Bloodmark/Searpoint feedback

[Gavin_Kelvar]

The crying about the Comet Breaker was all true. It's still garbage.

 

Not to mention the extent of providing electronic warfare support consists of using your support abilities when they're off cooldown. Except for those moments when you figure out when/where best to employ your support abilities In all other regards you'll be functioning as a regular fighter. As soon as you activate the ability you've performed the extent of your E.W. function and revert to being a regular fighter. Thus need to have the combat capabilities to hold your own against Type 1 & 2 stablemates. Giving them components that are lackluster, virtually identical (see snap turn and Koiogran turn), or redundant with the roles filled by existing ships is not conducive to giving them the offensive strengths necessary to hold their own in a fight.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Gavin_Kelvar

[Ramalina]

The problem many of you have with lack of frontline combat parity is that you're considering the new ships as standalone frontline combat ships.

 

That is not what they're for.

 

The question is, if it's used well, in a group of 4-6 other ships working together, does that group perform as well as a group of similar size and composition but with a normal scout or strike instead of a command version.

 

It may be hard to tell in practice, because any group with enough teamwork to really properly employ a command ship is probably going to be crushing the other side so badly that you wouldn't be able to tell that there's a difference.

[Nemarus]

The question is, if it's used well, in a group of 4-6 other ships working together, does that group perform as well as a group of similar size and composition but with a normal scout or strike instead of a command version.

 

It may be hard to tell in practice, because any group with enough teamwork to really properly employ a command ship is probably going to be crushing the other side so badly that you wouldn't be able to tell that there's a difference.

 

That's a very good point. It seems like this ship is set up such that it's only going to help pre-mades further... and they as someone who always flies with guildies, I can say that we don't need any help winning except in those rare moments when we're against another premade.

 

And to the point someone else made ... these "support ships" are really only doing support once every minute are so. The rest of the time they are just mediocre fighters.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

The problem many of you have with lack of frontline combat parity is that you're considering the new ships as standalone frontline combat ships.

 

That is not what they're for.

 

The question is, if it's used well, in a group of 4-6 other ships working together, does that group perform as well as a group of similar size and composition but with a normal scout or strike instead of a command version.

 

It may be hard to tell in practice, because any group with enough teamwork to really properly employ a command ship is probably going to be crushing the other side so badly that you wouldn't be able to tell that there's a difference.

 

The one problem is that a support ship's support systems shouldn't be allowing a group to function just as well as they would've with a regular Type 1 or 2 instead. In such a case the support system is acting to compensate for the Type 3 being the weak link and, when the support ability/abilities are on cooldown, a group with a Type 3 would have inferior combat capabilities to a similarly sized group with all Type 1 or 2s.

 

Which defeats the whole point of having a support/E.W. craft. A group with a Type 3 should be superior to a similarly sized group of only Type 1 & 2 striker/scouts, not where the support abilities are what prevent a group with a Type 3 from having inferior combat capabilities to a group without a Type 3. They need the components that put their combat capabilities on par with Type 1 & 2s without using support abilities.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Gavin_Kelvar

[Verain]

I just don't think the comparison to the Comet Breaker is appropriate. Comet breaker was basically the good gunship with several good components deleted. Once they added the directional shield, he got a whole lot better.

 

These ships are starting off with a whole lot of interesting stuff. Repair drones, repair probes, instant cast engine disable, 20% accuracy group buff... stuff like that we don't have in game now.

 

It could be too weak. But it could also be too strong. Most of that stuff is just totally new. I'll be all crying if they are bad ships, but right now they don't really strike me like that at all.

[Kuciwalker]

I just don't think the comparison to the Comet Breaker is appropriate. Comet breaker was basically the good gunship with several good components deleted. Once they added the directional shield, he got a whole lot better.

 

No way.

[Verain]

Oh, he's MUCH better than when he had fortress and feedback as his options. A cometbreaker has substantial shields- like 50% more- when compared to a type 1.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

Oh, he's MUCH better than when he had fortress and feedback as his options. A cometbreaker has substantial shields- like 50% more- when compared to a type 1.

 

With the Large reactor, Doc (shield power & regen buffs) and Directional Shields the Comment Breaker has 2380 shield power.

 

The Quarrel with Large Reactor, Doc, and Feedback Shields (which I don't believe have a shield power penalty) the total shield strength is 2210.

 

That's at least according to Dulfy's build calc.

[Verain]

With the Large reactor, Doc (shield power & regen buffs) and Directional Shields the Comment Breaker has 2380 shield power.

 

It has that on each arc at neutral. What you can do, of course, is put them double forward or double backwards- as a gunship, this is a lot more useful than you might expect! Now I don't think it's exactly DOUBLE, but it's pretty damned near- it's well over 50% what the other gets.

 

The Quarrel with Large Reactor, Doc, and Feedback Shields (which I don't believe have a shield power penalty) the total shield strength is 2210.

 

Who cares? That build is food. FOOD! Both ships can take Feedback Shields, and have the same armor. But they suck if they do.

 

What a Quarrel takes is Distortion Field. That is the only option. With that and your settings you have 1870 shield. Meanwhile, with your settings, the Comet Breaker has 2380. That's around a 30% difference just baseline.

 

 

Of course, disto is better than directional. But both are competitive and good components, which the Comet Breaker lacked entirely.

[Altheran]

I have a gripe with these new ships (Scout and Strike) : they're going full support.

 

They got support-type systems, fine. But why the secondary weapon options are also going full support ? Why unallowing them to have regular offensive weapons ?

