The BattleZone Winner's Bracket Match 5: Ulic Qel-Droma vs. Plo Koon

[tunewalker]

The REAL Most Powerful Series operates under a system based on reason. Just because I have the ultimate authority does not make them arbitrary, you had to reason with me. I was not some whimsical jester prancing around slapping random names on the list at a whim. So lets stop with the blatant misuse of that particular term.

 

Anyway, I see your point, however your not considering how Ulic is very much orientated towards these abilities. There is a reason he rarely uses Force Powers in lightsaber duels and elsewhere, because he is a martial fighter, he channels his Force Ability into his strength and speed. And this is apparent through his potent Dark Rage and impressive speed feats. Plo Koon being a wielder of the Djem So style likely does something similar.

 

Which is why I made the comparison. Regardless as I said things like Force Valor/Rage and Speed tend to come more naturally than other abilities are require much less refined skill or innate ability, few if any are incapable here.

 

There are not jumps in logic being made here, the facts are quite clear. But yeah, my points are on the table.

 

And so was Master Koon, remember that he to focused on Refined controlled and fast force based attacks while utilizing strength and Timing for his martial skills. He had enough Force strength to use Djem So against a Nightsister embewed Zabarak Savage. We don't know how that fight would have ended had it not been for Savage removing the mask, but the fact that Koon was able to hold off that kind of strength blows means I seriously doubt Droma's ability to power through Koon's defenses with out SERIOUS time being taken to really wear him down.

 

The same I would say for Koon's abiltity to break Droma's defenses, but the advantage I give to Koon comes solely down to his willingness to use force based attacks and their past effectiveness. He is capable of taking what little tiny physical advantage Droma MIGHT have and wearing that away faster then Droma can wear him down by using force based attacks with his saber sequences as he is known to do.

 

And as I have said I have no problem with the way those lists are made they are about as accurate as we could ever hope them to get, but because it is one person no matter how much that person tries to stay unbiased it is an impossibility. I know you do the best you can, as we all do, but that doesn't mean they are 100% unbiased, that is an impossibility for a human being. And yes while he shows more Raw power in Tk and things like speed and Valor and such usually very innate that doesn't mean they are the same level as the TK, the TK could be something the person is innately good with and again being a completely different school of power doesn't help this either. He was considered strong in those areas for his time, so was Koon its 3000 years of difference and they achieved things in extremely similar manners. Can we really say with any kind of certainty that Koon would not have achieved a similar level of success in those time? to me the awnser is no and his duel with Savage is all I need to look at as proof of that. Savage was a physical monter and Form V is all about overpowering your opponent. Koon was able to take the blows of Savage and deal it back the winner of the fight was decided by a cheap and dirty trick nothing else, meaning the fight likely would have lasted longer. Regardless of the outcome being able to match that kind of strength for a period of time is more then enough to believe he can match Droma's strength to make this battle a test of endurance, one Koon can win with the use of TK based attacks in his saber sequences.

[Beniboybling]

Which is what I said, and which is why that Ulic as a superior Force User defeats Koon.

 

The duel with Savage was inconculsive, it could have well ended with Koon being eventually worn down by Savage's superior strength and defeated. We don't know. Regardless Ulic and Savage differ greatly.

 

I've already addressed your other points, but don't pretend that outbursts of raw power are not displays of raw power. I'm not about to get in a pointless debate about why Ulic > Koon because if you don't accept that fact you never will.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

Which is what I said, and which is why that Ulic as a superior Force User defeats Koon.

 

And as I also said, Ulic will fall back on Force Powers if he has too, and he's more than capable of dodging projectiles or protecting himself from a Force Push with his barriers, then Ulic will just hit back harder.

 

And to be honest, Koon doesn't even use the Force that much in his duels.

 

I would say more powerful not superior. Koon has shown a greater willingness to use force bases attacks in saber sequences. And a Push is harder to defend against with just barriers they have to be ready and root themselves in the force to protect against a Push since it is basically a wall of Telekinetic energy hitting you. Its not some one being gripped by the force which is what most passive barriers protect against. Projectiles are also very difficult to defend against in combat. Just because Ulic can lift larger things doesn't mean he can defend against smaller objects being thrown at a fast pace. This is the difference in refined ability and Raw power. While Ulic has the raw power I feel Koon is more refined. Ulic can lift larger things, but Koon can do the smaller with more accuracy and greater level of skill. In combat the skill is where it makes a difference as large objects are likely not to be used or needed for use or countering.

