Suggestion: Keep Damage Overcharge, but cap its total bonus damage to ~3000

[Nemarus]

The issue with Damage Overcharge isn't its existence -- it's that it has no limits except duration. I'm guessing the devs gave it the same 45 second duration as the rest of the power-ups for consistency. The problem is that, unlike the rest of the power-ups, the impact of Damage Overcharge within that 45 second duration is unbounded.

 

If I get Damage Overcharge and am either already near a cluster of fighters or able to quickly get near one, I can rack up over 10 kills and 10's of thousands of damage in a few seconds. I basically punish the enemy for organized team play and flying together.

 

I propose that in addition to the 45 second duration, Damage Overcharge has a cap on total bonus damage it can give you. Once that cap is hit, the buff expires, even if it had duration left.

 

For example, let's say the cap is 3000 bonus damage. That'll be enough to let my Scout destroy a heavily shielded and armored Bomber ... but after that, DO would be gone. Alternatively, I could use that 3000 bonus damage to kill ~2 Gunships or Strikes, or 3-4 Scouts. The choice of how I use that extra damage is up to me, but either way, I'm prevented from jumping into a group of enemy fighters and going all

.

 

The other option is to massively reduce the duration of Damage Overcharge, but I think that would punish less mobile classes ... they'd get DO only to have it expire before they could get in range of a target. That's the nice thing about the damage cap approach -- the duration of the buff is how long you have to choose your target(s). But the damage cap is what actually limits how many kills you get because of DO.

 

Whether 3000 is the right amount or not, I don't know. That's something for the devs to tune based on how powerful they want Damage Overcharge to be.

[Altheran]

I'd be okay with that.

 

Or alternatively, reduce the amplitude of the damage buff to the level of a crit, instead of twice a crit.

[Verain]

There's a whole thread about crying about this powerup. Your auxillary nerf idea doesn't need a whole different one.

 

 

Also it's fine and good for the game.

[Itkovian]

Personally I'd just reduce the magnitude of damage overcharge. Make it give a 15-20% boost, not the ungodly amount it does now. It'd still be a ood bonus, but not the game changer it currently is, and more in line with the other boosts.

 

This would also have the advantage of not requiring any special changes, a reduction in damage boost is likely a simple change.

 

Mind you, any nerf to DO would be welcome.

[SammyGStatus]

There's a whole thread about crying about this powerup. Your auxillary nerf idea doesn't need a whole different one.

 

 

Also it's fine and good for the game.

 

^ This. It's fine - it's just a matter of learning to play the mechanics. If someone can wreck you with it, DONT LET THEM GET IT! If you can wreck them with DO, GET IT! There's no need to nerf this ability, since 1 DO won't last the whole round and (shouldn't) disrupt the rest of the match unless the same team is consistently getting it. In that case, you just need better teammates (good luck with that one)

[Armonddd]

There's a whole thread about crying about this powerup. Your auxillary nerf idea doesn't need a whole different one.

 

 

Also it's fine and good for the game.

 

I'm sorry not everyone conforms to your idea of discussion.

[RatPoison]

The buff from damage overcharge isn't 45 seconds... it's not even close. I've never timed it, but at the very best it is 30 seconds, and more likely even less.

 

All this whining about the power up is silly at best. Heaven forbid people need to pay attention to what's going on in a match.

 

If an opponent grabs the overcharge... I'm going to check to see who the enemies around me are, and if that pilot is one of them, I'm going to pursue them... because lets face it, if you don't want to be the prey you damn sure better be the predator. If the pilot that got the overcharge is good or lets just say better than you, they'll survive, but the hope is that you've minimized the damage they've caused.

 

Why is adding another element to the game bad? And hell, if a bad pilot gets it, it's not as if you're going to see 10 kills come in an instant unless the other team is equally bad. ... So what does this mean?... what folks are really complaining about are bad pilots versus good pilots. Been there, done that.

