The Question I Messed Up at the Vancouver Community Cantina Event

[WSRB]

Because many of the readers misunderstood what I meant and possibly didn't read my follow ups, I've added a section to the end of my original post that should hopefully clarify my intention.

 

Honestly, I am so not looking for easymode gear: I just want to feel like I'm still working towards something as I run through CZ-198 dailies for the 700th time. I am far, far more had-nosed about gear progression and group content than many assume: I think that gear progression should be enforced (IMO characters should have to unlock tiers of gear by having acquired the previous one); and I think that group content absolutely should require groups. However, there's really no point in dragging that into the conversation at this point when it's clear that I really didn't communicate my original intentions very well... again.

 

And just so everyone is clear about where I stand on this:

 

I absolutely believe that the most powerful PvE gear in the game should be exclusively the reward of those who have completed the most difficult large group PvE content in the game. I also happen to believe that those who choose not to run Ops should be able to continue to advance their characters, but just in smaller increments.

Edited May 21, 2014 by WSRB

[DarthTHC]

I absolutely believe that the most powerful PvE gear in the game should be exclusively the reward of those who have completed the most difficult large group PvE content in the game. I also happen to believe that those who choose not to run Ops should be able to continue to advance their characters, but just in smaller increments.

 

Your complaint is about the very nature of an MMO, and the restrictions you place upon yourself while playing it. Everyone is going to hit a wall at which point they no longer "advance" their characters, at least in the way they want, if they focus on only one aspect of the game.

 

The top-tier raiding guilds will finish the content - get the topmost raid on "farm" mode and have all the BiS gear - long before another is released.

 

The best PvP players have long complained at the lack of variety in the maps, are capped in gear, and rarely face a challenge in war zones when grouped with others like them.

 

It's the nature of MMO's that content can never keep pace with player consumption.

 

Now the interesting thing of it is, if you're willing to vary your playstyle - to consider playing more than a single facet of the game - you might just find that you can't outpace the content any longer. If you're strictly a soloist, try PvP or Space-on-Rails or GSF or, heck, even crafting. If you're strictly PvP, try raiding. And so on.

Edited May 21, 2014 by DarthTHC

[WSRB]

Your complaint is about the very nature of an MMO, and the restrictions you place upon yourself while playing it. Everyone is going to hit a wall at which point they no longer "advance" their characters, at least in the way they want, if they focus on only one aspect of the game.

 

The top-tier raiding guilds will finish the content - get the topmost raid on "farm" mode and have all the BiS gear - long before another is released.

 

The best PvP players have long complained at the lack of variety in the maps, are capped in gear, and rarely face a challenge in war zones when grouped with others like them.

 

It's the nature of MMO's that content can never keep pace with player consumption.

 

Now the interesting thing of it is, if you're willing to vary your playstyle - to consider playing more than a single facet of the game - you might just find that you can't outpace the content any longer. If you're strictly a soloist, try PvP or Space-on-Rails or GSF or, heck, even crafting. If you're strictly PvP, try raiding. And so on.

 

Your point is completely valid, and it's not like one should expect to never hit a ceiling in terms of gear advancement ever again. However, gear advancement in this MMO specifically has been designed to be far too fast compared to the rate of content releases, even under ideal circumstances. I have a few ideas on how that could be changed, but I'd prefer not to get into that topic unless it seems like the conversation as a whole needs to move in that direction.

 

Perhaps it does need to be brought into the discussion though. Maybe we need to be engaging the development team in a discussion about not just progression tracks for raiders and non-raiders, but on how gear progression as a whole could be better made to work the content release schedule so the it takes longer before players hit that point where they feel like they're just going to be spinning their wheels for the next six months.

[Khevar]

Maybe we need to be engaging the development team in a discussion about not just progression tracks for raiders and non-raiders, but on how gear progression as a whole could be better made to work the content release schedule so the it takes longer before players hit that point where they feel like they're just going to be spinning their wheels for the next six months.

I might be missing the forest for the trees here, but it seems the only way to do that (i.e. slowing gear progression without increasing the pace of content release) would be to make the end-game content more difficult.

