Kaggath Tournament Finals - Droid Supremacy vs Dark Imperium

[Selenial]

Well, I'll make my own scenario then.

 

Opening Stages

In the beginning of the Kaggath, Traya knows she has the numbers and production disadvantage. She orders Trench to strike at the location that will hopefully correct that issue for her, Mon Cal. As her fleet arrives, stealthed, the DS defenders are entirely unaware. The defenses are small compared to the firepower Trench brings and he quickly defeats them suffering practically no losses. As they begin to subdue any saboteurs in the shipyards, G0-T0 having heard of the stealth ships and knowing what Traya's goals are in capturing this planet, orders all his droids (Astromechs etc...) to comply with the DI and wait for future orders.

Thats not quite possible though.

Droids are scanned for malware, so they cannot stay hidden for long.

And yes, when a droid army is fighting you, ran by a droid that you specifically know can hack any droid, you're smart enough to check your droids.

 

Traya knows G0-T0 people.

G0-T0, now knowing where the DS's stealth fleet is, makes his own offensive simultaneously. Striking 3 DI planets at once, he hits Saleucami, Bonadan, and Raxus Prime.

..... Really?

• On Saleucami, his ships run the OCF's defenses (despite Traya foreseeing the battle and ordering more ships from Bonadan or Raxus Secundus) and land thousands of droids and many Terror Droids on the surface and meet up with Exchange cells. Together they seize the cloning facilities and major cities, effectively taking the planet though they are still trapped on it with the OCF still in orbit.
  Unfortunately this doesn't work.
  Warren doesn't have the forces for this.
  Her ships can't run blockades AND land thousands of troops, because they'd be annihilated whilst trying to land them. The first fleet battle has to be won.
  
• On Bonadan, a slightly larger fleet of DS ships engages the smaller OCF forces over the planet and win with a combination of boarding some of the Venators (which are actually well known for being boarded and captured rather easily by droid forces) and overwhelming the other ships. (I say this because Bonadan is a relatively less important world than the other DI worlds so it would obviously have a slightly smaller fleet.
  It wouldn't have a smaller fleet.
  It's Sienars world, so at minimum it's got some of those ships to back them up. Combined with the OCF, and every single smuggler on the planet, it's enough to thwart any attackinfn fleet (considering Warrens fleet is smaller too!
  
• Over Raxus, Traya has massed enough of the OCF to repel and defeat the DS force she foresaw. However, since communication between G0-T0 and the core was done through computer code she could not foresee their alliance. G0-T0's forces manage to get onto the surface of Raxus and take control of the Ore Cannon. When G0-T0's fleet engages the DI's fleet the cannon opens up on the OCF and Raxus falls to the DS in its entirety.

Raxus needs no such reinforcements.

The mandatory defending it, along with a small Venator escort would rip through the DS fleets like a lightsaber through butter. The DS fleets would be running as if they had a randy rancor chasing then within the opening minutes

 

 

But In all seriousness, as soon as the astromechs are detected, the MSF becomes invisible again. They could also aid any fleet they see as in danger.

 

Whilst defending Mon Cala anyway.

Countermoves

Traya orders Trench to press the attack, certain that the DS can not touch her on Malachor. Trench moves next to Geonosis, intent on stopping the DS from reinforcing its ground forces in DI space. He quickly routs the token DS force over Geonosis and begins landing Assassins and Shadow troopers on the ground while his bombers siege the factories from above. After several days, the DI's forces finally manage to mop up the last of the factories, suffering little in the way of casualties. Trench then advances on Kamino and employs a similar strategy, this time suffering greater losses as the overconfident assassins are surprised by the Terror Troopers and are ripped apart several times before bringing down the shields. Trench's ground forces at this point are starting to wear thin.

No ground forces are needed for these assaults.

 

Ships can slip through shields and destroy factories, bombers can drop their load and retreat to a safe distance in time. And once a single stealth ship breaches Kaminos planetary shield, destruction can commence.

G0-T0 is very aware of how poorly the fighting is going in DS space. Yet with his foothold on Raxus he can produce more Venators and frigates. With the OCF over Saleucami and Raxus Secundus lacking reinforcements, G0-T0 is confident he can strike and defeat the DI's naval forces. He brings the full force of his fleet, newly re-armed, enlarged, and supplied onto Saleucami in order to free his new source of Terror Troopers, droid forces, and Exchange allies. Traya foresees his attack, and orders the entire remnants of the OCF to defend and defeat G0-T0's fleet. She has newly constructed stealth ships from Mon Cal join the battle.

Why is the Mon Cal advantage for the DI not mentioned here? They can out produce G0-T0. Although again, G0-T0 didn't win the battle over Raxus, and the core was destroyed by Traya, so it's fine

As G0-T0 begins to engage, his link to the droids from Mon Cal, many now aboard the new Harrowers, warns him of the stealth ships. It is at this moment he calculates his next move. He engages tentatively. Seeing hesitation, Maul orders a full attack. The Harrowers unstealth and fire. G0-T0, however, was careful to keep most of his fleet out of the Harrower's field of fire and withdraws. He has a new plan.

I believe I made my thoughts on this clear, so I'll leave it for now.

Cutting off the Body

G0-T0 saw how Traya congregated her forces in an attempt to eliminate his main fleet. He readies his entire fleet for a strike on Mon Cal, with the intent of eliminating the DS's only source of ship production. Traya foresees his amassing ships at Raxus and attack on Mon Cal. She orders Trench to attack at Raxus, convinced a quick strike will win the war. Trench convinces her that it would be unwise due to the Ore Cannon and sets his trap over Mon Cal. G0-T0 and HK-01 get ready to deploy the droid control signal.

 

As the DS fleet arrives in system, G0-T0 immediately knows where the DI stealthed ships are by using the visual records of his spy droids in the shipyards and the signals from his spy droids on many of the the Harrowers especially the new ones. The remainders of the OCF have already arrived and G0-T0 moves the main body of his fleet to engage. As Trench orders the Stealth ships to close in and then engage, G0-T0 and HK-01 deploy their signal. The OCF begins receiving reports from the shipyards that entire facilities have been captured by droids and some of the unfinished ships with skeleton crews begin leaving the docks and attempt to ram the OCF ships. Meanwhile those same ships are quelling the droids on their own ships (with some success) and busy engaging G0-T0's main fleet.

 

More importantly though, the stealth fleet comes out of stealth quickly, and its shields and weapons are temporarily inoperable as droids begin to sabotage system after system. G0-T0 orders a part of the fleet he kept in reserve to attack, and quickly frigates and transports are atop the Harrowers, doing severe damage to some and beginning boarding others.

