Bolster all the things!!

[slafko]

I heard that term somewhere else as well, that is progression more based on skill and less on gaining stronger gear right?[/Quote]

Something like that. Take a look at this article here, it describes horizontal progression very well: http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/strangesands/122012/24271_What-is-Horizontal-Progression-Really.

If so, then I am wondering, what would the reward be? [/Quote]

A truly visually unique item. An achievement. A title displaying an accomplishment or a set of accomplishments.

And, how will the majority of the players (mostly casual) be able to join those? As in is all content (or at least the first tier of all content) still doable for casuals? They usually leave when it becomes to tough and swtor kinda needs those casuals to pay the bills (or so I believe).

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not against the idea.

Casuals, like other people still like to get their achievements and display their titles. And if they want to earn the hardest, grindiest, trickiest titles - they're going to play and work on them. It's that simple really. If you give players enough gear customization options but define a top-level set of gear and adjust mobs accordingly - the entire game is a challenge no matter where you are.

 

I'll give an example: the original Guild Wars. Now that's a horizontal progression in it's truest form. Players would hit level 20 (max) in a few days. At that level they would have access to max level gear but there were dozens of different (more and more expensive) armor sets and weapons to obtain and customise your character looks. Having max gear did not mean you'd be able to faceroll content. And, more importantly, level cap and new tier of gear have not been introduced even when the Hard Mode update came out. This meant that people would be facing mobs so strong they were, at times, broken. Getting killed there didn't incur repair costs so your gold was safe. It did something far worse - you got a 15% death penalty each time you died (with 60% being max). This death penalty reduced your health and energy. Now, imagine engaging the same group of mobs with half of your max Health and Energy when you couldn't beat them while you were at 100%. Masochism, right? You either stepped up, rethought your skillset and pulling strategies or logged off to microwave your hamster.

 

I still log on the old GW and still find it a challenge even after 10k hours spent playing. Why? Because my gear isn't OP even when I enter lowbie instances. Why did I play such a game? Because it was fun and there were many titles and achievements to grind and beat. SWTOR has a lot of titles and achievements too, if not more. But it isn't challenging when you go back to a leveling planet to grind kills and titles. Why? Because of the gear.

 

Vertical progression makes content obsolete. Just look at Explosive Conflict operation. No one ever does it. Horizontal progression enables the entire game to be challenging even years after its release. I'm playing my new GW character so that it doesn't die before maxing out 30 different titles. And it's a lot more challenging than most of the content in SWTOR.

Edited May 21, 2014 by slafko

[Fidelicatessen]

Not to derail the interesting discussion going on, but I keep seeing this thread title and, I must say, it makes me laugh and cry a little bit at the same time.

 

BOLSTER ALL THE THINGS!

[Whojoo]

Something like that. Take a look at this article here, it describes horizontal progression very well: http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/strangesands/122012/24271_What-is-Horizontal-Progression-Really.

 

A truly visually unique item. An achievement. A title displaying an accomplishment or a set of accomplishments.

Casuals, like other people still like to get their achievements and display their titles. And if they want to earn the hardest, grindiest, trickiest titles - they're going to play and work on them. It's that simple really. If you give players enough gear customization options but define a top-level set of gear and adjust mobs accordingly - the entire game is a challenge no matter where you are.

 

I'll give an example: the original Guild Wars. Now that's a horizontal progression in it's truest form. Players would hit level 20 (max) in a few days. At that level they would have access to max level gear but there were dozens of different (more and more expensive) armor sets and weapons to obtain and customise your character looks. Having max gear did not mean you'd be able to faceroll content. And, more importantly, level cap and new tier of gear have not been introduced even when the Hard Mode update came out. This meant that people would be facing mobs so strong they were, at times, broken. Getting killed there didn't incur repair costs so your gold was safe. It did something far worse - you got a 15% death penalty each time you died (with 60% being max). This death penalty reduced your health and energy. Now, imagine engaging the same group of mobs with half of your max Health and Energy when you couldn't beat them while you were at 100%. Masochism, right? You either stepped up, rethought your skillset and pulling strategies or logged off to microwave your hamster.

 

I still log on the old GW and still find it a challenge even after 10k hours spent playing. Why? Because my gear isn't OP even when I enter lowbie instances. Why did I play such a game? Because it was fun and there were many titles and achievements to grind and beat. SWTOR has a lot of titles and achievements too, if not more. But it isn't challenging when you go back to a leveling planet to grind kills and titles. Why? Because of the gear.