 

While NM content is plenty hard enough, that only applies to the very highest tier of gear. To really slow down gear progression, the other aspects of end-game would need to be harder.

 

Prior to 2.0, there was a distinction between "Tier 1 Flashpoints and Operations (EV/KP)" and "Tier 2 Flashpoints (LI) and Operations (EC)". It was my hope that this distinction would continue, with both Tier 1 and Tier 2 content added to end-game. Instead, things moved in the opposite direction.

 

More recently, the devs are focusing on tactical flashpoints. This is beneficial for dps with long queue times, but hardly challenging. Perhaps HM versions of these will be added later that require the trinity, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

Now, with bolster in SM operations, another stage of gearing has been removed. The devs are moving towards easier, not harder.

[Damask_Rose]

I imagine that's more entertaining than grouping solo content... even though it's inherently contradictory.

 

So how far into group content do you think someone should be able to solo? The Heroic-2's on Oricon & Czerka? Heroic-4's on Voss and Corellia? Story mode level 55 flash points? Hard modes? Story mode operations?

 

Where do you draw the line at eliminating the group content available in the game? (Because once it can be solo'd by competent players, it's no longer group content; it's solo content.)

 

I believe you are wrong on that. People already solo H-2s and H-4s, yet people still group for them. People already solo lvl 50 hard mode flashpoints, yet people still group for them. People already solo lvl 55 story mode flashpoints, yet people still group for them. People 4 man ops, yet people still form full groups for them.

 

Some people will always test their abilities on harder and harder challenges. There is no tiered solo content. Until they make hard mode and nightmare mode solo instances, soloing group content will have to do. People don't stop running story mode and hard mode ops just because other people are clearing nightmare.

[DarthTHC]

Your point is completely valid, and it's not like one should expect to never hit a ceiling in terms of gear advancement ever again. However, gear advancement in this MMO specifically has been designed to be far too fast compared to the rate of content releases, even under ideal circumstances. I have a few ideas on how that could be changed, but I'd prefer not to get into that topic unless it seems like the conversation as a whole needs to move in that direction.

 

Perhaps it does need to be brought into the discussion though. Maybe we need to be engaging the development team in a discussion about not just progression tracks for raiders and non-raiders, but on how gear progression as a whole could be better made to work the content release schedule so the it takes longer before players hit that point where they feel like they're just going to be spinning their wheels for the next six months.

 

If your only interest in the game is gear advancement, you're going to continue being disappointed. As I mentioned, players will always outpace developers when the players focus only on one facet of the game.

 

Instead of focusing on gear advancement, why not focus on something else every once in a while? Do Bounty Week. Play some GSF matches. Play some Space on Rails. Try crafting. Heck, pop over to an RP server and sit in on an RP session. (Not random garbage tavern RP, but find a guild that's doing guild story lines.)

 

The game has so much more to offer than, "Yay, I got my 180 chestpiece today!" To limit yourself to only that is a disservice to the game and, worse, to your potential to enjoy it to its fullest.

[DarthTHC]

I believe you are wrong on that. People already solo H-2s and H-4s, yet people still group for them. People already solo lvl 50 hard mode flashpoints, yet people still group for them. People already solo lvl 55 story mode flashpoints, yet people still group for them. People 4 man ops, yet people still form full groups for them.

 

Some people will always test their abilities on harder and harder challenges. There is no tiered solo content. Until they make hard mode and nightmare mode solo instances, soloing group content will have to do. People don't stop running story mode and hard mode ops just because other people are clearing nightmare.

 

Right... so... where do you draw the line?

 

Because people do solo H2's. I can solo all of them. So I never group for them.

 

And people do solo some of the H4's. I can solo some of them and I never group for the ones I solo.

 

If I could solo a 55 hardmode, why would I ever group for it? I have a 0% chance of getting grouped with a bad seed, poor attitude player if I solo. As I add more players to that mix (who aren't guild-mates or on my friend list), the chances of me having a bad experience increases exponentially. I would absolutely solo them if I could.

