On the Limitations of SW: TOR's Class-Design vs. Tactical Flashpoints

[DawnAskham]

Tactical FPs do have a few design 'flaws', though I don't think requiring the trinity is the solution.

 

A few changes I'd make:

 

Spread boss damage more evenly across the group.

 

These are not designed to have a dedicated tank, and thus just because someone has agro, doesn't mean they should eat the majority of damage (though leave in avoidable damage mechanics - nothing wrong with bads being penalized for standing in laser beams).

 

Tweak the kolto tanks a bit, maybe reduce the direct heal for clicking the boxes and spread the total heal more evenly among the players in the group.

 

Alternatively, provide the direct heal / larger heal from the tank to the player with agro or the player with the lowest HP, not the person who clicked the tank.

 

Fix the collision / hit box issues which make it difficult to click the kolto tanks when the boss is near.

 

Re-balance the bosses in the current tacticals such that the TTK and overall damage profiles are similar at 55.

 

Some of the bosses (the meltdown beasts) seem to take forever to kill while doing high damage while other bosses seem to take a moderate amount of time to kill and do mostly avoidable damage (independent of group gear / skill).

 

The end bosses in the new FPs seem to be pretty well balanced with reasonable damage, most higher damage totally avoidable, and a moderate TTK.

 

Lastly, balance the rewards for the 55 Tactical FPs.

 

I auto-drop KDY at 55 as the FP is a waste of time for the rewards of Planetary Comms, low credits, no crafting mats, and no gear drops.

 

The Czerka FPs have a specific weekly mission, drop reasonable credits, provide Basic Comms (trade for Isotope), drop gear (companion or 53 alts), and have a chance at crafting materials.

 

The new FPs drop reasonable credits, provide Basic Comms (trade for Isotope), drop gear, and have a chance at crafting mats, pets, and speeders.

Edited May 13, 2014 by DawnAskham

[cxten]

In the specific fights I mentioned --Duneclaw and Enhanced Vrrrrblithingy in Czerka Core Meltdown-- you have to have them right on top of the generators or spore-pop things, where you get to find that the client often won't let you click the koltos because it thinks you're trying to target the boss --even though I already have him targetted.

 

It's a hit-box/collision-detection issue, (I think? Correct me if I'm wrong, not my area of expertise) and also really annoying. Better to have someone a bit "out of the way" --with respect to how much crap is filling their screen at once-- at a Kolto-station who can click it right away, IME.

 

Right, if you have the boss's hit box on top of the kolto station, you'll just be clicking on the boss, which won't work.

 

The suggestion to use the kolto stations as often as you can wasn't a statement that having others do it wouldn't work or be as good or better. It was more a "take your fate in your own hands" sort of suggestion, if your group mates are not to be trusted.

 

The kolto tanks are good enough and plentiful enough that if you use them as often as you can, you'll have no trouble taking the damage.

 

With the duneclaw, say, if you're having trouble with him being on top of it, I suppose you could click it just after his rampage, as you leave (so he's a bit further away).

 

-----

 

To be fair, positioning the boss like this and planning on when to click the kolto stations etc is a tanking behavior (same goes for my next little story below), so if you're saying you aren't interested in tanking, I can understand not liking doing this sort of thing.

 

-----

 

My enjoyment of the kolto stations: Some of the bosses are pretty fun to tank as a dps without a healer. For example, the jedi/sith boss in KDY. He does a knockback, so I like to position myself to get knocked into the kolto station on one side of the room. Then click it. Then move back toward the middle of the room and position myself to get knocked into the other kolto station. Rinse & repeat.

 

(As I said, this is really a lot of tanking behavior.)

Edited May 13, 2014 by cxten

[BobFredJohn]

IMO the whole point of tacticals is to allow DPS to get their basic gear easier. The problem with needing a heal and tank like in FP is they arent common. changing TFP so they NEED a tank and healer completely defeats the point.

 

If your struggling with running tacticals with dps then do different missions, farm some money and buy better mods. (bear in mind you have heavy armour and your own heals, my past few runs of czerka labs a sniper with 168 gear was carrying most of the tanking, with 2 other snipers and mara in the group, yet the "tanking" sniper didnt die).

 

Plus why are you running TFP at 168 gear? go do some ops

 

Thirdly, you said yourself your mods are vaguely right, well why not get the right ones to dish out more damage and help your group out DPS the bosses (as happened in the above stated run with 3 snipers and mara).