[Nemarus]

^ This. It's fine - it's just a matter of learning to play the mechanics. If someone can wreck you with it, DONT LET THEM GET IT! If you can wreck them with DO, GET IT! There's no need to nerf this ability, since 1 DO won't last the whole round and (shouldn't) disrupt the rest of the match unless the same team is consistently getting it. In that case, you just need better teammates (good luck with that one)

 

If you think I'm being victimized by DO, let me show you something. 1230k damage and 30 kills in my Blackbolt. I'm good ... but not that good. Most of that is from me getting DO repeatedly and chain-killing through enemy formations.

 

By far, I get DO the most of anyone on our server and I absolutely destroy the opposition with it. I don't even hunt for the thing, but on the way to enemies, I fly routes that take me past DO spawns, I keep an eye out for that red glow, and I make sure to burn for it the moment I see it.

 

If DO remains unchanged, I'll be happy to continue to abuse it to get obscene numbers of kills and damage totals. If I don't, someone else will. But I'm not just looking out for my own fun here. I'm looking out for the overall well-being of GSF, and right now there is a significant portion of the population (including myself and many other ace pilots whom I respect) who feel DO is overpowered.

 

But unlike some, I'm not just shouting, "It should be removed!" Nor am I saying "It's fine, leave it the way it is!" Instead, I'm proposing a compromise tweak to DO--one that will keep its unique flavor, but which will cap its ability to magnify one pilot's skill (and luck!) to the point where the rest of the match is irrelevant.

 

For most pilots, the damage cap I'm proposing wouldn't even make any difference. The duration of DO would expire before they reach the damage cap. But for some like me, who can turn a single DO into 5-10 kills and 15-30k damage, it would limit that skill-magnifiying factor to the point where I can't single handedly topple a team just because I got a lucky DO or two.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Nemarus

[SammyGStatus]

If you think I'm being victimized by DO, let me show you something. 1230k damage and 30 kills in my Blackbolt. I'm good ... but not that good. Most of that is from me getting DO repeatedly and chain-killing through enemy formations.

 

By far, I get DO the most of anyone on our server and I absolutely destroy the opposition with it. I don't even hunt for the thing, but on the way to enemies, I fly routes that take me past DO spawns, I keep an eye out for that red glow, and I make sure to burn for it the moment I see it.

 

If DO remains unchanged, I'll be happy to continue to abuse it to get obscene numbers of kills and damage totals. If I don't, someone else will. But I'm not just looking out for my own fun here. I'm looking out for the overall well-being of GSF, and right now there is a significant portion of the population (including myself and many other ace pilots whom I respect) who feel DO is overpowered.

 

But unlike some, I'm not just shouting, "It should be removed!" Nor am I saying "It's fine, leave it the way it is!" Instead, I'm proposing a compromise tweak to DO--one that will keep its unique flavor, but which will cap its ability to magnify one pilot's skill (and luck!) to the point where the rest of the match is irrelevant.

 

For most pilots, the damage cap I'm proposing wouldn't even make any difference. The duration of DO would expire before they reach the damage cap. But for some like me, who can turn a single DO into 5-10 kills and 15-30k damage, it would limit that skill-magnifiying factor to the point where I can't single handedly topple a team just because I got a lucky DO or two.

 

I do the same thing mang. Not our fault we're playing the game properly. My argument to the point remains. You want to neutralize the threat? Capture it first. They don't want to get it? They die. Easy. It's not game breaking because you get notified of who has DO. Have everyone on your team kill the dude who has it. Coordination and tactics < Abilities, just like how noob ships can destroy competition simply by knowing how to GSF better

[Nemarus]

I do the same thing mang. Not our fault we're playing the game properly. My argument to the point remains. You want to neutralize the threat? Capture it first. They don't want to get it? They die. Easy. It's not game breaking because you get notified of who has DO. Have everyone on your team kill the dude who has it. Coordination and tactics < Abilities, just like how noob ships can destroy competition simply by knowing how to GSF better

 

I think the fundamental debate here is that "playing the game properly" should be about dogfighting, not racing for the triple damage red ball of death.

