HoT Power Defined?

[tunewalker]

I remember us talking about how the HoT is very much an unknown character. The question of is he a Sentinel? or is he a Gaurdian? I would like to propose that the HoT is neither AND both. As was once said Game Mechanics are non-cannon but can give insight into a characters abilities. To me this means things like "boss immunity" and things like "talent trees" are non-cannon. The idea that this is a window into the SW universe gives me the idea that each of these "specs" are just what another person saw, and the HoT abilities in game are all part of his repitior. After all Jedi are much more well rounded then either spec in Game as such I am going to attempt to define the HoT's prefrences based on attack animations, in game cut scenes and minor based in game abilities.

 

 

Firstly Lightsaber Combat:

 

As the HoT is both sentinel and Gaurdian the question of does he use a single saber or Duel Wield, the awnser is both, but as we can tell from the cut scenes he has a preference for Single Blade combat. The HoT is a Master of 5 forms Shii-Cho, Soresu, Ataru, Shien, and Juyo but as all Jedi has his prefrences for forms and incorporates each of these forms his own way.

 

Single saber Primary Form: Soresu

 

This is the first Form you unlock as a single blade wielder, to top it off all of the abilities you seem to get as a "single blade" wielder seems to emphasize Soresu, though elements of other forms are in this I will cover those in the "universal saber used"

 

Duel Wield Primary Form: Juyo

 

Its clear from both the animation and the more aggressive attack style and of course that this is the first unlocked form as a double saber wielder this is the Form the HoT normally takes when wielding 2 blades. Its full on aggression while his single blade is the exact opposite of full on defense. The HoT taking advantage of either single blade defenses or duel blade offenses.

 

 

Universal Forms: Ataru, Shien, Shii-Cho

We can tell these 3 forms he has actually worked into all of his other saber abilities. When wielding a single Saber he often takes the Ataru starting stance and still uses a few of the Su Ma rotation regardless of form he is using. He often uses Shien Reverse strikes and style and riposte even with his duel wielding (Blade rush animation has one of his blades go Reverse blade) as well as prefering over hand strikes to others when delivering power blows. This Limited use of the Su Ma rotations seems to suggest a more strength based Ataru form Similar to quigon. Finally the ability to use the FULL Shii-cho whether duel wielding or Single Wielding suggests he uses it as it was intended.... as a fall back when nothing else works.

 

 

 

Force Powers, out of combat IE does not normally chain into saber strikes.

 

Curato Salva: able to heal Minor wounds, but incapable of affecting toxins or poisons

 

minor Precog abilities

 

and Good Force senses, though they could be fooled by cloaks (we see he fails to identify enemies as such until they reveal themselves)

 

Telekinesis used to levitate objects: We see him preform these several times against disarmed individuals or on scenery but shows clearly prefers to avoid using such techniques on in Combat Opponents.

 

 

Force Based attack: These are abilities he has shown great profficiency in chaining into his Lightsaber sequences.

 

Waved Based TK attacks though he required an empty hand to be able to Force Push (Blade Storm and Sweep)

 

Several Telepathic based abilities, such as 2 Variations of Force slow (Freezing and Exhaust) as well as the ability to enter some ones mind and paralyze them (Force stasis, Awe)

 

He was also adept in minor forms of Battle Melds and Battle Meditation (Force might, Insperation, Trancedence)

 

Other Alter Powers included Saber Throw which he used to either overcome the range of some enemies or to prevent the retreat of others (saber throw and dispatch)

 

Finally as a lightsaber specialist he learned the alter power http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Alter_Damage usually to alter the properties of his saber to set things on fire.

 

He also was able to use minor Force Shielding to both defend himself against dangerous attacks but sometimes defend his allies with these shields as well

 

He may have also had some insight into the Jedi version of Dun Moch (Taunt, challenging call?)

 

He was also incredibly adept at using Force assisted acrobatics covering great distances in a single bound

 

He likely had a slew of other common abilities such as Flash burn or the Force Body ability as well as some Force Speed skills.