 

As droids swarm the Harrowers from within and without, several ships fall under DS sway quickly. Since the droids have both manual and computer control of all systems they quickly restore weapons and shields. By this time the few Harrowers that weren't destroyed outright or boarded have also restored their systems. As they move to engage in the main battle, they ignore the other Harrowers doing the same, until those ships open fire on their rears. Now surrounded, Trench's ship as well as several other Harrowers that managed to survive are obliterated by their own advanced technology combined with sheer numbers. This tips the entire battle heavily into the DS's favor and the DI's fleet is destroyed entirely.

 

Traya senses the defeat, and is most displeased. She now must task Maul (who against all odds survived) and HK-47 to eliminate HK-01 and G0-T0.

And again, unfortunately... This wouldn't happen.

And again, I see no reason there'd even be a "remainder" of the OCF.

By this time, hell, Mon Cala could have forged a new mandator as well.

Retaliation

Maul and HK-47 begin their search on Nar Shadda, G0-T0's known place of business and source of the HK-01 signal. They find HK-01, but G0-T0 knows of their presence through underworld contacts on the planet and his own link into Network Security. He knows everything that happens on Nar Shadda.

 

He finds HK-47 and waits till he and Maul are separated before giving HK a trail to follow. HK quickly finds G0-T0 but HK is hacked quickly. Now under G0-T0's control, he seeks out Maul and HK-01 to eliminate them and proceed to Traya to eliminate her as well. Maul and HK find HK-01 and destroys him (a challenger to G0-T0's rule and useless now anyways), then HK-47 attempts to kill Maul when he doesn't expect it. Unfortunately Maul is far too good for that and after a fight dispatches HK-47.

 

G0-T0 is unhappy about this, as his initial plan to reach Traya was apparently unsuccessful. Maul, realizing his cover is blown, fights his way off the planet and returns to Traya for new orders.

Ill post my plans for this later.

Endgame

 

By this point, the war is over. G0-T0 has finished his takeover of the DI worlds and now sits in orbit over Malachor.

 

One of several possibilities here.

• He sits this fleet there for however long it take Traya to die of age, starvation, boredom etc...
  
• He uses his new superpowered Harrower weapons to fire at the planet till they hit Traya or the planet blows up.
  
• He has centuries to build a Death Star or some superweapon of equal power to make the problem go away.
  
• He has Guri, or PROXY pilot (they were decent pilots iirc) transports to the surface loaded with Terror Troopers and B-1's until Traya dies from a luck shot or sheer numbers.
  
• He can order ship after ship (Venator size or larger) to smash into the planet until Traya is crushed.
  

Many flaws IMO, and way longer than I was expecting, (I was just doing a mon cala scenario ) but nice work!

[StarSquirrel]

Thats not quite possible though.

Droids are scanned for malware, so they cannot stay hidden for long.

And yes, when a droid army is fighting you, ran by a droid that you specifically know can hack any droid, you're smart enough to check your droids.

You're joking right? Unless they literally shut every droid down and combed their programming or rewrote it they'd never find anything. G0-T0 as a computer would literally change the droid's basic code to serve him. Their program would be dormant or masked as a legitimate program (or it'd piggyback). Seriously if a virus can do that to my computer to get around my anti-malware protections a droid thousands of times smarter would do it easily. Oh, and simple memory wipes won't work btw, like I said G0-T0 would make his commands a part of the base code.

 

And even if for a moment they tried to shut all the droids down (it'd have to be simultaneous to prevent the virus for reinfecting via the network) then the shipyards would be out of commission for months or longer leading to an even worse scenario for the DI. You only hurt yourself arguing this point Sel.

 

Traya knows G0-T0 people.

And vice versa, but she honestly has a poor outlook on droids. She considers them inferior and would not contemplate the possibilities. She's never encountered a droid opponent on this scale before she has no clue what he is capable of.

 

..... Really?

Well gee, I have my fleet amassed and *bam* an enemy fleet shows up out of nowhere over another of my worlds, obviously decloaking right in front of plenty of visual sensors, and now that I know where that fleet is with all the heavy firepower (and G0-T0 knows about the OCF and its capabilities even if he doesn't know about the MSF) so wouldn't it all be quite obvious what to do?

Unfortunately this doesn't work.

Warren doesn't have the forces for this.

Her ships can't run blockades AND land thousands of troops, because they'd be annihilated whilst trying to land them. The first fleet battle has to be won.

Well, no you'd be incorrect there. First, G0-T0 has access to smugglers. Smugglers who run blockades all the time. Second, he has access to Exchange resources. If a few Terror Troopers are deployed and they work with the Exchange cell on the ground it would be quite easy to capture or bribe key officials and installations to allow supply ships (secretly droid transports) to land. Heck they don't even have to worry about life-signs or scans. They would have perhaps a token force engage while other transports slip in from other sides and the droids already on the ground clear landing space. As for ground numbers, even just the starting numbers for the DS's ground forces alone would be enough to conquer Saleucami not to mention the numbers they'd have after a few days on Geonosis and Ship from Bothawui could easily pick them up on their way to the front (or heck, G0-T0 can hire a few bulk transports)

It wouldn't have a smaller fleet.

It's Sienars world, so at minimum it's got some of those ships to back them up. Combined with the OCF, and every single smuggler on the planet, it's enough to thwart any attackinfn fleet (considering Warrens fleet is smaller too!

This is a two part joke isn't it? Firstly, I see no mention of Bonadan being the homeworld for Sinear tech. It isn't btw, in fact there is no reference to Santhe/Sienar having any relation at all to Bonadan and even then they wouldn't have many ships operating so quickly into the Kaggath to support their defense. If you'd like to cite any relation between Santhe/Sienar and Bonadan feel free but my research has shown that there is no link. Perhaps you meant Byblos when you were picking your planets?

 

Also, smugglers? siding with Traya over the Underworld boss G0-T0? Not only does G0-T0 have more money with which to buy their loyalty, they have more than likely heard of him from other smugglers and know it would be better to side with him than let a sith take over.

 

Either way, G0-T0's fleet drastically outnumbers the DI's and with the OCF already being smaller thanks to it being one of two, G0-T0's forces will not have trouble swarming them and boarding them as I suggested especially as divided as they'd be

Raxus needs no such reinforcements.

The mandatory defending it, along with a small Venator escort would rip through the DS fleets like a lightsaber through butter. The DS fleets would be running as if they had a randy rancor chasing then within the opening minutes.

