Removing the missile break on DF

[Devrius]

There has been talk of doing this in a couple recent threads and I thought it was worth it's own.

 

I think this would go a long way to balance T2 scouts, let's face it they have best in slot for all components, the best defense options (evasion is still the most, read only, reliable defense in-game), they have high mobility, maneuverability and the spammable Cluster Missile in a meta with nerfed engines.

 

The problem in just straight up removing DF's missile break is T1 GS, the nerf to BR hit them hard and losing their second missile break would be pretty fatal to that ship right now.

 

So as compensation I would change Plama Railgun's tier IV option from Melt Armor (which does nothing really) to a new skill that would disable missiles lock-on mechanism on affected targets for the duration of the DoT.

 

This would make Plasma useful, compensate for the changes to DF and give a T1 GS a couple new options:

 

- Dueling build: Slug and Plasma.

- Support build: Ion and Plasma, turning an ace into a flying paper weight with no missiles.

- Hybrid: Slug and Ion.

 

Or we could simply give Clusters an actual lock-on time and CD, right now you can just spam that 800 damage.

[tommmsunb]

There has been talk of doing this in a couple recent threads and I thought it was worth it's own.

 

I think this would go a long way to balance T2 scouts, let's face it they have best in slot for all components, the best defense options (evasion is still the most, read only, reliable defense in-game), they have high mobility, maneuverability and the spammable Cluster Missile in a meta with nerfed engines.

 

The problem in just straight up removing DF's missile break is T1 GS, the nerf to BR hit them hard and losing their second missile break would be pretty fatal to that ship right now.

 

So as compensation I would change Plama Railgun's tier IV option from Melt Armor (which does nothing really) to a new skill that would disable missiles lock-on mechanism on affected targets for the duration of the DoT.

 

This would make Plasma useful, compensate for the changes to DF and give a T1 GS a couple new options:

 

- Dueling build: Slug and Plasma.

- Support build: Ion and Plasma, turning an ace into a flying paper weight with no missiles.

- Hybrid: Slug and Ion.

 

Or we could simply give Clusters an actual lock-on time and CD, right now you can just spam that 800 damage.

 

Or god forbid you play smart and force people to waste their distortion field. Dfield is fine the way it is now. This doesn't even remotely make plasma useful. Plasma isn't worthless because of evasion, it's worthless because the DoT is easily dodged, and this is an engine related problem, so unless you want to unify shields, which nobody wants, you're not going to make plasma viable, furthermore, this change would be about as useful as EMP. Read not. It's a minor annoyance but doesn't do enough to consider it worth using.

 

Furthermore, the lock-on time is a balancing mechanic against distortion field. You would be buffing clusters dramatically if you removed distortion fields missile break. Overall this thread is filled with really bad ideas which would break the game and make the solo experience even more unbearable than people are complaining about, while I prefer to balance with the multiplayer component in mind, I also don't like how many anti-premade comments people make and I can only see people getting more pissed off of any and all of these changes.

[SammyGStatus]

Ya... no. Missile lock for DF is completely fine. Scouts aren't a problem for a GS if we aren't being focused / distracted. Strikes can tear apart a scout with quads and CF. If you only gave 1 missile lock to GSs, they wouldn't be playable because of the cluster spam. As is, I already spend way too much of my time evading and flying after popping my missile breaks AND STILL TAKE CLUSTER DAMAGE. If you're having trouble landing a missile on a scout or a GS, you just need to work instead of QQ about how missile breaks are OP. There really is no issue whatsoever with the 2 missile locks (and vs. a strike - the trade off is you actually have the ability to absorb a few missiles before you get zerged. The other two classes in this discussion (GS and Scout) don't...)