 

Final point: each of the boss fights have kolto's, why not use them? and if your dieing against the mob groups with 168 gear your probably attacking before your group is with you to support you, are you prehaps 1 of those people that runs on ahead, start a fight you cant win then moan the enemies are too strong?

Edited May 14, 2014 by BobFredJohn

[midianlord]

IMO the whole point of tacticals is to allow DPS to get their basic gear easier. The problem with needing a heal and tank like in FP is they arent common. changing TFP so they NEED a tank and healer completely defeats the point.

 

If your struggling with running tacticals with dps then do different missions, farm some money and buy better mods. (bear in mind you have heavy armour and your own heals, my past few runs of czerka labs a sniper with 168 gear was carrying most of the tanking, with 2 other snipers and mara in the group, yet the "tanking" sniper didnt die).

 

Plus why are you running TFP at 168 gear? go do some ops

 

Thirdly, you said yourself your mods are vaguely right, well why not get the right ones to dish out more damage and help your group out DPS the bosses (as happened in the above stated run with 3 snipers and mara).

 

Final point: each of the boss fights have kolto's, why not use them? and if your dieing against the mob groups with 168 gear your probably attacking before your group is with you to support you, are you prehaps 1 of those people that runs on ahead, start a fight you cant win then moan the enemies are too strong?

 

Christ.

 

Read the thread, for ****'s sake :/

 

I need the FPs for the [WEEKLY].

 

I have few problems face-tanking these guys on my Arsenal Mercs, and on my Snipingers (piss-easy in middle-tree), as those have much more bake-in defensibility than Pyro.

 

And I explained about the odd kolto-clicky situation.

 

...

 

On second thought, **** it.

 

2/10.

 

Next!

 

E:

 

It's "you're dying," by the way.

Edited May 14, 2014 by midianlord

[BobFredJohn]

^^ so like i said, TFP is for DPS who would otherwise have to wait ages for trinity group in normal FP's, your idea to change TFP into standard FP's COMPLETELY defeats the point of them.

 

If you cant hack them, dont do them. saying "I need them for the weekly" do KDY then, as with 168 gear your obviously not collecting basic comms, your just gathering the elite comms from the weekly, runs of KDY will increase the 5 TFP runs counter (i also found korriban incursion is extremely easy (easier than KDY IMO).

 

If you had read properly you may also have noticed I mentioned that most other people with 168 gear that I have met in TFP have very little difficulty. Learn your cycles, learn your boss tacts and just because you are specced DPS does not mean you cannot pop the odd few heals when things get desperate.

 

And I explained about the odd kolto-clicky situation

 

I believe the ability for merc is called "powered over-rides" or "hydraulic overrides." This ability allows you to move faster (30%) if the boss is on you and its hit box covers the kolto, when you first run towards the sand storm generators, pop the over-rides ability so you get there before him giving you a chance to click it. (I cant believe I have to explain this to someone with 168 gear, you should have a basic understanding of how to overcome small problems like that by now.)

 

btw, please read the 4th and 5th lines you wrote and reconsider the grammer nazi comment at the bottom.

Edited May 14, 2014 by BobFredJohn

[midianlord]

^^ so like i said, TFP is for DPS who would otherwise have to wait ages for trinity group in normal FP's, your idea to change TFP into standard FP's COMPLETELY defeats the point of them.

 

If you cant hack them, dont do them. saying "I need them for the weekly" do KDY then, as with 168 gear your obviously not collecting basic comms, your just gathering the elite comms from the weekly, runs of KDY will increase the 5 TFP runs counter (i also found korriban incursion is extremely easy (easier than KDY IMO).

 

If you had read properly you may also have noticed I mentioned that most other people with 168 gear that I have met in TFP have very little difficulty. Learn your cycles, learn your boss tacts and just because you are specced DPS does not mean you cannot pop the odd few heals when things get desperate.

 

You're so caught up in trying --And failing, by the way. Quite miserably so-- to cut me down to show what a 1337 player you are that you completely miss the point of this whole damned thread, which has been expanded upon extensively.

 

So how's it look from the worm's-eye-view, anyway?

 

I never said I can't hack them, I said that I don't want to be a tank when this game's mechanics clearly don't make me one, basically (at least not as hybrid healer/damager AC). Keep flaming me like that, then you will be reported. I am sick unto *********** death of people like you.

 

Find somewhere --else-- to go.

