Kaggath Tournament Finals - Droid Supremacy vs Dark Imperium

[Selenial]

So Sidious, the same one who clouded Yoda's vision (so obviously he'd know how to remain unaffected), who we all know quite well was the canon most powerful sith & one of (if not) the most knowledgeable sith about farsight among other things and a very active user of said ability (as we know from repeated statements by the man himself). That guy is somehow worse at predicting the future than Traya?

 

And for the purposes of this battle, Sidious could barely predict a single battle's outcome with any accuracy. You expect Traya who we've routinely, though you can disagree all you'd like, proven makes mistakes in her farsight is somehow going to predict every battle and avoid her own death (something no force user has ever managed) in order to win multiple engagements simultaneously?

Luke skywalker was destined by the force to kill Sidious.

The entire Light Side of the force was pushing every move he made to end Sidious.

we can pretty easily put this down to the will of the force.

 

If Sidious' dark energies clouded the Light wielding force users, one could say Skywalker would do the same.

Sel the evidence is constantly mounting, I recommend you find a happy medium that I and/or others can believe and stop using visions as your go-to response to any battle situation that doesn't conform to your view of how Traya's strategy would play out in her best interest.

I don't say Traya wins every battle 'cuz Farsight. I'm saying she would see these fleets.

I freely admit Traya has impressive powers of farsight, and she has been more accurate than many other force users. That does not make this ability a catchall, infallible, or impossible to manipulate.

Lol @ Droids manipulating anything to do with the force...

Finally, would you seriously believe that Luke, Caedus, Sidious, Yoda, Revan etc... all lacked knowledge in this area? And that Traya was somehow much better than them all? Or perhaps have you somewhat overstated her abilities without taking into account the full picture of what farsight is?

I seriously couldn't take you seriously as soon as you said Revan.

 

And yes, I'd say they all lacked the knowledge that Traya had. Bar Yoda and Sidious.

She had access to thousands of years of Jedi Teaching, Ancient Sith teaching, and years to meditate. Not even counting the greatest Force Nexus in the Galaxy.

[tunewalker]

I seriously couldn't take you seriously as soon as you said Revan.

 

And yes, I'd say they all lacked the knowledge that Traya had. Bar Yoda and Sidious.

She had access to thousands of years of Jedi Teaching, Ancient Sith teaching, and years to meditate. Not even counting the greatest Force Nexus in the Galaxy.

 

I would not say she had more knowledge then GM Luke, certainly did not have more understanding. His near death experience in 8 ABY allowed him to see and be apart of the force itself for a short time. Pretty much from that moment on he understood the force on a level most could only dream of. He is the most powerful force wielder for a reason.

Edited April 8, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

As for ground numbers, even just the starting numbers for the DS's ground forces alone would be enough to conquer Saleucami not to mention the numbers they'd have after a few days on Geonosis and Ship from Bothawui could easily pick them up on their way to the front (or heck, G0-T0 can hire a few bulk transports)

With the Imperium's forces spread thin or rather concentrated at key areas/on the offensive this is likely the case. However its the counterattack you should be more concerned with, I expect the Shadow Stormtroopers would be very effective at using gureilla tactics to rest the planets from droid control. See the Onderon rebellion for details. Droids buckle under such tactics. Though in truth they are of less use when defending, as you lose the advantage of "stateless" warfare so to speak. I think ground assaults should be discussed in more depth.

You can't be serious in thinking a few elements of the OCF can survive the ore cannon ripping through the Matador as The Venators are being boarded and the rest of the fleet scattered to the wind.

I didn't pick up on the argument that was made, but I'd like to point out that the Ore Cannon cannot be used as a weapon, its target is fixed on the shipyards, it cannot rotate in anyway without extensive modification.

Now, let's do some maths here.

I love maths.

To be honest I'm a little tired of maths. These are fine for providing a "base" outcome if you will but of course doesn't take into account the plethora of other factors involved.

 

Anyway I'm not sure your ratios are accurate. Lets take into account G0-T0's lack of knowledge on the nature of the stealth fleet, as well as its movements. He's not going to believe that he'll need 140 ships to defend against a dozen of the enemies vessels. All he knows it that they are powerful capital ships, halving his force and leaving 100 or more behind and dispatching the remaining 100, including his most powerful ships, would be a safe bet.

