Weak/ strong components.

[tunewalker]

"The Dot is doing at LEAST 40% of the damage to hull because the DoT like the rest of the missile has 20% shield piercing, but to top this all out the DoT ALSO places a 20% shield pierce debuff on the target"

 

You could be correct, but do you know this for sure?

 

Go shoot this thing 10 times in a game and look at all your dot ticks. If it was just this, you would see:

 

120.8 base value, 72.48 to shield, 48.32 x 1.5 = 72.48 to hull (the values are the same because 0.6 is the same as 0.4x1.5)= 145.

 

Do you always see the value of the tick at 145? The 142 is close enough, I guess. But have you never seen it lower?

 

 

 

I get like 615 hull damage with this assumption, but it p. late.

 

 

 

My assumption was that the dot has 20% piercing only because of the 20% piercing debuff- I didn't think it inherited the missile piercing.

 

 

 

 

Next time you are thermiting, make a note of all the dot ticks you see.

 

Will try, but The missile is still the missile, the fact that it does half its damage over time does not change the property of the 100% armor pen or 20% Shield pierce of the missile. After all it reads it full damage (the 1204 and 1800) and then lists it as 100% armor pen and 20% shield pen and ALSO putting a debuff on the target. It explains the numbers we see most of the time. Heck how many times have you heard in Mumble us talking about how the DoT HAS to be doing more damage to hull then the initial hit is doing simply because of the speed we watch a shielded targets hull drop by comparison. I do not recall ever getting lower then a 140 dot tick personally but I will try to make a note.

[Grahame]

... The regen Delay on Directional is 3 seconds vs Regen Delay on Quick Charge is 6, Recently consumed protions of quick charge allows it to continue to regen some while its waiting. Assuming you have 8 seconds (usually time is shorter then this between jousts) a Directional shield pike speced for capacity will regen 450 shields per arc (3 seconds of 0 regen 5 seconds of 90), by swaping arcs regen rate goes up how much is unknown (likely 20%). Quick charge on the other hand will have recharged 468 (30 for the first 6 seconds "recently consumed rate" and 144 for 2 seconds) The Directional shields start out with a 2100 per arc strength BEFORE arc swaping (likely 20% more as is with power) ....

 

I'm curious on your math here regarding quick charge regen. Base regen on a strike with no reactor buff is 144 Shield/sec. With the 60% buff (going by the tool tip), that puts you at 86.4 Shield/sec. Is the tool tip incorrect? If it's not, this would put quick charge at 806.4 over 8 seconds, not 468.

[tunewalker]

I'm curious on your math here regarding quick charge regen. Base regen on a strike with no reactor buff is 144 Shield/sec. With the 60% buff (going by the tool tip), that puts you at 86.4 Shield/sec. Is the tool tip incorrect? If it's not, this would put quick charge at 806.4 over 8 seconds, not 468.

 

It was based on dulfy's (recently consumed) number It appears the 60% may mean 60% BASE regen not 60% current regen. If it is current then you are correct, but I do not think I have ever seen a quarter my shields regen in 5 seconds while under fire. But yes if the numbers are off blame dulfy.

 

 

Edit: confirmed Verain lowest tick is 142. Watched a tick with a guy full shields. multiple times 142 every time.

Edited May 5, 2014 by tunewalker

[Verain]

It is true that all other lasers are better, but that doesn't make RFL straight bad!

 

If it's clearly worth than all the other choices, then yea, it's pretty bad.

[Verain]

Edit: confirmed Verain lowest tick is 142. Watched a tick with a guy full shields. multiple times 142 every time.

 

Ok, then the dot is the 40% pierce as you surmised!

[Verain]

It was based on dulfy's (recently consumed) number It appears the 60% may mean 60% BASE regen not 60% current regen.

 

While all the percentages appear to be base value, we really and truly don't know about the final talent. Unlike the others, it isn't adding something (we know if you have +50% from one thing and +50% from another, they add to +100%, not +125%).

 

But we don't know how it works with the shield regen talent- it sounds as if it would be 60% of current, instead of 60% of base. But really, we don't know.

 

I will say that pressing F2 even while in combat will absolutely give you blue shields in like three seconds flat. I would suspect surely.

[tunewalker]

While all the percentages appear to be base value, we really and truly don't know about the final talent. Unlike the others, it isn't adding something (we know if you have +50% from one thing and +50% from another, they add to +100%, not +125%).

 

But we don't know how it works with the shield regen talent- it sounds as if it would be 60% of current, instead of 60% of base. But really, we don't know.