 

That advantage goes to Koon in my book.

 

Edit: actually read the who gets what edge on the initial page it sums it up pretty well in my book.

Edited March 18, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

I would say more powerful not superior. Koon has shown a greater willingness to use force bases attacks in saber sequences. And a Push is harder to defend against with just barriers they have to be ready and root themselves in the force to protect against a Push since it is basically a wall of Telekinetic energy hitting you. Its not some one being gripped by the force which is what most passive barriers protect against. Projectiles are also very difficult to defend against in combat. Just because Ulic can lift larger things doesn't mean he can defend against smaller objects being thrown at a fast pace. This is the difference in refined ability and Raw power. While Ulic has the raw power I feel Koon is more refined. Ulic can lift larger things, but Koon can do the smaller with more accuracy and greater level of skill. In combat the skill is where it makes a difference as large objects are likely not to be used or needed for use or countering.

 

That advantage goes to Koon in my book.

I was talking duelling wise, rage, speed etc.

 

Anyway come back with some examples of Koon doing this and Ulic being weak against it and we'll talk.

 

Nor does Refined > Raw Power. Proof?

 

P.S. Passive barriers protect you against all Force based attacks, including Force Pushes, and often very well.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

I was talking duelling wise, rage, speed etc.

 

Anyway come back with some examples of Koon doing this and Ulic being weak against it and we'll talk.

 

Nor does Refined > Raw Power. Proof?

The Raw power in this case is not that large. And as we already know Koon is more willing to use his powers then Ulic is, we don't know how long it takes Droma to concentrate. The reason he may not use those greater powers in combat may because he cant do it in the midst of battle. Its more likely that the refined will take the advantage over the raw.

 

Edit: Show me one instance of a guy that did nothing to guard himself against a force push and didn't get thrown off his feet.

Edited March 18, 2014 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

Time to play catch-up.

 

Regardless we are talking about duelling ability are we not? The rules are different there. And was it not you yourself that argued Ulic Qel Droma deserved a place on this list? I don't recall hearing any mention of Plo Koon.

 

Probably because Plo Koon isn't a Sith. Unless you're speaking about the Jedi duelists list, then I would say that that is soon to be corrected. Soon meaning after you post that mythical analysis of yours

 

The way I see it, if Ulic is a superior Force User and superior duelist he can outmatch Koon in Djem So through superior strength and skill. Force ability I'd give to Ulic hands down, his abilities are just far more raw and potent, telekinetically and telepathically, in comparison to Koon. Lightsaber ability is a little closer, but the way I see it being the best duelist in the current order and able to go toe-to-toe with Exar Kun are things that seem to outshine Koon's own skill.

 

I don't see Ulic as more powerful. Ulic has not matched the raw power and diversity that Koon has shown in his Force abilities.

 

Concerning Ulic's reputation for his time, I do not see it as a factor. We have no idea where Plo Koon would stand in Ulic's time, or vice-versa. Focus on their skills, not their reputation.

 

Non-negotiable.

[Aurbere]

I think Dark Rage gives Ulic a massive advantage Form V vs Form V, his strength will be many magnitudes greater.

 

We also have to consider the fact that even without a connection to the Force, Ulic was so skilled in lightsaber combat that he could still kill powerful Dark Jedi, which is impressive all by itself.

 

Yet the rage-monster Savage Opress didn't overpower Koon. I don't see Ulic doing any better than Savage unless he goes to the extreme, like Savage did.

 

But good second point.

[Aurbere]

Which is what I said, and which is why that Ulic as a superior Force User defeats Koon.

 

The duel with Savage was inconculsive, it could have well ended with Koon being eventually worn down by Savage's superior strength and defeated. We don't know. Regardless Ulic and Savage differ greatly.

 

I've already addressed your other points, but don't pretend that outbursts of raw power are not displays of raw power. I'm not about to get in a pointless debate about why Ulic > Koon because if you don't accept that fact you never will.

 

You need to prove that Ulic is more powerful before you can call it a fact, yes? As it stands, I highly doubt it, as I noted in the analysis (which I doubt anybody reads).