 

Vertical progression makes content obsolete. Just look at Explosive Conflict operation. No one ever does it. Horizontal progression enables the entire game to be challenging even years after its release. I'm playing my new GW character so that it doesn't die before maxing out 30 different titles. And it's a lot more challenging than most of the content in SWTOR.

 

Ok i understand horizontal progression a bit better now, thanks.

 

Then the following question. How would you implement a horizontal progression system in a game that focussed on vertical progression? Or better said, how do you make sure the game survives the adjustment.

Currently the players' mindet is on vertical progression and I doubt everyone likes changing their mindset. Usually change = scary.

Ofcourse a lot of people will be doing a happy dance if this would ever happen

 

At least I'm sold, I vote horizontal progression (although I doubt it will happen).

 

Back on topic:

Bolstering everything might not be such a bad idea. This includes content btw.

Bolster it to a certain gear level and stop adding new gear. Should not be so hard, right?

Just need some replacement reward.

 

Then again, the mindset thing I mentioned earlier. Such a change could end up in a lot of unsubs.

[Macio]

180 mods from comms are as good as dropped from HM, i believe same goes for Armoring (just checked "ask my robot" and any 180 armorings with same stats you can get from both Dread Forged and Oriconian gear) just no set bonus obviously.

 

Only difference between token gear and comms gear is enchancment. Yes - difference is quite big but as long as you can grind out comms and don't need (or don't want to) to min max you gear then you can just run SM16 ops and get really decent gear. You will struggle with accuracy to start with to be competitive with most good DPS players but then when you only happy to grind SM16 for comms, i am sure you not worried about being competitive.

 

Another big difference between oriconian gear and Dread Forged are implants, ear pieces and relics. This is main difference between well geared people and not so well geared people. And i am very happy for this to be the case. However by enabling use of PvP relics outside of PvP arenas, this makes it not so important to run HM DP for relics for example.

 

When it comes to bolstering, I would be fine with it as long as SM bosses would not give top tier commendations.

I like the idea of bolstering players to certain level for SM runs so everyone can experience it. Operations are great.It should be introduction to what raiding is about. It should be easy enough (and it is most of the time) for anyone to step in, and do their part. Enjoy the occasion and then if they like it and want so more, start getting gear to run HM (join a raiding guild to join their HM team).

 

Give commendations for completing the whole ops and not for every boss. This way it would take much longer to get decent gear thru easy content but would help people that want to do it, gear up for HM. And i remember when i stepped into HM with full min/max 72s and it was hard for our decent group to progress. so for average Joe they will need to get some help with gear but giving full 180s for easy content I am not that happy with.

 

Also i would like to see crafted 180s only after another tier comes out. Not NIM for current content. It kills feeling of achiving something quickly. My group was the only group in our guild to kill Dead Councils on HM but now every one have 180 main hand and they are ready for anything .....

 

i think i digress from main subject a bit so apologies

[merovejec]

It would actually be awesome to Bolster all leveling FPs.

 

It gets soooooo boooooooring seeing the same 1-2 FPs over and over AND OVER AND OVER for 4-5 levels at a time.

 

On the other hand, if we progressively added more FPs as we leveled up (instead of out-leveling them constantly), then by the mid-levels we could have stuff like:

• Black Talon (or maybe not, for sanity purposes)
  
• Hammer Station
  
• Athiss
  
• Mando
  
• Cademimu
  
• BP
  
• Foundry
  
• CWG
  
• Red Reaper
  
• Directive 7
  
• Assault / Incursion
  
• BFI / False Emperor
  
• Lost Island / Kaon
  
• Czerka
  
• KDY
  

 

All on rotation throughout the leveling process. That would be so, so incredibly refreshing and really spice up the leveling process.

 

I know there's some potential plot / story spoilers at a few locations there, but those are manageable / editable, and none of the FPs have very heavy spoilers for most Planet or Class stories.

 

Oh gosh it's such a dream to imagine a full spread of FPs across the whole leveling process. Please BioWare, please please please. ♥

 

I don't know, I think you level up so fast that you play a FP only once. If you are really leveling you only play it once or maybe twice, when higher level. I think it is good the way it is as you gain too much xp too fast.