 

I will say that pressing F2 even while in combat will absolutely give you blue shields in like three seconds flat. I would suspect surely.

 

Ya trying them again, been finding I break off the moment I get plinked once or twice depending on the weapon and going again and having near full shields every time I do it. Worrying about how it will work against burst laser and rocket pods since getting "plinked" by those hurts like hell. Of course head to heading with out breaking off is still good as long as they dont have CD's and your insta shield return button is up.

 

(still think its base is a little low, the fact that pretty much all the other good shields only have -20% or better just seems like -30 is overkill)

Edited May 5, 2014 by tunewalker

[Grahame]

Ya trying them again, been finding I break off the moment I get plinked once or twice depending on the weapon and going again and having near full shields every time I do it. Worrying about how it will work against burst laser and rocket pods since getting "plinked" by those hurts like hell. Of course head to heading with out breaking off is still good as long as they dont have CD's and your insta shield return button is up.

 

(still think its base is a little low, the fact that pretty much all the other good shields only have -20% or better just seems like -30 is overkill)

 

I didn't mean to disagree with your base premise that quick charge could use some tuning, the regen numbers you quoted were just far lower than I expected.

 

My best evidence is sadly anecdotal. I know that with quick charge on my star guard with a regeneration reactor that I can ususally out regen dots by shifting power to shields. I can't honestly say the source.

[tunewalker]

I didn't mean to disagree with your base premise that quick charge could use some tuning, the regen numbers you quoted were just far lower than I expected.

 

My best evidence is sadly anecdotal. I know that with quick charge on my star guard with a regeneration reactor that I can ususally out regen dots by shifting power to shields. I can't honestly say the source.

 

well with regen and with power to shields (if dulfy numbers are to be believed) is about 40/second so that could potentially do it.

 

Edit: regen in power to shields was 50% not 20% like i thought so actual number if Dulfy is right would be 54/ second.

Edited May 6, 2014 by tunewalker

[tunewalker]

"The Dot is doing at LEAST 40% of the damage to hull because the DoT like the rest of the missile has 20% shield piercing, but to top this all out the DoT ALSO places a 20% shield pierce debuff on the target"

 

You could be correct, but do you know this for sure?

 

Go shoot this thing 10 times in a game and look at all your dot ticks. If it was just this, you would see:

 

120.8 base value, 72.48 to shield, 48.32 x 1.5 = 72.48 to hull (the values are the same because 0.6 is the same as 0.4x1.5)= 145.

 

Do you always see the value of the tick at 145? The 142 is close enough, I guess. But have you never seen it lower?

 

 

 

I get like 615 hull damage with this assumption, but it p. late.

 

 

 

My assumption was that the dot has 20% piercing only because of the 20% piercing debuff- I didn't think it inherited the missile piercing.

 

 

 

 

Next time you are thermiting, make a note of all the dot ticks you see.

 

actually after redoing some math I think the pierce ends up being 36% (20% bleed through, thus 20% of 80% is 16% overall 36%). The Bleed through being applied first THEN the pierce. The bleed through and the Peirce not being addative.

 

thus 120.8 ends up being 77 to shields and 43.8 to hull x1.5 or 65.7, 65.7+77= 142.7 if they never round up and only use none decimals then the damage would be 142. Thus our explained 142 tick.

 

Bleed through and Peirce are not additive, only Pierce and Pierce or bleedthrough and bleedthrough.

Edited May 9, 2014 by tunewalker

[Verain]

Good man, that's the kind of distinction we need around here! I wouldn't have guessed that the two mechanics are separate.

[Kuciwalker]

Except you replicated other numbers with them being additive. I'm a bit skeptical that they are multiplicative.

[tunewalker]

Except you replicated other numbers with them being additive. I'm a bit skeptical that they are multiplicative.

 

I am not sure what you are saying. I was saying that Pierce+ pierce are addative, Bleedthrough+ bleedthrough are addative. But Bleedthrough and pierce, the bleedthrough appears to happen first and then the Pierce thus multiplicative.

 

I dont know what numbers you are talking about being replicated exactly you are going to need to specify.

[Kuciwalker]

Nevermind, I didn't notice the initial hit # only included piercing, not bleedthrough (which makes sense).

 

I don't like that they aren't additive. If they were additive it would be straightforward to create a "hardened shield" component that gives +X% shield hardness (i.e. negative bleedthrough, i.e. negates X% of enemy shield piercing). This would be an interesting and potentially very useful attribute to add to components. It could be a way to rescue things like Fortress Shield.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Kuciwalker

[tunewalker]

Are there any other components people think are weak? I rarely see people take Laser cannons. Do you think they to might be to weak or are they just not taken do to people prefrences more then anything else.

