Kaggath Tournament Finals - Droid Supremacy vs Dark Imperium

[Selenial]

Your going to have to provide some evidence for that, she couldn't predict any of their futures.

 

I find your explanation unlikely. Given that the book hadn't even been written yet. This also doesn't explain HK, or why she lumped HK and T3 together under the title of droids, clearly that is of some significance.

 

They are droids, they have no presence in the Force, that is why.

 

The issue there is that the ray shields protecting the droid factory protected it from any fast moving projectiles. This includes ships, and including a stealthed ship plummeting towards the factory with the intent of colliding.

 

Firstly, Never, ever, bring up real life reasons for Kotor 2 inaccuracies

If you're going to say "No, book wasn't released" I could just as easily say "Yes, it was added in because it was a line they could re-use that Traya had already said in the game. The original Traya at the core was Artris, and thus everything that was recorded in the Core was unplanned, and rushed. The droid line was added in literally as last minute as they get"

 

But yes, let's stick to in universe theories. IE, both droids were involved in Suriks hunt for Revan, and if Kreia told her that she'd be making surik's choice for her. We seem to be forgetting how much Kreia lied to get the exile to realise things on her own.

 

My theory about why she could track them, is twofold.

She makes an entire speech about a Mynock in the sand, flapping it wings, causing waves. Those waves can be traced back to the source, and force users create even larger waves.

 

She also states that even the droids are starting to have mild force attunements around the Exile, how they have started to have Force Alignments.

 

Thus, G0-T0 is one of the many cases (MANY, 100's of Junkyard droids on Raxus, the Meedi's etc) in which a droid has mild force Sensitivity.

 

Thus, trackable.

But I still agree, probably not predictable.

[Beniboybling]

Ahhh Ok, the confusion there. You said 200%-300% more (found it ) and that means 300%-400% of the original (IE, 20% more is 120% of the original) or 3-4 times it. But moving on.

 

That's a good point, but again, I was talking in a prolonged environment, and a fleet that powerful which has stealthed technology, in a Prolonged environment will not get overrun by anything less than a huge fleet, one Warren simply cannot send.

Nah you had it right the first time, I intially stated 200-300% i.e. 2 to 3, but considered the possibility of 300-400%, but the latter seems more likely.

 

Unless of course the fleet is somehow trapped, but I'll think of that.

[Selenial]

Nah you had it right the first time, I intially stated 200-300% i.e. 2 to 3, but considered the possibility of 300-400%, but the latter seems more likely.

 

Unless of course the fleet is somehow trapped, but I'll think of that.

 

The fleet being all in one place makes no sense.

 

And if it was trapped is something I have arguments for, don't you worry!

 

Oh, one more thing. When talking of Geonosis, I meant Stealthed Extinction Bombers going in squads and "dropping their loads" not ramming into a factory.

[Selenial]

Eh, Number one way around a Crystal Grav Field Trap? Interdictors.

 

Gravity well projectors were designed to simulate the gravity of a planet in a given area, and CGT's were blocked by masses of Gravity.

 

And on defending worlds like Raxus, Malachor, with debris, you won't be able to tell the difference.

[Beniboybling]

Firstly, Never, ever, bring up real life reasons for Kotor 2 inaccuracies

If you're going to say "No, book wasn't released" I could just as easily say "Yes, it was added in because it was a line they could re-use that Traya had already said in the game. The original Traya at the core was Artris, and thus everything that was recorded in the Core was unplanned, and rushed. The droid line was added in literally as last minute as they get"

 

But yes, let's stick to in universe theories. IE, both droids were involved in Suriks hunt for Revan, and if Kreia told her that she'd be making surik's choice for her. We seem to be forgetting how much Kreia lied to get the exile to realise things on her own.

 

My theory about why she could track them, is twofold.

She makes an entire speech about a Mynock in the sand, flapping it wings, causing waves. Those waves can be traced back to the source, and force users create even larger waves.