[merovejec]

i put "better gear" in quotation becuase many people do not know that 162 enhacmnet from tokens are better than 180 from comm vendor

 

 

i met so many people who grinded thier 180 comms set thrugh 16man story mode and never set foot into HM (when looked thrugh thier achivments) and they tell me they are geared to run DF/DP HM when i see that i like to think to myself yet again another KDY child who just zerged to lvl 55 not knowing about thier class and role, also i love hearing from tanks "i have 45k hp am i geared enough to run it?"

 

so what i am trying to say people have no idea how to gear them selfs, will bolster hellp them expalin what kind of gear is better and what they need to gear thier toons with ... i will say bolster will not help them at all

 

Yeah, its like the Sentinel, which has Absorb relics claiming it is better for him to survive more

[merovejec]

180 mods from comms are as good as dropped from HM, i believe same goes for Armoring (just checked "ask my robot" and any 180 armorings with same stats you can get from both Dread Forged and Oriconian gear) just no set bonus obviously.

 

Only difference between token gear and comms gear is enchancment. Yes - difference is quite big but as long as you can grind out comms and don't need (or don't want to) to min max you gear then you can just run SM16 ops and get really decent gear. You will struggle with accuracy to start with to be competitive with most good DPS players but then when you only happy to grind SM16 for comms, i am sure you not worried about being competitive.

 

Another big difference between oriconian gear and Dread Forged are implants, ear pieces and relics. This is main difference between well geared people and not so well geared people. And i am very happy for this to be the case. However by enabling use of PvP relics outside of PvP arenas, this makes it not so important to run HM DP for relics for example.

 

When it comes to bolstering, I would be fine with it as long as SM bosses would not give top tier commendations.

I like the idea of bolstering players to certain level for SM runs so everyone can experience it. Operations are great.It should be introduction to what raiding is about. It should be easy enough (and it is most of the time) for anyone to step in, and do their part. Enjoy the occasion and then if they like it and want so more, start getting gear to run HM (join a raiding guild to join their HM team).

 

Give commendations for completing the whole ops and not for every boss. This way it would take much longer to get decent gear thru easy content but would help people that want to do it, gear up for HM. And i remember when i stepped into HM with full min/max 72s and it was hard for our decent group to progress. so for average Joe they will need to get some help with gear but giving full 180s for easy content I am not that happy with.

 

Also i would like to see crafted 180s only after another tier comes out. Not NIM for current content. It kills feeling of achiving something quickly. My group was the only group in our guild to kill Dead Councils on HM but now every one have 180 main hand and they are ready for anything .....

 

i think i digress from main subject a bit so apologies

 

Yeah, I definitely agree with this. You can gear your toon well, by farming Ultimate coms, I mean the mods are the same from Oriconian and DF gear, there are just the enhancements, implants, relics and earpiece, these are better, but you can still be in good shape when optimized Oricionian gear.

[JouerTue]

i think the only thing that will actually change is the LFM on the fleet will become LFM via gf for extra comms..the real ops won't be touched and casual won't be able to join without a guild, HM pugs will always fail past the first bosses..non optimized chars, both bis with comms and ''just full oriconian with alacrity on tanks'' will always discover how it goes in HM/NiM once they try..sm bolster is uselss, since the oricon questline and a bit of common sense with the gtn, gear you pretty well for sm pugs..otherwise..if you are not able to do those simple things and will go for GF you'll be carried and be bad exactly as you do now without GF. and gearing with sm pugs is insane imo..just too hard to go through the abusing of need

[DarkTekno]

xD im still confused at the wording of the original post, but fully understand its direction.. the words horizontal/vertical just dont seem right xD progression is progression, and the route to the top and the skills/gear/experience collected along the way should all contribute, but it seems to have got a bit lost recently, & thats besides the fact leveling to 50/55 is far too easy with only a few tough fights along the way, unless ofc, you are overgeared/overleveled for the content.

The post is a potential minefield for bioware.. but something they defo need to sort out.. quickly

I've moaned for years about the pvp bolster/relics etc.. and now with the sudden influx of top end gear for all to get hold of so easily which has almost stopped the need for kell dragon/underworld progression gear dead in its tracks is a bit beyond belief.

Why is some NiM 55 ops gear lower than other 55 HM stuff? that in itself shows some sort of problem with the system.

I tell players 'you dont need to buy the DF stuff', but i see from the price of mmg's etc that the market for that stuff is huge.