 

 

I have avoided story spoilers because I am not great with the spoiler tag. If any one else wants to add in with the idea that He is both Sentinel and Gaurdian, and what we see in his attack animations and his cut scenes can help us gain insight into what kind of abilities he favored please do so .

[Beniboybling]

When does the HoT use battle meld or battle meditation? I think we are going to need video links for these.

[tunewalker]

When does the HoT use battle meld or battle meditation? I think we are going to need video links for these.

 

As I put in the () Insperation, Transcendence and Force Might (which are all party buffs Insperation being the most like Battle Meditation/Battle meld) suggest some sort of variation of Battle Meld or Battle Meditation as I said this is based on the theory that he is both the Sentinel and the Gaurdian sharing boths repitiore of skills but having prefrences based on stances, skill animations and cut scenes.

Edited June 4, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

As I put in the () Insperation, Transcendence and Force Might (which are all party buffs Insperation being the most like Battle Meditation/Battle meld) suggest some sort of variation of Battle Meld or Battle Meditation as I said this is based on the theory that he is both the Sentinel and the Gaurdian sharing boths repitiore of skills but having prefrences based on stances, skill animations and cut scenes.

Oh I see, fair enough.

[tunewalker]

Oh I see, fair enough.

 

Do you see any powers I may have missed, or any ideas as to prefrences based on cut scenes or animation or even in part "game Mechanics" IE he seems to use it often, IE low CD, regardless of single blade or duel blade (of course not including the generic "slash" and "strike" abilites or ones I already listed like wave based TK attacks like Sweep and blade storm).

 

I dont play a sentinel and only know it from videos I have watched of it and reading some of the skills so I dont want to have missed anything .

[Wolfninjajedi]

I don't think he could be considered a master in any of those forms...as again we don't know the canon about him, he could have just been skilled in those forms and probably just a master with 1 form using the others when needed. All in all, while nice, I still feel that we have to actually wait to see what in canon the HoT is actually capable of.

[tunewalker]

I don't think he could be considered a master in any of those forms...as again we don't know the canon about him, he could have just been skilled in those forms and probably just a master with 1 form using the others when needed. All in all, while nice, I still feel that we have to actually wait to see what in canon the HoT is actually capable of.

 

If he was a master of just a single form I would say it would have to be Shii-cho as it was the only form he used regardless of wielding either 1 saber or 2.

 

That being said I dont see why he couldnt be a master of all 5, we have seen that many people were masters of all 7 to a degree. Vader being a Master of All 7 enough to incorporate them all into his personalized form. Yoda, Cin Draligg. To think a person renowned for his saber skills (even the beggining of the arc seems to suggest he was far above average in martial skill for a padawan and only got better) would not at least have a few forms Mastered seems a little stretch to me.

 

Obviously this is in part an attempt to set up a standard to judge the jedi and sith in the game. Example the Warrior would have some similar talents but seems to Favor different things as well as having different force powers assosiated with him. The Sage and The inquisitor seem to be the farthest from each other.

 

I just dont see why some one cant be a master of multiple forms we have precendence of that existing else where. Even people who largely were practitioners of a single Form suggest that they have mastery enough in the others to train people in them if need be.

 

I dont know just seems a bit of a stretch to think he only has 1 form mastered (regardless of spec he always has at least 2.)

[Wolfninjajedi]

If he was a master of just a single form I would say it would have to be Shii-cho as it was the only form he used regardless of wielding either 1 saber or 2.

 

That being said I dont see why he couldnt be a master of all 5, we have seen that many people were masters of all 7 to a degree. Vader being a Master of All 7 enough to incorporate them all into his personalized form. Yoda, Cin Draligg. To think a person renowned for his saber skills (even the beggining of the arc seems to suggest he was far above average in martial skill for a padawan and only got better) would not at least have a few forms Mastered seems a little stretch to me.

 

Obviously this is in part an attempt to set up a standard to judge the jedi and sith in the game. Example the Warrior would have some similar talents but seems to Favor different things as well as having different force powers assosiated with him. The Sage and The inquisitor seem to be the farthest from each other.