[tunewalker]

You need to prove that Ulic is more powerful before you can call it a fact, yes? As it stands, I highly doubt it, as I noted in the analysis (which I doubt anybody reads).

 

I did.

[Aurbere]

I did.

 

Thanks!

[Beniboybling]

You need to prove that Ulic is more powerful before you can call it a fact, yes? As it stands, I highly doubt it, as I noted in the analysis (which I doubt anybody reads).

Fine, time to put Koon in his place.

 

Control: Plo Koon's ability to enhance his speed and strength was pretty standard, if not reserved. Ulic on the other hand increased all his powers immensely when in a dark rage and both as a Sith Lord and a Jedi was incredibly agile, dedicating most of his Force power to enhancing his martial abilities.

 

I think its fairly obvious that Ulic is superior in this category.

 

Sense: Koon was an accomplished telepath capable of using mind tricks and reading the minds of weak-willed and/or non-Force Sensitive opponents. Ulic Qel Droma was also capable of mind control and as a Jedi was able to use the light side of the Force to protect himself from the effects of illusions, he was also capable of mind tricks.

 

They are fairly equal in this respect I feel. I wouldn't even say Koon is more refined as Ulic was just as capable of manipulating multiple opponents (if Koon even ever did that) as he was.

 

Alter: Koon was capable of basic Force-based attacks such as pushes which he could use to knock both Force Sensitive and non-Force Sensitive individuals off their feet, and in some cases multiple battle droids in succession. He also used the Force to collapse the roof of a cave. Ulic was capable of Force Choke, and when in a Force Rage was able to unleash waves of dark side energy that could knock multiple Jedi targets of their feet.

 

Again the edge is fairly obvious here, Koon's Force based attacks were pretty basic. Basic Force pushes that either staggered or knocked over battle droids or people, or pushed over a table. Clever, but not very powerful. Against Force Sensitives we have seen him Force Push Asajj Ventress, but I'd regard Ulic's ability, enhanced by the power of the dark side, to unleash waves of energy that can knock down three Jedi to be obviously more impressive.

 

He also collapsed a cave, well Orgus Din was capable of that and he got floored by Darth Angral. Dislodging rocks and letting them fall is not that impressive. Ulic's telekinetic attacks are simply more potent.

 

So Ulic is superior in Control and superior in Alter, and they draw in Sense. Yah, Ulic is stronger.

 

Anyway I think this will be my final post on the matter.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

EDIT: Nvm Edited March 19, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Fine, time to put Koon in his place.

 

Would have been more impressive if you didn't forget a bunch of things.

 

But that's your prerogative, I suppose.

[Beniboybling]

Would have been more impressive if you didn't forget a bunch of things.

 

But that's your prerogative, I suppose.

I included everything comparable that was in your analysis, if I missed anything that's hardly my fault.

 

But as I originally said, I never expected you to be convinced, so it was probably a wasted effort.

[Aurbere]

I included everything comparable that was in your analysis, if I missed anything that's hardly my fault.

 

But as I originally said, I never expected you to be convinced, so it was probably a wasted effort.

 

You have to include everything, not just where they are comparable. That's how we did things in the Most Powerful series, that's how I do things in the analysis.

 

Further, there are some circumstances that you are unaware of regarding their displays of power.

 

Regardless, I wasn't convinced, so let's move on.

[Beniboybling]

You have to include everything, not just where they are comparable. That's how we did things in the Most Powerful series, that's how I do things in the analysis.

 

Further, there are some circumstances that you are unaware of regarding their displays of power.

 

Regardless, I wasn't convinced, so let's move on.

Actually that's not how we did things in the Most Powerful Series, in my comparisons I only ever compared what was comparable. To include feats that aren't comparable is pointless, because they can't be compared.

 

Feel free to share anytime.

 

Like I said, a waste of time, if you don't believe Ulic is more powerful than Koon you never will. That said at the very least I expected a counter argument, but I suppose we can't expect impartiality in every debate.

[fellblade]

I would like to Say Plo Koon - but If I am to be honest, I really do not know enough about Ulic Qel-Droma to make an fair analysis.

 

But From My Understanding - the Exar Kun Ulic fought wasn't prime (probably wasn't prime Ulic either).

However, Prime for Prime did Exar Kun not surpass him to the point where Ulic pretty much admitted that he would no longer be a viable challenge for Exar Kun anymore? As I said - I don't know that much about Ulic so I may have my facts wrong....