Elite comms have become comms for comps, basic comms for isotopes only.. its all out of balance

o yeah.. and bioware ,, sort out HK's gear and 34 tank enhancemtents dps can have low enduro/high power, tanks dont get that choice with thier 180 enhancements.. we have to spend all those mmg's/isotopes on stuff thats same as comm vendor crap.. ??? i mean c'mon.. ***?

 

Yes we all want the best, but to skip out 2 or 3 steps along the way and then allowing lesser skilled players to run headfirst into a brickwall is not biowares best thought out plans.

HM content as some of us know is very tough at first, yes the gear is needed to do it, but to dive straight into DF/DP HM without trying out the slightly 'easier' S+V / TFB has somewhat destroyed the whole meaning of progression. The newer players who'd like to try HM, simply dont want to do the older 55 ops HM b'cos 'the gear's crap'.. and that has to be fixed.

Like i said the other week when i wanted to give NiM S+V / TFB a try, i was quickly talked down out of it due to the complex difficulties of that content, i said well that gear is now obsolete then.. achievements & titles are great, but seem pretty pointless without the extra bonuses and gear collected on the way.

Although i do still want the NiM L50 i missed out due to leveling too fast and out gearing the content too fast.. u know what i mean xD i want to, but its bottom of the list.

I can see why bioware are trying to merge a few levels of player into one so that more can attempt to do hm content, as many many guilds have set teams only, and most pug hm's are a washout, but the whole system seems out of sync.

I cant recall doing the L50 NiM stuff in 50 gear, so that was never really a challenge, apart from maybe EC, which is an op i enjoy still.. but its so rare because its a bit tough in parts.. highlighting the attitude of most players.. "run away", "not doing that again" 'quick EV run anyone???"

So when i 1st tried the 2 older 55 ops in Hm, it was a bit of a shock to the system, and our regular bunch of players found it tough for a few weeks, but we cracked it and basked in the glory of a true sense of achievement for a few days xD we did those 2x 55 ops for a few months, 1 or 2 times a week and got us some good gear.. satisfied !!

Then we were presented with df/dp hm, which again slightly stepped up skill levels, but with that gear being better than NiM TFB / S+V stuff, then the older ops were quickly forgotten.. which disappointing me..

And Bioware just did it again, bypassed the progression side of progression..,. now not many people in our guild want to do some content 'cos the gears crap' and setting up another HM group for the guild and conceding to their pleas and diving straight into df/dp hm is an expensive way to go xD and ultimately leads to more disappointment than any sense of achievement.

The skills you learn & gear you win in some content should prepare you for the next level of content.. not just buy your way to what is the same as top end gear (apart from enhancements) and expect to jump into DF NiM

 

Also... 16man sm gives ulti comms? lol, really?? sooooo many players in 16m have never done 8man, so some dont even know what to do and can happily sit at the back hitting stuff without having any responsibilities for the grp.

8man content should be rewarded more than 16man as it is slighlty tougher b'cos it usually means all players have jobs to do and have to 'learn' the op, which also helps their chance of jumping into HM content a little easier because they are more aware of basics.

If bioware raise the level cap to 60, that can only lead to more & more double xp weekends as people cry to get there faster, leading to more unskilled players at top level in top gear

The new fp's are a massive let down, why are they 55? far too easy cos we already have the gear to probably solo the stuff ...

Cant have rocket boots to get to the top, need to go step by step

Edited May 21, 2014 by DarkTekno

[SW_display_name]

I don't know, I think you level up so fast that you play a FP only once. If you are really leveling you only play it once or maybe twice, when higher level. I think it is good the way it is as you gain too much xp too fast.

Have you leveled exclusively using Group Finder + Class Missions outside a Double XP weekend?

 

Even with Major XP Boosts hooked up intravenously, you will see BP, Foundry, and CWG enough times to make you doubt your faith and consider light-seppuku.

[SW_display_name]

Yeah, its like the Sentinel, which has Absorb relics claiming it is better for him to survive more

I can't count how many times I've had Cunning, Will, or Aim gear taken by Sents / Maras claiming "Endurance is my primary stat".

 

Actually, I can: six.

 

And that's six times too many.