 

She also states that even the droids are starting to have mild force attunements around the Exile, how they have started to have Force Alignments.

 

Thus, G0-T0 is one of the many cases (MANY, 100's of Junkyard droids on Raxus, the Meedi's etc) in which a droid has mild force Sensitivity.

 

Thus, trackable.

But I still agree, probably not predictable.

Its called writer intentions and they should always be taken into account, if a writer didn't intend something, it didn't happen. Case in point it would be a fanon assumption to say that Bane secretly controlled Zannah's body.

 

2. Actually that's probably right, I looked at it again and Traya actually lumps Bao-Dur in that pile as well. She also makes a vague remark about T3 going on "one last journey", thought that may have been a guess I can't be sure.

 

Anyway as for the matter at hand, again we are going to need to some actual hard evidence if we are to start claiming that G0-T0 is force-sensitive or even attuned. Because that is quite the claim. I expect that Traya could predict the actions of the droids but her inability to sense the droids themselves will likely greatly hamper her abilities.

 

P.S. The junkyard 'droids', they are as I have explained technobeasts. I don't know what a "Meedi" is.

[Beniboybling]

Oh, one more thing. When talking of Geonosis, I meant Stealthed Extinction Bombers going in squads and "dropping their loads" not ramming into a factory.

Well how is that going to work? They'll either get zapped going through the shields or they're bombs will be blocked by the shields. And where on earth are you getting stealthed bombers from anyway?

[Beniboybling]

Eh, Number one way around a Crystal Grav Field Trap? Interdictors.

 

Gravity well projectors were designed to simulate the gravity of a planet in a given area, and CGT's were blocked by masses of Gravity.

 

And on defending worlds like Raxus, Malachor, with debris, you won't be able to tell the difference.

But you'd have to be aware of the existence of mechanisms of the CGT before applying such at tactic.

[Selenial]

Well how is that going to work? They'll either get zapped going through the shields or they're bombs will be blocked by the shields. And where on earth are you getting stealthed bombers from anyway?

 

Pop through the shields (slowly moving, not that hard)

 

the Extinction bombers in Malgus' fleet were Stealthed, so that's where I get them from.

 

If you mean from whereabouts, probably some orbiting Harrower.

[Aurbere]

Couldn't Traya just go for visions of some of her own forces, thus bypassing the 'inability' to see the future of droids?

[Selenial]

Couldn't Traya just go for visions of some of her own forces, thus bypassing the 'inability' to see the future of droids?

 

I totally didn't say that on the first page

 

No but seriously, this.

[Beniboybling]

Pop through the shields (slowly moving, not that hard)

 

the Extinction bombers in Malgus' fleet were Stealthed, so that's where I get them from.

 

If you mean from whereabouts, probably some orbiting Harrower.

You would think that, but the Republic gunships couldn't do it. And I doubt strafing bombers can move that slowly. Obviously this would be a major design flaw, so I doubt its possible.

 

I don't recall him having anything other than stealthed fighters.

[Beniboybling]

Couldn't Traya just go for visions of some of her own forces, thus bypassing the 'inability' to see the future of droids?

Unfortunately this won't help her track G0-T0, or assist her in predicting movements that do not directly involve the Imperium.

[Selenial]

You would think that, but the Republic gunships couldn't do it. And I doubt strafing bombers can move that slowly. Obviously this would be a major design flaw, so I doubt its possible.

 

I don't recall him having anything other than stealthed fighters.

 

Really? Any doccumented attempts of them trying?

 

I was under the impression the reasoning was that they'd simply be shot down by the defenses.

 

If not that, then the Sienar Stealth ship.

It was armed with Torpedo's, that could be replaced with Diamond Boron Missiles, which have like a 400m blast radius each.

[Aurbere]

I totally didn't say that on the first page

 

No but seriously, this.

 

You're right. You didn't say it on the first page.

