why most galaxy respects them because the force is a weel known subject for an educated citizen of the Republic.

 

And Yes, I would trust a Jedi.

 

I'm thinking of two primary examples of Jedi mediation, feel free to contribute other specific examples.

 

First is the beginning of Phantom Menace. Trade dispute between Naboo and the Federation... which somehow resulted in an invasion??? We'll pretend that movie made sense somehow and just take it as fact that Jedi are sent to resolve those types of situations.

 

Second example is in KotOR on Dantooine when Revan/Player-Character is called upon to help resolve cases involving various settlers and farmers who have grievances with each other.

 

Jedi excel at been mediators hence why the resolve most crisis without violence, when Sith aren't involved.

 

As for Naboo crisis: Palpatine was involved.

 

For Revan Dantooine mediation is exactly what Jedi do in their spare time.

Edited June 7, 2014 by ZahirS

[Ventessel]

Really you cant add 1+1 without getting lost in the way?

 

Jedi seek peace and in times of peace they seek inner peace and help others too

 

What does that mean, though?

Peace and Justice is linked to Action, hence why they take militia, medics or any other role when in conflicts.

 

I had a friend who majored in Peace & Justice... he currently works at a coffee shop. Peace and Justice is a fairly nebulous aim.

They at as Healers or even advisors.

Yes, military advisors quite often. And Jedi Healers are slightly less common than Jedi Generals, pilots, and warriors.

Jedi communicate with the force, hence why most galaxy respects them because the force is a weel known subject for an educated citizen of the Republic.

 

And Yes, I would trust a Jedi.

 

I don't believe that is true. Throughout most Star Wars media, the common citizen tends to react with suspicion or confusion when dealing with Jedi because the Jedi are an inherently introverted society. They raise their members from childhood, take a dim view of close ties to outsiders, and wield a powerful energy that they themselves only partially understand.

 

Jedi excel at been mediators hence why the resolve most crisis without violence, when Sith aren't involved.

 

As for Naboo crisis: Palpatine was involved.

 

For Revan Dantooine mediation is exactly what Jedi do in their spare time.

 

Frequently, it seems that when Jedi get involved, things escalate to violence even more quickly. This is due either to people's fearful reactions to Jedi (they are renowned as warriors, after all) or because the Sith gravitate towards interference in these scenarios.

 

So is it really that practical to involve the Jedi in those types of delicate diplomatic mediation? It seems that a well-trained, non-Force using arbiter would get better results most of the time. Especially if he could always hint at playing the Republic trump card: "If we can't find peaceful resolution... I may need to involve the Jedi. And their lightsabers."

 

Here's a question geared mostly for Aurbere, since he's the resident guru on SW history.

 

Do the Jedi have a mission statement? Some kind of clearly defined set of objectives? Is there a document or treaty, any agreement really, that outlines their relationship with the Republic?

Edited June 8, 2014 by Ventessel

[Aurbere]

Here's a question geared mostly for Aurbere, since he's the resident guru on SW history.

 

Do the Jedi have a mission statement? Some kind of clearly defined set of objectives? Is there a document or treaty, any agreement really, that outlines their relationship with the Republic?

 

Just off the top of my head (I'll look through my sources when I have time).

 

The Jedi decided to protect the Republic when it started to expand near and past Ossus, recognizing it as the center of civilization.

[Ventessel]

Just off the top of my head (I'll look through my sources when I have time).

 

The Jedi decided to protect the Republic when it started to expand near and past Ossus, recognizing it as the center of civilization.

 

Was there ever a formal agreement?

 

From what I see in the PT and TCW, it seems that the Jedi generally report to the chancellor's office. They operate independently but also accept missions from him (not the Senate, from what I've seen).

 

The Jedi councils seem to govern the Jedi internally, and occasionally handle outside disputes. I'm really unclear on how they formally relate to the Republic government.

 

And then there's still the question of why the Republic military generally defers to the Jedi during wartime, appointing them as generals, etc.