[BobFredJohn]

So you mean all those basic comms I farmed, got the gear then farmed the elites, then got full elite gear so I was finally geared for OPs (btw that took a fair old time). Now some bloke can get to 55, rock up to an OP group and get bolstered FOR FREE to the same gear rating as I have just spent a few weeks obtaining? REDICULOUS

 

Edit:

On a similar vein, I have spent ages farming elite comms using my 162 geared imp characters (after having farmed basic comms, not so bad). The once I have some nice 168 for all my imps I go and decide to level my reps and find TFP weekly is avaiable from lvl 15, either this needs to be changed or change elite comm description:

 

at the moment: These can be obtained by defeating bosses in level 55 operations and flashpoints.

 

change to: These can be obtained by defeating bosses in level 55 operations and flashpoints unless you are a rep player where you can get these at level 15 by taking a casual stroll through the games easiest content.

Edited May 21, 2014 by BobFredJohn

[Khevar]

So you mean all those basic comms I farmed, got the gear then farmed the elites, then got full elite gear so I was finally geared for OPs (btw that took a fair old time). Now some bloke can get to 55, rock up to an OP group and get bolstered FOR FREE to the same gear rating as I have just spent a few weeks obtaining? REDICULOUS

Strictly speaking, you didn't need full elite gear to run SM operations. You could have just run Oricon once, equipped the 156 gear that you get as mission rewards and been good to go for SM TfB and SM SnV.

 

I applaud the effort to get a full set of elite gear before running ops, but wearing 168 gear when the operation drops 162 gear is a bit backwards, don't you think?

Edited May 21, 2014 by Khevar

[Whojoo]

Strictly speaking, you didn't need full elite gear to run SM operations. You could have just run Oricon once, equipped the 156 gear that you get as mission rewards and been good to go for SM TfB and SM SnV.

 

I applaud the effort to get a full set of elite gear before running ops, but wearing 168 gear when the operation drops 162 gear is a bit backwards, don't you think?

 

You know that there was a time that elite comms gave 162's (69). Still even then the basic comm gear was good enough for sm.

[slafko]

Ok i understand horizontal progression a bit better now, thanks.

Then the following question. How would you implement a horizontal progression system in a game that focussed on vertical progression? Or better said, how do you make sure the game survives the adjustment. [/Quote]

For starters, you'd have to define a max level of gear. After that, you have to adjust flashpoints and operations accordingly. It's a lot of work and I don't really think it could be done within reason (time, effort, money).

 

Horizontal progression are not for the lazy or cheap developers and companies. I mean, it's a lot easier to add a couple of million hit points to a boss, program in a new mechanic and call it new content than actually creating new content. Same goes for the gear - new tier is just a bunch of higher numbers than the previous one and they both use the same armor shells with different color palettes.

 

To make matters worse, you can't really have stationery mobs in your horizontal game and have those mobs function on threat generation and taunts. You need to make them patrol, run around, change directions, actually move out of AoE, interrupt (and not by constant knockback spam) players, have a balanced group with healers present, ignore your tank and spike the healer, effectively shut down your casters and generally make your life a lot harder than the current philosophy of SWTOR mobs:

 

Moff Random: "Let's just stand here, without any healers, and let's all unleash on that dude taunting us whilst ignoring his friend that's healing him and his other two buddies that are slicing us to pieces."

Agent Orange: "Sir! Yes, sir!"

Darth Buttercup: "Excellent idea, Moff. Your service to the Empire shall be rewarded."

Bounty Hunter Ash'ketchum: "Your military genius is unsurpassed, Moff. Allow me to join you in your glorious campaign worthy of the greatest tacticians the galaxy has ever seen. We'll discuss payment later. Lock and load!"

 

*crickets*

 

Moff Random: "Oh, they've stormed past us using the most cunning of plans and jumping that railing over there. Oh well, I'm too lazy to engage a group of enemies twelwe meters away... I wonder how many feet that is. Agent! Look it up on the holonet! Where was I..?"

 

Jedi Baldrick: "I TOLD YUO GUISE DIS WUZ A CUNNING PLAN LOL"

Rep1: "Imps be dumb, yo."

Rep2: "LOL"

Rep3: *falls down an elevator shaft* "KURWA! I DIEDED"

Reps: "ROFLZ"

Edited May 22, 2014 by slafko

[BobFredJohn]

Strictly speaking, you didn't need full elite gear to run SM operations. You could have just run Oricon once, equipped the 156 gear that you get as mission rewards and been good to go for SM TfB and SM SnV.