[Beniboybling]

I would like to Say Plo Koon - but If I am to be honest, I really do not know enough about Ulic Qel-Droma to make an fair analysis.

 

But From My Understanding - the Exar Kun Ulic fought wasn't prime (probably wasn't prime Ulic either).

However, Prime for Prime did Exar Kun not surpass him to the point where Ulic pretty much admitted that he would no longer be a viable challenge for Exar Kun anymore? As I said - I don't know that much about Ulic so I may have my facts wrong....

This is correct on both accounts, but then we musn't forget that Exar Kun was immensely strong in the Force and a master lightsaber duelist. Even as a Padawan he was able to overcome a Jedi Battlemaster.

 

Basically pre-prime Kun is still deadly, and few are a match for him at the height of his abilities.

[tunewalker]

Fine, time to put Koon in his place.

 

Control: Plo Koon's ability to enhance his speed and strength was pretty standard, if not reserved. Ulic on the other hand increased all his powers immensely when in a dark rage and both as a Sith Lord and a Jedi was incredibly agile, dedicating most of his Force power to enhancing his martial abilities.

 

I think its fairly obvious that Ulic is superior in this category.

 

Sense: Koon was an accomplished telepath capable of using mind tricks and reading the minds of weak-willed and/or non-Force Sensitive opponents. Ulic Qel Droma was also capable of mind control and as a Jedi was able to use the light side of the Force to protect himself from the effects of illusions, he was also capable of mind tricks.

 

They are fairly equal in this respect I feel. I wouldn't even say Koon is more refined as Ulic was just as capable of manipulating multiple opponents (if Koon even ever did that) as he was.

 

Alter: Koon was capable of basic Force-based attacks such as pushes which he could use to knock both Force Sensitive and non-Force Sensitive individuals off their feet, and in some cases multiple battle droids in succession. He also used the Force to collapse the roof of a cave. Ulic was capable of Force Choke, and when in a Force Rage was able to unleash waves of dark side energy that could knock multiple Jedi targets of their feet.

 

Again the edge is fairly obvious here, Koon's Force based attacks were pretty basic. Basic Force pushes that either staggered or knocked over battle droids or people, or pushed over a table. Clever, but not very powerful. Against Force Sensitives we have seen him Force Push Asajj Ventress, but I'd regard Ulic's ability, enhanced by the power of the dark side, to unleash waves of energy that can knock down three Jedi to be obviously more impressive.

 

He also collapsed a cave, well Orgus Din was capable of that and he got floored by Darth Angral. Dislodging rocks and letting them fall is not that impressive. Ulic's telekinetic attacks are simply more potent.

 

So Ulic is superior in Control and superior in Alter, and they draw in Sense. Yah, Ulic is stronger.

 

Anyway I think this will be my final post on the matter.

 

You forgot what I said earlier. When talking combat its not as simple as control, sense, alter. Every single power has to be judged individually as Jedi have shown different affinities for different powers. For your control you start out by saying Plo Koon did normal while Droma did amazing, but that's opinion not actual fact as you showed no feats from either one to actually back up that argument. Koon held off and lengthy power dueled with Savage who was easily as strong as Darth Vader, who has shown more impressive strength feats then most any one. Calling that nothing special is plain wrong.

 

You showed nothing for sense, telepathy takes more then just sense especially mind tricks take a monicum of ALL 3 schools of the Force. It also generally doesn't range in Force strength as much as it does in skill in that ability ALONE using it to judge power is almost worthless.

 

As for the Alter, you have yet to show a single jedi that was unprepared for a Force Push ever resist a Force push (waves are the same). A Force Push/Force wave is a wall of Telekinetic energy that slams against its target. If the person is physically strong enough to overcome the wave they can plow through it, a Force Sensitive can put root themselves in the force essentially countering the Force push with a power of equal strength. But PASSIVE force barriers DO NOT protect against a Force Push. So knocking down 3 unprepared no name Jedi is about the same as knocking down multiple opponents/droids (the droids are physically frailer thus its easier to knock them over, but knocked over more brings it to an equal point).