 

Plasma is and forever will be (assuming there isn't a buff... but damage now > damage later, much like money) worthless compared to any combination that has ion + slug . Don't get me wrong - I've died to plasma before, but I'm not worried about plasma users. In my opinion, they're sacrificing the best CC in the game and the major deterant to T2 scouts (Running Wingman + Ion means you'll actually hit the damn scout and stop the regen, which hopefully will enable a BR out of danger to turn and pop another regen stop + drain some more energy. With plasma you have.... a lingering effect that doesn't always provide the kill that I've become accustomed to with slug (16% crit chance = 1/6 chance to do 2400 dmg), which will one shot scouts. Anyone not using an ion / slug build is willingly giving away the single advantage to using a gunship for defense (And for those who don't use it, you're the guy that Bronn beat when Tyrion was in the Vale - honorable, and dead).

[okiobe]

The more post I read about the DF missile break the more I feel it is just QQ from strikes. DF missile break doesn't affect gunships effectiveness nor does it affect bombers effectiveness. This leaves only scouts and strikes. Since scouts have rocket pods or clusters as the most used type I feel this QQ is coming from strikes using concussions or protons.

 

The problem is that there isn't anything wrong with the offensive power of strikes. If anything they need a buff to survivability and defense (more the type 1 strike than the type 2). If you are having trouble landing missiles, learn to get in range and use your lasers. There is a high probability that a scout will use their defensive cooldowns when they lose their shields to laser fire giving you the opportunity to finish them with a missile.

 

Let's stop the QQ of people who want to just sit at 5-10km and spam their right mouse button.

[Kalphitis]

Or god forbid you play smart and force people to waste their distortion field..

 

No, God forbid scouts should only have one missile break, and be forced to use their greater speed/maneuverability and skill/experience to work on dodging missiles.

 

You really think scouts should just hit 1 button if their engine ability is on cooldown?

 

You really think the fault is with strike fighters not playing 'smart' enough?

 

Furthermore, the lock-on time is a balancing mechanic against distortion field. You would be buffing clusters dramatically if you removed distortion fields missile break.

 

Oh I see, so it would not be cool for scouts to have to put up with missile cluster spam with only one missile break. Strike fighters have to (which, again, are slower and less maneuverable), and they don't seem to have a problem with cluster missiles, but I'm sure this will magically become a huge problem for scouts.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Kalphitis

[tommmsunb]

No, God forbid scouts should only have one missile break, and be forced to use their greater speed/maneuverability and skill/experience to work on dodging missiles.

 

You really think scouts should just hit 1 button if their engine ability is on cooldown?

 

You really think the fault is with strike fighters not playing 'smart' enough?

 

 

 

Oh I see, so it would not be cool for scouts to have to put up with missile cluster spam with only one missile break. Strike fighters have to (which, again, are slower and less maneuverable), and they don't seem to have a problem with cluster missiles, but I'm sure this will magically become a huge problem for scouts.

 

Strikes have over twice the EHP of Scouts, this argument isn't even remotely relevant, and yes, I also play a strike fighter. I know how easy it is to hit scouts, It is no where near as hard as you guys are making it out to be.

[SammyGStatus]

Another case of L2P it seems. The idea is just wrong, and would hurt the wrong people more (GSs)

[Kalphitis]

Ya... no. Missile lock for DF is completely fine. .... Strikes can tear apart a scout with quads and CF.

 

What amazing logic. Can't argue with that.

 

There really is no issue whatsoever with the 2 missile locks (and vs. a strike - the trade off is you actually have the ability to absorb a few missiles before you get zerged. The other two classes in this discussion (GS and Scout) don't...)

 

Oh I see. Because scouts are more squishy than strike fighters, that's why they deserve two missile breaks.

 

I thought scouts were given greater speed and maneuverability to make up for their squishy-ness. But yea, clearly they need the DF handicap also in case they're not skilled enough to make use of their greater mobility.

[Kalphitis]

Another case of L2P it seems. The idea is just wrong, and would hurt the wrong people more (GSs)

 

I think most people will admit it's lame for scouts. You keep falling back on the GS argument. Look, I get it, maybe we make concessions for gunships if the nerf were to be implemented. The OP's plasma recommendation doesn't make a lot of sense, but I'm sure there's something out there.