You can't be serious in thinking a few elements of the OCF can survive the ore cannon ripping through the Matador as The Venators are being boarded and the rest of the fleet scattered to the wind. Traya is more cautious than that in battle, she would at least give herself the best chance for success and assuming she even foresees the attack here (I'd assume she's see one or two visions of this battle since it is probably her most important planet) she'd call for back-up to ensure a victory. She can't or won't recall the Stealth Fleet as it is doing perfectly well in DS space anyways and she doesn't anticipate defeat.

 

 

But In all seriousness, as soon as the astromechs are detected, the MSF becomes invisible again. They could also aid any fleet they see as in danger.

 

Whilst defending Mon Cala anyway.

 

 

Ships can slip through shields and destroy factories, bombers can drop their load and retreat to a safe distance in time. And once a single stealth ship breaches Kaminos planetary shield, destruction can commence.

These are kinda odd comments honestly. I have yet to mention astromechs at this point in my scenario. Also the DI cannot afford to allow the DS to out produce them by having the Stealth fleet bounce around trying to find G0-T0. You're under the impression that somehow the Stealth Fleet can be anywhere, that is simply ridiculous.

 

Also as I mentioned, it is not nearly as simple breaching the shields as you seem to think. They would not have planetary shields if it were as easy to knock out as you make it seem. No, it takes time to infiltrate on the ground to reach the generators, stealthed or not the bombers would simple be unable to reach the ones on Geonosis and on Kamino again, it isn't that easy either or the CIS would have done it long ago.

 

Why is the Mon Cal advantage for the DI not mentioned here? They can out produce G0-T0. Although again, G0-T0 didn't win the battle over Raxus, and the core was destroyed by Traya, so it's fine

It is, they can once they get the shipyards repaired and I mention those new Stealth Ships in the Mon Cal battle. G0-T0 won't leave them neat and tidy for the DI. He'll sabotage them before leaving and put a dozen or more viruses into the computers. G0-T0 can set the DI back weeks before they can even start building ships again. The DI can try to blast their own shipyards over Raxus, but G0-T0 would have the droids wholly on his side by that point and the DI fleet would fall pretty quickly with the Ore Cannon obliterating it.

 

G0-T0 quite obviously won the battle over Raxus, something you'll have to get used to. Win a few lose a few, and the core is very much alive, though how long G0-T0 permits that is a matter of speculation and is inconsequential considering G0-T0 has all he need from it. There have been many arguments on this point made with a rather firm consensus being that it is likely G0-T0 will get the Core's help and Traya will know nothing of it.

 

I believe I made my thoughts on this clear, so I'll leave it for now.

Yes, you've made your thoughts clear.

 

And again, unfortunately... This wouldn't happen.

There you go, wishful thinking. Seriously, at this point she's lost everything what else does she do?

And again, I see no reason there'd even be a "remainder" of the OCF.

By this time, hell, Mon Cala could have forged a new mandator as well.

Mon Cala fell back to the DS if you recall. Anyhow, they'd have no time and besides they have nowhere to build fighters since Bonadan and Raxus have fallen and they can't do everything at Mon Cala. You can build a Mandator but there will be few fighters inside and I imagine Stealth ships would be preferable. Either way it doesn't really change the scenario at all. Except perhaps there are fewer Harrowers to destroy once the droids capture their share.

Many flaws IMO, and way longer than I was expecting, (I was just doing a mon cala scenario ) but nice work!

Yes, I started and couldn't stop so I figured I'd go the whole way.

Edited April 4, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Selenial]

You're joking right? Unless they literally shut every droid down and combed their programming or rewrote it they'd never find anything. G0-T0 as a computer would literally change the droid's basic code to serve him. Their program would be dormant or masked as a legitimate program (or it'd piggyback). Seriously if a virus can do that to my computer to get around my anti-malware protections a droid thousands of times smarter would do it easily. Oh, and simple memory wipes won't work btw, like I said G0-T0 would make his commands a part of the base code.

 

And even if for a moment they tried to shut all the droids down (it'd have to be simultaneous to prevent the virus for reinfecting via the network) then the shipyards would be out of commission for months or longer leading to an even worse scenario for the DI. You only hurt yourself arguing this point Sel.

It doesn't reinfect via the network.

 

All of G0-T0's hacking techniques, along with HK's need active signals.

This hacking would HAVE to happen whilst G0-T0 has forces there.

Ahhh, were you not that active during Aurberes match?

I'll get the quote from Dark Rendezvous.... However it basically said that the Trade Federation were corrupting republic droids, making cleaning, utility and protocall droids go on murderous killing sprees. Sound familiar? There was a simple scan to locate this.

 

And Traya knows the capabilities of droids even if she doesn't use them. She fought G0-T0.

On the other hand, G0-T0 knows nothing of her skill in the force..

 

Well gee, I have my fleet amassed and *bam* an enemy fleet shows up out of nowhere over another of my worlds, obviously decloaking right in front of plenty of visual sensors, and now that I know where that fleet is with all the heavy firepower (and G0-T0 knows about the OCF and its capabilities even if he doesn't know about the MSF) so wouldn't it all be quite obvious what to do?

 

Well, no you'd be incorrect there. First, G0-T0 has access to smugglers. Smugglers who run blockades all the time. Second, he has access to Exchange resources. If a few Terror Troopers are deployed and they work with the Exchange cell on the ground it would be quite easy to capture or bribe key officials and installations to allow supply ships (secretly droid transports) to land. Heck they don't even have to worry about life-signs or scans. They would have perhaps a token force engage while other transports slip in from other sides and the droids already on the ground clear landing space. As for ground numbers, even just the starting numbers for the DS's ground forces alone would be enough to conquer Saleucami not to mention the numbers they'd have after a few days on Geonosis and Ship from Bothawui could easily pick them up on their way to the front (or heck, G0-T0 can hire a few bulk transports)

[/color]

Except the only forces she can Land without space superiority are Terror Droids.

Which won't be large enough to take out an entire planet as you suggest, if they have to put up with bombings etc.

 

And Saluecami doesn't get much import, so you can't exactly disguise like that.

This is a two part joke isn't it? Firstly, I see no mention of Bonadan being the homeworld for Sinear tech. It isn't btw, in fact there is no reference to Santhe/Sienar having any relation at all to Bonadan and even then they wouldn't have many ships operating so quickly into the Kaggath to support their defense. If you'd like to cite any relation between Santhe/Sienar and Bonadan feel free but my research has shown that there is no link. Perhaps you meant Byblos when you were picking your planets?

