Tank class dps

[Kovh]

Hi there, I'm back after a long break (pre Hutt Cartel) and looking for some analysis on the viability of PVE dps speced and geared Juggernauts/Powertechs/Assassins towards end game.

 

I'm effectively looking for the class with the most utility to be able to respec tank or dps depending on need.

 

From the forum searching (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=685275) and a quick look on TORparse I understand that Jugg or PT would be bets and that Sins are behind. Am I completely wrong and is someone able to point me in the direction of some info.

 

Cheers.

[MGNMTTRN]

Powertechs and Assassins can always do good DPS in the hands of a good player. Whether a Powertech DPS does well will also depend somewhat upon the fight. And Powertechs have a history of being constantly nerfed, so I'd expect their DPS to go down in the future rather than up.

 

Juggernaut DPS is very strong right now due to the recent buff giving reliable Ravages. If you want to pick the class with the highest DPS from among the tank ACs, I'd say Juggernaut is the highest.

[OMGITSJAD]

The DPS side of things you can compare Jugg/Sin/PT very easily because they are all melee DPS specs so it just comes down to what does the best numbers. The Vengeance spec is pulling excellent numbers while the Powertech's Pyrotech spec isn't pulling as much as the Merc variant while Deception isn't too far behind it.

 

What really matters is how you want your tank to play. The three tanking advanced classes are very different from each other in their playstyles and offer different things that the others do not, however there is not a clear "best tank" for any and all bosses.

 

Juggernaut Tank: Very dependent on defense chance. This is a stat that determines whether or not a move hits or misses you. As you can guess, Juggernauts can be a bit spiky because of this if they some bad defense rolls come up in succession and especially so because their shield chance is average at best and they have to stack absorb(which causes you to lose defense chance) to even get it at a decent number and even when they do it can't reach very far past 45% yet. To combat this, they have a nice full suite of cooldowns including Saber Ward, Endure Pain, Invincible, Saber Reflect, and soon to be buffed: Enraged Defense. This tank plays best when you know the fight and how a boss really works. Using any of your cooldowns at the wrong time can be an increase of damage taken and will leave you in a hard spot if you happen to take a large hit or even leaving you dead later in the fight if one of your cooldowns isn't available for you to use and your healers aren't prepared for it. Basically the best for oh **** moments because you can just pop a cooldown and pray your healers catch up by the time it runs out or just completely mitigate a big hit if you know it's coming.

 

Assassin Tank: Can build defense chance easily while still having a very high shield rating. Can also do the same for absorb. This tank is based on keeping stacks and procs up almost constantly. You need to keep stacks of Dark Ward up to buff your shield chance, stacks of Dark Bulwark up if you need more absorb, and stacks of Dark Protection to increase your damage reduction, which is low compared to the other two tanks. Assassins can be the spikiest tank if played incorrectly but are extremely less spiky if played with skill. This is why Assassins have the bad rap as being the spiky tank that die in two hits. Because most players suck and let them die in two hits because they don't know what to do. Assassins also have a few cooldowns like Overchage Saber which has a heal, Force Shroud and Deflection which require knowledge of damage types to use properly like Saber Reflect, and can of course go in and out of stealth. Also has even more utility in the use of Phase Walk and Force Speed.

 

Powertech Tank: Very stable tank. Usually does not spike because they have the highest armor rating and therefore passive damage reduction out of the 3 tanks. This means that even when a hit gets past a PT's defense chance and shield, they will still take less damage from these than the other tanks, usually. In addition, when they do shield an attack, they have a buff called Heat Blast which increases their absorb rating by an obscene amount, causing them to take little damage from shielded hits while this proc is up. They also have multiple buffs to defense chance in their set bonus and skill tree, so they don't have to sacrifice much defense to get more absorb/shield. Because of this availability of high absorb/defense/damage reduction, however, they have the least valuable cooldowns. Shoulder cannon gives a small on-demand heal, Oil Slick causes an AOE accuracy debuff on bosses in it, Kolto Overload can save you if you get low but has a very long cooldown after use, and Energy Shield which has a decently long cooldown as well as only a damage reduction buff, so you will still take hits and will not be resisting them like Deflection or Saber Ward offers. Powertechs also have decent mobility because of Hydraulic Overrides and they have a pull(Grapple) and a leap(Jet Charge) which Juggs only have a leap and assassins only have a pull(though assassins can use Force Speed as a leap in a sense).