Edited May 14, 2014 by midianlord

[BobFredJohn]

I have offered solutions to your problems, however you seem to busy throwing tantrums to read them (threatening to report me after swearing at me when all im doing is stating why you idea would make TFP redundant, and offering solutions to your problems). Therefore I will explain this without expressing my views on people who struggle to use their class abilities to their proper use.

 

I have already said if your dieing on mobs its due to not staying with the group, so we will move on from that.

 

The main problem you seem to be stating is dieing to boss damage due to difficulty using the kolto's, a known problem, however one which, once the solution is know is easy to overcome.

 

The basic principle is if you cannot press it while the boss is close, get away from the boss.

 

Though this is easier said than done when holding aggro. As such a particular ability is used. A list of the abilities (names may be wrong so I have offered an explanation of its effects to try to explain).

BH/Trooper - hydraulic over-rides/hold the line - cannot be affected by movement impairing effects and increases speed by 30%.

Inquisitor/Chancellor - force speed - self explanatory.

Agent/Smuggler - covered escape/(I don't know) - moves forward 18m nigh on instantly.

Warrior/Knight - bit of a problem here as I don't have a lvl 55 mara or sent so i'm not sure what they can do. however I know jugg definitely has a leap to ally.

 

Example: you are holding aggro as your mercenary and you need some health, the boss is big so you cant press kolto with him near. You use powered overrides (name is probably wrong) and run off towards the kolto, bringing a gap between you and the boss so you can click the kolto.

 

The process can be harder if the boss has a leap to target ability (especially horrible as agent as their ability is instant and so will go on cooldown as soon as used). in this case you start to move away, he leaps then you set off to a different kolto.

 

There are the solutions to your problems using a (i believed, though seems i'm wrong) commonly known method. If you cannot reply politely don't bother.

 

E:

You said yourself your running it OP with 168 gear...so obviously you know its not designed for that gear. Why are you unhappy something not designed for you is difficult? Simple solution incase you cant be bothered to practice the above solution to the kolto situation:

buy/craft some cheap heavy/adaptive moddable armour

buy/craft some mods 140-156 rating

switch to the 140-156 gear whever you want to run czerka

ALL PROBLEMS SOLVED

 

I have also read all the comments posted, seems the majority of people posting on this thread hold similar sentiments to me, learn your class and dont trust your group to know what they are doing. You said yourself you have not run OP's yet, trust me you will have trouble without learning your class as most ops runners are rather elitist, refusing to take those who havent got a basic understanding of their class.

 

Above I have tried to explain how to use your class to overcome the issues you have listed in this thread (sadly theres nothing we can do about being grouped with people who wont press kolto for you, but just do it yourself). When you have learnt your class you will find they have actually been reasonably well balanced to be able to deal with these types of situations by correct use of your class abilities.

Edited May 15, 2014 by BobFredJohn

[Duniss]

Warrior/Knight - bit of a problem here as I don't have a lvl 55 mara or sent so i'm not sure what they can do. however I know jugg definitely has a leap to ally.,

Force camo for sentinels but thats drops agro

[ekwalizer]

The problem is not with the mechanics of these FPs. I run them on all three roles. There are several kolto terminals. Not everyone needs to be right up on the boss. Especially if you are rDPS4Life! Blow your chaffe and get away from him, then hang back and spot heal/use terminals.

 

You do have heals at your disposal. Use them.

 

In a 168 group in TFP/SM mode, with 4 DPSers you ought not have a very long fight in the first place.

[ekwalizer]

Certainly not going to argue with you on this one!

 

As for the rest, I don't have enough experiences with MMOs to know if giving better rewards for tank players is a good idea or a bad idea. Has something like this been tried before? Did it work?

 

It seems to me that people play the roles that they enjoy. Some people like tanking. Would you play a class in this game that you didn't enjoy, simply because it had better rewards?

 

So, they would have to program in OnHeartBeat checks to verify the tank is in the proper tree and these checks would have to occur throughout the instance. All of these FPs are laggy in the first place, so adding extra code every 6-60 seconds isn't going to help with that.

 

Without a periodic check, the system would be abused by folks who come in as tanks, then respec back to DPS.

[midianlord]

The problem is not with the mechanics of these FPs. I run them on all three roles. There are several kolto terminals. Not everyone needs to be right up on the boss. Especially if you are rDPS4Life! Blow your chaffe and get away from him, then hang back and spot heal/use terminals.

 

You do have heals at your disposal. Use them.