 

Also, smugglers? siding with Traya over the Underworld boss G0-T0? Not only does G0-T0 have more money with which to buy their loyalty, they have more than likely heard of him from other smugglers and know it would be better to side with him than let a sith take over.

 

Either way, G0-T0's fleet drastically outnumbers the DI's and with the OCF already being smaller thanks to it being one of two, G0-T0's forces will not have trouble swarming them and boarding them as I suggested especially as divided as they'd be

And this is why solely getting things off Wookieepedia leads to a failed argument.

 

Bonadan was one f the many supply hubs for the Santhe corporation, and almost every business that frequented those space ports traded with officials there.

 

It would be protected.

 

Now, let's do some maths here.

I love maths.

 

If Warrens fleet wants to attack, without fear of Utter annihilation of all their defense forces by the MSF, then they can spare at most, 60 ships.

Let's say 20 to each world, just to make this easy.

My forces number 30 overall, without my supplier.

That's 15 OCF ships.

About 10 Venators, 1 mandator and 4 acclamators.

 

Now, Warrens ships are small, slow, and pretty weak.

The OCF was DESIGNED to face a force that was focussing on Strength in Numbers.

1 Venator would be worth about 4 of her frigates without their fighters. And the sheer amount of fighters would make it 5.

 

That means I need 4 venators on each world.

 

But I can't do that. I have 10.

So I split them like this.

4 at Bonadaan, 1 acclamator.

3 at saleucami, 3 acclamators.

2 at Raxus, 1 Mandator.

 

Oh, and then I have 8 Sienar battle cruisers (like my Interdiction ships, and the imperial cruisers) to add on too.

 

Even without the MSF, I have the advantage here.

You can't be serious in thinking a few elements of the OCF can survive the ore cannon ripping through the Matador as The Venators are being boarded and the rest of the fleet scattered to the wind. Traya is more cautious than that in battle, she would at least give herself the best chance for success and assuming she even foresees the attack here (I'd assume she's see one or two visions of this battle since it is probably her most important planet) she'd call for back-up to ensure a victory. She can't or won't recall the Stealth Fleet as it is doing perfectly well in DS space anyways and she doesn't anticipate defeat.

 

You need to remember things from previous Kaggaths.

The ore canon is fixed in place.

1 mandator has 3000 fighters

2 venators have 840.

That's enough to stop boarders.

[/color]

These are kinda odd comments honestly. I have yet to mention astromechs at this point in my scenario. Also the DI cannot afford to allow the DS to out produce them by having the Stealth fleet bounce around trying to find G0-T0. You're under the impression that somehow the Stealth Fleet can be anywhere, that is simply ridiculous.

 

Also as I mentioned, it is not nearly as simple breaching the shields as you seem to think. They would not have planetary shields if it were as easy to knock out as you make it seem. No, it takes time to infiltrate on the ground to reach the generators, stealthed or not the bombers would simple be unable to reach the ones on Geonosis and on Kamino again, it isn't that easy either or the CIS would have done it long ago.

It is that possible though.

Planetary shields stop orbital bombardment, and allow detection of entering ships.

However, the MSF are stealthed, so that advantage fails.

 

And you did mention Astromechs. In your first Paragraph.

And again, in the eyes of G0-T0, that Stealth fleet CAN be anywhere.

 

It is, they can once they get the shipyards repaired and I mention those new Stealth Ships in the Mon Cal battle. G0-T0 won't leave them neat and tidy for the DI. He'll sabotage them before leaving and put a dozen or more viruses into the computers. G0-T0 can set the DI back weeks before they can even start building ships again. The DI can try to blast their own shipyards over Raxus, but G0-T0 would have the droids wholly on his side by that point and the DI fleet would fall pretty quickly with the Ore Cannon obliterating it.

Which would require transmitters which he doesn't have in Mon Cala.

But yeh, with the MSF at full force, she'd produce more Venators.

G0-T0 quite obviously won the battle over Raxus, something you'll have to get used to. Win a few lose a few, and the core is very much alive, though how long G0-T0 permits that is a matter of speculation and is inconsequential considering G0-T0 has all he need from it. There have been many arguments on this point made with a rather firm consensus being that it is likely G0-T0 will get the Core's help and Traya will know nothing of it.

Thats up for debate.

Yes, you've made your thoughts clear.

 

There you go, wishful thinking. Seriously, at this point she's lost everything what else does she do?

 

Mon Cala fell back to the DS if you recall. Anyhow, they'd have no time and besides they have nowhere to build fighters since Bonadan and Raxus have fallen and they can't do everything at Mon Cala. You can build a Mandator but there will be few fighters inside and I imagine Stealth ships would be preferable. Either way it doesn't really change the scenario at all. Except perhaps there are fewer Harrowers to destroy once the droids capture their share.

Which doesn't happen if Traya detects the Madware.

Yes, I started and couldn't stop so I figured I'd go the whole way.

I'll post mine later. Sufficed to say they're different.

If you want the quote on the malware I'll post it, but I thought that didn't get points anymore.

[Aurbere]

We're already going with scenarios? I thought we would discuss fleet match-ups and strategies more first.

[StarSquirrel]

It doesn't reinfect via the network.

 

All of G0-T0's hacking techniques, along with HK's need active signals.

This hacking would HAVE to happen whilst G0-T0 has forces there.

Ahhh, were you not that active during Aurberes match?

I'll get the quote from Dark Rendezvous.... However it basically said that the Trade Federation were corrupting republic droids, making cleaning, utility and protocall droids go on murderous killing sprees. Sound familiar? There was a simple scan to locate this.

 

And Traya knows the capabilities of droids even if she doesn't use them. She fought G0-T0.

On the other hand, G0-T0 knows nothing of her skill in the force..

 

No, again he could very easily rewrite the droid's base code and that would most certainly not require an active signal. Perhaps if I was speaking of taking control you'd be correct. Yes I was very active during the discussion about G0-T0's hacking abilities (I was arguing against it) so I know exactly its limitations. The fact you can't remember that makes me think you're ill equipped to argue this though.

 

Yes, and I never said G0-T0 would employ that type of corruption. He'd leave it dormant to use when needed. Also, a change in the very basic code of a droid will not appear odd if every single droid captured by the DI exhibits the same code. Until the droids turn there would be absolutely no warning. Reread that whole paragraph if you will.

 

Except the only forces she can Land without space superiority are Terror Droids.

Which won't be large enough to take out an entire planet as you suggest, if they have to put up with bombings etc.