 

Again, I'm not saying it should be removed. I'm just saying the impact on the match of each DO orb should be capped.

 

You and I would still get DO just as much as we do now. And it would still let us reach very high kill and damage counts ... but it wouldn't be as obscene as it is right now.

 

And all that being said, looking at the original 2.6 patch notes, BioWare said DO was supposed to double your damage, whereas it is clearly at least tripling it (350 gets turned into 1000+, instead of 700). So perhaps it's bugged.

[SammyGStatus]

I think the fundamental debate here is that "playing the game properly" should be about dogfighting, not racing for the triple damage red ball of death..

 

The purpose of GSF was about flying ships in space and killing, not dog fighting. TDM is all about kills, hence the fight for Frieza's Namekian Planet Destruction blast. I pop a max charge slug for 1600. Double is 3200. Give me a crit, and it's game over, but considering 1 crit kills a scout, 2 crits for GF, and 2 hits for another gunship, it doesn't make THAT much of a difference, since if I'm targetting you, you're most likely going to die

Edited March 19, 2014 by SammyGStatus

[Armonddd]

I do the same thing mang. Not our fault we're playing the game properly.

 

No, but when the game breaks because we're playing it properly, it's on BioWare to fix things. Same as when gunships were winning TDM from the safety of the capital ship turrets -- BioWare fixed it. Same as the problems that change has introduced -- it's on BioWare to fix them. And at the same time, it's totally reasonable -- arguably a duty -- for players to offer feedback and propose changes.

 

My argument to the point remains. You want to neutralize the threat? Capture it first. They don't want to get it? They die. Easy. It's not game breaking because you get notified of who has DO. Have everyone on your team kill the dude who has it.

 

Do you hear yourself? The definition of power creep is "do this thing better than they're doing it". That's literally what you're suggesting.

 

Further, "it's not game breaking because you get notified of who has DO" isn't a logical conclusion. You skipped a few steps -- how is one player tearing through the opposition balanced by the opposition being warned to prepare their anuses?

 

You've also suggested responding to the player who has DO -- against a sufficiently skilled player, you simply can't, because he's already gotten a massive number of kills and turned the battle in his favor. Even if you manage to kill him, you've already started losing.

 

Until matchmaking starts actually working, things need to be balanced to account for new players flying against veterans, because that's a very common situation that absolutely impacts the fun people have while playing.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Armonddd

[SammyGStatus]

No, but when the game breaks because we're playing it properly, it's on BioWare to fix things. Same as when gunships were winning TDM from the safety of the capital ship turrets -- BioWare fixed it. Same as the problems that change has introduced -- it's on BioWare to fix them. And at the same time, it's totally reasonable -- arguably a duty -- for players to offer feedback and propose changes.

 

 

 

Do you hear yourself? The definition of power creep is "do this thing better than they're doing it". That's literally what you're suggesting.

 

You've also suggested responding to the player who has DO -- against a sufficiently skilled player, you simply can't, because he's already gotten a massive number of kills and turned the battle in his favor. Even if you manage to kill him, you've already started losing.

 

Until matchmaking starts actually working, things need to be balanced to account for new players flying against veterans, because that's a very common situation that absolutely impacts the fun people have while playing.

 

I am saying do what they're doing better. USE COMMUNICATION TECHNIQUES!!!!

 

I had a conversation with a professor one time about laws and policies, and he said "Just because a law doesn't work as intended isn't grounds to add additional laws. Solving the problem at the root is often the best answer". This makes sense in computing and coding too (which are both logic based). Therefore, the underlying issue is the matchmaking, not the damage overcharge. Get a match of 12 aces v 12 aces, and the battle will be much different.

[Armonddd]

I had a conversation with a professor one time about laws and policies, and he said "Just because a law doesn't work as intended isn't grounds to add additional laws. Solving the problem at the root is often the best answer". This makes sense in computing and coding too (which are both logic based). Therefore, the underlying issue is the matchmaking, not the damage overcharge. Get a match of 12 aces v 12 aces, and the battle will be much different.