 

So where do you draw the line? How much group content do you want to be solo-able? How far into it?

 

You've already said that people can solo Story Mode 55's. Isn't that enough for you? If not, why not and how far do you want to go?

Edited May 21, 2014 by DarthTHC

[WSRB]

I might be missing the forest for the trees here, but it seems the only way to do that (i.e. slowing gear progression without increasing the pace of content release) would be to make the end-game content more difficult.

 

While NM content is plenty hard enough, that only applies to the very highest tier of gear. To really slow down gear progression, the other aspects of end-game would need to be harder.

 

Prior to 2.0, there was a distinction between "Tier 1 Flashpoints and Operations (EV/KP)" and "Tier 2 Flashpoints (LI) and Operations (EC)". It was my hope that this distinction would continue, with both Tier 1 and Tier 2 content added to end-game. Instead, things moved in the opposite direction.

 

More recently, the devs are focusing on tactical flashpoints. This is beneficial for dps with long queue times, but hardly challenging. Perhaps HM versions of these will be added later that require the trinity, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

Now, with bolster in SM operations, another stage of gearing has been removed. The devs are moving towards easier, not harder.

 

Harder might not be correct term, but I suppose it's as good a way of defining it as any. The content itself doesn't necessarily need to be made harder, but perhaps forced progression might be a key: not just in terms of gear but in raiding as well so in order to complete the later stages in Ops player will have already cleared the earlier stages multiple times in order to reach a certain level of "gear rating" (I hate that term, please don't hold my use of it against me); and that could be achieved simply by designing an Op so that it is literally not completable in the lower tier of gear players would start running it in.

 

I also think that having the best gear come as loot drops might be a mistake: if you make the best gear available solely via comms then you can control exactly how long it will take a player to complete a set.

[Khevar]

I also think that having the best gear come as loot drops might be a mistake: if you make the best gear available solely via comms then you can control exactly how long it will take a player to complete a set.

Interesting.

 

It is true that it can be quick to gear up a toon with drops. Any guild that has DF / DP on farm can get someone in full 78s in a single day. And for dps / heals, doing it again a week later would get BiS.

 

Are you suggesting to remove the carrot-on-a-stick for operations? Or to replace gear drops with something else?

Edited May 21, 2014 by Khevar

[WSRB]

Interesting.

 

It is true that it can be quick to gear up a toon with drops. Any guild that has DF / DP on farm can get someone in full 78s in a single day. And for dps / heals, doing it again a week later would get BiS.

 

Are you suggesting to remove the carrot-on-a-stick for operations? Or to replace gear drops with something else?

 

Peeps loves their phat lootz and taking that away would not please anyone. But the loot drops could be designed differently, such as a wider array of unique vehicles, trophies (thinking about Strongholds here) and, more importantly in terms of progression, mid-tier gear drops. For example, right now entry level gear to the current DF/DP Ops could be considered 168/Elite gear and and you earn 180/Ultimate gear as drops in these Ops; so instead of 180/Ultimate gear you could have the bosses drop 174 rated gear (mid-tier), thus adding to the progression so raiders can improve via loot drops, but the best gear comes via comms, takes the RNG out of the equation in terms of BIS upgrading and allows the devs to control exactly how long it will take raiders to fill out a full set.

[Damask_Rose]

Right... so... where do you draw the line?

 

Because people do solo H2's. I can solo all of them. So I never group for them.

 

And people do solo some of the H4's. I can solo some of them and I never group for the ones I solo.

 

If I could solo a 55 hardmode, why would I ever group for it? I have a 0% chance of getting grouped with a bad seed, poor attitude player if I solo. As I add more players to that mix (who aren't guild-mates or on my friend list), the chances of me having a bad experience increases exponentially. I would absolutely solo them if I could.

 

So where do you draw the line? How much group content do you want to be solo-able? How far into it?

 

You've already said that people can solo Story Mode 55's. Isn't that enough for you? If not, why not and how far do you want to go?