[SammyGStatus]

I thought scouts were given greater speed and maneuverability to make up for their squishy-ness. But yea, clearly they need the DF handicap also in case they're not skilled enough to make use of their greater mobility.

 

Scout v scout will still be dealing with clusters. I think I could evade most missile locks on my scout just from flying, but the point is that the nerf affects more than the target audience and wouldn't help. Locking on missiles can't be hard if someone who isn't an <insert ship type> pilot and they can do it, because it's really not as difficult as people are making this seem... Having the missiles do something worthwhile - that's a change that comes with upgrades, but 1 missile break will only stop 1 more missile... so fire another one and be done with it

[Kalphitis]

1 missile break will only stop 1 more missile... so fire another one and be done with it

 

Yes, 1 missile break stops 1 missile.

 

And 2 missile breaks stops 2 missiles!

 

And 3 missile breaks...oh wait the first one's cooldown is over, so a third isn't required.

 

With scouts, they're in a situation where defensive flying isn't required because they can just press cooldowns to make the missile threat go away. As opposed to strikes where you fly defensively and reserve the cooldown for cases where defensive flying isn't enough. To put it in classic MMO terms, the scouts get to stand in the red circles and keep on dpsing even though they're not tanks.

[mr_sim]

There has been talk of doing this in a couple recent threads and I thought it was worth it's own.

 

I think this would go a long way to balance T2 scouts, let's face it they have best in slot for all components, the best defense options (evasion is still the most, read only, reliable defense in-game), they have high mobility, maneuverability and the spammable Cluster Missile in a meta with nerfed engines.

 

The problem in just straight up removing DF's missile break is T1 GS, the nerf to BR hit them hard and losing their second missile break would be pretty fatal to that ship right now.

 

So as compensation I would change Plama Railgun's tier IV option from Melt Armor (which does nothing really) to a new skill that would disable missiles lock-on mechanism on affected targets for the duration of the DoT.

 

This would make Plasma useful, compensate for the changes to DF and give a T1 GS a couple new options:

 

- Dueling build: Slug and Plasma.

- Support build: Ion and Plasma, turning an ace into a flying paper weight with no missiles.

- Hybrid: Slug and Ion.

 

Or we could simply give Clusters an actual lock-on time and CD, right now you can just spam that 800 damage.

 

If your all about trying to balance Distortion Field I suggest the solution I proposed back in 2.5 days. You know when Scouts were OP to the point Strike Fighters were redundant.

 

That solution was to change DF so it causes Double Blindness, essentially any Scout that uses DF will receive an accuracy debuff proportionate to the evasion gain it receives. I actually developed this idea because Scouts were and still are engaging and more importantly consistently winning Head to head combat. Yes they need to blow most of their cooldowns but the consistency was such that I felt/feel there needed to be actions taken to discourage Scouts from doing head to head. Note: This mostly applies to QLC armed scouts, BLC Scouts would be mostly unaffected anyway by this change with BLC having such high "accuracy."

 

I've gotten less vocal for this as the dynamics changed so much in 2.6, also there was the lingering fact that GS also use DF and I do believe it is considered BiS. In the GS scenario I would consult the experts I'm really just a Strike pilot. If DF should be used as an escape aid then Accuracy debuff is not such a big deal. However if the best GS pilots are using DF to stand in oncoming fire and stay shooting then we have a problem.

 

Another version of this that also does not affect GS is DF causes a lockout so Scouts cannot get their own missile locks, this also addresses the Head-head thing though not as well.

[Kalphitis]

Another version of this that also does not affect GS is DF causes a lockout so Scouts cannot get their own missile locks, this also addresses the Head-head thing though not as well.

 

I could get behind this, or some version of this.

 

Really I think your double blindness idea is probably better -- having to suffer a 'primary weapon' accuracy drain if they pop distortion field. This wouldn't really change the GS.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Kalphitis

[SammyGStatus]

Yes, 1 missile break stops 1 missile.

 

And 2 missile breaks stops 2 missiles!

 

And 3 missile breaks...oh wait the first one's cooldown is over, so a third isn't required.