 

I applaud the effort to get a full set of elite gear before running ops, but wearing 168 gear when the operation drops 162 gear is a bit backwards, don't you think?

 

Its more that on the first 3 times I joined ops group with gear ranging from 156 to 162 (used crafted mods as I wanted particular ratings and dont like the look or oricion gear) I would get kicked for being undergeared. Even the 1 time I joined Kraags palace with mostly 156, seeing a vote kick pop up really surprised me (especially considering 5 of the other 7 people were below lvl 53 so wouldnt even have 156).

 

As such I decided to collect full 168 before ops to solve the issue, though I find it still happens when people look at my gear, sniper specced crit and surge. I have alot of people telling me I MUST be alacrity and power, then kick me.

[Khevar]

Its more that on the first 3 times I joined ops group with gear ranging from 156 to 162 (used crafted mods as I wanted particular ratings and dont like the look or oricion gear) I would get kicked for being undergeared. Even the 1 time I joined Kraags palace with mostly 156, seeing a vote kick pop up really surprised me (especially considering 5 of the other 7 people were below lvl 53 so wouldnt even have 156).

 

As such I decided to collect full 168 before ops to solve the issue, though I find it still happens when people look at my gear, sniper specced crit and surge. I have alot of people telling me I MUST be alacrity and power, then kick me.

Wow. It sucks that players can be so absurd about what they "think" is needed for content, and then vote-kick people that don't live up to their bizarre reality disconnect.

 

Again, kudos for taking the time to gear up past silly expectations.

 

What's really interesting, is that Karagga's Palace was originally (as in pre-2.0) tuned for a group of people wearing 136 rated gear (old-school Columi). Kicking someone for "only" bringing 156-rated gear to KP? My guess, is that was a lazy zerger without a clue how any of the mechanics work and thinks every fight is a tank'n'spank.

 

My guess is that SM group finder ops "bolster" will only bring gear up to the recommended rating for the op in question, and no further.

[Whojoo]

Its more that on the first 3 times I joined ops group with gear ranging from 156 to 162 (used crafted mods as I wanted particular ratings and dont like the look or oricion gear) I would get kicked for being undergeared. Even the 1 time I joined Kraags palace with mostly 156, seeing a vote kick pop up really surprised me (especially considering 5 of the other 7 people were below lvl 53 so wouldnt even have 156).

 

As such I decided to collect full 168 before ops to solve the issue, though I find it still happens when people look at my gear, sniper specced crit and surge. I have alot of people telling me I MUST be alacrity and power, then kick me.

 

You... How do you find such people? Every single bastard who wanted to kick you is just dumb...

 

About the sniper part (off topic alert), obviously no alacrity. But don't stack crit either. I have ~300 crit rating and people generally consider that a bit much for lethality and way to much for marksman. (I don't care, I like my crit )

 

But yea, you are awesome for not leaving the game after meeting such jerks.

[Elusive_Thing]

You... How do you find such people? Every single bastard who wanted to kick you is just dumb...

 

About the sniper part (off topic alert), obviously no alacrity. But don't stack crit either. I have ~300 crit rating and people generally consider that a bit much for lethality and way to much for marksman. (I don't care, I like my crit )

 

But yea, you are awesome for not leaving the game after meeting such jerks.

This is about right. No Alacrity for Snipers, very little point in that.

[Panzerfire]

Bolstering story modes and increasing their rewards is a very good thing!

We want to have it more accesible and have more players trying out these operations so hopefully we have more people entering the HM/NiM scene.

 

Don't listen to people who think that "difficult" sm content shouldn't be bolstered.

Having more people queue into sm ops through groupfinder and learning them will never be a bad thing.

[Khevar]

Don't listen to people who think that "difficult" sm content shouldn't be bolstered.

Having more people queue into sm ops through groupfinder and learning them will never be a bad thing.

The unfortunate thing is there has been a shift to make things easier across the boards:

 

1. All recent flashpoints have been tacticals.

2. The three newest didn't even have HM versions.

3. There has been no truly difficult flashpoint added to the game since HM LI, which was 25 months ago.

4. As of 2.8, NM DF is losing it's "nightmare buff" making it easier (only 6 weeks after it was released)

 

It would be better to bolster SM operations, while ALSO adding in a variety of more challenging content

 

What happened to the idea of Tier 1 and Tier 2 levels of end-game content? Why not add HM versions of Tython and Korriban that required the trinity and have truly punishing mechanics? Why not remove the NM DF title, but leave the bosses difficulty unchanged?