 

I don't think there should be any artificial barriers. People should be able to solo as much as their skill and gear allows. It's not an issue that affects me since I'll never have the best gear, and I really don't care that I don't. Someone asked why a solo player would want/need better gear, and the answer is that they make their own challenges by soloing group content. Harder content that benefits from better gear is not exclusive to raids unless artificial barriers are created.

 

Your argument is that no one will group if it is possible for someone to solo it. If that is the case, then why is there any group content at all? If no one wants to do it for the group experience, why do so many people ask for more? Clearly quite a few people enjoy the grouping aspect of group quests and continue to enjoy grouping for that content despite other people soloing it.

 

It sounds to me like at heart, you are a solo player. Perhaps you are in denial Since you said you'd prefer to solo lvl 55 HM flashpoints, some have been done, so give it a try. You might decide you enjoy it! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4I_dLBtRqI

[Levram]

...instead of 180/Ultimate gear you could have the bosses drop 174 rated gear (mid-tier), thus adding to the progression so raiders can improve via loot drops, but the best gear comes via comms, takes the RNG out of the equation in terms of BIS upgrading and allows the devs to control exactly how long it will take raiders to fill out a full set.

 

Ok, as the Guildmaster of a nightmare level progression guild, I have to say that this idea would kill any interest that my guildmates, as well as the other top progression players that I know on my server, would have in the game.

 

We strive to clear the hardest content in the game for both the enjoyment of the challenge and because of the best-in-slot gear that is dropped only from the unassembled token drops from those bosses. We strive to gear every one of the eight members of our team into full BiS gear because that gear is, essentially, needed to clear the next hardest tier of content to come.

 

There would be no point in even running a nightmare mode operation for gear if it did not drop the absolute best version that was possible to obtain. Why would we waste our time in nightmare operations dropping mid-tier gear when that time would be better spent farming out 16-man story mode operations as an 8-man team to load up on Ultimate Commendations to buy the best gear in the game?

 

As well, the idea that buying the best gear with commendations would permit the developers to control the amount of time it would take to gear out characters is false. It would actually take as little as a few weeks to get a character into full BiS gear if it was able to be purchased with commendations. You simply run all your Alts through every story mode operation available, max them all out with 150 Ultimate Commendations, buy all the appropriate gear pieces for your Main, and then transfer all the items over with legacy gear. You Main spends their commendation on implants, relics and their ear piece and they're done with their gear progression...with only story mode operations.

 

Under the current system, it takes a minimum of 16 lockouts (i.e. four months) to fully gear an 8-man team. Everyone needs two implants and two relics, both of which are bind-on-pickup, so there are no shortcuts (assuming the 16-man version of the content prevents an 8-man team from clearing it, which hard mode Nefra failed to do.)

 

As a final point, assuming you are running operations in a set team, guild or otherwise, and the bosses have stable loot tables (looking at you hard mode Nefra and Bestia), there is no RNG in terms of BiS upgrades under the current system. You know exactly what token drops off of which boss and what gear those tokens can be turned in for. For the team as a whole, there is no RNG.

[DarthTHC]

I don't think there should be any artificial barriers. People should be able to solo as much as their skill and gear allows. It's not an issue that affects me since I'll never have the best gear, and I really don't care that I don't. Someone asked why a solo player would want/need better gear, and the answer is that they make their own challenges by soloing group content. Harder content that benefits from better gear is not exclusive to raids unless artificial barriers are created.

 

Your argument is that no one will group if it is possible for someone to solo it. If that is the case, then why is there any group content at all? If no one wants to do it for the group experience, why do so many people ask for more? Clearly quite a few people enjoy the grouping aspect of group quests and continue to enjoy grouping for that content despite other people soloing it.

 

It sounds to me like at heart, you are a solo player. Perhaps you are in denial Since you said you'd prefer to solo lvl 55 HM flashpoints, some have been done, so give it a try. You might decide you enjoy it! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4I_dLBtRqI

 

I'm a player who enjoys a variety of play styles. I enjoy grouping when the content is appropriately challenging and the players I am grouped with are competent. The latter rarely happens via random groups / groupfinder so I avoid it. The latter always happens when I group with guild-mates so that's what I do, for hard modes and operations.