[Aurbere]

Unfortunately this won't help her track G0-T0, or assist her in predicting movements that do not directly involve the Imperium.

 

She could predict where G0-T0 is going to strike through the presence of her own forces, yes?

[Beniboybling]

She could predict where G0-T0 is going to strike through the presence of her own forces, yes?

[Warren-Stride]

So lets talk about the almighty Traya.

 

Namely, her ability to 'see the future'. Why do I have that in quotes? Read on to find out.

 

Traya's Foresight Doesn't Really Help Her. At All.

 

Traya fails to predict the loss of her hand

Traya seems pretty confident going into the fight versus Sion. Calling Sion "limited" and saying that he has learned nothing. And yet, Sion takes her hand off with one blow. What does this mean? It means that Traya was confident that she would defeat Sion. If she truely does possess powers to see the future, and she did not see her hand getting cut off by Sion, she would not have second thoughts about engaging him.

 

Traya Fails to Predict Sion and Nihilius Betraying Her

Probably the most important example of all. While in the Trayus Core, Darth Traya was unable to predict the betrayal of her fellows. Ironic for a Sith named after betrayal. She was completely unprepared and quickly subdued. If she had seen such an attack coming, would she not have prepared? Ordered Sion and Nihilius eliminated by the guards? Traya's abilities can't sense betrayal.

 

Traya Fails to Predict Hanharr's Usefulness

Traya revives Hanharr, claiming that she has another use for him. On Malachor V, Hanharr is obviously meant to kill Mira. However, Mira kills Hanharr, an outcome that Traya obviously had not predicted. Traya's foresight abilities failed to predict that the special effort she made to save Hanharr would fail to achieve the objective she intended it to.

 

Traya Fails to Predict her own Death

No one has ever accurately predicted (and then avoided) their own death. Traya seemed to be oblivious to the outcome of her duel with Meetra, one that she obviously intended to win in order to achieve her ultimate goal of eliminating the Force. The inability to predict her own death is problematic.

 

Overview: Traya's inability to predict her own failures leaves her vulnerable. If she is so reliant on her future sight, that may explain why she feels so confident in schemes that ultimately fail. The failure of her foresight makes it either useless or detrimental to her war strategy.

 

Traya's Predictions are Just Plain Wrong

 

Mandalorians

Traya claims that the last Mandalorian will be killed too easily by a Jedi. Obviously, she is referring to the death of Jango Fett. However, this is flat out wrong. Millions of Mandalorians on Mandalore were alive when Jango Fett was killed. Boba Fett and others after him took up the title of Mandalore and lead the Mandalorians for many years after Jango's death.

 

Nar Shaddaa

"Where once the disposed and and lost were trapped there, now they will struggle and grow. From despair will come hope." Not sure exactly when that's supposed to happen, but during SWTOR the Evocii are being forced off the planet, Shadowtown is still underway, and things seem pretty hopeless to me. Nar Shaddaa is never a breeding ground for hope, and the only thing ever growing on that planet is Hutts' wallets.

 

Onderon

"Onderon shall remain in the Republic..." Nice try Traya, but Onderon joined the Confederacy of Independent Systems. Also, the prediction that Onderon people would "lose their customs" is false. We still see beast riders in TCW ear.

 

Telos IV

"Complacent and peaceful, it shall forget the time that Saul Karath orbited it..." Not quite. Telos IV had a civil war and the ruler brutally murdered people with his private army.

 

Overview: Although Traya's predictions aren't totally false, they are full of half-truths, vague descriptions, and no real longevity to her statements. Most of the time they turn out to be wrong. She is unreiable when predicting the future, especially of political or militaristic maneuverings.

 

 

 

So let's look at Traya's foresight a bit more objectively. Instead of "lol she can predict everything /autowin" I suggest we see her ability for what it really is: an unreliable questimate that is rarely correct. "Always in motion the future is."