Edited March 6, 2014 by OMGITSJAD

[Kovh]

Thanks so much for the responses. Very helpful stuff

 

I played a Jugg tank right throughout KP and EV HM back in 1.x and loved it. I also levelled a PT alt but this was when Sins were the choice tank. I've never really liked avoidance mechanic tanks and like the idea of a soak tank so my choices really are Jugg or PT.

 

Based on what you have said and everything else I still think the Jugg is still the choice for me - can put out dps when specced/geared to do so (which was not really the case way back when) and is a decent tank with more oh s*** buttons than the PT.

 

OMG - those tank descriptions are really good - I hope you use them in a guide or something :-)

[TACeMossie]

Thanks so much for the responses. Very helpful stuff

 

I played a Jugg tank right throughout KP and EV HM back in 1.x and loved it. I also levelled a PT alt but this was when Sins were the choice tank. I've never really liked avoidance mechanic tanks and like the idea of a soak tank so my choices really are Jugg or PT.

 

Based on what you have said and everything else I still think the Jugg is still the choice for me - can put out dps when specced/geared to do so (which was not really the case way back when) and is a decent tank with more oh s*** buttons than the PT.

 

OMG - those tank descriptions are really good - I hope you use them in a guide or something :-)

 

Hey, PT dps has its advantages...

 

Comparing the best DPS options of each class

 

Juggernaught - Vengeance

Powertech - Pyro

Assasin - Madness

 

On a dummy fight, the juggernaught is about 10% above the other 2, with Pyro Powertechs on the bottom (only just). But the thing is, this isn't always the case in a real fight.

 

Lets look at some raid examples - Ill use the Dread Operations for these:

 

NEFRA - Nefra is basically a tank + Spank dummy fight, so we can ignore the dps difference here. Though PTs will do a little better here than on a dummy because they will have slightly more resource regeneration. The Juggernaught will win. PTs will come second because of the passive they have.

 

DRAXUS - also a bit guardian favoured in vengeance vs pyro, though a PT can respec to Advanced Prototype which is a much more superior AoE spec in comparison to Rage on Juggs - which is much better for this fight. Sins will once again suck, but somehow work slightly.

 

GROB'THOK - Definately the PT wins here, because of the excessive adds if going for the AoE spec, and the immunity to the bouncing from pipe smash in either spec (+ the bouncing around will constantly interupt Ravage on the jugg, the primary source of damage). Once again, sins suck.

 

CORRUPTOR ZERO - Tons of adds, AP PT wins again. And Sins lose again due to sucking (see a pattern?)

 

BRONTES - its about even until the last phase, where brontes refuses to stop moving. So master strike doesn't work here, so PTs win here. Im gonna stop mentioning sins though, because they suck.

 

BESTIA - Tons of adds, so AP PTs can be better here, though some people prefer to go Pyro. If not going for AoE options, the Jugg wins here, but if you are the PTs win.

 

TYRANS - the constant bouncing of the boss everywhere means that its better to use a VG for dps because 10m attacks > 4m attacks.

 

CALPHAYUS - This fight needs burst damage, not sustained damage. And PTs are the king of burst damage... well excluding sins, but their burst relies on leaving combat. So the PTs are the definate winner for this fight.

 

RAPTUS - Force Exhaustion can be annoying when it comes in on your ravages, but other than that a guardian will be better for this fight.