 

People do the group content because a group is needed to do the group content. If all of a sudden you don't need groups to do group content, then it's solo content and not group content, right? Like I said, part of the reason I group for content is because a group is required to complete the content. If a group isn't required, it becomes solo content.

 

Take the H4's on Voss as an example. For an on-level party, that's group content. For a well-geared, intelligent level 55, it's solo content. And that's fine, because you not only need to have the gear, you need to significantly out-level the group content to solo it.

 

But if the same were to become the norm for the level 55 hard modes - if well-geared, intelligent level 55's could solo them - they would cease to be group content and begin being solo content.

 

So we're right back to my original question to you - how far do you think people should be able to solo into group content, which equates to how much group content do you think should be transformed into solo content in this game, which is an MMO and not a single-player RPG like KOTOR?

[WSRB]

Ok, as the Guildmaster of a nightmare level progression guild, I have to say that this idea would kill any interest that my guildmates, as well as the other top progression players that I know on my server, would have in the game.

 

We strive to clear the hardest content in the game for both the enjoyment of the challenge and because of the best-in-slot gear that is dropped only from the unassembled token drops from those bosses. We strive to gear every one of the eight members of our team into full BiS gear because that gear is, essentially, needed to clear the next hardest tier of content to come.

 

There would be no point in even running a nightmare mode operation for gear if it did not drop the absolute best version that was possible to obtain. Why would we waste our time in nightmare operations dropping mid-tier gear when that time would be better spent farming out 16-man story mode operations as an 8-man team to load up on Ultimate Commendations to buy the best gear in the game?

 

As well, the idea that buying the best gear with commendations would permit the developers to control the amount of time it would take to gear out characters is false. It would actually take as little as a few weeks to get a character into full BiS gear if it was able to be purchased with commendations. You simply run all your Alts through every story mode operation available, max them all out with 150 Ultimate Commendations, buy all the appropriate gear pieces for your Main, and then transfer all the items over with legacy gear. You Main spends their commendation on implants, relics and their ear piece and they're done with their gear progression...with only story mode operations.

 

Under the current system, it takes a minimum of 16 lockouts (i.e. four months) to fully gear an 8-man team. Everyone needs two implants and two relics, both of which are bind-on-pickup, so there are no shortcuts (assuming the 16-man version of the content prevents an 8-man team from clearing it, which hard mode Nefra failed to do.)

 

As a final point, assuming you are running operations in a set team, guild or otherwise, and the bosses have stable loot tables (looking at you hard mode Nefra and Bestia), there is no RNG in terms of BiS upgrades under the current system. You know exactly what token drops off of which boss and what gear those tokens can be turned in for. For the team as a whole, there is no RNG.

 

You're basing your objection solely on Nightmare mode, which can only be considered as a special circumstance and as such I see no reason to change the current method of acquisition. People aren't farming Nightmare modes for comms and gear to twink out alts; and Nightmare mode gear is not available via both loot drops and comms. Given it's highly limited availability, Nightmare gear realistically needs to be considered outside the normal gearing routine and as opposed to calling it BiS I would call it BiS+, and that's it's just a bonus for the few crazy enough to go after it.

[DawnAskham]

Changes I'd make...

 

It would not be possible to run current tier SM Ops and receive Commendation which would purchase current tier HM / NiM level rated gear, only current tier HM / NiM would drop Commendations which would allow purchase of equivalent level rated gear.

 

It would not be possible to craft gear equal to or higher than the current highest gear available in HM / NiM Ops.

 

As new tiers were added, gear would shuffle down the Commendation vendors and open up to RE for crafting.

 

As new tiers were added, Commendations received from running older tier content (original 55 SM Ops, 55 HM) could buy gear rated higher than the content completed, though never higher than the highest rating available in the current tier SM Ops.

 

Existing weekly missions would drop the current Commendations, with the exception of the Op Weekly mission would no longer provide Elite Commendations (again, they would only drop in current tier HM / NiM).