 

I just dont see why some one cant be a master of multiple forms we have precendence of that existing else where. Even people who largely were practitioners of a single Form suggest that they have mastery enough in the others to train people in them if need be.

 

I dont know just seems a bit of a stretch to think he only has 1 form mastered (regardless of spec he always has at least 2.)

 

Not saying he can't be, but...we don't know the actual canon about him. What is in game, doesn't necessarily mean it translates into canon.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

I'd say that the HoT is probably a master of his lightsaber forms, given that he became a Jedi Master for his martial prowess. At the very least I am confident he mastered at least one, it would have been a prerequisite.

[tunewalker]

Not saying he can't be, but...we don't know the actual canon about him. What is in game, doesn't necessarily mean it translates into canon.

 

As I said this is base on the idea that the game mechanics DO give insight into how the character was, and we both know jedi are more versitile then 1 saber and heavy armor OR 2 sabers and medium, so its based on the idea that he is both Gaurdian and Sentinel and that both are true just that one person saw the hero and saw him do one thing and another saw him do something else, but it was likely all just him adapting to the situation

 

An arguement further for his mastery of multiple forms, by the time he lands on Tython alone he had already bested most of his masters according to the story. He was already a Master duelist as a Padawan and we know from several other cut scenes that he does spend much of his time honing his saber skills and combat effectiveness.

[ArenCordial]

Just to throw this out there since I feel like it really highlights the HoT's strength.

 

The HoT seems utterly unaffected by Dromund Kaas and the Dark Temple.

 

Considering the lengths that the Sith Emperor went to turn that place into a massive dark side nexus, to the point that millennia later in Ascension Ben, Jaina, and Luke are all affected to varying degrees, not to mention Katarn straight out falling, its impressive. To then defeat the Emperor, who I think you guys ranked pretty highly on your most powerful Sith list, and of course do this at the height of Kaas' power should speak volumes about the HoT.

[tunewalker]

Just to throw this out there since I feel like it really highlights the HoT's strength.

 

The HoT seems utterly unaffected by Dromund Kaas and the Dark Temple.

 

Considering the lengths that the Sith Emperor went to turn that place into a massive dark side nexus, to the point that millennia later in Ascension Ben, Jaina, and Luke are all affected to varying degrees, not to mention Katarn straight out falling, its impressive. To then defeat the Emperor, who I think you guys ranked pretty highly on your most powerful Sith list, and of course do this at the height of Kaas' power should speak volumes about the HoT.

 

 

Its suggested that the spirit of Orgos Din that allowed the Hero to break free of the emperor was allowing him to be unaffected by the nexus.

 

Edited June 5, 2014 by tunewalker

[ArenCordial]

Educated guessing or dialogue I missed? It was my understanding spirits didn't fair well in nexus' of opposite alignment. I'm not sure Orgus was powerful enough to do that. Kenobi couldn't aid Luke against Vader in a neutral setting in ESB for example. Edited June 5, 2014 by ArenCordial

[tunewalker]

Educated guessing or dialogue I missed? It was my understanding spirits didn't fair well in nexus' of opposite alignment. I'm not sure Orgus was powerful enough to do that. Kenobi couldn't aid Luke against Vader in a neutral setting in ESB for example.

 

educated guessing, after all the spirit broke him out of the dark sides control to begin with. That could have some how steeped the hero enough into the light that a DS nexus would have no affect on him. Its theoretical.

[ArenCordial]

educated guessing, after all the spirit broke him out of the dark sides control to begin with. That could have some how steeped the hero enough into the light that a DS nexus would have no affect on him. Its theoretical.

 

 

I had a different read on that scene. It was less Din breaking him out and more Din getting through to true HoT so the HoT could realize what was going on and summon his will to fight and break the Emperor's hold on him.

 

The HoT was basically knocked out and defenseless after the Jedi Strike Team was defeated, that gave the Emperor a huge opportunity to dominate the Hero with no resistance to the point where the HoT really didn't know what was going on until Orgus got through to him. Considering Kira was able to do the same I'd credit the actual strength involved to the HoT.