 

Traya's abilities have failed to predict her loses. Inaccurately predicted the future of worlds, peoples, and governments. Utilized half-truths while being oblivious to the full picture. And led Traya to be overconfident.

 

If Traya uses this power, it'll do her more harm than good. She may have a sense that something will happen, but if she counts on it happening (or not happening), as she seems to do, she will gain false confidence that will ultimately make her lose more battles than she wins.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Warren-Stride

[ShadowMudkip]

So lets talk about the almighty Traya.

 

Namely, her ability to 'see the future'. Why do I have that in quotes? Read on to find out.

 

Traya's Foresight Doesn't Really Help Her. At All.

 

Traya fails to predict the loss of her hand

Traya seems pretty confident going into the fight versus Sion. Calling Sion "limited" and saying that he has learned nothing. And yet, Sion takes her hand off with one blow. What does this mean? It means that Traya was confident that she would defeat Sion. If she truely does possess powers to see the future, and she did not see her hand getting cut off by Sion, she would not have second thoughts about engaging him.

 

Traya Fails to Predict Sion and Nihilius Betraying Her

Probably the most important example of all. While in the Trayus Core, Darth Traya was unable to predict the betrayal of her fellows. Ironic for a Sith named after betrayal. She was completely unprepared and quickly subdued. If she had seen such an attack coming, would she not have prepared? Ordered Sion and Nihilius eliminated by the guards? Traya's abilities can't sense betrayal.

 

Traya Fails to Predict Hanharr's Usefulness

Traya revives Hanharr, claiming that she has another use for him. On Malachor V, Hanharr is obviously meant to kill Mira. However, Mira kills Hanharr, an outcome that Traya obviously had not predicted. Traya's foresight abilities failed to predict that the special effort she made to save Hanharr would fail to achieve the objective she intended it to.

 

Traya Fails to Predict her own Death

No one has ever accurately predicted (and then avoided) their own death. Traya seemed to be oblivious to the outcome of her duel with Meetra, one that she obviously intended to win in order to achieve her ultimate goal of eliminating the Force. The inability to predict her own death is problematic.

 

Overview: Traya's inability to predict her own failures leaves her vulnerable. If she is so reliant on her future sight, that may explain why she feels so confident in schemes that ultimately fail. The failure of her foresight makes it either useless or detrimental to her war strategy.

 

Traya's Predictions are Just Plain Wrong

 

Mandalorians

Traya claims that the last Mandalorian will be killed too easily by a Jedi. Obviously, she is referring to the death of Jango Fett. However, this is flat out wrong. Millions of Mandalorians on Mandalore were alive when Jango Fett was killed. Boba Fett and others after him took up the title of Mandalore and lead the Mandalorians for many years after Jango's death.

 

Nar Shaddaa

"Where once the disposed and and lost were trapped there, now they will struggle and grow. From despair will come hope." Not sure exactly when that's supposed to happen, but during SWTOR the Evocii are being forced off the planet, Shadowtown is still underway, and things seem pretty hopeless to me. Nar Shaddaa is never a breeding ground for hope, and the only thing ever growing on that planet is Hutts' wallets.

 

Onderon

"Onderon shall remain in the Republic..." Nice try Traya, but Onderon joined the Confederacy of Independent Systems. Also, the prediction that Onderon people would "lose their customs" is false. We still see beast riders in TCW ear.

 

Telos IV

"Complacent and peaceful, it shall forget the time that Saul Karath orbited it..." Not quite. Telos IV had a civil war and the ruler brutally murdered people with his private army.

 

Overview: Although Traya's predictions aren't totally false, they are full of half-truths, vague descriptions, and no real longevity to her statements. Most of the time they turn out to be wrong. She is unreiable when predicting the future, especially of political or militaristic maneuverings.

 

 

 

So let's look at Traya's foresight a bit more objectively. Instead of "lol she can predict everything /autowin" I suggest we see her ability for what it really is: an unreliable questimate that is rarely correct. "Always in motion the future is."