 

With these changes, anyone not running Operations would still have a chance to obtain the same rated gear as those running SM Operations, players running SM Operations would gain set bonus armoring and better optimized gear / certain gear drops (e.g. MH Wep), while only players running HM / NiM Ops would have access to the top rated gear sets / Commendation gear.

Edited May 21, 2014 by DawnAskham

[Levram]

You're basing your objection solely on Nightmare mode, which can only be considered as a special circumstance and as such I see no reason to change the current method of acquisition. People aren't farming Nightmare modes for comms and gear to twink out alts; and Nightmare mode gear is not available via both loot drops and comms. Given it's highly limited availability, Nightmare gear realistically needs to be considered outside the normal gearing routine and as opposed to calling it BiS I would call it BiS+, and that's it's just a bonus for the few crazy enough to go after it.

 

Well, I took you at your word when you suggested a gearing progression overhaul include, "the best gear comes via comms." Definitionally, "the best" currently means 186 gear from nightmare operations. No one refers to whatever the top gear is as "BiS+." The top gear in the game is always BiS, and 180 gear has now been superseded in that respect.

 

If you mean to suggest that commendations should be able to purchase optimized 180 gear, then you have simply transferred the problems I outlined for nightmare operations to the hard mode ones. Why would anyone invest the time to run a hard mode for gear when story modes could be farmed faster and across multiple characters for the exact same optimized gear purchased with commendations?

 

As well, as I discussed before, any type of commendation purchasing of optimized gear would result in the developers loosing control over the amount of time a player needs to gear-out a character. Legacy gear transfers short-circuit commendation requirements.

 

If what you're really suggesting is that players who do not participate in operations should have access to a greater amount of ultimate commendations so that they can spend them on non-optimized / no set-bonus pieces (i.e. Oriconian) at the 180 level as currently seen on the PvE class vendors on Fleet, then I am fine with that. It would have no effect on hard mode or nightmare mode operations.

[WSRB]

Well, I took you at your word when you suggested a gearing progression overhaul include, "the best gear comes via comms." Definitionally, "the best" currently means 186 gear from nightmare operations. No one refers to whatever the top gear is as "BiS+." The top gear in the game is always BiS, and 180 gear has now been superseded in that respect.

 

If you mean to suggest that commendations should be able to purchase optimized 180 gear, then you have simply transferred the problems I outlined for nightmare operations to the hard mode ones. Why would anyone invest the time to run a hard mode for gear when story modes could be farmed faster and across multiple characters for the exact same optimized gear purchased with commendations?

 

As well, as I discussed before, any type of commendation purchasing of optimized gear would result in the developers loosing control over the amount of time a player needs to gear-out a character. Legacy gear transfers short-circuit commendation requirements.

 

If what you're really suggesting is that players who do not participate in operations should have access to a greater amount of ultimate commendations so that they can spend them on non-optimized / no set-bonus pieces (i.e. Oriconian) at the 180 level as currently seen on the PvE class vendors on Fleet, then I am fine with that. It would have no effect on hard mode or nightmare mode operations.

 

There is no singular "silver bullet" solution to the present issues with gear progression in this game. My personal intent wasn't to try to redesign the system so much as talk about the issues.

 

Legacy ger in this game is a mess. It's a "cheat" that was probably overlooked until way too late to really do anything about it. Any overhaul of gearing progression is going to also need to happen at the same time as overhaul of the Legacy system.

[hallucigenocide]

i think the issue is pvp gets set bonus & raiders gets set bonus and those who do none of them get nothing.

sure even those who do normal wz's get set bonuses so why should'nt those who casually pve get some aswell?

me myselft i've never really liked set bonuses since playing ret paladin in WoW where the PvE end game bonuses tend to end up as passive abilities whenever a new xpac emerges.. showing just how powerful they can be.

[WSRB]

The more people have chimed in on this, two issues become abundantly clear:

 

1. This an across the board problem, not just for non-raiders: players are gearing up way too quickly in relation to the content release schedule.