 

And 100 ships, among them being a dozen Venators, is more than enough to match the combined firepower of the OCF, which is probably what they'll be up against if Traya's foresight proves effective. Such a confrontation, in an abstract sense, might also be something to consider as well.

I'll post mine later. Sufficed to say they're different.

If you want the quote on the malware I'll post it, but I thought that didn't get points anymore.

If you do I'd prefer less of a story of how events will come to pass, and more of an argument of how the Imperium will achieve X, Y and Z, but in a broad scope. This is what I prefer to see when I ask for scenarios, leave the stories to me.

Trench is a defensive master, his blockades have been described as "impenetrable." I'd like to see any droid find, or punch, a hole in that.

 

I'd also say that every single ship that enters Bonadan was scanned for weaponry. Even the most hardened and tough freighters and captains wouldn't dare try smuggle weapons in, I see no reason this could not be applied to Saleucami.

I'm not sure how this is how you have being seeing it, but the way I see it G0-T0 will probably get hold of several blockade runners and load them up with battle droids (I expect they can carry several thousand) and then while the fleet is engaging the enemy use the distraction to help the blockade runners, piloted by top-notch smugglers, get to the planet below and effectively stage a land invasion.

 

Smuggling in troops undercover is possible, but for a widespread invasion they'd likely apply this tactic.

What are we looking at for fighter numbers for both sides? Right now I'm assuming that the DI has the numerical edge in that regard, but I could use some clarification.

I expect the Supremacy has the numerical edge, the Imperium has the fighter space provided by the Venators - but so does the Supremacy, and they have just as many Venators. And while the Imperium has the Mandator, the Supremacy does have an entire navy 200 ships strong and all the fighters that would come with it.

Can we debate the actual effectiveness of Traya's visions and Shatterpoint skill then?

I think its fair to assume that Traya can predict enemy attacks in a broad sense, but nothing specific.

 

/debate.

[StarSquirrel]

I seriously couldn't take you seriously as soon as you said Revan.

 

And yes, I'd say they all lacked the knowledge that Traya had. Bar Yoda and Sidious.

She had access to thousands of years of Jedi Teaching, Ancient Sith teaching, and years to meditate. Not even counting the greatest Force Nexus in the Galaxy.

I cannot take you seriously after you said that. I literally fell on my *** laughing Sel.

 

You know Sidious has access to the same records and more in the Jedi Temple, he had access to all the collected knowledge of the Sith, and he had as many if not more years than Traya to study it.

 

Or Yoda, yeah he had access to the same Jedi Temple records plus a few millenia worth of new information both in reference to the sith and the jedi. And he also had few hundred years with them. Something Traya can't even come close to touching.

 

With the Imperium's forces spread thin or rather concentrated at key areas/on the offensive this is likely the case. However its the counterattack you should be more concerned with, I expect the Shadow Stormtroopers would be very effective at using gureilla tactics to rest the planets from droid control. See the Onderon rebellion for details. Droids buckle under such tactics. Though in truth they are of less use when defending, as you lose the advantage of "stateless" warfare so to speak. I think ground assaults should be discussed in more depth.

Agreed. However, it is my opinion that the DI will have the vast majority of its ground forces with the Stealth Fleet. And Terror droids are superior to Dark Troopers and equal to Assassins imo. Between B-1 numbers and terror droids the DS has a good chance of holding the worlds it captures I think.

I didn't pick up on the argument that was made, but I'd like to point out that the Ore Cannon cannot be used as a weapon, its target is fixed on the shipyards, it cannot rotate in anyway without extensive modification.

Alright, my mistake. Though you do mention that it rotate with extensive modification. Might that be something G0-T0 would look into?

 

To be honest I'm a little tired of maths. These are fine for providing a "base" outcome if you will but of course doesn't take into account the plethora of other factors involved.

 

Anyway I'm not sure your ratios are accurate. Lets take into account G0-T0's lack of knowledge on the nature of the stealth fleet, as well as its movements. He's not going to believe that he'll need 140 ships to defend against a dozen of the enemies vessels. All he knows it that they are powerful capital ships, halving his force and leaving 100 or more behind and dispatching the remaining 100, including his most powerful ships, would be a safe bet.

Why would he leave any of his ships at all? After losing Mon Cala to a fleet of hyper-powered stealth ships and does almost no damage to them I see absolutely no reason he'd try to defend his worlds and not just attack the DI full on. It'd be a waste of ships trying to take on the MSF initially and with small batches of ships.