 

Traya's abilities have failed to predict her loses. Inaccurately predicted the future of worlds, peoples, and governments. Utilized half-truths while being oblivious to the full picture. And led Traya to be overconfident.

 

If Traya uses this power, it'll do her more harm than good. She may have a sense that something will happen, but if she counts on it happening (or not happening), as she seems to do, she will gain false confidence that will ultimately make her lose more battles than she wins.

 

I've always viewed foresight, in Star Wars, as multiple choice question. The vision grants a likely outcome, but not the absolute future.

[Beniboybling]

Traya fails to predict the loss of her hand

Kreia was recovering from being cut off from the Force which would have severely dampened her abilities in foresight.

Traya Fails to Predict her own Death

No one has ever accurately predicted (and then avoided) their own death. Traya seemed to be oblivious to the outcome of her duel with Meetra, one that she obviously intended to win in order to achieve her ultimate goal of eliminating the Force. The inability to predict her own death is problematic.

I don't believe that is what Kreia intended at all, the game seems to more strongly indicate she had abandoned that cause of action and it was instead a trick to lure the Exile to Malachor for her final test i.e. Traya wanted her to win.

 

In regards to the overall argument, I think we have to remember that:

 

1. Traya's predictions may not are are never specified to be long into the future, but in most cases are likely the immediate future, and in such a sense many if not all ring true or are at least close to the truth.

 

2. We cannot expect the rest of the EU to respect Kreia's predictions, that said I expect Leland Chee would explain that continuity conflict with the words "always in motion is the future" so you certainly have a point there.

 

Altogether I don't think this is argument for totally discrediting Traya's abilities in foresight.

[Warren-Stride]

In regards to the overall argument, I think we have to remember that:

 

1. Traya's predictions may not are are never specified to be long into the future, but in most cases are likely the immediate future, and in such a sense many if not all ring true or are at least close to the truth.

 

2. We cannot expect the rest of the EU to respect Kreia's predictions, that said I expect Leland Chee would explain that continuity conflict with the words "always in motion is the future" so you certainly have a point there.

 

Altogether I don't think this is argument for totally discrediting Traya's abilities in foresight.

 

1. The thing is, Traya seems fine with predicting the future a couple years down the road, but fails to predict the far future or the near future. So sure, Traya might be able to predict who wins the war. But not how.

 

2. Selenial is the one who said that we can't let out-of-cannon real-life stuff mess with the facts of cannon.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Warren-Stride

[Selenial]

I wish you hadn't done this.

 

So lets talk about the almighty Traya.

 

Namely, her ability to 'see the future'. Why do I have that in quotes? Read on to find out.

 

Traya's Foresight Doesn't Really Help Her. At All.

 

Traya fails to predict the loss of her hand

Traya seems pretty confident going into the fight versus Sion. Calling Sion "limited" and saying that he has learned nothing. And yet, Sion takes her hand off with one blow. What does this mean? It means that Traya was confident that she would defeat Sion. If she truely does possess powers to see the future, and she did not see her hand getting cut off by Sion, she would not have second thoughts about engaging him.

She was cut off from the force. This is like saying someone can't walk because they have a leg in a cast. It took time to heal.

Traya Fails to Predict Sion and Nihilius Betraying Her

Probably the most important example of all. While in the Trayus Core, Darth Traya was unable to predict the betrayal of her fellows. Ironic for a Sith named after betrayal. She was completely unprepared and quickly subdued. If she had seen such an attack coming, would she not have prepared? Ordered Sion and Nihilius eliminated by the guards? Traya's abilities can't sense betrayal.

Why do you say she didn't predict it? Her entire speech was about how there are things you cannot defend against

Traya Fails to Predict Hanharr's Usefulness

Traya revives Hanharr, claiming that she has another use for him. On Malachor V, Hanharr is obviously meant to kill Mira. However, Mira kills Hanharr, an outcome that Traya obviously had not predicted. Traya's foresight abilities failed to predict that the special effort she made to save Hanharr would fail to achieve the objective she intended it to.