 

If it takes you that long to kill something, you're doing something wrong, or there is a class mismatch that needs to be recognized. You could also still fire your lasers at the scout too lol

[mr_sim]

Ya... no. Missile lock for DF is completely fine. Scouts aren't a problem for a GS if we aren't being focused / distracted. Strikes can tear apart a scout with quads and CF. If you only gave 1 missile lock to GSs, they wouldn't be playable because of the cluster spam. As is, I already spend way too much of my time evading and flying after popping my missile breaks AND STILL TAKE CLUSTER DAMAGE. If you're having trouble landing a missile on a scout or a GS, you just need to work instead of QQ about how missile breaks are OP. There really is no issue whatsoever with the 2 missile locks (and vs. a strike - the trade off is you actually have the ability to absorb a few missiles before you get zerged. The other two classes in this discussion (GS and Scout) don't...)

 

Not to mention that if GS looses DF missile break then it basically guaranties Type 1 GS uses BR for it's only possible missile break option, you should just remove the other 2 engine options at that point.

 

Plasma is and forever will be (assuming there isn't a buff... but damage now > damage later, much like money)

 

Pfft tell that to Ground PvPers who are all about the DoTs these days. I'll agree that generally Ion > Plasma, but I think Ground PvP has proven your money now > money later theory inaccurate. I'm actually going to use a tax metaphor here, SRG is a lump sum weapon all damage up front but should be taxed heavy for big numbers all at once. Plasma does an up front down payment then DoT, it's actually not "money later" exactly it's not a zero down payment like many DoTs are in Ground game.

 

I like the idea of fire and forget, as a successful Proton torpedo user I frequently will move on to the next target if I'm confident that if the torpedo hits, it will be a kill. I'd like to see such confidence to see something similar for PRG but It just isn't there, yes I have hit people and they've died behind cover but it is a random thing that seems to difficult/rare to plan out.

 

You mention Buffing the PRG I agree, probably needs a much bigger Bleed(burn).

Edited May 12, 2014 by mr_sim

[mr_sim]

Really I think your double blindness idea is probably better -- having to suffer a 'primary weapon' accuracy drain if they pop distortion field. This wouldn't really change the GS.

 

Errr I do believe Rail guns do require accuracy, and if you only filtered it to affect primary weapon then that's another nail in the LLC on GS coffin. Like I said if GS intends to fire during DF this idea is kinda broken, unless we can wholesale make GS immune to the double blind. Say because it's a bigger vehicle it can have more powerful sensors.

[Ramalina]

The more post I read about the DF missile break the more I feel it is just QQ from strikes. DF missile break doesn't affect gunships effectiveness nor does it affect bombers effectiveness. This leaves only scouts and strikes. Since scouts have rocket pods or clusters as the most used type I feel this QQ is coming from strikes using concussions or protons.

 

The problem is that there isn't anything wrong with the offensive power of strikes. If anything they need a buff to survivability and defense (more the type 1 strike than the type 2). If you are having trouble landing missiles, learn to get in range and use your lasers. There is a high probability that a scout will use their defensive cooldowns when they lose their shields to laser fire giving you the opportunity to finish them with a missile.

 

Let's stop the QQ of people who want to just sit at 5-10km and spam their right mouse button.

 

Well really it affects any ship using a guided missile type weapon other than cluster missiles. Even after leaving out the really bad builds that does leave you with type 3 scouts and some bombers joining most strike builds.

 

It's an ill considered proposed nerf, because it would be disastrous for gunships at this point.

 

Against scouts it's more of a close call. The heavier missiles can almost one shot a scout, so they have some need of protection from the heavier missiles. On the other hand, even with a single missile break, any scout getting hit by a missile other than a cluster missile either has a L2P issue or was deliberately taking the risk of getting hit. Functional immunity to an entire weapons class doesn't have a lot to recommend to it from a design standpoint.

 

As far as getting in close to duke it out with lasers against a scout, that's sort of like advising stopping engines and using proton torpedoes to have a turret duel with a gunship. Deliberately shifting the conflict to a state where the opponent has a substantial advantage is not a tactically sound choice.