 

It seems far more likely at least to me that potentially the greatest hero and force sensitive in several generations was able to throw off the effects than that of the spirit of a somewhat average Jedi Master with a habit of biting off more than he can chew.

 

 

Edited June 5, 2014 by ArenCordial

[tunewalker]

I had a different read on that scene. It was less Din breaking him out and more Din getting through to true HoT so the HoT could realize what was going on and summon his will to fight and break the Emperor's hold on him.

 

The HoT was basically knocked out and defenseless after the Jedi Strike Team was defeated, that gave the Emperor a huge opportunity to dominate the Hero with no resistance to the point where the HoT really didn't know what was going on until Orgus got through to him. Considering Kira was able to do the same I'd credit the actual strength involved to the HoT.

 

It seems far more likely at least to me that potentially the greatest hero and force sensitive in several generations was able to throw off the effects than that of the spirit of a somewhat average Jedi Master with a habit of biting off more than he can chew.

 

 

 

see the issue with that thought is there were several other powerful Jedi that got captured (every memeber of the strike team save for the hero himself) and they all failed to break the grip of the emperor, also noted is that they all said every one of them would fall pray to the emerpors mind manipulation if they went with the Hero including Kira. It seems pretty far fetched that some one would be able to resist a Nexus and the emperors mind control powers and still be able to fight especially with how powerful we know the emperor is. No is that good in essence, thus an explination needs to be there.

 

Qui Gon is an example of an average master becoming MUCH more then he was when he was alive. Trancending the physical plain has a tendency to change some one and Orgis seems to be the biggest example of that leading the JK all the way through the story.

 

 

Edit: also Getting through to and breaking out of seems to be semantics, had the spirit of orgis din not been there , it is highly doubtful that HoT would have broken free. Orgis's spirit was trying to get through to him and eventually did had the HoT not had a voice trying to steer him away from darkness he may never have found himself returning to the light.

 

Edited June 5, 2014 by tunewalker

[ArenCordial]

see the issue with that thought is there were several other powerful Jedi that got captured (every memeber of the strike team save for the hero himself) and they all failed to break the grip of the emperor, also noted is that they all said every one of them would fall pray to the emerpors mind manipulation if they went with the Hero including Kira. It seems pretty far fetched that some one would be able to resist a Nexus and the emperors mind control powers and still be able to fight especially with how powerful we know the emperor is. No is that good in essence, thus an explination needs to be there.

 

Qui Gon is an example of an average master becoming MUCH more then he was when he was alive. Trancending the physical plain has a tendency to change some one and Orgis seems to be the biggest example of that leading the JK all the way through the story.

 

 

Edit: also Getting through to and breaking out of seems to be semantics, had the spirit of orgis din not been there , it is highly doubtful that HoT would have broken free. Orgis's spirit was trying to get through to him and eventually did had the HoT not had a voice trying to steer him away from darkness he may never have found himself returning to the light.

 

 

Agree without Orgus the HoT would never have escaped. But here's how I take. Orgus is the HoT's spirit advisor, him reaching out to the HoT is essentially Kenobi telling Luke to "Use the Force" except in this case its more like "wake up and get moving."

 

Now you bring up Qui-Gon as a good example but lets think about something what do these Force Spirits ever really do? Typically its to offer a warning or dispense advice not to take an make an actual use of power. Otherwise Kenobi could have taken the shot to destroy the Death Star through Luke, but that's not what happened. In fact typically the only time we see this mold be broken is usually involving one of the following things: A similarly aligned Nexus (Dark Side temples), being in the tomb/near corpse of a Sith Spirit (Tombs of Korriban), or an artifact of some kind (like Kiber Crystal, Sith Amulet, etc). Otherwise why doesn't Yoda throw out some help on the DSII? Why does spirit Luke decided to crush Krayt for Cade? Why doesn't Qu-Rahn give anything other than advice to Katarn? Why does Kenobi, a more powerful master than Jinn, tell Luke he can't interfere? What makes Orgus different? Truth is nothing really, Orgus is just there to keep the Knight on the path.