 

Your professor was an idealist. When there's literally hundreds of people arguing about how to write laws and denying their various side interests/bribes, it's pretty damn hard to get things changed effectively. Likewise when fixing the root cause of a problem is an expensive and complicated endeavor for a side project of a F2P game, it's not practical to expect things to be done perfectly.

 

(That's not to say idealism is bad -- identifying the root problem and suggesting the ideal solution is important as well -- but it needs to be grounded in realism.)

 

Even with matchmaking, I'm not convinced DO wouldn't be overpowered. The patch notes said it was +100% damage; it feels closer to +200% or +300%.

[SammyGStatus]

Your professor was an idealist. When there's literally hundreds of people arguing about how to write laws and denying their various side interests/bribes, it's pretty damn hard to get things changed effectively. Likewise when fixing the root cause of a problem is an expensive and complicated endeavor for a side project of a F2P game, it's not practical to expect things to be done perfectly.

 

(That's not to say idealism is bad -- identifying the root problem and suggesting the ideal solution is important as well -- but it needs to be grounded in realism.)

 

Even with matchmaking, I'm not convinced DO wouldn't be overpowered. The patch notes said it was +100% damage; it feels closer to +200% or +300%.

 

Then they need to double check the math and make sure the statistics are being tabulated properl then. It really doesn't feel like a game breaking mechanic though because I can wreck with DO on any ship, any upgrades. That way new players can compete a little bit (although it's DEFINITELY NOT being used by them)

[Zharik]

How about instead of making the DO multiplicative it adds a specific amount per hit... say 100-200 (number negotiable). This would add very little to BLCs but turn rapid fire lasers into god mode (which users of those weapons should get some love).

[RatPoison]

Sammy, I think you're in an uphill battle against people who would rather dig their heels in and shake their head no regardless of the response.

 

You have it right though, the issue isn't DO... it's the pilots. Apparently some people have gotten butt-hurt by a person who outflew them by either planning ahead or taking them by surprise.

 

Damage overcharge is not god and it's not any more game breaking than bombers and gunship topics. There are numerous tactics to deal with the power up, and the apprehension, the reluctance to apply better sense and piloting to dealing with it is the only problem here.

 

Folks want it to be all about dogfighting, but GSF has simply not been all about dogfighting since day one. The abundance of threads on gunships being overpowered and complaining how bombers killed dogfighting in domination is evidence that the developers intent was to never make GSF a one style, tunnel vision, myopic mini-game.

 

Folks need to get over it and learn to adapt... and if they can't they need to move along with the hopes that if their opinion is the majority that the developers will reconsider what they had stated as the intent of the "damage overcharge" power-up (to make an item powerful enough that people would actually break off from the action to seek and acquire said power up).

[Armonddd]

You have it right though, the issue isn't DO... it's the pilots. Apparently some people have gotten butt-hurt by a person who outflew them by either planning ahead or taking them by surprise.

 

it's like you're not reading the thread or looking at the names of the posters

[RatPoison]

Nope, I've read everything just fine between the two threads complaining over damage overcharge.

 

If you feel otherwise, you are free to explain it.

 

To repeat, dealing with damage overcharge is a matter of pilot and tactics. That is my opinion and the arguments and opinions being stated otherwise are virtually no different than those made against bombers and gunships. So if people can type "L2P" and joke that the complainers of bombers and gunships are former battle scouts who are torn up over the situation, then why not on this. Unlike different tiers of ships and upgrades... the power ups are out there for any pilot willing to look, and handling a pilot with one buff or another is no different than flying an non-upgraded ship versus one that is... ... an issue of skill.

 

You won't always succeed, but you can certainly complicate a person's life and lessen the damage they cause in a number of ways.