 

And Saluecami doesn't get much import, so you can't exactly disguise like that.

 

They wouldn't have to put up with bombings at first if you recall the scenario at all. With the Exchange's help and wealth they can get supply ships loaded with droids clearance to land. There is civilian traffic on Saleucami just as there has been on every other major world in every other Kaggath so far.

 

Also Saleucami imports food and raw materials. They need those to survive economically, so yes they do import. And droids would be quite easy to disguise as raw materials. Combined with the fact Terror droids would help the Exchange remove anyone in their way they can easily take over the docks (like the crime syndicates did on Mandalore) and import a few thousand droids under the DI's nose.

 

Even without that, a small fleet engaging the OCF elements over Saleucami could provide enough of a distraction to land a few large transports loaded with droids to help take the planet. Once in the cities the bombers wont be enough and the DI lacks a ground military presence regardless.

 

And this is why solely getting things off Wookieepedia leads to a failed argument.

 

Bonadan was one f the many supply hubs for the Santhe corporation, and almost every business that frequented those space ports traded with officials there.

 

It would be protected.

Cite that or it doesn't exist Sel. I've looked everywhere I have access to and see nothing. Also, just because they have a presence on the world doesn't make that presence important to Santhe/Sienar and even then it doesn't mean Traya will agree and dedicate much of her forces to defending a planet that has significantly less production than say, Raxus. You're making a string of assumptions and if even one falls through your whole premise falls apart. Those are the kind of unsound arguments I dislike.

Now, let's do some maths here.

I love maths.

 

If Warrens fleet wants to attack, without fear of Utter annihilation of all their defense forces by the MSF, then they can spare at most, 60 ships.

Let's say 20 to each world, just to make this easy.

My forces number 30 overall, without my supplier.

That's 15 OCF ships.

About 10 Venators, 1 mandator and 4 acclamators.

You're this far in and have already made a mistake. G0-T0, after his loss at Mon Cala, knows he can't win in space. He won't waste ships defending worlds when his plan is to all-out destory the DI's fleet's ability to support itself.

 

So you can add at least 60 or more ships to that attacking fleet, my, my, see how it changes the battle huh? I have to go for the moment, but I'll be back to discuss the rest.

[ShadowMudkip]

We're already going with scenarios? I thought we would discuss fleet match-ups and strategies more first.

 

Yea, lets not rush this. It might be more fun to debate more topics.

[StarSquirrel]

Yea, lets not rush this. It might be more fun to debate more topics.

Eh, got carried away. Besides, its just my opinion so we can leave it and I'll just repost it later when we get into more serious discussion of scenarios.

 

Also fleet strength and deployment as well as overall strategy are probably going to be critical imo.

[ShadowMudkip]

Eh, got carried away. Besides, its just my opinion so we can leave it and I'll just repost it later when we get into more serious discussion of scenarios.

 

Also fleet strength and deployment as well as overall strategy are probably going to be critical imo.

 

Normally by now we are on like page 20.

 

Question, when can Traya use her shatterpoint? Because as of now its just been "Traya wins cuz shatterpoint herp derp." Can Traya actively search for things in the future or is she not in control of it? What constitutes a shatterpoint?

[Selenial]

No, again he could very easily rewrite the droid's base code and that would most certainly not require an active signal. Perhaps if I was speaking of taking control you'd be correct. Yes I was very active during the discussion about G0-T0's hacking abilities (I was arguing against it) so I know exactly its limitations. The fact you can't remember that makes me think you're ill equipped to argue this though.

 

Yes, and I never said G0-T0 would employ that type of corruption. He'd leave it dormant to use when needed. Also, a change in the very basic code of a droid will not appear odd if every single droid captured by the DI exhibits the same code. Until the droids turn there would be absolutely no warning. Reread that whole paragraph if you will.

 

He could rewrite based codes in the factory's droids, but not those in the harrower like you suggested.

And I've yet to hear a solid argument about why the hell Traya would even use those factory droids.

"Hmmm, there's a faction run by droids, using droids, and hacking droids. I capture a space station full of their droids. Let's just use the enemy droids cuz herpaderp reazonz lawlz"

 

They wouldn't have to put up with bombings at first if you recall the scenario at all. With the Exchange's help and wealth they can get supply ships loaded with droids clearance to land. There is civilian traffic on Saleucami just as there has been on every other major world in every other Kaggath so far.

 

Also Saleucami imports food and raw materials. They need those to survive economically, so yes they do import. And droids would be quite easy to disguise as raw materials. Combined with the fact Terror droids would help the Exchange remove anyone in their way they can easily take over the docks (like the crime syndicates did on Mandalore) and import a few thousand droids under the DI's nose.

Saleucami does not have much Civillian traffic. Like, at all.

It was a farming world, and then a Techno Union world with the intent of changing into a factory world.

It's inhabitants was a pathetic 1.4 billion.

Their imports are only food and raw materials, and the raw materials are mainly used for the droid foundries, so there's not even really that.

And the exchange won't help G0-T0, but we'll get to that later.

 

Also, you'll hate this.. But visions.

Even without that, a small fleet engaging the OCF elements over Saleucami could provide enough of a distraction to land a few large transports loaded with droids to help take the planet. Once in the cities the bombers wont be enough and the DI lacks a ground military presence regardless.

An Amusing claim, but not one that's really true.

Trench is a defensive master, his blockades have been described as "impenetrable." I'd like to see any droid find, or punch, a hole in that.

 

I'd also say that every single ship that enters Bonadan was scanned for weaponry. Even the most hardened and tough freighters and captains wouldn't dare try smuggle weapons in, I see no reason this could not be applied to Saleucami.

 

Cite that or it doesn't exist Sel. I've looked everywhere I have access to and see nothing. Also, just because they have a presence on the world doesn't make that presence important to Santhe/Sienar and even then it doesn't mean Traya will agree and dedicate much of her forces to defending a planet that has significantly less production than say, Raxus. You're making a string of assumptions and if even one falls through your whole premise falls apart. Those are the kind of unsound arguments I dislike.

Im in Greece, so no.

When I get back, sure.

However I can tell you now it was likely deduced from multiple statements from the essential guides, or a comic.

 

And Traya has reasons to defend it.

She'd also see which world had the strongest attack force via her visions. She's on Malachor for a reason.

You're this far in and have already made a mistake. G0-T0, after his loss at Mon Cala, knows he can't win in space. He won't waste ships defending worlds when his plan is to all-out destory the DI's fleet's ability to support itself.