 

If I want to go full support, I'd play a bomber. Well, I may be willing to trade huge hull and shields for mobility...

But still, I expect that support-type ship coming from offensive type ship classes would keep at least a bit of offensiveness. Like hybrids.

 

When I look at secondary weapons, Ion, EMP, Thermite, Proton, none of them provide enough offensive versatility.

Proton and Thermite are too opportunistic and mostly need to coupled with something else to work efficiently.

Ion, EMP, none of them can really be called offensive weapons since they're not damage oriented, but effect oriented.

I think that they should get the secondary weapons that are almost trademarks of their class, namely Rocket Pods for Scout, Concussive Missile for Strike.

 

PS : I also think that Ion Missile should remain a Pike/Quell exclusivity so that they keep at least one exclusivity like nearly all ships have (and these new ships will have theirs) and so that Ionic weapons all remain the trade mark of specific ships. But that's another matter.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

It has that on each arc at neutral. What you can do, of course, is put them double forward or double backwards- as a gunship, this is a lot more useful than you might expect! Now I don't think it's exactly DOUBLE, but it's pretty damned near- it's well over 50% what the other gets.

 

 

 

Who cares? That build is food. FOOD! Both ships can take Feedback Shields, and have the same armor. But they suck if they do.

 

What a Quarrel takes is Distortion Field. That is the only option. With that and your settings you have 1870 shield. Meanwhile, with your settings, the Comet Breaker has 2380. That's around a 30% difference just baseline.

 

 

Of course, disto is better than directional. But both are competitive and good components, which the Comet Breaker lacked entirely.

 

Fair enough. I just wanted to point out that it was possible to achieve close to the Comet Breaker's shield strength depending on component selection. I forget whether it was you or someone else but arguably that's the fault of of having every ship in a class have carbon copy base stats.

 

Anyhow you raise good points on the merits of directional shield which is one of the components I do like on the Type 3 striker (honestly I'd love to try Charged Plating as it looks like it could have great potential on that fighter but I'd hesitate to do so until they sort things out with armor piercing being on too many weapons).

 

I have a gripe with these new ships (Scout and Strike) : they're going full support.

 

They got support-type systems, fine. But why the secondary weapon options are also going full support ? Why unallowing them to have regular offensive weapons ?

 

If I want to go full support, I'd play a bomber. Well, I may be willing to trade huge hull and shields for mobility...

But still, I expect that support-type ship coming from offensive type ship classes would keep at least a bit of offensiveness. Like hybrids.

 

I actually kinda think that there's potential for the Type 3 striker to be a good bomber killer using proton torpedoes + Remote Slicing. Right now I think Remote slicing is kinda weak as it barely manages to drain the shield power one shot from rapid fire blasters would do but I think if they buffed it to be more respectable (maybe have the shield drain equivalent of a BLC shot for example) there would be quite a bit of potential for being used to shut down bombers as it can be upgraded to disable all/almost all of the abilities bombers use to deploy mines/drones. The ability to disable a craft's engine ability also has a lot of potential but I'm not sure how it will mesh with the upcoming nerf to engine abilities (mainly how will it affect the engine ability if it is on CD?)

 

Again I see a lot of potential in the concept of the Type 3s I just think that right now they lack the combat capacity to excel and be a real threat. As you said they're from the classes that make up the offensive backbone of a team and so should bring enough offensive capabilities to hold their own against the Type 1 & 2s of their class.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Gavin_Kelvar

[The_Raven_Lord]

Well...

 

I think I should address the stock build of the Bloodmark.

 

Primary Weapon: Light Laser Cannon... ok, that's fine, whatever.

 

Secondary Weapon: Ion Missiles, whatever.

 

Systems: Sensor Beacon... Are you kidding me right now? The ship is designed for the two shiny new "fields" and it doesn't even start with one of them?!

 

Shields: Shield Projector... well... if you want to make sure that the first time most people fly this thing will also be the last time... perfect choice!

 

Engines: Power Dive... see Shields.

 

Armor: Reinforced Armor... whatever... "meh" but whatever.

 

Capacitor: Frequency Capcitor with an already high frequency weapon choice... I'm sure this will send a vvery good message about how to properly build a fighter.

 

Reactor: Large Reactor. Alright, nothing wrong with this. Nothing right with it either though.

 

Sensors: Communications Sensors. Whatevver... these things are a matter of taste anyway.

 

 

In my opinion, this is par for the course as far as the design of the new scout goes. Almost everything about it is junk, so let's go ahead and slap on all the really bad components that people don't use or like in the game right now.

 

If it were up to me, which is isn't, but if it were... these ships would get a total redesign, but since we all know it won't. Here's what I suggest.

 

Start it of with Tensor Field... that's the only buff that's really worth something anyway.

 

Use Snap or Koigran turn as the stock engine ability, there's enough blood and wreckage on the asteroids without an army of new comers going splat and every time they hit their Engine Ability.

 

For the capacitor, use damage or range. Frequency is sort of pointless on Light Laser Cannons.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

 

For the capacitor, use damage or range. Frequency is sort of pointless on Light Laser Cannons.

 

Well that can be a good capacitor as it increases the DPS more than the damage capacitor. It really depends on the pilot's aim. If they have bad aim then frequency will just cause them to run out of power faster of course. Unlike Rapids light lasers at least have the base damage to hurt the enemy, I'd be inclined that with rapids you need the damage capacitor to compensate for their horribly weak damage.

[Kuciwalker]

stuff comparing the shield

 

None of this matters, because the Quarrel has ion and the Comet Breaker doesn't.