 

DREAD COUNCIL - A PT DPS can be the raptus kiter, and is the best class for the job. A Vengeance Jugg can not. There is a guaranteed spot for Pyro PT here, desptie the Jugg having a higher DPS potential. So I leave it to you which one to choose...

 

So as you can see, despite the Jugg being a better DPS class, the PT can not only keep up with, but also beats the juggs in multiple relevant bossfights right now. So with that info, I leave you.

 

Also Pyro DPS is fun. I recommend at least making a PT alt just for that.

Edited March 7, 2014 by TACeMossie

[Methoxa]

If i understand you correctly you want to be a tank with the highest possible dps. If you decide for Juggernaut vengeance tanking will be hard bc your dmg income is bigger than if you were full immortal, your tps are worse, you wont have group beneficials ( sonic barrier for the whole grp) and you wont have as many defensive cd's.

 

This might work in Sm's of the actual 55 content, but will fail in hm. Other dps will steal aggro all the time not only in the first 20 seconds. Besides full immortal juggernaut can do 1500 dps on nefra hm/nm so why roll vengeance having far worse defensive stats more dmg income and worse tps for 300--500 dps more? A vengeance juggernaut in full def gear wont get more than 2k dps i think ( never tried it actually). Same goes for the other classes. Either play Tank or dps but never mix both together, its guranteed to fail

[Kovh]

If i understand you correctly you want to be a tank with the highest possible dps. If you decide for Juggernaut vengeance tanking will be hard bc your dmg income is bigger than if you were full immortal, your tps are worse, you wont have group beneficials ( sonic barrier for the whole grp) and you wont have as many defensive cd's.

 

This might work in Sm's of the actual 55 content, but will fail in hm. Other dps will steal aggro all the time not only in the first 20 seconds. Besides full immortal juggernaut can do 1500 dps on nefra hm/nm so why roll vengeance having far worse defensive stats more dmg income and worse tps for 300--500 dps more? A vengeance juggernaut in full def gear wont get more than 2k dps i think ( never tried it actually). Same goes for the other classes. Either play Tank or dps but never mix both together, its guranteed to fail

 

Hi, thanks for the response.

 

Sorry my original question was a little wordy and confusing. I really wanted to know which of the three tank classes is the most viable as a DPS when specced that way (ie Veng Jugg, AP/Pyro PT etc). I want to tank but when there isn't a tank spot available I still want to be able to decent DPS with a respec and a change of gear.

 

Having a long history tanking in MMO's I would not dream of tanking without being specced to do so.

[Methoxa]

All of the three classes are viable dds although juggernauts are parsing a bit higher

[Omophorus]

Hi, thanks for the response.

 

Sorry my original question was a little wordy and confusing. I really wanted to know which of the three tank classes is the most viable as a DPS when specced that way (ie Veng Jugg, AP/Pyro PT etc). I want to tank but when there isn't a tank spot available I still want to be able to decent DPS with a respec and a change of gear.

 

Having a long history tanking in MMO's I would not dream of tanking without being specced to do so.

 

The skill floor for Assassins in PVE in general is the highest of the three classes.

 

A bad Assassin tank is substantially worse than a bad Juggernaut or bad Powertech, and it's easier to be bad at Assassin than either Juggy or PT. On the upside, a very-well-played Assassin tank has mitigation on par with either other tank AC, the easiest time putting up the highest DPS (not that tank DPS is ever anything to write home about), the easiest time with threat, and the most ability to use properties of the class to trivialize mechanics. In other words, in the right hands Assassin tanks are extremely viable.

 

A bad Assassin DPS is horribad compared to everything else in the game. A very good Assassin is still lagging behind. An exceptional player can put up good numbers, but that same player could put up even better numbers by swapping to any other AC.