 

Frankly the can't interfere line is the big thing here. Spirits can tether themselves to people but are restricted in what they can accomplish it seems without certain items/locations to boost their ability. That's why I'd argue while Orgus is absolutely vital to the HoT's success, its still the HoT's strength and skill which are the determining factors. So yes, that's why the other Jedi couldn't free themselves until they had someone wake them up as well.

 

You said "It seems pretty far fetched that some one would be able to resist a Nexus and the emperors mind control powers and still be able to fight especially with how powerful we know the emperor is." Ok but again it seems more far fetched that a spirit, which in most of the EU are highly restricted in what they can do , can resist the nexus and break the emperor's mind control or a near unequal prodigy who actually happens to defeat that said Emperor?

 

At any rate its your thread. I just thought I'd point out something to include.

 

Edited June 6, 2014 by ArenCordial

[tunewalker]

Agree without Orgus the HoT would never have escaped. But here's how I take. Orgus is the HoT's spirit advisor, him reaching out to the HoT is essentially Kenobi telling Luke to "Use the Force" except in this case its more like "wake up and get moving."

 

Now you bring up Qui-Gon as a good example but lets think about something what do these Force Spirits ever really do? Typically its to offer a warning or dispense advice not to take an make an actual use of power. Otherwise Kenobi could have taken the shot to destroy the Death Star through Luke, but that's not what happened. In fact typically the only time we see this mold be broken is usually involving one of the following things: A similarly aligned Nexus (Dark Side temples), being in the tomb/near corpse of a Sith Spirit (Tombs of Korriban), or an artifact of some kind (like Kiber Crystal, Sith Amulet, etc). Otherwise why doesn't Yoda throw out some help on the DSII? Why does spirit Luke decided to crush Krayt for Cade? Why doesn't Qu-Rahn give anything other than advice to Katarn? Why does Kenobi, a more powerful master than Jinn, tell Luke he can't interfere? What makes Orgus different? Truth is nothing really, Orgus is just there to keep the Knight on the path.

 

Frankly the can't interfere line is the big thing here. Spirits can tether themselves to people but are restricted in what they can accomplish it seems without certain items/locations to boost their ability. That's why I'd argue while Orgus is absolutely vital to the HoT's success, its still the HoT's strength and skill which are the determining factors. So yes, that's why the other Jedi couldn't free themselves until they had someone wake them up as well.

 

You said "It seems pretty far fetched that some one would be able to resist a Nexus and the emperors mind control powers and still be able to fight especially with how powerful we know the emperor is." Ok but again it seems more far fetched that a spirit, which in most of the EU are highly restricted in what they can do , can resist the nexus and break the emperor's mind control or a near unequal prodigy who actually happens to defeat that said Emperor?

 

At any rate its your thread. I just thought I'd point out something to include.

 

Yes this is my thread, but the point of it is to bring in discussions like this. I WANT discussions like this in this thread as it gives every one an idea of what happened and what the limits of the HoT is this is good stuff. .

 

 

I think I need to clarify what I mean by "orgas Din helping him" as I said I dont think Orgis is using some sort of power or force ability, but with the spirit WITH HIM the HoT is so embeded in the power of the Light that the Darkside permeating the Nexus can not reach him. This is also partially likely to have been affected by his run ins with the others under the influence of the emperor. Releasing each of them allowed him to better understand the influence of the emperor and as I have said in other threads, knowledge and understanding are the path to power when talking about the force. Understanding how the Nexus works and how the emperors mind powers work along with Orgas Din's presence giving him peace of mind allow him to steep himself so deep in the light that darkness can not reach him regardless of how thick that darkness is.

 

So is it his own power... to a degree yes, but its less about his power and more about his understanding and his stalwart peace of mind caused by breaking others from the grip of the dark side and breaking the dark sides grip on himself.... If this at all made any sense to you.

 

Edited June 6, 2014 by tunewalker