 

So you can add at least 60 or more ships to that attacking fleet, my, my, see how it changes the battle huh? I have to go for the moment, but I'll be back to discuss the rest.

 

No, it is you who made the mistake.

Firstly, I have interdictors.

So this battle occurs on my ground, if Traya wants the stealth fleet back in time for the battle it will be there by use of interdiction technology.

Also, another mistake is you misreading what I, and others, have said, Warrens fleet is not 120 interceptors. She has smaller ships in there too. My fleets are all Venators, with a small number of Acclamators.

And then you lack the tacticians.

 

Trench would be a hard Admiral to overcome. Your fleets are commanded by droids, which are laughable at best.

I have squadrons of Tie Defenders piloted by Dark Jedi too, which is yet another factor to add in.

 

That's the DI vs the Ds in a nutshell.

DS is strength in ludicrously high numbers,

DI is strength in overpowered technology, refined numbers, tactical ingenuity, and.... Traya.

[Selenial]

Normally by now we are on like page 20.

 

Question, when can Traya use her shatterpoint? Because as of now its just been "Traya wins cuz shatterpoint herp derp." Can Traya actively search for things in the future or is she not in control of it? What constitutes a shatterpoint?

 

Im I'm Greece, and preparing more for my next faction than this

 

As for her shatter point, she uses it freely as Windu did. She's used it to find the shatter point of the Jedi order, G0-T0's exchange cell, the Exile, Etc.

 

She can use it for organisations and combat.

And a shatter point is generally something which when removed, damaged, or destroyed, sets off a massive chain of events that cripple or destroy something. IE, finding one plug socket, shooting it, and having all of coruscants lights go out.

 

That sort of thing.

[Aurbere]

What are we looking at for fighter numbers for both sides? Right now I'm assuming that the DI has the numerical edge in that regard, but I could use some clarification.

[StarSquirrel]

He could rewrite based codes in the factory's droids, but not those in the harrower like you suggested.

And I've yet to hear a solid argument about why the hell Traya would even use those factory droids.

"Hmmm, there's a faction run by droids, using droids, and hacking droids. I capture a space station full of their droids. Let's just use the enemy droids cuz herpaderp reazonz lawlz"

Alright, Firstly he would only rewrite the codes of the droids on the Mon Cala shipyards and all droids produced there.

 

Why wouldn't Traya use these droids? Well for starters all her factory worlds would have been taken or besieged already, and add to that it'd take a hell of a lot of time to replace every droid in the Shipyards on top of that. To boot G0-T0 isn't stupid. He knows she would expect him to leave the droids with something, so he'll give her a program they can deal with to sait their suspicions. Traya's ideas of droid inferiority would come back to bite her here, thinking they'd already dealt with G0-T0's tricks.

 

Oh, and if she doesn't use the captured droids and instead tries to replace them it would take months or even years to get the shipyards back to a decent level of production. She doesn't have the time if she wants to stay ahead of G0-T0. Plus, she also doesn't have the ships to protect her convoys transporting new droids and G0-T0 might simply raid a ship, rewrite the new droid's code, and send it on. Same issue, still there.

 

And Traya doesn't know the full extent of G0-T0's hacking abilities. She knows nothing about HK-01 and the signal and she routinely shows a disdain and dismissiveness of droids. If she is told that her techs found all G0-T0's programs she'll believe them, she has no reason not to and every reason to need them to be right./color]

 

Saleucami does not have much Civillian traffic. Like, at all.

It was a farming world, and then a Techno Union world with the intent of changing into a factory world.

It's inhabitants was a pathetic 1.4 billion.

Their imports are only food and raw materials, and the raw materials are mainly used for the droid foundries, so there's not even really that.

And the exchange won't help G0-T0, but we'll get to that later.

 

Also, you'll hate this.. But visions.

You literally just made my point for me. "the raw materials are mainly used for the droid foundries"... so droids, made up of the same materials, would appear to a scan to be exactly what is expected. The Exchange, with all its wealth, reach, and Terror Droids can easily take over the space ports and confirm to the fleet above that the incoming ships are legitimate. Then a few hundred droids disembark at a time and invade the major cities.

 

Oh, and if Traya is really thinking about replacing those droids on Mon Cala then that opens the door wide open for greater raw material shipments and thus more opportunity to bring droids to the planet. Shooting yourself in the foot here.

 

Oh, and to take a page from your book "herpaderp visions lawls". Seriously, Traya doesn't have the ground troops to stop the droids for one unless she wants to give up any idea of attacking DS space. Not to mention this process would be concurrent with the planning and execution of two other simultaneous attacks, something Traya would never be able to predict accurately. Visions is a stupid reason. Yes, she has them. Yes they can help. No they aren't an auto-win card, even with visions it is unlikely she'd be able to accurately understand what was happening and respond.

 

An Amusing claim, but not one that's really true.

Trench is a defensive master, his blockades have been described as "impenetrable." I'd like to see any droid find, or punch, a hole in that.

 

I'd also say that every single ship that enters Bonadan was scanned for weaponry. Even the most hardened and tough freighters and captains wouldn't dare try smuggle weapons in, I see no reason this could not be applied to Saleucami.

Trench? Why the hell would Traya's best admiral be sitting at home watching sports while the DI offensive was in full swing in DS space? Sorry Sel but no, you're admirals can't teleport or whatnot to every battle in an instant.

 

When did I ever say they'd be smuggling anything onto Bonadan? I mean, you're countering points that were never there to begin with. And as for Saleucami, there is no evidence of scanners like that existing on Saleucami nor is there any evidence that, despite the technology being available, that anyone used it on Saleucami so no, your assumptions are you trying to make stuff up because you don't want to admit I have a point.

 

Im in Greece, so no.

When I get back, sure.

However I can tell you now it was likely deduced from multiple statements from the essential guides, or a comic.

 

And Traya has reasons to defend it.

She'd also see which world had the strongest attack force via her visions. She's on Malachor for a reason.

I imagine we have plenty of time, I foresee this Kaggath lasting a while once things pick up more so no rush. And I was insistent about the citing because I can't argue with you when I don't have all the information, I hope I didn't come off snippy and apologize if I did.

 

"herpderp reasons lawls"... And I should point out that on a naval level the force attacking Raxus would be the most powerful and on a ground level Saleucami would be the top, so again your visions argument doesn't stand up very well.

 

No, it is you who made the mistake.

Firstly, I have interdictors.

So this battle occurs on my ground, if Traya wants the stealth fleet back in time for the battle it will be there by use of interdiction technology.