 

In a 168 group in TFP/SM mode, with 4 DPSers you ought not have a very long fight in the first place.

 

I do blow my Chaff Flare. On cooldown, actually (does nothing, in most cases). And Hyd. Overrides to kite the boss to where needed, the whole deal. Yeah, I know the procedure, I've done it often enough now :/

 

And, like I said, my Arsen/Gunnys usually have little or no problems with this, Pyro does due to less baked-in defensibility/utility. (You're going to take hits doing this. Sometimes quite a few. And hard-stuns on occasion as well, which HO/HtL doesn't protect against.)

 

I mentioned the geometry/hit box issues with the Kolto-clickies, and the fact that the one tanking the bosses needs to stay there until spore is popped, or generator is broken by Rampage, did you read those posts?

 

Yes, another person could/should be at a Kolto-clicky...They aren't always. Is that an artefact of he usual calibre of tunnel-visioning/situational-awareness-lacking SW: tOR PuG-player? (I look forward to the Lolstered PuG raids up-coming. this should be....Interesting. In the way the Chinese use the word.)

 

See that's the other problem with this kind of content --it doesn't enforce good practice/habits, and doesn't --normally-- punish bad ones, unless you do something monumentally stupid, and even then, the other three can pick it up and "carry" you regardless. (We shouldn't have to do this, by the way.)

 

Anyway, that's not the point of this thread. I'm the last person you'll ever see QQing for nerfs to difficulty. I'm the guy asking for Nightmare Mode flashpoints, actually. In fact, I also said in this thread that the SM difficulty should be tuned up, for the very design-limitation reasons stated, which is the whole point of this thread.

 

Sorry, i don't need ultra-1337 pr0z telling me to L2P, I know how to play this class/role and this content decently well, thanks.

 

I could re-iterate the whole point of the OP and this thread, but you don't get away that easily with me:

 

Read the OP and the thread, I was even nice enough to give not one, but two TL/DRs right from the off.

Edited May 15, 2014 by midianlord

[cxten]

Your pyro merc can just stop doing dps and heal. Maybe even wait at the start, planning to heal for the 1st part of the fight, if you really don't want aggro. Every class & spec has tools at its disposal, though some more than others, of course.

[midianlord]

Your pyro merc can just stop doing dps and heal. Maybe even wait at the start, planning to heal for the 1st part of the fight, if you really don't want aggro. Every class & spec has tools at its disposal, though some more than others, of course.

 

That is also, a less-than-desirable solution:

 

The TFP bosses all have huge health-pools compared to most real Flashpoint bosses. This is EAWare's typically cheap, lazy way of imparting "challenge," when all it really creates is tedium.

 

Off-healing will run me out of resources (overheat in the BH's case), and leave me having to blow a very long cooldown to get it back, when I might need it later. Hybrid damager/healers would be quite hideously OP if they didn't run into resource-issues doing too much of their off-spec role, so this is unlikely to change anytime soon.

 

I think this all points to needing to make the content actually tougher --just enough to need a trinity-- not "artificially-tougher." Yes, queues will get longer. There's really no getting away from that, though --I think TFPs for level-cappers are really only prolonging the inevitable here-- until/unless they finally get a clue and implement cross-server functionality.

 

As stated repeatedly, it's a limitation of this game being tied too tightly to the class-based trinity paradigm. If we had more "free-form" abilities to make our classes/specs do different things on a situational basis (with appropriate costs elsewhere, of course), then this would be much less of a problem, or even might not be at all, if done right.

Edited May 16, 2014 by midianlord

[BobFredJohn]

Mate stop throwing tantrums and read what people are writing.

 

You will find most people are trying to help by suggesting how you can improve, but your too fixed on this idea the game is wrong.

 

up 2 posts from here someone has just said (paraphrased) "If you dont want aggro, run as healer"

 

Your response "I dont want to." well thats your choice, but if the way you play makes the game more difficult for you, thats down to you, NOT bugged game mechanics.

 

You also seem to have ignored the (practically I think easiest method) I suggested so I shall re-itterate.

Get some 140/156 gear so your not pulling aggro of the 140/156 geared people, you said yourself on i think page 1 or 2 your dps is "not world beating". Therefore if you gear equal to your group members you should have no problems.

 

As stated repeatedly, it's a limitation of this game being tied too tightly to the class-based trinity paradigm. If we had more "free-form" abilities to make our classes/specs do different things on a situational basis (with appropriate costs elsewhere, of course), then this would be much less of a problem, or even might not be at all, if done right.