I'm not sure how this is how you have being seeing it, but the way I see it G0-T0 will probably get hold of several blockade runners and load them up with battle droids (I expect they can carry several thousand) and then while the fleet is engaging the enemy use the distraction to help the blockade runners, piloted by top-notch smugglers, get to the planet below and effectively stage a land invasion.

 

Smuggling in troops undercover is possible, but for a widespread invasion they'd likely apply this tactic.

My thoughts as well, though sneaking them in isn't totally out of the question. But I've already made that argument. I'd also point out that Trench would be leading the MSF in DS territory at the point G0-T0 does anything in DI space.

I think its fair to assume that Traya can predict enemy attacks in a broad sense, but nothing specific.

 

/debate.

Thank you. Also, do you have an opinion on how this might work with multiple simultaneous engagements (ie, can she see only some of the battles and how do you think she'll react)

Edited April 8, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Wolfninjajedi]

And Terror droids are superior to Dark Troopers.

 

 

 

I wouldn't go that far, well depending on what you mean when you say Terror Droids and what version of the Dark Trooper.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[StarSquirrel]

I wouldn't go that far, well depending on what you mean when you say Terror Droids and what version of the Dark Trooper.

I meant Terror Troopers. The Terror Droids would not of course stand up as well. As for the Dark Troopers you'd have to ask Beni what Phase but I'd assume Phase II or III. Not sure though considering the Phase III were never produced in any kind of large numbers.

 

Also, does anyone know if Warren has the Terror Biodroid?

Edited April 8, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Beniboybling]

Alright, my mistake. Though you do mention that it rotate with extensive modification. Might that be something G0-T0 would look into?

 

Why would he leave any of his ships at all? After losing Mon Cala to a fleet of hyper-powered stealth ships and does almost no damage to them I see absolutely no reason he'd try to defend his worlds and not just attack the DI full on. It'd be a waste of ships trying to take on the MSF initially and with small batches of ships.

 

Thank you. Also, do you have an opinion on how this might work with multiple simultaneous engagements (ie, can she see only some of the battles and how do you think she'll react)

1. Its certainly possible, but it would take a long time and he'd have to find someone to build it.

 

2. Why would he sit around while the enemy attacks Mon Cala? Surely he will not wait and launch his own offensive first? However as soon as the MSF reveals itself he's not just going to ignore it, he cannot afford to do that. More likely he'll use the spies implanted on the ships during whatever conflict they were involved in and use that to track and ambush them as they move to other targets. For that he will need a sizeable portion of his fleet.

 

There is no real point it taking over the Imperium's worlds, which possess far less value than the Supremacy's, if they end up losing their own worlds - permanently - in the process. It would be a foolhardy move indeed.

 

3. I'd refer to an episode of The Clone Wars for this, Children of the Force to be exact. In this episode Yoda, Windu, Anakin and Kenobi engage in a sort of group meditation session in an attempt to predict which planets Cad Bane was going to attempt to steal Younglings from. Yoda saw Rodia, Windu saw Glee Anselm, Anakin saw Naboo. Though in truth they all seemed to see similar things, and together managed to narrow down the location.

 

Now I think this can be applied to the debate, though it should be noted that this was a collective effort of some of the most powerful Jedi in the Order, Yoda included, and even then the details were vague. Traya's natural talents in foresight likely rival Yoda's alone however, and with the power of the Traya Core I think she can come close to their collective potency. Given that I'd say yes, I expect that Traya could predict multiple assaults.

 

But take note, the details are vague. The Jedi predict the planet Cad Bane is going to attack, and the particular village, town, house he was targeting. But not how he was planning on taking the children, and what was involved. And in truth, how much more specific are the details we get on the future of the Exile's companions? Not very.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I meant Terror Troopers. The Terror Droids would not of course stand up as well. As for the Dark Troopers you'd have to ask Beni what Phase but I'd assume Phase II or III. Not sure though considering the Phase III were never produced in any kind of large numbers.

 

Also, does anyone know if Warren has the Terror Biodroid?

 

The terror troopers would be hard pressed to get through the Dark Trooper's phase 2/3 armor, heck even the phase 1 armor, I don't see them being able to really affect them with the way the Terrors attack. Plus the Dark Troopers(aside from phase 1) also has other advantages along with their armor.