Also, another mistake is you misreading what I, and others, have said, Warrens fleet is not 120 interceptors. She has smaller ships in there too. My fleets are all Venators, with a small number of Acclamators.

And then you lack the tacticians.

First, interdictors? I know, yes the DI can make them but it doesn't start with them. They have to be built, which means there will be very few (if any) by the time the DS strikes in the opening stages.

 

To add to that the, smaller and faster ships of the DS could be used to suicide into or swarm over the interdictors and free their fleet. It would be costly, but to a fleet designed to be built quickly and enmass it would be more of a setback than a deathblow and the loss of interdictors would cause the Di serious issues.

 

Second, That has to be a bad joke. Seriously, all Venators? Beni is she serious? Acclamators made up far more of the fleet especially since they served as the major transports and frigates. I think this is an issue that will have to be debated more. And yes, I was aware of Warren's fleet's limitations but the sheers numbers are what are expected to overcome that.

 

Also, the DI has two tacticians Maul and Trench. Trench can outthink a computer all day long, I admit that. However he will be doing so on the more important front, in DS space and he can't be in two places at once. Maul is hyper aggressive. If his enemy withdraws, he wants to strike. I'd say that trait makes him predictable, but even so he can do some things to try and defeat the droids. However, if his ship starts to get boarded he'll be too busy to issue orders and while he will of course not lose his ship, he'll lose control of the battle. Traya is sitting all Malachor all day, so her skills are wasted and HK-47 is as tactically proficient as Guri, PROXY, or G0-T0 so he'd do no better or worse.

 

I should remind you that even with all those Venators, that class of ship has a serious problem with being boarded especially by droids. The smaller DS ships could be used to land armies of droids on these ships. BAM! more Venators for the DS.

 

Trench would be a hard Admiral to overcome. Your fleets are commanded by droids, which are laughable at best.

I have squadrons of Tie Defenders piloted by Dark Jedi too, which is yet another factor to add in.

 

That's the DI vs the Ds in a nutshell.

DS is strength in ludicrously high numbers,

DI is strength in overpowered technology, refined numbers, tactical ingenuity, and.... Traya.

Droids, you mean the ones that defeated Jedi generals in some engagements? I mean yeah they're not great but they have the skill of an average fleet captain or officer and are many times easier to replace.

 

Yes, your Dark Jedi are fearsome, but again they'd be with the Stealth fleet on the front lines. So for the purposes of this particular discussion that is meaningless.

 

The DS has numbers, production, hacking, underworld, Terror Droids, and Money all in quantities far greater than what the DI can field, great matchup isn't it

[Aurbere]

The DI starts off with Interdictors because of the opening Supplier garrison.

 

I'm not going to join in on the scenario debate right now. Not until we have done a proper comparison of fleets. I want to be as accurate as possible in my arguments, please.

[Beniboybling]

The DI starts off with Interdictors because of the opening Supplier garrison.

 

I'm not going to join in on the scenario debate right now. Not until we have done a proper comparison of fleets. I want to be as accurate as possible in my arguments, please.

I'd just like to point out the Imperium has one of each of the Sienar's models.

[Beniboybling]

Maybe we should narrow are focus to one issue as opposed to multiple.

[StarSquirrel]

Can we debate the actual effectiveness of Traya's visions and Shatterpoint skill then?

 

I'll start with,

 

"I wouldn't trust Jedi farsight all that much if I were you. The Emperor did a lot of that, too. It didn't help him much in the end…"

―Mara Jade[src]

 

Farsight is not quite a vision but rather the ability to perceive through the force vague impressions (emotional and imagery). Many of the users of this ability were known to have been failed by it including: Luke, Anakin, Sidious, Caedus

 

I should stop there as just the fact that three of the most powerful force users ever couldn't accurately use farsight.

 

It has also been used to trap force users, as they can't accurately use it much of the time (Episode V Bespin).

 

Now in combat it saw some success I'll admit, aiding the user to predict their foes several seconds in advance during a duel. But as for overall farsight it is tool to be used cautiously.

The future is always in motion, however, and is thus subject to change.

 

Force Visions are even worse because often they are merely figurative representations of potential futures, few of which ever actual come to fruition at all.

[Selenial]

Often difficult to see, the future is, like searching for raindrops beneath the surface of the water. But raindrops do fall, and discerned in the depths, they can be. Fleeting can be visions of the future, momentary glimpses of both the familiar and the strange. More dangerous are clear visions, as easy it is to confuse clarity with the truth. Truth can be murky, and crucial is perspective to any vision.

 

Frequently am I asked if inevitable is the future. Do visions reveal what may be or what will be? Know you will when a vision is what will be. Feel it by the Force you will. Know you will whether to chase raindrops before they fall or remain where you are. Stay where you are, and move you will anyway. Always in motion is the future.

 

Yoda seems to think that it is skill, Knowledge etc that dictates the powers of Farsight, not force power.

 

Which is what we have seen on countless occasions. This was all coming from a man who's very vision was clouded. By Sidious and the Dark Side of the force.

 

Traya here has no such veils placed over her, and she has the powers and tides of Malachors heart to aid her, her visions are clear and true, we've seen that. Overall I see no reason to doubt her abilities here, however I can come up with more quotes if need be.

[ShadowMudkip]

Yoda seems to think that it is skill, Knowledge etc that dictates the powers of Farsight, not force power.

 

Which is what we have seen on countless occasions. This was all coming from a man who's very vision was clouded. By Sidious and the Dark Side of the force.

 

Traya here has no such veils placed over her, and she has the powers and tides of Malachors heart to aid her, her visions are clear and true, we've seen that. Overall I see no reason to doubt her abilities here, however I can come up with more quotes if need be.

 

If its skill and knowledge that allow people to forsee the future (or possible futures) then whats the point in it being called a force power? If the force has little to do with farsight, as you are implying, then the ordinary person should be able to discern the future.

 

No, what I think Yoda is doing is stating the absolute truth about the future, that it is always in motion and unable to be completely discernible. If Traya could indeed forsee THE future, and simply not a possible future, then she should have been able to avoid her death. Because Traya died, she was unable to fulfill her actual goal, to rid the galaxy of the force. So Traya "winning" by dying is actually false. If she knew she was going to be unable to fulfill her true motive because of her impending death, then she should have forseen and stopped it.

 

TL;DR Traya's force visions are still bound to the rule of a constantly moving future.

[Selenial]

If its skill and knowledge that allow people to forsee the future (or possible futures) then whats the point in it being called a force power? If the force has little to do with farsight, as you are implying, then the ordinary person should be able to discern the future.