[tunewalker]

Nevermind, I didn't notice the initial hit # only included piercing, not bleedthrough (which makes sense).

 

I don't like that they aren't additive. If they were additive it would be straightforward to create a "hardened shield" component that gives +X% shield hardness (i.e. negative bleedthrough, i.e. negates X% of enemy shield piercing). This would be an interesting and potentially very useful attribute to add to components. It could be a way to rescue things like Fortress Shield.

 

well there maybe a way to do this, something like -20% bleed through ends up making shield peircing act as if the opponent shields had 20% bleed through (the weapon only hitting 80% of the shield and piercing 20% of that for 16% pierce) with out actuallying haveing the other 20% bleed through. So -20% bleed through would in a way also potentially reduce shield damage while also reducing "pierce" effects by 15-30%. That is a really intereting concept to me.

 

Edit: heck if the idea is to stop all pierce just a -100% bleed through would do it as the piercing would act as if it hit a shield with 100% bleed through thus none of the pierce would get through.

Edited May 11, 2014 by tunewalker

[Zharik]

Are there any other components people think are weak? I rarely see people take Laser cannons. Do you think they to might be to weak or are they just not taken do to people prefrences more then anything else.

 

Rarely see laser cannons on which ships? On some ships they are the best choice, imho.

[tunewalker]

Rarely see laser cannons on which ships? On some ships they are the best choice, imho.

 

I meant rarely see them on any ship that they can be on. Which ships do you find them best on? I just want to hear opinions on what they think is weak or strong individual components wise.

[Altheran]

Are there any other components people think are weak? I rarely see people take Laser cannons. Do you think they to might be to weak or are they just not taken do to people prefrences more then anything else.

 

It's mostly that the ships that can use it and do something coherent with it are rare.

 

It's undeniably weaker than most others cannons, but it's not to the point where it should be avoided. It's not that bad.

On ships that do not provide other 5000+ m cannons, when we favor range, Laser Cannon remains the number one choice, and is still relatively decent. (Novadive & Spearpoint)

Edited May 11, 2014 by Altheran

[Zharik]

I meant rarely see them on any ship that they can be on. Which ships do you find them best on? I just want to hear opinions on what they think is weak or strong individual components wise.

 

Type 1 scouts (other options are light lasers and RFLs) and interdiction drone bomber builds (nice balance of range with better tracking penalty) come to mind immediately. Oh and trust me, I know I am going to be told that HLCs are better for an interdiction bomber, but I disagree! I use interdiction to drag you down to (under) my maneuverability and I beat you with experience.

[tunewalker]

Type 1 scouts (other options are light lasers and RFLs) and interdiction drone bomber builds (nice balance of range with better tracking penalty) come to mind immediately. Oh and trust me, I know I am going to be told that HLCs are better for an interdiction bomber, but I disagree! I use interdiction to drag you down to (under) my maneuverability and I beat you with experience.

 

Honestly if it works for you it works for you. It just means that this wasnt originally put on my list of weak and strong and it was for a good reason . So what components do you think are weak?

[tunewalker]

Wanted to note somthing about quick charge real quick.

 

The first upgrade appears to potentially be bugged. It reads Shield power pool regeneration amount increased by 6% but appears to do nothing, no increase in shield strength or regen rate is noted after you buy the upgrade. I dont know if I should put this here or elsewhere.

[Altheran]

Wanted to note somthing about quick charge real quick.

 

The first upgrade appears to potentially be bugged. It reads Shield power pool regeneration amount increased by 6% but appears to do nothing, no increase in shield strength or regen rate is noted after you buy the upgrade. I dont know if I should put this here or elsewhere.

 

It's 6% of shields, upon activation. The on-use effect goes from 30% to 36%.

 

The trick lies here :

Shield power pool regeneration AMOUNT

It's amount, not rate.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Altheran

[tunewalker]

It's 6% of shields, upon activation. The on-use effect goes from 30% to 36%.

 

The trick lies here :

Shield power pool regeneration AMOUNT

It's amount, not rate.

 

oh ok thanks, it doesnt show up in the tool tips its just hard to know its actually working then. Still kind of lame.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

oh ok thanks, it doesnt show up in the tool tips its just hard to know its actually working then. Still kind of lame.

 

Since 2.7 it appears the tooltips have been bugged not showing the change after buying some upgrades (look at engine components for example, the CD on the tooltip doesn't change after you buy the upgrade that reduces the CD).