 

So you haven't really shown Droma as more powerful in any Force Power, note I did not say category as Category at this point is WORTHLESS as different powers even from the same category can have different levels of strength depending on the force user. With this and Koon's more willingness to use his powers in combat (and potentially greater capacity to do so) I believe Koon will wear Droma down and take the edge.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Savage who was easily as strong as Darth Vader

 

Wat? Added words to make post fit.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[tunewalker]

Wat? Added words to make post fit.

 

You are right, I did just make a post with an opinion with out showing feats to prove it that is my bad.

 

Vader was Anakin powered by cybernetics and the Force. Savage was stronger then Anakin before Anakin's Cybernetics. With the added Cybernetics I figured Vader's strength increased as much as what Savages did with the Nightsister magic. Which I felt would bring them to physical equals, though it is possible that Savage was slightly weaker then Vader, but both I would say have shown more impressive feats in strength then Droma. This is enough to at least call Koon Droma's equal in Physical augmentation.

Edited March 19, 2014 by tunewalker

[Wolfninjajedi]

You are right, I did just make a post with an opinion with out showing feats to prove it that is my bad.

 

Vader was Anakin powered by cybernetics and the Force. Savage was stronger then Anakin before Anakin's Cybernetics. With the added Cybernetics I figured Vader's strength increased as much as what Savages did with the Nightsister magic. Which I felt would bring them to physical equals, though it is possible that Savage was slightly weaker then Vader, but both I would say have shown more impressive feats in strength then Droma. This is enough to at least call Koon Droma's equal in Physical augmentation.

 

How do you figure that Savage was stronger than Anakin? What are Savage's strength feats?

[Beniboybling]

You forgot what I said earlier. When talking combat its not as simple as control, sense, alter. Every single power has to be judged individually as Jedi have shown different affinities for different powers. For your control you start out by saying Plo Koon did normal while Droma did amazing, but that's opinion not actual fact as you showed no feats from either one to actually back up that argument. Koon held off and lengthy power dueled with Savage who was easily as strong as Darth Vader, who has shown more impressive strength feats then most any one. Calling that nothing special is plain wrong.

 

You showed nothing for sense, telepathy takes more then just sense especially mind tricks take a monicum of ALL 3 schools of the Force. It also generally doesn't range in Force strength as much as it does in skill in that ability ALONE using it to judge power is almost worthless.

 

As for the Alter, you have yet to show a single jedi that was unprepared for a Force Push ever resist a Force push (waves are the same). A Force Push/Force wave is a wall of Telekinetic energy that slams against its target. If the person is physically strong enough to overcome the wave they can plow through it, a Force Sensitive can put root themselves in the force essentially countering the Force push with a power of equal strength. But PASSIVE force barriers DO NOT protect against a Force Push. So knocking down 3 unprepared no name Jedi is about the same as knocking down multiple opponents/droids (the droids are physically frailer thus its easier to knock them over, but knocked over more brings it to an equal point).

 

So you haven't really shown Droma as more powerful in any Force Power, note I did not say category as Category at this point is WORTHLESS as different powers even from the same category can have different levels of strength depending on the force user. With this and Koon's more willingness to use his powers in combat (and potentially greater capacity to do so) I believe Koon will wear Droma down and take the edge.

OK that's great and all, I never expected you to be convinced but Aurbere kept badgering. However you've made a serious fallacy regarding how Force Barriers work, so lets address that.

 

Passive barriers protect against Force-based attacks, that's what they do. What exactly do you think they do? Force pushes are Force based attacks, correct? So passive barriers obviously protect against Force pushes. This is why if Kenobi for example were to Force push Ventress, she'd fly further than Sidious if he received the same Force Push.

 

If you want an example read Darth Bane, in particular the scenes in the academy where Bane fights with various academy students against whom he attempts to Force Push but their passive barriers negate the impact.

 

This is like bread and butter Force mechanics.

 

P.S. All those feats are taking from Aurbere's analysis or the Jensaarai videos, I assume they have feats to back them up. Your are also incorrect, Force powers can be umbrellaed under categories which is why they exist.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

How do you figure that Savage was stronger than Anakin? What are Savage's strength feats?

 

He dueled Anakin and was capable of taking Anakin off his feat with power blows.

[Beniboybling]

He dueled Anakin and was capable of taking Anakin off his feat with power blows.

Anakin =/= Vader by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm sure Wolf will tell you that.

 

EDIT: I don't think Savage is as strong as Vader, physically yes, but Vader enhances his strength with the Force.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Beniboybling