Hanharr was Mira's final test, Trayas attempt to show get that she could no longer live a life of Apathy, she had to end Hanharr.

Traya Fails to Predict her own Death

No one has ever accurately predicted (and then avoided) their own death. Traya seemed to be oblivious to the outcome of her duel with Meetra, one that she obviously intended to win in order to achieve her ultimate goal of eliminating the Force. The inability to predict her own death is problematic.

Why do you say that? She set everything up as if she knew she would not walk away from the duel. Besides, again, what would she do if she knew she'd die? Nothing. She'd know there's no way for her to live, she decided to make it a test for the Exile, we know this.

Overview: Traya's inability to predict her own failures leaves her vulnerable. If she is so reliant on her future sight, that may explain why she feels so confident in schemes that ultimately fail. The failure of her foresight makes it either useless or detrimental to her war strategy.

The amount this character is misunderstood is beyond me. Traya didn't fail at anything, everything happened as she wished. She won.

She annihilated the sith, set up a more neutral incarnation of the Jedi, (accepting of love, war, etc) and she ended herself, the last great threat to the galaxy.

She didn't fail, lose, etc.

Traya's Predictions are Just Plain Wrong

 

Mandalorians

Traya claims that the last Mandalorian will be killed too easily by a Jedi. Obviously, she is referring to the death of Jango Fett. However, this is flat out wrong. Millions of Mandalorians on Mandalore were alive when Jango Fett was killed. Boba Fett and others after him took up the title of Mandalore and lead the Mandalorians for many years after Jango's death.

What?

"Until all that is left is the shell of their armor, on the shell of a man, too easily slain by Jedi"

This is a controversial line as it is, we don't know she means Jango. Even if she does, she's right. After Jangl the mandalorians were reborn and remade, they were nothing like the Neocrusaders.

Nar Shaddaa

"Where once the disposed and and lost were trapped there, now they will struggle and grow. From despair will come hope." Not sure exactly when that's supposed to happen, but during SWTOR the Evocii are being forced off the planet, Shadowtown is still underway, and things seem pretty hopeless to me. Nar Shaddaa is never a breeding ground for hope, and the only thing ever growing on that planet is Hutts' wallets.

The smugglers moon was nothing like when the Exile was there, 1,000's of war heroes don't live in cargo containers during SWTOR. Improvement? I'd say so.

 

She also, IIRC calls it the heart, IE, buried deep.

Onderon

"Onderon shall remain in the Republic..." Nice try Traya, but Onderon joined the Confederacy of Independent Systems. Also, the prediction that Onderon people would "lose their customs" is false. We still see beast riders in TCW ear.

That was 4,000 years later. You wanted her to give a story lasting about 4 hours of what Onderon will do? No. She was obviously referring to the conflict that currently ravaged the world.

Telos IV

"Complacent and peaceful, it shall forget the time that Saul Karath orbited it..." Not quite. Telos IV had a civil war and the ruler brutally murdered people with his private army.

pretty much what I said about Onderon.

Overview: Although Traya's predictions aren't totally false, they are full of half-truths, vague descriptions, and no real longevity to her statements. Most of the time they turn out to be wrong. She is unreiable when predicting the future, especially of political or militaristic maneuverings.

 

IMO, these are all stretched out to poke holes in them, and if interpreted in the way intended none f these are wrong.

 

You also decide to forget he for seeing the rise of the empire. The future of the republic. The Cold War etc.

 

So let's look at Traya's foresight a bit more objectively. Instead of "lol she can predict everything /autowin" I suggest we see her ability for what it really is: an unreliable questimate that is rarely correct. "Always in motion the future is."

Eheh.

Traya's abilities have failed to predict her loses. Inaccurately predicted the future of worlds, peoples, and governments. Utilized half-truths while being oblivious to the full picture. And led Traya to be overconfident.