 

2. Legacy gear in its current state will undercut any attempt at overhauling gear progression.

 

The thing is that fixing these two issues just means that instead of players complaining about content coming too slowly, they'll whine about gearing up taking too long.

[Khevar]

The more people have chimed in on this, two issues become abundantly clear:

 

1. This an across the board problem, not just for non-raiders: players are gearing up way too quickly in relation to the content release schedule.

 

2. Legacy gear in its current state will undercut any attempt at overhauling gear progression.

 

The thing is that fixing these two issues just means that instead of players complaining about content coming too slowly, they'll whine about gearing up taking too long.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree with the way you're looking at it. You say: "Players are gearing up way too quickly in relation to the content release schedule" The actual problem is not the gearing, but the content release schedule.

 

From December 2011 (Release) to October 2013 (Dread War) there were 7 operations added (EV, KP, EC, TfB, SvN, DF, DP). That's every 3-4 months, on average.

 

So far as I know, neither 2.8 or 2.9 will have a new operation. 3.0 may have one. We're probably looking at 12 months or more between the last operation and the next one. I doubt there is any good way you could "slow down gearing" to match this content release.

Now, before anyone gets all fired up on my above statement, note that I'm NOT saying there's nothing to do in the game, OR that the focus should only be on operations, or any other myriad of things that could be inferred from my post.

 

I'm merely stating that we used to have a certain cadence of operation releases that slowed down dramatically in 2014.

 

Trying to make DF and DP relevant for 13 months by throttling gear acquisition (even if it were feasible), would not actually benefit the game in any way.

 

In my opinion: how gear is obtained is just fine. It's merely that the pace of end-game content has slowed down. If that were to increase again, we'd be alright.

[WSRB]

I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree with the way you're looking at it. You say: "Players are gearing up way too quickly in relation to the content release schedule" The actual problem is not the gearing, but the content release schedule.

 

From December 2011 (Release) to October 2013 (Dread War) there were 7 operations added (EV, KP, EC, TfB, SvN, DF, DP). That's every 3-4 months, on average.

 

So far as I know, neither 2.8 or 2.9 will have a new operation. 3.0 may have one. We're probably looking at 12 months or more between the last operation and the next one. I doubt there is any good way you could "slow down gearing" to match this content release.

 

 

Trying to make DF and DP relevant for 13 months by throttling gear acquisition (even if it were feasible), would not actually benefit the game in any way.

 

In my opinion: how gear is obtained is just fine. It's merely that the pace of end-game content has slowed down. If that were to increase again, we'd be alright.

 

Please keep in.mind I am occasionally "opening my mouth before thinking". Stretching the current Oricon content out of over 12 months is not what I'm trying to justify or whatever. However, even releasing a new raid every 4 months wouldn't solve the issue. People will still use legacy gear to bypass lockouts and even if they didn't, large numbers of those players would still be running around in the highest tier of gear in a few weeks due to the combination of loot drops and comms, so they just farm the Ops for another 3 months until they get their BiS bonuses. Additionally, non-raiders will still end up capped out and under a glass ceiling within a month spinning their wheels for months at a time.

 

I'm starting to think that we have to begin rethinking the entire max level gearing process.

Edited May 21, 2014 by WSRB

[Khevar]

Please keep in.mind I am occasionally "opening my mouth before thinking". Stretching the current Oricon content out of over 12 months is not what I'm trying to justify or whatever. However, even releasing a new raid every 4 months wouldn't solve the issue. People will still use legacy gear to bypass lockouts and even if they didn't, large numbers of those players would still be running around in the highest tier of gear in a few weeks due to the combination of loot drops and comms, so they just farm the Ops for another 3 months until they get their BiS bonuses. Additionally, non-raiders will still end up capped out and under a glass ceiling within a month spinning their wheels for months at a time.

 

I'm starting to think that we have to begin rethinking the entire max level gearing process.

(emphasis added by me).