 

To give an example, when I snag a damage overcharge... I don't chase after pilots and try to kill those trying to evade or target me, I go for those that are oblivious, and chasing teammates because they'll be the quickest to kill and the ones likely to react too slowly to the situation. And if they do happen to survive and switch targets to me, I fly on to the next unsuspecting potential victim. I do this because circling around and trying to line up shots on other people chasing me is a waste of the precious time the power-up is active. This is my experience, and a part of the basis for my opinion and also why I do and suggest that when an enemy collects the overcharge, you rotate through targets to discern their position and either engage, or get away.

 

Simple tactics based on simply paying attention.

[Altheran]

Nope, I've read everything just fine between the two threads complaining over damage overcharge.

 

If you feel otherwise, you are free to explain it.

 

To repeat, dealing with damage overcharge is a matter of pilot and tactics. That is my opinion and the arguments and opinions being stated otherwise are virtually no different than those made against bombers and gunships. So if people can type "L2P" and joke that the complainers of bombers and gunships are former battle scouts who are torn up over the situation, then why not on this. Unlike different tiers of ships and upgrades... the power ups are out there for any pilot willing to look, and handling a pilot with one buff or another is no different than flying an non-upgraded ship versus one that is... ... an issue of skill.

 

You won't always succeed, but you can certainly complicate a person's life and lessen the damage they cause in a number of ways.

 

To give an example, when I snag a damage overcharge... I don't chase after pilots and try to kill those trying to evade or target me, I go for those that are oblivious, and chasing teammates because they'll be the quickest to kill and the ones likely to react too slowly to the situation. And if they do happen to survive and switch targets to me, I fly on to the next unsuspecting potential victim. I do this because circling around and trying to line up shots on other people chasing me is a waste of the precious time the power-up is active. This is my experience, and a part of the basis for my opinion and also why I do and suggest that when an enemy collects the overcharge, you rotate through targets to discern their position and either engage, or get away.

 

Simple tactics based on simply paying attention.

So you suggest that the entire team should give up on the main objective (killing people) and turn themselves into flying targets waiting to be taken down by any of your mates or yourself ?

 

You're suggesting them to throw the towel.

 

The solution would be to take you down. But when you have this buff you can obliterate those trying to taking you down. Whatever they do, you win in a way or another.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Altheran

[Itkovian]

Damage overcharge is not god and it's not any more game breaking than bombers and gunship topics. There are numerous tactics to deal with the power up, and the apprehension, the reluctance to apply better sense and piloting to dealing with it is the only problem here.

 

It is certainly game changing... and the point many - including myself of course - are trying to make is that it changes TDM in ways that are detrimental to most player's enjoyment of the game.

 

In this case, DO is so powerful that you actually benefit your team more by ignoring the fighting and focusing on grabbing the red ball than actually bothering to fight your enemies direclty. You can grab it, kill a few distracted players in seconds, then zoom out of the fight and hunt the red ball again. And the best way to stop the enemy from winning by using this tactic is to chase the DO power up yourself and deny it to the enemy.

 

That's the reality of it, and the ultimate outcome is TDM devolving into a game of chase-the-red-ball, rather than the intense starfighter mosh pit it obviously was meant to be.

 

Now if you think this is all fine and dandy, good for you. Clearly, however, many people do not agree, and so we feel it is important to make some noise about this to bring it to the dev's attention. It's up to the devs to decide what - if anything - needs to be done about it.

 

Personally I don't like DO as it is, as it turns TDM from an awesome intense starfighter combat game mode to a contest of who has the most zippy starship and the best find-the-power-up parkour.

[SammyGStatus]

Now if you think this is all fine and dandy, good for you. Clearly, however, many people do not agree, and so we feel it is important to make some noise about this to bring it to the dev's attention. It's up to the devs to decide what - if anything - needs to be done about it..