 

With all that said, as a practical matter it's not a big deal right now because the number of people in scouts playing at top skill levels is pretty low. Until the theory of, "shouldn't ever get hit by slower missiles," turns into the practice of, "don't ever get hit by slower missiles," there are other bigger things to worry about.

 

In a certain sense, the distortion field missile break tends to counter itself. It lets scouts get into the habit of being a bit sloppy when it comes to missile defense, and a good strike pilot can exploit that sloppiness to land a heavy missile that has a devastating effect on the scout.

 

Besides, if strikes are buffed too much the FOTM crowd might come swarming over to the strike section of the hangar, and who wants that? You can keep your boost and BLC gentrification, we'll stick with the tasteless heavy ordnance lawn ornaments.

[SammyGStatus]

Meh, I still think plasmas are wastes compared to the ion / slug combo. Maybe if BW brought in a "Sponsor my helpless weapon" week where they gave us credits for using poor weapons, I'd try it, but in the current meta it's outrageous. If they buff it, cool, but I don't see it being as effective as my current build is.

 

Since GSs started using wingman (myself included), I've given up my ability to remain stationary. I used to pop DF and Running Interference and laugh at the other gunships who tried so hard to hit me but just couldn't. Those were fun times, but since the accuracy buff is greater than the evasion buff, it will only work against people not running Wingman. Granted, I have no idea what % of the population plays with that character perk, but not missing is better than getting shot at and having them miss.

 

GS needs the double break. Scouts probably don't because they can avoid most of the freakin targets just by being squirrely. If you can't kill scouts, I wonder if you're using the 6% accuracy crew member, cuz that could help. Guess the whole build would be in question.

 

And the money now > money later analogy comes from me failing Corporate Finance, with that being the only concept I could remember, which I still believe to be true today, but I'll ask my guild's official actuary to weigh in later.

[Kalphitis]

With all that said, as a practical matter it's not a big deal right now because the number of people in scouts playing at top skill levels is pretty low. Until the theory of, "shouldn't ever get hit by slower missiles," turns into the practice of, "don't ever get hit by slower missiles," there are other bigger things to worry about.

 

Well, to be fair the number of people playing GSF at a top skill level period, regardless of ship-type, is pretty low. So with that logic, we shouldn't make changes to anything in the game to make it balanced because there are so many new players that are easy to kill. And matchmaking doesn't exist, so why change anything in the game to balance it when by definition over 90% of the matches aren't balanced to begin with?

 

That being said, and I can't speak for other servers, but the amount of aces on The Bastion that regularly play in scouts is disproportionately high when compared to other ships.

[okiobe]

Well really it affects any ship using a guided missile type weapon other than cluster missiles. Even after leaving out the really bad builds that does leave you with type 3 scouts and some bombers joining most strike builds.

It affects them yes, but it is only an issue if they rely on the missile as their primary source of damage. If a bomber on live is using missiles I would say they are gimping their overall utility anyways regardless of their ability to hit a target.

 

It's an ill considered proposed nerf, because it would be disastrous for gunships at this point.

I don't feel they need more nerfs. I didn't even think the big escape nerfs they got were necessary. On a side note I think it was poor design to use the same components on multiple ships as it makes it hard to customize each ship to their role without gimping or buffing another ship.

 

Against scouts it's more of a close call. The heavier missiles can almost one shot a scout, so they have some need of protection from the heavier missiles. On the other hand, even with a single missile break, any scout getting hit by a missile other than a cluster missile either has a L2P issue or was deliberately taking the risk of getting hit. Functional immunity to an entire weapons class doesn't have a lot to recommend to it from a design standpoint.

Those crying for missile break nerfs say nothing about how effective missiles are against scout when they hit. Just some rough estimates: A concussion missile does about 1107 damage upgraded. 28% of that will penetrate shields (~310 damage). A scout has about 1000 hp, often less. This means each hit will take 33% of a scouts hull regardless of their shield strength. If the community insists on making this a missile game then I would propose removing all shield piercing from missiles or reducing the amount of missiles you get on respawn from death. Most sim games I played where missiles were strong had limited missile capacity and they didn't penetrate defenses.