"That's your opinion manneyus"

And in the words of Traya "You are wrong"

If Traya uses this power, it'll do her more harm than good. She may have a sense that something will happen, but if she counts on it happening (or not happening), as she seems to do, she will gain false confidence that will ultimately make her lose more battles than she wins.

You tried hard, and there are one or two points in here I've considered myself, but I struggle to believe that you believe half of what you wrote there, if you do really think that, I'll try get some quotes, but I'm packing for Greece ATM.

 

Of course, Beni could do it for me

[Selenial]

1. The thing is, Traya seems fine with predicting the future a couple years down the road, but fails to predict the far future or the near future. So sure, Traya might be able to predict who wins the war. But not how.

 

2. Selenial is the one who said that we can't let out-of-cannon real-life stuff mess with the facts of cannon.

 

1- That makes no sense, near future is easier than distant.

Besides, she predicted a lot of things in the near future, no one manipulates that many people without knowing how they'll react.

 

2- I didn't quite say that. I said he can't expect to win an argument using an IRL reason, when an IRL reason is the reason he loses that argument.... If that makes any sense

[Warren-Stride]

She annihilated the sith, set up a more neutral incarnation of the Jedi, (accepting of love, war, etc) and she ended herself, the last great threat to the galaxy.

 

Then Traya will lose this Kaggath on purpose. To dispose of the Sith and kill off herself.

 

What I'm saying is, if we're going to go with the opinion that Traya knows all, sees all, and controls all, there's no point in having this debate. If that is the case, the only thing we have to debate about is what Traya wants to happen. Because apparently, whatever she wants to happen will.

 

So, let's get this Kaggath over with and debate the only valid argument in the entire discussion: which side does Traya want to win? Because that's the side that's going to win.

[Selenial]

Then Traya will lose this Kaggath on purpose. To dispose of the Sith and kill off herself.

 

What I'm saying is, if we're going to go with the opinion that Traya knows all, sees all, and controls all, there's no point in having this debate. If that is the case, the only thing we have to debate about is what Traya wants to happen. Because apparently, whatever she wants to happen will.

 

So, let's get this Kaggath over with and debate the only valid argument in the entire discussion: which side does Traya want to win? Because that's the side that's going to win.

 

Don't yell at me because I chose the only competent sith available

That's her strength. She sees. She manipulates.

She's not the most powerful here, combat wise, but she's good.

 

But she's not invincible, like she's said, there are things you simply cannot defend against, if G0-T0 the accountant droid is as fantabulous as you and Canino have been making me fear he is, then you have a fighting chance.

 

But yeh, Beni said all leaders are dedicated to their cause.

 

Even if she wasn't, she hates droids, she wouldn't let G0-T0 win.

[Beniboybling]

1. The thing is, Traya seems fine with predicting the future a couple years down the road, but fails to predict the far future or the near future. So sure, Traya might be able to predict who wins the war. But not how.

 

2. Selenial is the one who said that we can't let out-of-cannon real-life stuff mess with the facts of cannon.

1. Foresight tends to forewarn the user of imminent and incoming threats, and many Jedi such as even Ashoka Tano have been able to do this. So predicting which planet G0-T0 will attack with a level of accuracy is pretty tame.

 

2. And I'm the one who corrected her by saying authorial intentions should always be taken into account, i.e. the writers were attempting to demonstrate Traya's profound abilities in foresight, not some ironic infallibility. I also told her we shouldn't confuse "the facts of canon" with our own personal fanon.

What I'm saying is, if we're going to go with the opinion that Traya knows all, sees all, and controls all, there's no point in having this debate. If that is the case, the only thing we have to debate about is what Traya wants to happen. Because apparently, whatever she wants to happen will.

 

So, let's get this Kaggath over with and debate the only valid argument in the entire discussion: which side does Traya want to win? Because that's the side that's going to win.

Bad hyperbole is bad.