 

Abit this is a moot point anyhow seeing as Sel doesn't have Dark Troopers....so moving on!

Edited April 8, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[StarSquirrel]

3. I'd refer to an episode of The Clone Wars for this, Children of the Force to be exact. In this episode Yoda, Windu, Anakin and Kenobi engage in a sort of group meditation session in an attempt to predict which planets Cad Bane was going to attempt to steal Younglings from. Yoda saw Rodia, Windu saw Glee Anselm, Anakin saw Naboo. Though in truth they all seemed to see similar things, and together managed to narrow down the location.

 

Now I think this can be applied to the debate, though it should be noted that this was a collective effort of some of the most powerful Jedi in the Order, Yoda included, and even then the details were vague. Traya's natural talents in foresight likely rival Yoda's alone however, and with the power of the Traya Core I think she can come close to their collective potency. Given that I'd say yes, I expect that Traya could predict multiple assaults.

 

But take note, the details are vague. The Jedi predict the planet Cad Bane is going to attack, and the particular village, town, house he was targeting. But not how he was planning on taking the children, and what was involved. And in truth, how much more specific are the details we get on the future of the Exile's companions? Not very.

Also remember that they missed him twice, once barely I'll admit but the other time they missed him entirely. They did however manage to predict him once. What you've said combined with my statement here is exactly what I've been arguing the whole time. Traya won't know much about G0-T0's forces, merely that some kind of attack will happen and she'll know where and roughly what time.

 

And to cap it all off, "the future is always in motion."

[Beniboybling]

Guys, there are no Dark Troopers. We are dealing with a legion of Shadow Stormtroopers. These guys. Edited April 8, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Also remember that they missed him twice, once barely I'll admit but the other time they missed him entirely. They did however manage to predict him once. What you've said combined with my statement here is exactly what I've been arguing the whole time. Traya won't know much about G0-T0's forces, merely that some kind of attack will happen and she'll know where and roughly what time.

 

And to cap it all off, "the future is always in motion."

True, but bear in mind that their predictions were accurate, they just didn't move fast enough.

 

I don't think she'll have any concept of time however, foresight rarely (if ever) provides that.

[Selenial]

Also remember that they missed him twice, once barely I'll admit but the other time they missed him entirely. They did however manage to predict him once. What you've said combined with my statement here is exactly what I've been arguing the whole time. Traya won't know much about G0-T0's forces, merely that some kind of attack will happen and she'll know where and roughly what time.

 

And to cap it all off, "the future is always in motion."

They missed him because they were slow to act.

 

Traya will be doing this the whole time.

[Selenial]

Im going out for a meal now, but Star, I'd recommend you do some history research.

 

The Jedi of Yodas time were rebuilding archives that were obliterated during the dark times. Traya had more access to more resources.

 

[Selenial]

I would not say she had more knowledge then GM Luke, certainly did not have more understanding. His near death experience in 8 ABY allowed him to see and be apart of the force itself for a short time. Pretty much from that moment on he understood the force on a level most could only dream of. He is the most powerful force wielder for a reason.

 

Ahh, but in contrast, Traya read an archive of the sith so ancient that nobody alive was supposed to read it.

Everyone who tried either went insane and killed themselves, or everyone else around them.

[Beniboybling]

Im going out for a meal now, but Star, I'd recommend you do some history research.

Bring us a doggy bag.

[tunewalker]

Ahh, but in contrast, Traya read an archive of the sith so ancient that nobody alive was supposed to read it.

Everyone who tried either went insane and killed themselves, or everyone else around them.

 

yes which is why she is as powerful as she is. Power and knowledge are not so different when in terms of the force

[Aurbere]

Moving on to ground combat for a moment, I feel that the Imperium has a major advantage in most ground engagements. This is because the B1 Battle Droids are severely limited in their capabilities. As I noted in previous matches, the B1s are only good for marching forward and shooting, they are at a severe disadvantage when it comes to ambushes and misdirection, a tactic that was consistently effective against them throughout the war. The stealth capabilities and training of Shadow Troopers make this type of warfare even more effective, which means the DI can topple a much larger force of droids with minimal casualties.