I re-itterate again

When you have learnt your class you will find they have actually been reasonably well balanced to be able to deal with these types of situations by correct use of your class abilities.

 

E: what does 1337 mean?

Edited May 16, 2014 by BobFredJohn

[Damask_Rose]

Tactical flashpoints are pretty much the only group content I participate in and I pug them, so I don't have any guildies to rely on. My 55s include one tank, one rdps and 2 healers.

 

Czerka story modes are designed for 2 people, but group finder puts in 4. Even undergeared and playing with 3 other undergeared players, you shouldn't be dying in Czerka story modes. Pretty much the only deaths I have ever seen in Czerka SM are people who run ahead or people who jump too high off of the stairs. None of the bosses need to be tanked in story mode. If your group isn't hitting the kolto stations, feel free to up and run to them when you start getting lower on health than you are comfortable with. Either the boss will follow you or someone else will take agro. The bosses in the biozones can be taken down in the center of the room with 4 damage dealers. The mushrooms & generators only make it quicker.

 

The hard modes are not tactical, but require the trinity, so if you don't like tacticals, do the hard modes.

 

I haven't done very many lvl 55 KDY, but I've done a bunch of 15-54 runs with a wide variety of characters. With 4 damage dealers the biggest challenges are the non-boss elites since there are no kolto stations. If you are going to die, drop agro and wait for another dps to take the agro before re-joining combat. On the boss fights, just like with Czerka SM, there is no need for the bosses to be tanked. When adds pop, go kill them and ignore the boss. If your health gets lower than comfort levels, run to a kolto station. These bosses are designed to be fought with all damage dealers. Even when you have a trinity, playing traditional roles is often not the best way to tackle these fights. Killing adds is more important than tanking the boss. Kolto stations are more efficient than healing.

 

I haven't done enough of Korriban and Tython to get a good feel for them yet. They seem more difficult than the older tacticals. However, breaking off the boss to kill adds or hit kolto stations still seems like the best way to tackle the boss fights. The deaths I have seen have been due to people running ahead or standing in red stuff. The red stuff seems more punishing in these flashpoints than in the older ones.

 

TL;DR If you're not grouped with a tank in a tactical, you don't need to fill the role and you are, if fact, better off if you don't try. No one needs to be tanking the boss while you kill adds or run for kolto.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Damask_Rose

[midianlord]

Korriban and Tython are a little tougher, in the sense that you can --and depending on party-composition, should-- make judicious use of CCs on some trash packs (the Champions on the way to the end-boss rooms, cuz they have groups --sometimes Elite-- of weenies), and use proper kill order. Oh, and your party's Marau-durrrr?

 

They need to like, not break CC on those Champs until the weenies are dead, or nearly so.

 

The Czerka trash is pretty much pure AoE-party, on the other hand. (TSO ---> Fusion Missile ---> DFA ---> Sweeping Guns ---> everything's turned into floor-pizza).

 

Maybe I'm just constantly grouping with bads --what a surprise-- but nobody does all the things you say in my groups, and the boss just keeps chasing me, threat-dump and/or stopping DPS be damned. I should just maybe try solo'ing this **** again (Corp. Labs was piss-easy to solo before they fixed the droid-adds, haven't tried since, but I don't end up face-tanking that one as often. I don't know if Meltdown really can be solo'ed, though (never tried, and the Big Guys in that one hit quite hard.)

 

I didn't say I'm always, or even often dying --I go splat on occasion, but not too often-- just that I'm finding it annoying as hell, and that got me thinking about...well...the whole premise of this thread, basically.

 

(Oh, and BoBFredWhatever, who said anything about bugs? This is about high-level design limitations; One may be informed/directly caused by the other, but one doesn't automatically imply the other, and they're certainly not the same things.)

 

Yeah, the tag for those is [GROUP 2] Flashpoint. And sure enough, I've PuGged a few where it was just me, one other player, and our companions...And those usually went much better than some...errrrm...memorable...full group runs.

 

What does that tell you

Edited May 16, 2014 by midianlord

[BobFredJohn]

Maybe I'm just constantly grouping with bads

 

yes, if your dieing in TFP this is often the main reason, im glad you finally reached the correct conclusion after 4 and abit pages of "we NEED a tank."

 

bear in mind as I have been saying, correct use of your class can make up for some bads (unless they are pathetic, then you will just have to accept afew deaths or wasted time on quitting the run).