 

No, what I think Yoda is doing is stating the absolute truth about the future, that it is always in motion and unable to be completely discernible. If Traya could indeed forsee THE future, and simply not a possible future, then she should have been able to avoid her death. Because Traya died, she was unable to fulfill her actual goal, to rid the galaxy of the force. So Traya "winning" by dying is actually false. If she knew she was going to be unable to fulfill her true motive because of her impending death, then she should have forseen and stopped it.

 

TL;DR Traya's force visions are still bound to the rule of a constantly moving future.

An amusing theory.

 

Wrong, but still amusing.

 

Firstly, if you think there are techniques in the force that don't require knowledge, more than they require power, you are a fool. By your calculations, Mother Talzin > Yoda. Surik > Windy. Quinlan Vos > Luke Skywalker.

 

Surely you get the point.

 

And you honestly could not be more wrong about Trayas character, though that I can forgive, for she is a complex one at best.

 

You misunderstand. I did not wish the Jedi dead. Defeated, perhaps. I merely wished them to see that they, and their teachings, were wrong.

 

That is what I sought to understand, how one could give up such power. Give up the force, and still live, but I see now. It is because you were afraid.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Selenial

[ShadowMudkip]

An amusing theory.

 

Wrong, but still amusing.

 

Firstly, if you think there are techniques in the force that don't require knowledge, more than they require power, you are a fool. By your calculations, Mother Talzin > Yoda. Surik > Windy. Quinlan Vos > Luke Skywalker.

 

Surely you get the point.

 

And you honestly could not be more wrong about Trayas character, though that I can forgive, for she is a complex one at best.

 

I live to amuse

[StarSquirrel]

Yoda seems to think that it is skill, Knowledge etc that dictates the powers of Farsight, not force power.

 

Which is what we have seen on countless occasions. This was all coming from a man who's very vision was clouded. By Sidious and the Dark Side of the force.

 

Traya here has no such veils placed over her, and she has the powers and tides of Malachors heart to aid her, her visions are clear and true, we've seen that. Overall I see no reason to doubt her abilities here, however I can come up with more quotes if need be.

 

So Sidious, the same one who clouded Yoda's vision (so obviously he'd know how to remain unaffected), who we all know quite well was the canon most powerful sith & one of (if not) the most knowledgeable sith about farsight among other things and a very active user of said ability (as we know from repeated statements by the man himself). That guy is somehow worse at predicting the future than Traya?

 

And for the purposes of this battle, Sidious could barely predict a single battle's outcome with any accuracy. You expect Traya who we've routinely, though you can disagree all you'd like, proven makes mistakes in her farsight is somehow going to predict every battle and avoid her own death (something no force user has ever managed) in order to win multiple engagements simultaneously?

 

Sel the evidence is constantly mounting, I recommend you find a happy medium that I and/or others can believe and stop using visions as your go-to response to any battle situation that doesn't conform to your view of how Traya's strategy would play out in her best interest.

 

I freely admit Traya has impressive powers of farsight, and she has been more accurate than many other force users. That does not make this ability a catchall, infallible, or impossible to manipulate.

 

Finally, would you seriously believe that Luke, Caedus, Sidious, Yoda, Revan etc... all lacked knowledge in this area? And that Traya was somehow much better than them all? Or perhaps have you somewhat overstated her abilities without taking into account the full picture of what farsight is?

[ShadowMudkip]

So Sidious, the same one who clouded Yoda's vision (so obviously he'd know how to remain unaffected), who we all know quite well was the canon most powerful sith & one of (if not) the most knowledgeable sith about farsight among other things and a very active user of said ability (as we know from repeated statements by the man himself). That guy is somehow worse at predicting the future than Traya?

 

And for the purposes of this battle, Sidious could barely predict a single battle's outcome with any accuracy. You expect Traya who we've routinely, though you can disagree all you'd like, proven makes mistakes in her farsight is somehow going to predict every battle and avoid her own death (something no force user has ever managed) in order to win multiple engagements simultaneously?

 

Sel the evidence is constantly mounting, I recommend you find a happy medium that I and/or others can believe and stop using visions as your go-to response to any battle situation that doesn't conform to your view of how Traya's strategy would play out in her best interest.

 

I freely admit Traya has impressive powers of farsight, and she has been more accurate than many other force users. That does not make this ability a catchall, infallible, or impossible to manipulate.

 

Finally, would you seriously believe that Luke, Caedus, Sidious, Yoda, Revan etc... all lacked knowledge in this area? And that Traya was somehow much better than them all? Or perhaps have you somewhat overstated her abilities without taking into account the full picture of what farsight is?

 

This, Sidious could not see the destruction of either of the two death stars, the collapse of his empire, Luke's birth, his ultimate demise, Vader's betrayal, the list goes on. If such a powerful Sith was unable to foresee any of those, then I doubt that Traya could be perfectly accurate with her predictions.

[Aurbere]

It's not just Farsight, you know that right?

[StarSquirrel]

It's not just Farsight, you know that right?

 

Yes, but Force visions are known to be even more deceptive and far less literal than Farsight. Take Cade Skywalker, Mara Jade, or Caedus's dreams.

 

Precognition as its own power (not in its umbrella definition) was a combat ability, not useful so much for a large-scale war tactics and strategy.

 

She can't use any of her senses to predict what G0-T0 will do, as he is a droid and beyond that doesn't need to speak when all his forces are droids so they can communicate exclusively by computer code and be understood perfectly. There is then, nothing for Traya to hear and no emotions to sense in order to predict him.

 

Am I missing something very important I should be addressing?

 

If you're speaking of Shatterpoints I was hoping someone else would address that as most of my info off the top of my head on it outside Caedus's usage is limited to Wookieepedia.

Edited April 8, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Selenial]

Yes, but Force visions are known to be even more deceptive and far less literal than Farsight. Take Cade Skywalker, Mara Jade, or Caedus's dreams.

 

Precognition as its own power (not in its umbrella definition) was a combat ability, not useful so much for a large-scale war tactics and strategy.

 

She can't use any of her senses to predict what G0-T0 will do, as he is a droid and beyond that doesn't need to speak when all his forces are droids so they can communicate exclusively by computer code and be understood perfectly. There is then, nothing for Traya to hear and no emotions to sense in order to predict him.

 

Am I missing something very important I should be addressing?

 

If you're speaking of Shatterpoints I was hoping someone else would address that as most of my info off the top of my head on it outside Caedus's usage is limited to Wookieepedia.

 

I believe Aurbere was referring to DarkSight.