 

Many people don't agree that skilled players with tactical abilities, available to everybody, should have this. I still don't see a problem with killing the guy BEFORE he gets it, or focusing on him from a distance. Coordination can overcome this. Enough said

[Itkovian]

Many people don't agree that skilled players with tactical abilities, available to everybody, should have this. I still don't see a problem with killing the guy BEFORE he gets it, or focusing on him from a distance. Coordination can overcome this. Enough said

 

Because you usually don't have the option to kill the guy before he gets it, unless you're specifically hunting that one guy (won't help if everybody does it), or you're stalking the power ups, waiting for him to approach and tag him (assuming you CAN actually kill him before he grabs it and gets away).

 

As for focusing the guy with the red ball, that is an option... but for most starship roles, that involves actually getting in range of his weapons, which usually means handing him a few kills before you take him out.

 

Either way, still makes DO a game changer around which everyone must adapt their game style. If you like what it imposes on you, then yay for you. But not everyone does, and we're allowed to speak up when we find something less enjoyable because of certain design decisions.

 

Personally I find there's been some nice suggestions, though if DO _IS_ bugged, then that should be fixed first before seeing any other changes.

[RatPoison]

So you suggest that the entire team should give up on the main objective (killing people) and turn themselves into flying targets waiting to be taken down by any of your mates or yourself ?

 

You're suggesting them to throw the towel.

 

The solution would be to take you down. But when you have this buff you can obliterate those trying to taking you down. Whatever they do, you win in a way or another.

 

So killing a problem is killing people... so how do you correlate that you're giving up on the main objective?

 

How is killing an issue throwing in the towel?

 

So while you admit the solution is to kill me (or at least detour me)... you have already jumped to the assumption that first, you are already not as good a pilot as me, and/or unable to keep me off your six? I can't help you there since you are arguing my point for me that it isn't the damage overcharge that's the issue, it's the pilots both using and flying against it.

 

So... since you've concluded you can't fly evasively, retreat, or pursue me... what was your point again?

 

And do note, I'm not concluding that I'm better than you, it's just that you've already inferred in your statements that you aren't capable.

 

It is certainly game changing... and the point many - including myself of course - are trying to make is that it changes TDM in ways that are detrimental to most player's enjoyment of the game.

 

...

 

Game changing? Perhaps in a match that is close it is game changing... but how many of those do we honestly get in a day and age we see constant complaints over matchmaking?

 

But, never mind that, lets go with it... Yes, Damage Overcharge is game changing for the instant that it is on the field and in the hands of a capable pilot.

 

Now what's your point?

 

That a person who seeks the ball benefits their team more? Oh wait, there is the element of team isn't there. The pilot that can break from the fight to seek the power-up is likely only able to do so because their team is holding their own or overwhelming the competition already. This goes back to the whole notion of how many matches are honestly decisively decided by damage overcharge. And while we're on this bend, is picking up a damage overcharge and winning by a couple of kills game breaking? Lets say the match is decisively not in your favor and so you pick up multiple overcharges over the course and turn the tide for your team... is that really game breaking? Or more or less the inability of the other team and the capable pilots not recognizing the situation and adjusting their tactics.

 

I get it, folks don't want to take advantage of power-ups. They don't want to have to deal and respond to situations with a number of tactics...

 

If that's what everybody wants, then we should just nix all ship types from the game.... make one ship type, one set of abilities, no choices... and let people fly this homogenous ship against one another to match skill to skill.

 

Because... as far as I'm concerned over the complaints of gunships, bombers, power-ups, humping satellites, etc... that's the only solution that'll please folks entirely who claim that all they want is a dogfight.

[Altheran]

Many people don't agree that skilled players with tactical abilities, available to everybody, should have this. I still don't see a problem with killing the guy BEFORE he gets it, or focusing on him from a distance. Coordination can overcome this. Enough said

 

I face an 8-man organized team on a regular basis. They focus me. All the time. They usally shut me down.

 

However, when I have DO I can obliterate at least 3 of them depending on how they were ready for my attack.

Just the other day, I picked DO at the begining of the match, and destroyed 4 of them in few seconds. How far I could have gone ? I don't know, my connection broke while the buff was still active and the score was at 4-0.

 

So... teamplay is the counter ? Sure... when I alone won't be able to counter a team with DO.