 

When it comes to Terror Troops, I don't know a great deal about them, but I don't think they are enough to really turn that kind of tide, especially when you bring Sith Assassins into the mix. Sure, they'll mix things up, but only for so long.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Edit: Oh wait...Warren has THAT army.....why does Warren have that army? Though the Trade Federation Army does also have droidekas, though I take it far fewer in number. Edited April 9, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Moving on to ground combat for a moment, I feel that the Imperium has a major advantage in most ground engagements. This is because the B1 Battle Droids are severely limited in their capabilities. As I noted in previous matches, the B1s are only good for marching forward and shooting, they are at a severe disadvantage when it comes to ambushes and misdirection, a tactic that was consistently effective against them throughout the war. The stealth capabilities and training of Shadow Troopers make this type of warfare even more effective, which means the DI can topple a much larger force of droids with minimal casualties.

 

When it comes to Terror Troops, I don't know a great deal about them, but I don't think they are enough to really turn that kind of tide, especially when you bring Sith Assassins into the mix. Sure, they'll mix things up, but only for so long.

I must admit, this is true. But if they aim for infrastructural damage holding ground won't be important, on top of that because they can build so many battle droids they can afford to throw troops at the enemy merely to cause a distraction. I wouldn't underestimate the Terror Troops though, if used effectively they can be devastating.

[Beniboybling]

I'd be interested to here arguments on how Traya and G0-T0 plan to corner and kill each other as the war goes on, because lets face it for both parties its going to be largely peripheral for their grander schemes.

[Aurbere]

I must admit, this is true. But if they aim for infrastructural damage holding ground won't be important, on top of that because they can build so many battle droids they can afford to throw troops at the enemy merely to cause a distraction. I wouldn't underestimate the Terror Troops though, if used effectively they can be devastating.

 

Well, I don't have the second Force Unleashed novel, so I don't have an accurate means of judging the Terror Troops. I'm sure they are quite effective.

[Aurbere]

I'd be interested to here arguments on how Traya and G0-T0 plan to corner and kill each other as the war goes on, because lets face it for both parties its going to be largely peripheral for their grander schemes.

 

Well, I think it's obvious that G0-T0's numbers are going to eventually overwhelm the Imperium, so I'll make a plan around that.

[ShadowMudkip]

Well, I think it's obvious that G0-T0's numbers are going to eventually overwhelm the Imperium, so I'll make a plan around that.

 

I agree, the Imperium's going to have to be able to knock out GO-TO's infrastructure and support networks in order to overcome the large numbers.

[Aurbere]

I agree, the Imperium's going to have to be able to knock out GO-TO's infrastructure and support networks in order to overcome the large numbers.

 

Easily done with the wide array of stealth tech at the Imperium's disposal.

[tunewalker]

Easily done with the wide array of stealth tech at the Imperium's disposal.

 

I have to agree with this. The imperium's ground forces can easily cripple production with steatlhed attacks. Especially considering most of the gaurds of the DS's facilities are dumb droids (while there may be a few smart ones, I doubt you will have to many smart ones on gaurd duty) as such even unstealthed targets specializing in espionage can likely sneak by and wreck the factories, or even reprogram them to make droids that turn on a command. A droid Order 66 if you will, with no one being the wiser.

 

Also I am not sure who has the fighting advantage here. As in straight fight initially obviously stealth tech would give the DI a great advantage of picking and choosing its fights much easier and thus allow it to twist more into their favor, but I am talking full navy vs full Navy. I want to say the DI has the advantage here despite the numbers because I still feel the Rakatta Harrowers to be the Imp II's of their time, the standard Harrower's being the Imp I of their time, as beni pointed out Imp I's were used more then the Imp II's and the Imp II's were quite a bit better then imp I's having almost double the firepower of the Imp I and as I pointed out they likely didnt fight more then 2:1 odds so I would likely call the Harrowers closer to Nebula-class having a slight advantage over even the "imp II" of their time, but still just slight. All-in-all I am not sure how many of what is out there, but with the strength and likely number of Harrowers I want to give the DI advantage in space superiority, because even if they cant overcome the DS with numbers the ability to pick and choose fights will definately work towards their advantage to cause a small dwindling, but larger enough for the DI to take the little advantage they need.

 

 

While I was originally thinking I would go with the DS here, the more I think about it the more I think the DI has the advantage here. This extremely stealthy group, can likely cripple through sabotage the main advantages of the DS until what once was the DS's strength is then the DI's while the DI still retains all of its original strengths.