 

This would not only make it easier for people to get involved in end-game activities, but it would ALSO give players that like challenging content more to do.

[sithBracer]

Hell... Might as well just bolster everything while your at it. Dailies, FP's, fleet. Bolster was the worse idea ever. If you can't figure out gear, then be a supreme crafter. If you can't craft or figure out gear. Play minesweeper.

 

I don't understand what the problem is. Currently level 50-54s have very few options in terms of ops. The only choice they have is EV hm and can only do it once a week. No one ever does EC, and KP is pretty rare. This will open up new ops for them to be able to do and be competitive in. It they were bolstering NiM DF, then your complaint would be valid, currently it just seems like pointless QQ.

 

1. Weekly Ops for completing 3-4 boss's removed. Whole Op or non coms (the way group finder works with the coms). Not enough people know the content except the first few boss's.

 

The reason they cap it is because sometimes the raids are too long. SM ops are not competitive, they are made for casuals; people who have lives and at the same time like to MMO in their spare time. If you want to do the whole thing, get into a guild, learn the system and play it on HM/NiM.

 

2. Remove coms to get top item level gear. HM and NiM mode should drop better gear, and be the only place you can get it. Bet you more HM Ops will be run.

 

The underworld gear is not optimized and does not contain set bonuses. The relics, MH, set bonuses and optimized pieces can only be found in raids. Why do you care if people buy their stuff through comms anyway. If you don't want to play with them, then you have the choice to not let them in your guild runs or just leave and find another group.

 

3. Stop making changes to the game that keeps hurting PvE players and making it more fair to PvP players. Have a separate tree just for a PvP set. (on a side note how about duel spec. 14 55's and I can't remember all the damn specs.)

 

Right, like the change they made to orbital strike, that was pure PvP ... oops that was PvE. Ok how about the madness assassin buffs, it will make the madness assassin the best PvPer .... nevermind. Oh yeah I got it, the buffs to assault VG/Pyro PT, that was all about PvP, they needed that sustained damage because enemy players have 1M hp and the huge immediate burst they have did not compensate for ... wait a minute.

 

I know many people will cry and complain about my list as they like it the way it is. I like a challenge myself, and just getting gear because I suffered through 11 weeks of sm content is stupid. Bring back the requirement to work for gear, and not just suffer though idiots fighting in sm.

 

We have it, you just need to be more social and find like minded people to do the content with you and let people play the game the way they want to. No one is hurting you by getting gear through sm OPs or by buying it off the cartel market or by getting it from Oricon. Get over yourself.

[ZooMzy]

4. As of 2.8, NM DF is losing it's "nightmare buff" making it easier (only 6 weeks after it was released)

 

For starters, lol. They stated they were going to be removing this buff before NiM DF went live, as a means to give elite NiM players a chance to earn something that could be a permanent symbol of their worth. The nerf to NiM DF isn't because people whined too hard.

 

Secondly, you underestimate the difficulty of how hard NiM DF will still be with the nerf. It's kind of like how challenging NiM TFB and SV still are when you roll in there with full Dread Forged, where the gear requirement is BiS and augmented 72s. Most groups still aren't capable of downing those instances, and would take a significant amount of familiarization with the mechanics to clear, let alone the amount of practice to be able to gain a title from the timed run.

 

It would be better to bolster SM operations, while ALSO adding in a variety of more challenging content

 

What happened to the idea of Tier 1 and Tier 2 levels of end-game content? Why not add HM versions of Tython and Korriban that required the trinity and have truly punishing mechanics? Why not remove the NM DF title, but leave the bosses difficulty unchanged?

This would not only make it easier for people to get involved in end-game activities, but it would ALSO give players that like challenging content more to do.

 

Bolded for irony, as that's what they are basically doing.

 

This game doesn't really need more challenging content, the race to fufil that never ending need adheres to a very small and loud minority of elite level players. What this game really needs is a better system of inclusion for players to have the opportunity to experience that end game content, without having to dedicate months and months of preparation and developing connections with the right people just to even have a shot at running the content.

 

Because as it stands, all you need to do to get more raiders and players who are capable of downing the toughest content is to give them a chance. The bads will still fail with bolstered stats, the good players will still succeed. The only difference between a non bolstered PvE and a bolstered, GF dominated PvE is the amount of required social success you have towards others.