 

In a nutshell for PVE - Assassins are fantastic tanks in the right hands, and currently forgettable DPS no matter what you do. If off-spec DPS is important to you, consider Juggy or PT. Especially Juggy.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Omophorus

[Vid-szhite]

Powertechs and Assassins can always do good DPS in the hands of a good player. Whether a Powertech DPS does well will also depend somewhat upon the fight. And Powertechs have a history of being constantly nerfed, so I'd expect their DPS to go down in the future rather than up.

 

Juggernaut DPS is very strong right now due to the recent buff giving reliable Ravages. If you want to pick the class with the highest DPS from among the tank ACs, I'd say Juggernaut is the highest.

 

Powertech is in need of buffs to sustained, but is in an awkward spot because of their prowess in pvp. I doubt they would be nerfed again. Jugg has the opposite problem - in PvE they are among the best, but in PvP they compete with burst monsters with stealth and escapes.

[slafko]

Since my main char is a shadow tank, I'm going to say - well - shadow tank.

 

When needed, I will switch to Infiltration DPS. It's pretty easy for me to switch since I'm always using Nadia as active companion and gearing in DPS is my first priority after getting geared as tank. And although my DPS output will not be near our best damage dealers, I'm good enough.

 

But what I really, *really*, like is the utility the Shadow provides. There's a stealth rez available and I can make a difference either by rezing a healer or enabling them to save combat rez for a more dire emergency.

 

The other awesome thing is the taunt. Saved a few raid wipes by giving the healers a chance to rez at least one of the tanks by taunting the boss and willingly sacrificing to buy several precious seconds. Taunt, Resilience, medpack, stealth, aoe taunt, medpack, Force Speed to GTFOutta Dodge and the rezzed tank can take over. gg

[RawlsRorty]

Slightly different question:

How much dps does each tank do while tanking? Which tank puts out the most and least single-target dps while tanking?

[Vid-szhite]

Slightly different question:

How much dps does each tank do while tanking? Which tank puts out the most and least single-target dps while tanking?

 

Least by far is the Juggernaut tank. Loads of great defense cooldowns, but almost nonexistent damage. This is because Juggernaut spec trees increase damage either by doubling the output of otherwise lackluster abilities, whether by cooldown reset or auto-crits, or adding new abilities entirely. Jugg tanks get none of that. Well, maybe Crushing Blow at the end of the tree, but that's about it.

 

I wouldn't know about who does the most damage. None of them really do great damage, though if I had to hazard a guess, it'd probably be Assassin.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Vid-szhite

[TACeMossie]

Least by far is the Juggernaut tank. Loads of great defense cooldowns, but almost nonexistent damage. This is because Juggernaut spec trees increase damage either by doubling the output of otherwise lackluster abilities, whether by cooldown reset or auto-crits, or adding new abilities entirely. Jugg tanks get none of that. Well, maybe Crushing Blow at the end of the tree, but that's about it.

 

I wouldn't know about who does the most damage. None of them really do great damage, though if I had to hazard a guess, it'd probably be Assassin.

 

Yeah tanks aren't supposed to do good DPS. The 'dummy' parse of tanks is nefra, because of all their procs that depend on being attacked, and even then they have a hard time getting more than 1500 dps.

 

Guardians are technically the weakest at Tank DPS, but they also receive tanking benefits from using Might Hilts/Armorings and power crystals (they make blade barricades and focused defense better) so that makes up for it there for them. To an extent.

Vanguards are in the middle. They have to choose though between DPS from Ion Pulse spam, or absorb rating with Hammer Shots spam (Power Screens/Energy Blast)

And then there's shadows, with their damn auto-crit project that can get +50% surge from using Force Potency, and then they also get their TK Throw to be painfully strong and provide damage reduction, and they get maul and...

yeah.

Shadow Tanks...

 

Oh and Juggernaut Tanks get their damage from Crushing Blow, Free use of Smash/Force Scream, and excessive spamming of Retaliation which is about as strong as a second auto-attack for 1 rage available every 3 auto-attacks.

Edited April 15, 2014 by TACeMossie