 

I think we need a more clearly defined issue. You're saying that players gear up too quickly. Too quickly relative to what? What are the side effects of quick gearing you're worried about? Boredom with content? Raiders leaving for other games?

 

The fact that many players are walking around in max gear isn't really a problem, in my opinion. It only becomes an issue if they don't have something to do.

 

I can only speak with the players I group with, but 4 months seemed just about right to us. Some time to master the operation, some time to farm it for gear, some time for a nightmare run, with plenty of time for PvP in-between. Some of us would use the new tier of gear to try and underman older content, just for fun.

 

I dunno, it kind of works okay, from my perspective, as long as you don't have to wait too long between releases (e.g. most of 2014)

 

So what's the issue with the current rate of gear acquisition you're worried about?

Edited May 21, 2014 by Khevar

[WSRB]

(emphasis added by me).

 

I think we need a more clearly defined issue. You're saying that players gear up too quickly. Too quickly relative to what? What are the side effects of quick gearing you're worried about? Boredom with content? Raiders leaving for other games?

 

The fact that many players are walking around in max gear isn't really a problem, in my opinion. It only becomes an issue if they don't have something to do.

 

I can only speak with the players I group with, but 4 months seemed just about right to us. Some time to master the operation, some time to farm it for gear, some time for a nightmare run, with plenty of time for PvP in-between. Some of us would use the new tier of gear to try and underman older content, just for fun.

 

I dunno, it kind of works okay, from my perspective, as long as you don't have to wait too long between releases (e.g. most of 2014)

 

So what's the issue with the current rate of gear acquisition you're worried about?

 

Bring it back to my original issue: under the current system non-raiders end up pretty much maxed for progression within a month. Yes there are plenty of things to do, but without that feeling that you're working towards something motivation to continue playing dwindles. As a progression raider, you should understand quite well what it feels like to not have anything new to work towards.

[Levram]

I can only speak with the players I group with, but 4 months seemed just about right to us.

 

This is how the progression players I run with feel as well. The current end-game operation gear system works well. 16 lockouts to get a team in BiS gear is just long enough to feel like only a minor grind. I wouldn't change anything to either shorten or lengthen it.

 

These players have also discussed how the operation release schedule has been terrible since Dread Fortress and Dread Palace came out at the beginning of October 2013. It is looking very likely that it will be 12-14 months before the release of a new operation. That is what is driving end-game operation players away from this game, not the fact that we're all geared up.

 

Nightmare Dread Fortress should have been released at the beginning of January 2014 (i.e. three months after hard mode) and nightmare Dread Palace should have been released at the beginning of March 2014 (two months after DF NM). The next operation would then be released at the beginning of May 2014 (after another two months.) That still would have strung the entire process out a bit over seven months, but I acknowledge that DF and DP are, essentially, two operations that that were delivered together.

[Khevar]

Bring it back to my original issue: under the current system non-raiders end up pretty much maxed for progression within a month.

I don't follow you. Non-raiders cannot get maxxed for progression at all, let alone in a month. Unless you're talking about endurance-heavy commendation gear? But even then, optimized grade 168 gear is better than non-optimized grade 180 gear.

 

Or did you mean to say raiders instead of non-raiders? If so, you'd talking about a guild that has players good enough to get the operation on farm right away, and enough time to run it over and over on multiple alts and shlep legacy gear around. That's how you'd get everyone in full BiS in a month. I don't think it's necessary to try and adjust gear acquisition rates around this playstyle.

As a progression raider, you should understand quite well what it feels like to not have anything new to work towards.

To be honest, the only time I've felt like I didn't have anything new to work towards was in 2014. The cadence of end-game content releases through 2012 and 2013 gave myself and my friends plenty to do.

Nightmare Dread Fortress should have been released at the beginning of January 2014 (i.e. three months after hard mode) and nightmare Dread Palace should have been released at the beginning of March 2014 (two months after DF NM). The next operation would then be released at the beginning of May 2014 (after another two months.) That still would have strung the entire process out a bit over seven months, but I acknowledge that DF and DP are, essentially, two operations that that were delivered together.

That would have been wonderful.