 

So if you want success in PvE ops to be defined solely on how many good connections you can make, then I suppose that's your burden. Personally, I'd rather see a game where players earn spots on raid teams not because they managed to get that "once in a blue moon" connection with a good raid team, but because they have the capability of being a great raider.

[Syroe]

[quote=Drivenapollo;7410007

I know many people will cry and complain about my list as they like it the way it is. I like a challenge myself, and just getting gear because I suffered through 11 weeks of sm content is stupid. Bring back the requirement to work for gear, and not just suffer though idiots fighting in sm.

 

I will never understand people like you. Ever, ever ever. You post what I can only assume is an opening statement for a discussion(that's what forums are for, right?), then end it with an announcement that anyone that happens to disagree with you will be promptly ignored because he/she is crying and complaining. Whereas you are being completely reasonable and rational in your demands.

 

There is a story arc connected to all of the ops, especially the level 55 ones. People should be able to experience that story without having to suffer through equipment grinds.

 

On the other hand, I'd love to see them increase the difficultiy for all HM/NiM content after this(fingers crossed for HM versions of all the tacticals).

[Khevar]

Hello Zuhara.

For starters, lol. They stated they were going to be removing this buff before NiM DF went live, as a means to give elite NiM players a chance to earn something that could be a permanent symbol of their worth. The nerf to NiM DF isn't because people whined too hard.

Bolded for presenting a completely irrelevant point. Did I say it was because people whined too hard?

Secondly, you underestimate the difficulty of how hard NiM DF will still be with the nerf. It's kind of like how challenging NiM TFB and SV still are when you roll in there with full Dread Forged, where the gear requirement is BiS and augmented 72s. Most groups still aren't capable of downing those instances, and would take a significant amount of familiarization with the mechanics to clear, let alone the amount of practice to be able to gain a title from the timed run.

Isn't that why it's called "Nightmare"?

Bolded for irony, as that's what they are basically doing.

Oh, really?

 

I wish they would remove the title but leave the difficulty unchanged, and you say thats "basically" what they're doing?

 

Let's look at some dev quotes:

Second, Nightmare Mode with the Nightmare Power buff active will be balanced to the same deliciously devious difficulty level as the other Nightmare Modes you all know and love.

So WITH the nightmare power buff it's balanced comparable to the other NM modes we all know and love.

 

Now, the 2.7 patch notes are no longer available as originally written, but were quoted in this post:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=726671

At a future date, we will remove this buff, leaving the new mechanics in place but the health and damage dealt will return to usual hard mode values, and the title will no longer be possible to obtain.

HM DF hp and damage with NM mechanics sounds like a nerf to me.

This game doesn't really need more challenging content, the race to fufil that never ending need adheres to a very small and loud minority of elite level players.

Let's take your grandiose pretense of knowing "what the game needs" out of the picture. YOU may not need more challenging content. That's completely fair to say, and I'll give you that. Just don't pretend to speak for "the game".

What this game really needs is a better system of inclusion for players to have the opportunity to experience that end game content, without having to dedicate months and months of preparation and developing connections with the right people just to even have a shot at running the content.

And it's getting that with the SM bolster. Why not ALSO have more challenging content at the same time?

Because as it stands, all you need to do to get more raiders and players who are capable of downing the toughest content is to give them a chance. The bads will still fail with bolstered stats, the good players will still succeed. The only difference between a non bolstered PvE and a bolstered, GF dominated PvE is the amount of required social success you have towards others.

You seem to think I'm arguing against the SM bolster.

So if you want success in PvE ops to be defined solely on how many good connections you can make, then I suppose that's your burden. Personally, I'd rather see a game where players earn spots on raid teams not because they managed to get that "once in a blue moon" connection with a good raid team, but because they have the capability of being a great raider.

Let me be clear. Here's what I'd love to see:

 

1. Content that it accessible to newer, less experienced players.

2. Content that requires coordination and skill.

3. Content that is truly punishing and really tests your mettle and requires you to bring your "A" game.

 

We're getting more of #1. There's nothing wrong with asking for more of #2 and #3.

 

Why would you argue AGAINST the idea of adding a HM Korriban or Tyhon? Why do you want NM DF to be nerfed? Why don't you want more difficult flashpoints such as HM LI?

Edited May 23, 2014 by Khevar