 

As far as getting in close to duke it out with lasers against a scout, that's sort of like advising stopping engines and using proton torpedoes to have a turret duel with a gunship. Deliberately shifting the conflict to a state where the opponent has a substantial advantage is not a tactically sound choice.

I never suggested getting into a turning battle with a scout. But it wouldn't hurt to at least get in range to use your lasers. If I see a strike sitting at range and only using missile then I would say they are playing the class wrong. They aren't 'missile'ships. They are fighters with a strong secondary weapon.

[Kalphitis]

GS needs the double break. Scouts probably don't because they can avoid most of the freakin targets just by being squirrely.

 

Everybody has come to this inevitable conclusion. Scouts don't need a second missile break.

 

The OP had the right idea when he made this thread -- how to stop scouts from doing this without ruining the GS.

 

Keep in mind that it really has to be a simple solution...given that we're not going to get many more major GSF updates, I don't expect any more sweeping GSF changes that involve anything other than modifying 1-2 component abilities.

 

So we can:

 

-Take the missile break off of DF, and change the GS somehow to compensate

 

-Add a negative aspect to DF, so that using it as a missile break doesn't always result in a win/win scenario

 

Ideally, any change will make other shield options more viable. Right now any ship that has DF is always going to use it, no matter what.

[mr_sim]

Ideally, any change will make other shield options more viable. Right now any ship that has DF is always going to use it, no matter what.

 

I feel this statement is mostly true, the main reason in fact I have DF on my GS is the missile break as I don't use BR. However it is colored by the fact that DF is only on Scouts and GS. It's doubtful I would prefer DF on either a Strike or a Bomber, the reasons for which could be a thread to itself.

[Devrius]

Everybody has come to this inevitable conclusion. Scouts don't need a second missile break.

 

The OP had the right idea when he made this thread -- how to stop scouts from doing this without ruining the GS.

 

Keep in mind that it really has to be a simple solution...given that we're not going to get many more major GSF updates, I don't expect any more sweeping GSF changes that involve anything other than modifying 1-2 component abilities.

 

So we can:

 

-Take the missile break off of DF, and change the GS somehow to compensate

 

-Add a negative aspect to DF, so that using it as a missile break doesn't always result in a win/win scenario

 

Ideally, any change will make other shield options more viable. Right now any ship that has DF is always going to use it, no matter what.

 

^This is pretty much all I was trying ot get to.

 

the Plasma thing was mostly an example of compensation, after the changes to engines (which the devs did because they felt missiles did not have as much an impact as they should) everyone became more susceptible to being hit by one, all save Scouts.

 

If the devs have any consistency they will eventually get around to fixing that.

 

I really don't get where the "L2P" thing came from, yes I have problems one on one versus scouts but that's mostly because they turn faster and have better short range options then my Star Guard, not the missile break...

[SammyGStatus]

^This is pretty much all I was trying ot get to.

 

the Plasma thing was mostly an example of compensation, after the changes to engines (which the devs did because they felt missiles did not have as much an impact as they should) everyone became more susceptible to being hit by one, all save Scouts.

 

If the devs have any consistency they will eventually get around to fixing that.

 

I really don't get where the "L2P" thing came from, yes I have problems one on one versus scouts but that's mostly because they turn faster and have better short range options then my Star Guard, not the missile break...

 

Can you show me your build? I enjoy my star guard immensely and have no problems killing scouts. What components / crew skills are you using?

[Devrius]

Can you show me your build? I enjoy my star guard immensely and have no problems killing scouts. What components / crew skills are you using?

 

HLCs

Rapids

Protons

Retro

Directional Shields

Large reactor

Regen Thrusters

Frequency Capacitor

Regen magazine

 

Crews:

Copilot: Kendra

Tactical: Kendra

Defense: Nadia

Offense: Qyzen

 

Pretty basic build.